Supers are everywhere these days, on the telly, in the cinema, in bookstores and of course, in RPGs.
Now, having grown up with them, and liking the genre in general, i just can't see it as a British genre. It's American through and through isn't it?
It's the American dream given a fantasy makeover.
We British don't have a dream, we've been places, got the t-shirt and retreated into cynicism and world-wearyness -as most empires past their sell-by date seem to do.
What would the supers genre look like through a British lens?
Alternatively, you can tell me why i'm talking bollocks.
Quote from: One Horse Town;470487Supers are everywhere these days, on the telly, in the cinema, in bookstores and of course, in RPGs.
Now, having grown up with them, and liking the genre in general, i just can't see it as a British genre. It's American through and through isn't it?
It's the American dream given a fantasy makeover.
We British don't have a dream, we've been places, got the t-shirt and retreated into cynicism and world-wearyness -as most empires past their sell-by date seem to do.
What would the supers genre look like through a British lens?
Alternatively, you can tell me why i'm talking bollocks.
If you consider Being Human versus Twilight, you can imagine British superheroes being slower-moving, more morally conflicted/ambiguous / angst-ridden and definitely less sparkly. Not so much superman minus the laser beams from the eyes as Batman driving a Subaru Imprezza, or possibly even a Skoda Octavia.
I guess the archetypal British superhero would kind of be a James Bond, or for an alternative, Red-Dwarf-style take, an Austin Powers. If they did have actual superpowers, they would probably be very subdued.
Having said all which, I know almost nothing about the superheroes genre; there may be British superheroes out there, they just don't come to mind.
Quote from: One Horse Town;470487What would the supers genre look like through a British lens?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misfits_(TV_series) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misfits_(TV_series))
The Watchmen.
Also, Animal Man.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;470490The Watchmen.
Also, Animal Man.
American-esque heroes, British invasion.
Quote from: One Horse Town;470487Supers are everywhere these days, on the telly, in the cinema, in bookstores and of course, in RPGs.
Now, having grown up with them, and liking the genre in general, i just can't see it as a British genre. It's American through and through isn't it?
It's the American dream given a fantasy makeover.
We British don't have a dream, we've been places, got the t-shirt and retreated into cynicism and world-wearyness -as most empires past their sell-by date seem to do.
What would the supers genre look like through a British lens?
Alternatively, you can tell me why i'm talking bollocks.
Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Who
No Heroics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Heroics) is the perfect example of British Super Heroes.
They mostly hang around at a pub. I thought it was fucking brilliant and I really wish a second season was commissioned for it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;470487What would the supers genre look like through a British lens?
Alternatively, you can tell me why i'm talking bollocks.
Why not look at native British superhero comics? For a brief overview, there's
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/e/erauk.htm
It's a fair tell that 2000 A.D. (including Judge Dredd) and The Adventures of Luther Arkwright eclipsed most traditional superheroes including Captain Britain. Still, there were a fair number of superheroes in tights as well. It depends how you look at things what are superheroes.
From 2000 AD, I always enjoyed Zenith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenith_(comics)) as another good British take on super heroes. I still have those comics hanging around here somewhere.
It's been a while since I read my copies of Planetary, but I seem to remember an issue where they go to a funeral in London. I think Warren Ellis uses that issue to discuss the differences between the way the U.K. sees superheroes and how the U.S. sees them. I'll need to go back and read the comic again to be sure about this.
I've heard good things about the current run of Knight and Squire.
Never really read any Brit supers myself, and not really many Brit comics in general.
Doctor Who is enough of a superhero.
Also Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood and James Bond as others have said.
Living in England I've seen a good few attempts at setting superhero games in Britain. In general I'd say just transplanting the classic American superheroes styles feels a bit artificial. It's not a deal breaker though.
I think to feel genuine, a British or just European superhero is something that would have to be more closely regulated if not directly controlled by the government. In popular culture America is seen as the land of individual freedoms. American gun laws, for instance, are something Europeans just do not understand, in Britain not even our police are normally armed. Likewise they still bounty hunters in the US, where as in the UK you get in trouble for defending your home from a burglar too vigorously.
