Quote from: cranebump;763915Sort of like the "just business" aspect of the Mafia in movies--there are some lines you don't cross.

And I can grant you the "media exception", but in reality there's no such loyalty.  Did you see that De Niro movie 'The Family'?  The real mob seems more like that concept.  Rat on each other when you get jammed up, go into hiding, someone tries to find and kill the rat.

Quote from: Bill;763886There can be quite a few reason not to kill

Setting a good example is huge.

Not wanting to kill because each time you do it, becomes easier and more familiar. You risk becoming what you oppose.

Ending a life is a big deal; not something you do for convenience or as a casual act.

You might be wrong about the innocence or guilt of the alleged criminal.

A superhero may feel they apprehend criminals, but society judges them.

Compassion; some people, superhuman or not, can't bring themselves to kill

Another one is the law.

A few cities now have some real life "superheroes" who fight crime. Some tolerate this as long as the vigilante doesnt harm anyone. Theres a video of one fellow who was breaking up some drunks who got out of hand. and the cops were sitting across the street watching. Other cities arent even remotely tolerant.

So if you start offing people the cops may not be so lenient next time you are framed for some crime you didnt commit.

Also the problem of emulation. What if the cops start emulating the Punisher and offing criminals or protesters, etc? Ye ol death spiral.

Or you get a setting like Justice League Gods & Men. Squadron supreme, etc.

Quote from: mcbobbo;764346You're right up until this point.  But after Batman defeats the escaped Joker he has a bigger choice to make.  If he repeats the same mistake, handing the Joker over to people who can't contain him, he bears the responsibility of that decision.

"Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me."

Punisher 2099 had his own prison and execution room. Some would be let go eventually. One though he kept locked up till he was legal adult age and THEN executed him horrifically for serial murders.

And. Lets not forget that Batman originally killed criminals.

Marvel has explored the problem of incarcerating powered individuals the most with a couple of prisons ranging from the Vault to Phym's shrunken prison.

Quote from: Omega;764442Punisher 2099 had his own prison and execution room. Some would be let go eventually. One though he kept locked up till he was legal adult age and THEN executed him horrifically for serial murders.

Punisher isn't a hero, not a superhero. He's an antihero at best, and if he wasn't so popular and kinda locked in his own timeline, I am sure he'd end up being a villain already, with some superhero group finally taking him out as "going too far."

Quote from: tenbones;763977I run a semi-"realistic" FASERIP game. I've largely thrown out the Karma system and use Aspects with my own Karma=Fate points system to modify FASERIP rules. As an example I'll allow a player to blow three Karma points to add +1CS to a Stat/Power to go beyond his normal limits.

That said - it allows the PC's to be heroes/anti-heroes and villains based purely on their Aspects and allows the modern moral ambiguities to exist as the PC's desire.

...

Good stuff!  I'd be interested in seeing more about how you handled the Karma = Fate system.

Quote from: Rincewind1;764443Punisher isn't a hero, not a superhero. He's an antihero at best, and if he wasn't so popular and kinda locked in his own timeline, I am sure he'd end up being a villain already, with some superhero group finally taking him out as "going too far."

The 2099 Punisher was more akin to a superhero at first. But 2099 had a more lethal Shadowrun tone to it and the body count racked up really fast before Marvel pulled another New Universe ending and killed off 75% of the characters, often pointlessly.

I found a document called FateRip by Blue Tyson - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rmk-3fX2JG3tJPJrtTnhWatT8gcQfGf4e_nqK-4lNz0/edit

And I took elements I liked while cleaving as close to FASERIP's intents as possible and



Gaining Karma
Heroes start each game with a Karma Pool of 0; they have to rely on their wits and their own abilities. As the story unfolds, the heroes may earn Karma by facing various challenges, as follows:

-By defeating opponents of appropriate power, or protecting others that are in threat by others. This includes saving the lives of others, stopping crimes etc. Presumably this is if the character is a hero. If the character is a villain, then they will gain karma for doing things that further their goals. This does not necessarily include killing - even villains aren't outright murderers for its own sake, but they might kill in order to further a larger goal.

