I was flipping through the Beeb's website and came across this article...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/5041046.stm

It got me to thinking about superhero games.  Frankly, I've never liked 'em.  Maybe it's my background in D&D -- I'm used to taking a weak character and, after struggle and strife, transforming them into a powerful character.

Superheroes are usually quite different -- they're frontloaded.  They might change and grow a bit but, historically, they start out uberpowerful and stay that way.

I've been catching up on Smallville and it has shown a way that even a character like Superman could gradually come into his powers.

What makes a good superhero game, though?  Do you want front-loaded characters, or do you want to slowly build them up?  And how heroic do you want them to be?  That's part of the main thrust of the article I've linked to -- though darkness and angst is hardly the new development the author implies.  In my brief acquiantance with Mutants & Masterminds, I can tell you for sure that it doesn't do dark & gritty at all.

When you look at a high-level D&D character, it seems like superheroes should be a natural for RPGs.  A 20th level character can often put most superheroes to shame.  And yet, I've never seen a game that grabbed me and kept my attention.

I see I'm rambling in my tired state -- what do you guys think of superheroes and gaming?  

Art. That's the crux of it for me. Superheroes are indeliby linked to comic books for me, and comics are almost completely about the artwork. Yeah, there are good comic writers, and some storylines are good, but really, when these writers write novels about superheroes, how many of them ever sell really, really well, in comparison to their four-color counterparts? Very few. So art is what draws me to superheroes in general. Most superhero games have just had shitty art. Sure, in the past both DC and Marvel had RPGs about their universes, but the art, while pretty good, was never that inspiring. Mutants & Masterminds had some fanastic art (first edition, but I'm warming to the art in the new edition), which continued in some of the supplements like Freedom City. I can't think of a superhero game that even comes close in the quality of its art.

Funny, was just was on my mind when I came here this morning.

I think it is a matter of tone. In order for a super hero game to work, everybody- or most everybody at the table, has to have the same kind of idea of what kind of super hero game they would like to play. Different eras/creators produced comics with very different tones. If you're looking for 1980's style angsty X-men type role play, or Batman/Dardevil street level crime fighting and the GM is thinking Kirby style Cosmic action (as I am) there is going to be a problem. This is REALLY important- especailly in regards to character creation. In a fantasy game it's hard to go wrong at first level. You make a character who isn't so powerful and isn't really much good at what they do- not yet, anyway. If this character is ill suited to the first adventure, experience and advancement can be used to change the character's direction without necessarily disrupting the player's vision. Superheros are more difficult in this regard, I think. Green Lantern is going to be a lot more out of place in Batman's Mileau that a pirate would be in a dungeon...

 Starting with poweful characters is all relative too- Captain America seems like a bad ass right out of the gate- until you meet the Hulk or any number of other powerful heros. In a superhero game it is not so much how powerful you are as how you use your power.

The most important thing, though, in a superhero campaign (imo) is background. Most successful superhero line of comics are part of a larger background. You want things like S.H.I.E.L.D. and Galactus woven into the fabric of your world. There should be a past that stretches back for tens of thousands of years- if not to the beginning of time. Cheesy rationels for why there are so many superpowered people are necessary too.

That's too much for a first post, sorry.

ed for sp.

Ah, the really tricky part about running a superhero game is that, contrary to what one might first assume, the Superpower is not the currency that matters.  Not if you're trying to emulate the comics.  In the comics, its not about how uber-powerful your powers are; I mean, some of the most powerful beings are villains, and they get their asses kicked all the time.

In the comics, its all about your level of protagonism. How famous you are, how important you are to the "multiverse". That's how Batman can get away with kicking the shit out of Darkseid.

RPGPundit

I think the superhero genre can work for a game.  I'm an old D&D player and I'm running an Aberrant game currently.  I prefer to start smaller than most super hero games do so I pulled a ton of power away from my players to start with and let them build up towards the man of steel instead of starting near him.  I don't think I could run a super hero game any other way.  I've played too many advancement based games to not want to see my character's powers grow in addition to character and plot development.  It gave me a lot of time to lay the ground work for plots and set up allies and enemies before the players could charge in powers blazing and beat everyone up.