As it were in a recent Icons one-shot, during character generation when we were deciding on the specifics of the setting we did decide to go for a British secret government unit of paranormals and that worked very well.
I think we have to look back to before American comics started. To 18th- 19th Century satirical cartoons. Particularly Punch. After all Punch's representation of Britain wasn't the slim sexy goddess the Romans gave us (though she does pop up occasionally) he was a fat alcholic, chain smoker in a top hat called John Bull.
Whereas Captain America is what America aspires to John Bull is a cynical swipe at what the British are.
Quote from: Ian Warner;470538I think we have to look back to before American comics started. To 18th- 19th Century satirical cartoons. Particularly Punch. After all Punch's representation of Britain wasn't the slim sexy goddess the Romans gave us (though she does pop up occasionally) he was a fat alcholic, chain smoker in a top hat called John Bull.
Whereas Captain America is what America aspires to John Bull is a cynical swipe at what the British are.
Yeah, but we are also the country of Sherlock Holmes, James Bond, Emma Peel and John Steed, which aren't technically superheroes, but they are still near superhuman crime-fighters.
I always thought that Doctor Who and Harry Potter were archetypical UK superheroes.
Quote from: Soylent Green;470541Yeah, but we are also the country of Sherlock Holmes, James Bond, Emma Peel and John Steed, which aren't technically superheroes, but they are still near superhuman crime-fighters.
They're pretty much all arseholes though. Wouldn't want to know any of them socially.
I'd still prefer their company over that of, say, Captain America or Superman. Too boring.
Weren't The Young Ones a superhero team?
Quote from: tellius;470501No Heroics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Heroics) is the perfect example of British Super Heroes.
They mostly hang around at a pub. I thought it was fucking brilliant and I really wish a second season was commissioned for it.
Yeah, i think that's about right. A missed opportunity there, i think.
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;470506It's been a while since I read my copies of Planetary, but I seem to remember an issue where they go to a funeral in London. I think Warren Ellis uses that issue to discuss the differences between the way the U.K. sees superheroes and how the U.S. sees them. I'll need to go back and read the comic again to be sure about this.
That would be interesting, if you have the time to check it. :)
I suppose the classic interpretation of British supers is mythological in nature, as opposed to scientific. Power comes from the land, or Excalibur or something like that.
V for Vendetta is ostensibly somewhat more than human and based in fascist Britain.
Does a superheroine get her bazookas out for the lads mags or page 3?
What about 'muslamic' superheroes? Or (god forbid) some knucklehead from the EDL?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;470576I suppose the classic interpretation of British supers is mythological in nature, as opposed to scientific.
Ooh hey that reminds me of that comic book Finn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finn_%28comics%29) although I'd have ascribed that more Celtic roots than British as such:
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o128/localmike/finn_9.jpg)
Feckin awesome. I could see a countergovernmental movement of superheroes on that basis.
Lets not forget we have a group of the most powerful heroes/villains (varied by episode) in the World in Britain. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-w8OKo4phg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/Friendly_Computer/TheGoodies.jpg)
They also have a smash hit single (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXq8rELhUkw)
And the most environmentally friendly and economical Super Hero transport ever...
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/Friendly_Computer/GoodiesBike.jpg)
Quote from: Soylent Green;470527...Likewise they still bounty hunters in the US, ...
Really???
There's a TV program on channel 4 next Friday called Superheroes of Suburbia which follows 3 blokes who dress up as superheroes and cruise the streets after pub closing time...
It's a documentary!
Still, the Dark Spartan has an awesome costume - must cosplay.
Quote from: Soylent Green;470527Likewise they still bounty hunters in the US,
Quote from: Omnifray;470626Really???
Yes, although Boba Fett they aren't. American bounty hunters mostly exist to capture bail jumpers, and must be allowed to cross jurisdictional and state lines to catch and return these bail jumpers so they are much more savvy about laws than the stereotype ever was (if they were a
Traveller character, each Bounty Hunter should have Bureacracy-1 as a skill).
