When you run a supers game, do you want, or have you had more success with, a game where the PCs are basically second-rung supers (ie. a known team but not the Big League guys of the universe, and you have NPCs who are the real "Alpha Supers" running around in the background), or where the PCs themselves are the Top Guns of the setting?

Does it make a difference if you are playing in a licensed world? And if so, how do you do it? If you're playing in the DC universe, do you have the PCs replace Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman? Or do you have them side-by-side with them? If so, how do you really make those PCs the equals of Supes or Bats, without having the latter seem less than what they should be?
Do you have the PCs be part of the Justice League, or is it better to have them running around being the Outsiders or the Doom Patrol, while the League is around in the background?

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The game I ran in the Marvel Universe the player character were on an equal footing  with all the big names. In the course of the campaign the beat up a mind controlled Captain America, rescued Thor from Hell, survived the Hulk and fought side by side with the FF.

Not being the "B team" was actually really quite important for them.

I've always run or played it where the PCs are either relatively new or nearly powerful as the main group. For example: the Justice League are still the big dogs, but people know who the PCs are as well. Over time, if the campaign lasts long enough, the PCs might eclipse the JLA, but it would take a while.

Only ever played Necessary Evil and that kind of assumes you're at the bottom of the heap to start with.

I did bring in a few Batman Villains for Cameos.

Problem was rather than saving them from the Aliens my PCs just killed them!

By the very nature of the Marvel and DC settings, it makes it super easy to be "on par" with the big guys.

Take Marvel: There's always enough crap going around for three Avengers teams, the X-Men (who are often split into more than one team), the Fantastic Four...to say nothing of what individual members like Iron Man or Thor are doing at any given moment. It's not a big stretch to put the PCs in a world-shaking event that, frankly, no one else can take care of right then for one reason or another.

Gah. Post devoured by the internet.

The short version is I prefer the PC's to be the A-team. If other teams are out there, they aren't doing the important things the PC's are doing. They might have other big things going on--but the PC's are top tier for their power level.

I've got three supers games going. One is Avengers power level (The Menagerie), the other is Avengers power level but with fewer PC's (For Justice), and the last is very low end street level (Reliquary). The Rhino took the latter team on--and basically won their first encounter. We'll have to see how they do against him under the pay of the Crocodile King..

The interesting thing about this question to me is that it's one of the few where there is a big difference between DC and Marvel.  DC really has an A-list and everyone knows who is on it and who isn't.  It's not a matter of power, since Captain Marvel and Power Girl tend to be peripheral (not all, but most of the time) while Batman is, well, Batman.  As Brownell notes, Marvel has at least five different groups saving the cosmos at any given time, it's most concentrated line up in terms of raw power was the original Defenders (a weak or non-existent team most of the time), and there's plenty of room for one hero or a few heroes to be the only ones who can take care of whatever threatens NYC today.  Creating someone who explicitly rivals Thor or the Hulk, or a team in the same league as the Avengers, would upset the Marvel Universe much less than rivalling Superman and the JLA would the DC Universe.

I find it easier to create a campaign around a team of newcomers in a world where superpowers already exist - making it not that different from a typical group of fantasy adventurers, I suppose.  In the abstract, this thread fills me with a perverse desire to run a Morrison-style Seven Soldiers campaign...

It has been years since I ran a supers game, but I didn't use a licensed universe (although I borrowed heavily from DC and Marvel with the serial numbers filed off) and the PCs started as the lowest rung of superheroes and worked up to being the top tier group. I was using Villains & Vigilantes, which is level based, and I think that had a lot to do with it, plus there was the feeling of accomplishment when the PCs finally made it into the Big League.

Best Super game I ever played was Hero system, 1990/1991, when I lived in San Diego. Our group was "The Relief Team." We were the group called in when all the other Super-teams were busy and/or out of town, "West Coast Avengers saving the world?! Every Single other SuperHero is out fighting a SuperVillian?! You still have a problem that requires abilities above those of a Talented Normal?! Then, if you really, really are desperate, maybe your problem needs 'The Relief Team'!"

Yea, we were "second string", if that. Our nominal 'Team Leader' was a Gadget user with Police Powers/Authority, he was a member of the San Diego PD and his Super ID was "Police Kid", we called him CopKid and he was a Police Lt. Our NPC Supervisor at SDPD was a parody of Captain Trunk from the TV Show Sledge Hammer and always yelling at CopKid.