-Villains gain karma by furthering their nefarious goals. The more convoluted the plot, the more karma they make along the way. This does not mean villains gain karma *just* for killing people. Villains have goals - but they may gain karma for causing secondary issues along the way for their opponents. This is why villains monologue and have Goldbergian death-traps...

-Anti-Heroes gain karma for the same things Heroes do - however they follow a code that allows them to do things no self-respecting hero would. The "code" needs to be sorted out with the GM via having Aspects appropriate to that code. Anti-Heroes gain half the popularity rewards normal heroes get. They gain double the popularity losses.

-If defeated by a villain in some meaningful way, the hero gains a point of Karma. This includes being Taken Out or captured by a villain, or allowing a villain to escape from the hero in some way. In some cases, the Gamemaster may choose to automatically capture or Take Out a hero, in the form of an ambush or inescapable trap, giving the player a point of Karma in exchange.
When the hero fulfills or deals with a personal obligation, he gains a point of Karma. This obligation must demand something of the hero; just going to work and paying the bills doesn't count. If the hero rushes across town after fighting a villain to make a lunch date, or to visit a sick relative in the hospital, he gets a point of Karma.

-If the Gamemaster invokes one of the hero's Subplots or Weaknesses (see below), the hero gains a point of Karma. For example, if a hero is vulnerable to water attacks and a villain rips up a water main to use it as a weapon against the hero, he gets a point of Karma if the attack is successful. If a hero is claustrophobic and panics while buried under rubble, the hero gets a Karma point. When a Subplot or Weakness is invoked, the player has the option of spending a Karma point (assuming the hero has any) to ignore the effects, but doesn't gain any Karma when doing so.

-If a player goes along with the GM to further the plot in some way, the player's hero gets a Karma point. For example, if a villain mind controls a hero and the player chooses not to resist but allows his character to be controlled, then the hero gets a Karma point (which you know is going to be used to later to pound the mind-controller into the ground).

- Finally, if a player roleplays especially well, coming up with an idea or whatever that everyone agrees is cool, the GM may award that player's hero a Karma point. This includes "master plan insurance," in which the GM awards a Karma point to a player who comes up with a particularly clever plan, which the player can use to help ensure the plan's success. This does not have to spontaneous – it can be the completion of a mid-term or long-term goal.
Using Karma

Players can spend their heroes' earned Karma points in various ways during the game:

-A player can spend a Karma point to automatically succeed at any task with a difficulty rank of Excellent or a +25 to the roll if character's relevant ability, whichever is higher and Remarkable or higher rank. The hero achieves a competent success (Green result) on that task and no roll is needed.

-A player can spend a Karma point to increase the result of an Action roll by one color-shift. Green results become Yellow, etc. This roll can be one the player makes or one the GM makes that directly affects the player's character. A White result is still a failure.

- A player can spend a Karma point to allow his hero to perform a power stunt. After performing a power stunt successfully three times, it becomes a permanent part of the hero's powers (no longer requiring Karma to use).

- A player can spend two Karma points to turn all damage the hero takes in a single round into a Stun Result (1-10 rounds). This is subject to the GM's approval. Some results, such as Galactus eating your planet with you on it are beyond the benefits of a single karma point.

- A player can spend three Karma points to achieve an automatic +3 CS on an Action (OR increase the intensity of a Power/Stat Rank Result by +1 CS).

- A player can spend one or more Karma points to "edit" the circumstances of a scene or situation in the character's favor. For example, a useful item might be close at hand, the circumstances just right for a particular plan, the hero knows someone who can help him out, and so forth. The GM determines the Karma cost for a particular edit, ranging from one point for minor changes to as many as three points for significant alterations.