Quote from: Omnifray;470626Really???
You mean you've never watched Dog the Bounty Hunter (http://www.dogthebountyhunter.com/)?
Inshallah, the first muslim superhero. He also has the privilege of being the first britain to have superpowers (in the modern age).
King Arthur really does return and commandeers Stonehenge as his point of power.
Grimeboy (or girl) is a young black kid that survives a shooting, miraculously, and manifests superpowers.
The Red Dragon, and probably his Scottish equivalent, appear with interests in devolution.
Beneath Westminster Abbey something stirs in the tomb of the Unknown Soldier and Tommy Smith comes back to life as the latest incarnation of that magical archetype at the whim of Dr Dee, the Eternal Alchemist.
Quote from: danbuter;470752You mean you've never watched Dog the Bounty Hunter (http://www.dogthebountyhunter.com/)?
He is so fucking not representative of any bounty hunter I have ever met....
Marshall Law is Pat Mills British take on American Super Heroes though it is set in America, as is Judge Dredd of course another MIlls invention.
Then you have a range of attempts from Excalibur , that re-imaged Captain Britain without all the cool Arthurian backstory, to Zenith and on the telly Misfits (which is skins meets the X-men).
There is a strong mythological edge to the top British comics though, The Invisbles are superheroes but armed with magic rather than radiation poisoning, and Tim Hunter is like the British teenage equivalent of Dr Strange, only with cryptic faeries, a tough little Irish girlfriend and some really good writting.
Of course the ultimate British Superhero is John Constantine, a chainsmoking Scouse anarchist conman.
The ultimate british superhero is Doctor Who.
RPGPundit
I'm feeling that the definition of superhero in this thread is rather elastic.
I dn't class Dr Who as a superhero, nor the goodies.
Well I think getting run over by a train then getting up and walking away is pretty super heroic :D
The Doctor totally has superpowers.
In fact, the way he's written he's often bordering on old school Superman superpowers where he seemed to get a new one every week.
For fuck's sake in the first Martha episode he demonstrates an ability to excrete radiation through his foot.
Quote from: RPGPundit;470877The ultimate british superhero is Doctor Who.
RPGPundit
Bollocks...it's Withnail
I'm working under the assumption that the OP is talking about your capes and cowls supers, not just anyone that can do weird shit.
And I'm not a fan of the new Who's ridiculous abilities. Headbutt telepathy, cooling rod feet, spare hands or whatever. I think it's all gotten a bit silly and is clearly aimed at the kids market.
Your statement implies such stuff is a recent development.
That's really not the case. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(Doctor_Who)#Physiology)
I can't really comment on British SuperHeroes from comics as I don't read comics.
However, I do watch the telly and British SuperHero TV programmes are usually comedies or try to have funny moments. We can't take SuperHeroes seriously, so make fun of the people or situations.
I was going to mention Misfits and No Heroics, but they have already been highlighted. Another is My Hero, which covers the life of Thermo Man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Hero_(TV_series).
All of these TV programmes look at the everyday lives of SuperHeroes and ask the question "What would be different about life if you had super powers?" The answer - virtually nothing.
Heroes tried to ask the same question, but didn't answer it in the same way as it was more concerned about the conflicts between Super Heroes then the conflicts between being a Super Hero and having to live a normal life.
So, a British Super Hero would be doing his/her own ironing, going to the pub and complaining about the weather. Sure, the ironing could be done without an iron, going to the pub might take a couple of seconds and the Super Hero can change the weather, but that's beside the point.
Personally, I think that too much is made of the mundane, hum-drum nature of British SuperHeroes. I would like to see a British SuperHero who does Heroic things as well as going down the shops.
Marvelman/Miracleman was a UK creation... his second incarnation by Alan Moore was great stuff... and I'm not usually a fan of supers.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;470957I'm working under the assumption that the OP is talking about your capes and cowls supers, not just anyone that can do weird shit.