I think my biggest potential flaw with super hero games is I don't enjoy cartoonish games.  Real people die and there are real consequences for the characters actions.  By being too close to the PC's several important friends/contacts/allies have been driven insane by mental manipulations and torturous situations that they only encountered because they hung out with superheros but weren't ones themselves.  

I've discovered I most enjoy thwarting super hero's with non super enemies.  I'd rather have them worried about a government that might nuke the world if they feel helpless than Dr. Doom.

Does anyone have a favorite super hero game system they could recomend?  Aberrant's rules are painful in places and they didn't balance the powers, or the character creation points at all.
I prefer points over levels but I'm willing to look at most systems.  I prefer rules heavyto rules light.

Quote from: RPGPunditAh, the really tricky part about running a superhero game is that, contrary to what one might first assume, the Superpower is not the currency that matters.  Not if you're trying to emulate the comics.  In the comics, its not about how uber-powerful your powers are; I mean, some of the most powerful beings are villains, and they get their asses kicked all the time.

Very interesting. I can't think of any RPG that has confronted this issue in any meaningful way,-and I think they should- IMO of course

I normaly run superherolike games. For instance, my most recent foray was using BESM to run a series of adventures one week before the fall of the Berlin Wall. The players created characters based on different myths/gods/supernatural figures of various world cultures - so for instance there was a character based on Horus and another based on a demonlike figure from Malay mythology etc - they were normal post graduate students but there were blessed or cursed with these strange powers fighting others of their kind and the goverment who had created high tech weapons to deal with this threat. It was the kind of high tech found in comics -know what I mean

There were a lot of fights over cities. Tearing loose street lamps to use as weapons, flying over rooftops,all the tropes from the comics and movies, but there was also stuff  from other comic sources, like the darker themes from the Vertigo imprint etc.

So yeah, supers roleplaying has always been a bit of a problem for me. I like the whole feel of some comics but to date have not been able to translate that "tone" to rpgs - probably because of the point Rpgpundit made -and also because for some odd reason I have not been able to sustain long term campaign play...either from working off what my players say and do or thinking up of an interesting storyline - so in other words I can run limited series but not long term ones

Regards,
David R

I've been working on a low-powered, street-level superhero comic for a while and I'm contemplating writing a d20 Modern setting for it

Have you noticed how little difference there is between mid-level d20 Modern characters and low-powered superheroes? Especially if you compare them to Ordinaries

Different SHRPGs handle advancement differently (of course).  While it's usually fairly difficult to gain new powers in any given SHRPG, that doesn't mean that there is no advancement.  In level-based games like Villains & Vigilantes and Heroes (Un)limited, your choice of powers are usually fairly static, but your ability to use them well improves as you level up.  In the original Marvel Super-Heroes game, buying new powers was hideously expensive in terms of experience spent, and even improving existing powers wasn't cheap... but buying new ways to use your existing powers ("power stunts") was fairly cheap and effective.  In point-based games like GURPS and Champions, it's a lot easier to buy new powers, although it will probably take a while to get those new powers to where they're truly effective.

In the comics, it's fairly uncommon for superheores to get new powers.  SHRPGs should refelcet this, IMO... but if that's not what you're used to, then perhaps superhero gaming isn't for you.

Quote from: Xavier LangDoes anyone have a favorite super hero game system they could recomend?  Aberrant's rules are painful in places and they didn't balance the powers, or the character creation points at all.
I prefer points over levels but I'm willing to look at most systems.  I prefer rules heavyto rules light.

Neither are necessarily my favorite systems (those would be either MEGS or V&V), but for rules-heavy point-based games, I suspect you would want to look at either GURPS Supers and/or Champions.

Quote from: Xavier LangI think the superhero genre can work for a game.  I'm an old D&D player and I'm running an Aberrant game currently.  I prefer to start smaller than most super hero games do so I pulled a ton of power away from my players to start with and let them build up towards the man of steel instead of starting near him.  I don't think I could run a super hero game any other way.  I've played too many advancement based games to not want to see my character's powers grow in addition to character and plot development.  It gave me a lot of time to lay the ground work for plots and set up allies and enemies before the players could charge in powers blazing and beat everyone up.