-A player can spend a Karma point to temporarily ignore the effects of a Subplot or Weakness. The GM decides how long the Karma point keeps the Weakness at bay. For some Weaknesses, one Karma point is enough to ignore that Weakness for the rest of the scene. For others, a Karma point may only keep the effects at bay for a moment (about one combat round).

That's basically the core of it. I have a separate list for Karma expenditures to raise stats, but it's a work in progress. Usually we just wing it at Stat/Power rank round down to the nearest increment of 10, with an in-game justification to raise it to the next rank.

Thanks!  I'm going to have to give that a look.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;763953That's...actually really awesome. One of my "down the line" projects for this same universe involves a Villain With Standards who gets spurred into action against a legally untouchable Complete Monster.

It was the first thing that came to my mind when I heard the OP.  Why don't villains go after each other?  Heroes are for the most part, predictable.  I would think villains have at least screwed each other over as much as the heroes have to them.  They have at least as much to gain going after each other than going after the heroes and villains are even less likely to band together to stop one another.  Would a hero even feel the need to stop it?  Ra's al Ghul going after the Joker.  Dr. Doom going after Loki.  The only thing I would like more would be a crossover classic like Galactus vs. Mogo.  No rules.  Severe consequences.  Thieves stealing from thieves, megalomaniacs stealing/eliminating other megalomaniacs, even just a lone entity acting out of personal reasons, etc...  I would buy that comic book series.

Quote from: Gunslinger;765640It was the first thing that came to my mind when I heard the OP.  Why don't villains go after each other?  Heroes are for the most part, predictable.  I would think villains have at least screwed each other over as much as the heroes have to them.  They have at least as much to gain going after each other than going after the heroes and villains are even less likely to band together to stop one another.  Would a hero even feel the need to stop it?  Ra's al Ghul going after the Joker.  Dr. Doom going after Loki.  The only thing I would like more would be a crossover classic like Galactus vs. Mogo.  No rules.  Severe consequences.  Thieves stealing from thieves, megalomaniacs stealing/eliminating other megalomaniacs, even just a lone entity acting out of personal reasons, etc...  I would buy that comic book series.

That's essentially Superior Foes of Spider-Man, albeit at the opposite end of the power spectrum from Galactus vs. Mogo.

I think Villain on Villain turns into a gang warfare sort of thing with lots of innocent bystanders etc. getting hurt. This would attract more attention from the heroes.

I would think a Villain posing as a hero who more or less took what he found from the bad guys would be an interesting story concept. Sort of robin hood who gave to himself, money, tech, secret bases etc.

That may work better.


Also as has been said elsewhere in the thread players getting the whole being a hero thing is hard. I ran a DC heroes game, knowing it was to fail, with one player who blew up a dog cause it might have been possessed by aliens invaders. He was right but showed no remorse and basically said I'm rich I'll buy another dog. No sympathy or concern for the poor kid and family who owned the dog. Was some sad ass heroics.

He was mirroring Tony stark as a character and basically though Tony would have blow it off the same way. It wasn't the act but the not given a crap later that was completely out of genre. Oh well. Knew he wouldn't get it but they said run what you want so I did

Villain on Villain is very much part of Marvel and DC's traditions.

But in terms of scale - they're usually streetlevel sort of fare. Unless you have large organizations hellbent on waging war.

Green Goblin, Kingpin, Hammerhead, The Owl, all the rest of the Maggia family, The Rose - all are villains that hire other villains to do their dirty work at odds with everyone else.

Same in DC - hell all of Batman's major villains are crime-bosses in their own right. Joker, Scarecrow, Penguin, Riddler, Two-Face, Ebon Skull, etc. And they're all at war with one another too.

You can have tons of long-term campaigning dealing with these guys assuming your power-level of your heroes is right. If it's a bit higher, then you'll have to be going for Hydra, Royal Flush, Thunderbolts, AIM, which is only a hop skip anna jump to Legion of Doom, Cadmus, and really big nasties that put the kibosh on anyone in their way.