That's part of the question though. All the UK references we got so far - Sherlock Holmes, John Steed, James Bond - stand out by preserving their (relative) anonymity,
not behind some laughable costume (which screams "Look at me!!"), but behind the everyman's dress style. Basically Clark Kent, minus the other half. It's that other half, the
show off,* which is so undecidedly British - and in
poor taste - that I can't ever imagine a British super hero. And the 'special powers' of a Sherlock Holmes are so deliberately
not superhuman that they indicate just how far off the mark these characters are when viewed as supers. I think the OP is correct, then.
And thanks to Ian Warner for a(nother) round of impressive and delightful posts.
*This is often overlooked with James Bond. He only shows off towards the audience in the movie theatre and the lone woman, not to a public going oooh and aaah in the movie itself.
Quote from: J Arcane;470962Your statement implies such stuff is a recent development.
That's really not the case. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(Doctor_Who)#Physiology)
I did an article on that in Wizkid Who: I identified the Colin Baker Doctor as the worst offender of the Classic Series. (http://shadow-world.blog.co.uk/2011/04/24/wizkid-who-interlude-time-lord-physiology-11051483/)
But compared to Tennant all the other Doctor's "emergency plot physiology" stuff is pretty tame.
Quote from: Windjammer;470971That's part of the question though. All the UK references we got so far - Sherlock Holmes, John Steed, James Bond - stand out by preserving their (relative) anonymity, not behind some laughable costume (which screams "Look at me!!"), but behind the everyman's dress style. Basically Clark Kent, minus the other half. It's that other half, the show off,* which is so undecidedly British - and in poor taste - that I can't ever imagine a British super hero. And the 'special powers' of a Sherlock Holmes are so deliberately not superhuman that they indicate just how far off the mark these characters are when viewed as supers. I think the OP is correct, then.
*This is often overlooked with James Bond. He only shows off towards the audience in the movie theatre and the lone woman, not to a public going oooh and aaah in the movie itself.
You're comparing apples and oranges. Comic-book superheroes have colorful costumes because it is hard to distinguish between facial features in a four-color comic - because of (1) small panel size, (2) low quality of the mass-produced art and reproduction; and (3) young readership demographic. In movies, prose, or television it is easy to distinguish between characters and costumes are not necessary - though names are important in these media. Thus, Bond and Steed still use their goddamn real names even when supposedly undercover.
In any case, there are tons of American heroes who are not cape-and-cowl superheroes. All of the above are most certainly showoffs compared to Lieutenant Columbo, for example. James Bond is flashier than Jason Bourne or Jack Bauer.
The Early Doctors (particularly Patrick "Master of Disguise" Troughtan) had an element of ordinary mixed with show off.
Then of course came Tom Baker and from then on in none of the Doctor's Incarnations understood the meaning of the word subtlty.
Except maybe Ecclestone
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/Friendly_Computer/9thDoctor.jpg)
Then again Ecclestone is such an awesome actor he doesn't need to dress like a colour blind dipshit to look alien.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/Friendly_Computer/7thDoctor.jpg)
Actually I don't think he did either. Oh well.
Quote from: Ian Warner;470975I did an article on that in Wizkid Who: I identified the Colin Baker Doctor as the worst offender of the Classic Series. (http://shadow-world.blog.co.uk/2011/04/24/wizkid-who-interlude-time-lord-physiology-11051483/)
But compared to Tennant all the other Doctor's "emergency plot physiology" stuff is pretty tame.
On the other hand, Colin Baker for whatever reason had the best comics made of his doctor out of any of them, the Voyager saga.
Also, he had the best comic-book companion; Frobisher. I mean really, was there any other comics-only companion that was even vaguely memorable (in the sense that you'd actually want to remember them) other than Frobisher? I think not.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;471140On the other hand, Colin Baker for whatever reason had the best comics made of his doctor out of any of them, the Voyager saga.
Also, he had the best comic-book companion; Frobisher. I mean really, was there any other comics-only companion that was even vaguely memorable (in the sense that you'd actually want to remember them) other than Frobisher? I think not.