Frequently we were sent out after Talented Normal Villians or other small time Supervillians that didn't warrant calling out someone like the West Coast Avengers. Unless the SD Swat Team could handle it. We typically caused more damage to the local area than the Villians in our enthusiasm to stop the Bad Guys.

The two characters who were in effect our leaders, at least the ones that we listened to most of the time, were big Media Hounds. They, and by extension the rest of the team, would show up on the scene and make the Bad Guys a deal, "Ok, either we go all out and smash you as hard as we can, or we all stand here in our spots nice and quiet until the media shows up, then we'll still kick your ass but we'll pull our punches and try not to break any limbs, your choice."

Needless to say, it was a lot of fun!

I'd rather have the PCs be the A-listers.  (And I've never run a supers game in a licensed universe.)

It varies, but I think it bears noting that whether you're the second string, the A-listers, noobs or veterans, the important thing is for the situations to provide immediacy and for you to respond with that.

In a Green Lantern comic, nobody ever says, "meh, let's not worry about these invading aliens, Superman will shoot them with his laser eyes".  Instead, they're fighting the invading aliens and punching their ray guns or whatever.  It's not that Superman is more or less powerful than the heroes of whatever DC comics team we're talking about, it's that Superman isn't really relevant to whether or not the costumed bad guy right here is going to blow up the reservoir or poison the weather or whatever.

Some games with some cool things to say on this subject:

With Great Power requires the players to identify the thing about their character that is most of interest to them (the players) right now. These are called the "strife aspects".  The villain's plan requires them to blow up, turn against them, isolate, alienate, steal or destroy all the strife aspects.  So if they're really interested in their boyfriend, it's right now that the villain kidnaps them and subjects them to the Evilization Process as part of their master plan.  This provides immediacy - there's never, ever a moment when players are like "someone else who's targetting my boyfriend, bor-ring".  The things that are of interest to the players are the things that are on the table right now.

Smallville makes motivation and relationships as important to effectiveness as capability.  This is actually pretty true to the comics.  How many times has some asshole taunted Batman that he's just a dude in a suit, but Batman believes in his cause more, and he's got to Save The Orphanage, and therefore he manages to pull out the situation with some crazy plan despite being outclassed with some superpower or another.  ICONS, by using FATE, is similar to Smallville insofar as the character's aspects can add to your effectiveness, though ICONS somewhat tips the proportions the other way - most of your effectiveness comes from powers/skills/whatnot, then a little boost from the aspects instead of it being closer to even.

Most of our supers games are what we term, "Street Level." If we play them for a long time, usually we get into some world or cosmic level stuff, but mostly we keep it street level.

The last long and successful supers game I ran, the party was about as powerful as the x-men as individuals, though they didn't have a mind controller getting them infinite money like the x-men have, so they were mostly stuck in one city. That's ok. There was plenty to do there.

There was another hero team with fewer members of less power that the PCs would send to handle stuff that was easier, and sometimes the PCs had to bail them out. For the big stuff though, they provided extra fire power.

In licensed universes (i.e. DC & Marvel), we've always been a superteam, but generally not to the level of the Fantastic Four (arguably the most powerful team; the Avengers occasionally deal with cosmic threats, Reed typically deals with 3 before lunch...) or the Avengers, or the JLA.

But lots of teams are more powerful that the lower-power X-men teams, or the Doom Patrol. Most of those teams get a little more respect though, since they've been around longer (at least at first).

Personally, if I'm doing my own world, I like for the heroes to be one of the first superheroes, a la the 60's superhero explosion at Marvel. I typically also prefer setting the game in the 60's, since 1) it plays to the Equal Rights Movement, and 2) Tech is a lot easier to control. Cell phones are something Tony Stark or Cyborg walks around with, not every kid over 10.

I like the best of both worlds.  I have the game in an established universe, but the PCs are the "main heroes" of Campaign City (Megapolis) which I drop into said established universe.

Other people from that universe make cameos, or may even give the Heroes a mission, but they don't out-shine the Heroes, especially not in their city.  I do often have Villains from the established universe show up, though.  But trouncing them just makes the Heroes seem even more badass.

Quote from: Soylent Green;459901The game I ran in the Marvel Universe the player character were on an equal footing  with all the big names. In the course of the campaign the beat up a mind controlled Captain America, rescued Thor from Hell, survived the Hulk and fought side by side with the FF.

Not being the "B team" was actually really quite important for them.

From the sound of it though, they were playing original rather than established Marvel Universe characters?
Was there no sense that they were just being "jammed in" to the universe? They didn't feel like (or you didn't feel like they were) interlopers, or "second rate" by virtue of not being established properties?

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