RPGPundit
Alan Moore's work says otherwise.
So basically, you twats think that a mythical thief, 3 comedians on a bike, a Mary Sue detective, and a space hobo are British super heroes.
Sounds very British to me ;)
Quote from: One Horse Town;471228So basically, you twats think that a mythical thief, 3 comedians on a bike, a Mary Sue detective, and a space hobo are British super heroes.
Well one of the trouble is that a bunch of Briish Superheroes have been set in America, Judge Dredd, Marshall Law, A host of stuff Moore and the rest write.
The Original Captain Britain was very British. He had mystic Arthurian origins and everything. Then the Excalibur team was basically the Briitsh Avengers.
More recently you would have to say that British Heroes like the Invisibles, John Constantine and Luther Arkwright (though to be fair to say his is recent is a stretch) focus on the mystic rather than the more scientific american angle and they don;t co in for the standard spandex costumes.
So if you had to list out some of the characteristics of the British superhero I would say
- Mystic over scientific - you don't get radioactive bugs, or super serums, and even Union Jack had a silver dagger for slaying vampires
- Generally the hero amongst us - they are more clandestine and they don;t wear neon orange jump suits
- Cynical
- Strong anarchist tendencies - even Arkwright who works for the government is pretty anarchic
Now a lot of that is going to be about where comics came from in the UK and who as a result is writing them. Because more adult British comics grew up during the miserable depressing 1970s and were forged in the thatcherite era the authors have pretty distopic views, comic writers in the UK are pretty much left wing reactionaries where they examin the hero myth it's looking for the cracks and they have our Inferiority complex to the US and our rejection of that 4 colour world that The 1950s US comics kind of epitomise.
Compare Skizz to ET. In ET the government are really okay and are just trying to help, yes they are gauch and heavy handed but not evil, in Skizz they want to catch the alien and dissect it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;471228So basically, you twats think that a mythical thief, 3 comedians on a bike, a Mary Sue detective, and a space hobo are British super heroes.
Not me boss.
Quote from: One Horse Town;471228So basically, you twats think that a mythical thief, 3 comedians on a bike, a Mary Sue detective, and a space hobo are British super heroes.
The Space Hobo has every element of a "superhero" to him, yes. If the Doctor isn't a superhero, then I'd think that Tony Stark isn't either. He's missing precisely ONE element that is usually absolutely necessary to the "superhero" conception, which is a spandex uniform. He has everything else; and he spends his time fighting villains, stopping evil, and righting wrongs.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;471556which is a spandex uniform.
We'll get one eventually: Probably the first female Doctor for sheer fan service!
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;471167Alan Moore's work says otherwise.
I quite liked Alan Moore's comics on the origins of the Time Lords and all that, but it didn't really seem to be all that "Doctor Who". It was kickass sci-fi, but it wasn't as great a Doctor Who story as the Colin Baker-era comics were.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;471708I quite liked Alan Moore's comics on the origins of the Time Lords and all that, but it didn't really seem to be all that "Doctor Who". It was kickass sci-fi, but it wasn't as great a Doctor Who story as the Colin Baker-era comics were.
RPGPundit
How do you feel about Abslom Daak ?
Quote from: jibbajibba;471716How do you feel about Abslom Daak ?
The Dalek-killer is pretty awesome, but again, kind of tangential to the Doctor Who concept.. its almost like an alternate-universe sort of thing, not entirely in following with some of the standard tropes of Doctor Who.
RPGPundit
I knew there was some Brit superhero lurking in the back of my brain, and I've finally recalled him - Garth!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garth_(comic_strip)
Found as a baby, raised by foster parents in an out of the way place - so far, so Superman.
Then he joins the Royal Navy, finally gets an origin/background (half human, half alien), and then travels time and space fighting evil (umm...)
The strip ran for years in the British newspaper the Daily Mirror, which is where I read it, as a kid. It confused the hell out of me!
No superpowers aside from being extremely strong and an excellent fighter - and no costume.