I think my biggest potential flaw with super hero games is I don't enjoy cartoonish games.  Real people die and there are real consequences for the characters actions.  By being too close to the PC's several important friends/contacts/allies have been driven insane by mental manipulations and torturous situations that they only encountered because they hung out with superheros but weren't ones themselves.  

I've discovered I most enjoy thwarting super hero's with non super enemies.  I'd rather have them worried about a government that might nuke the world if they feel helpless than Dr. Doom.

Does anyone have a favorite super hero game system they could recomend?  Aberrant's rules are painful in places and they didn't balance the powers, or the character creation points at all.
I prefer points over levels but I'm willing to look at most systems.  I prefer rules heavyto rules light.

For rules-heavy superhero games Champions is king. No question in my mind. HERO system is wonderfully flexible and can handle just about any character concept...

The downside is that the rules achieve this flexibility with lots and lots of math. It can take a fearsome amount of work to generate a Champions campaign from the ground up. It is also very easy for a player new to the system to generate an absolutely hopeless character.

If none of that intimidates you, use Champions. You won't regret it.

Quote from: Vermicious KnidIf none of that intimidates you, use Champions. You won't regret it.

This is very true. I really do not dig the Champions system, but I have to say, for a Supers campaign a friend ran, this system turned out to be very good. We all created the heroes we wanted to within the rules, and although the players never really got a handle on the system, the GM who knew the system extremely well (it was her favourite system), made the whole experience one of the best campaigns we ever played in

Regards,
David R

I've actually been hankering to play a supers game lately. I think they lend themselves well to one shots and episodes because of the front loading, total-concept nature of the genre (that, and that continuity has rarely been a huge concern in the genre). The advice about concensus on style is good--I often found myself playing the sole tortured-guy-trying-to-be-good in a group of sunshine supermen, and the style clash didn't always work well.

I think the ultimate nullifier is currently working on a really interesting supers campaign, but you'd have to get him to explain it.

For me, superhero games are a quick and familiar storyline, focus on kicking bad guy butt, and let me develop an advanced character concept rather quickly (and I was using Champions at the time). World elements more complicated than white hat-black hat may be nice, but aren't crucial. Simple line drawings that let me (of limited artistic ability) color in costumes are.

Quote from: willpaxI think the ultimate nullifier is currently working on a really interesting supers campaign, but you'd have to get him to explain it.

Here I am!  The poster formerly known as the ultimate nullifier.

Anyway, I am running an M&M 2E game entitled: Urban Legend set in 1977 New York City with a focus on horror/cosmic themes - and when I say cosmic, I don't mean Galactus - more like the Six-Fingered Hand and Mephisto type stuff - though I am building it very slowly.

We have four sessions under our belts so far.

I am a D&D guy - so this is a new direction for me and I am always anxious about each session, but then have a lot of fun (as do the players) during them.

As for power level, for those familiar with M&M I started at PL8 - as I wanted the PCs to be familiar enough with their powers to use them - but still new to the idea of being a superhero - oh, and in this setting there are no public superheros - there are only "Urban Legends" - that is superheroes and their adversaries are the equivalent of Bigfoot or the Jersey Devil - so the PCs also spend time hiding their powers, or mentally manipulating witnesses to have them forget - but this will become increasingly difficult.

Anyway, check the wiki: http://urbanlegend.wikispaces.com

Quote from: GunhildaI'm used to taking a weak character and, after struggle and strife, transforming them into a powerful character.

After a bit of thought, it's certainly possible to do something like this... but it's something that everyone, players and GM alike, need to be on the same page for.

In a point based game like GURPS or Champions, the PCs would start off with fairly low point totals (low for supers, at least).  Just as importantly, any individual power would start off with a fairly low point cap.  After play begins, characters get a fairly large amount of XP per game, to help them buy up their powers, or even buy new powers, as well as add to their skills, stats, etc.  This should create the 'Smallville' effect you mentioned; it won't resemble a traditional super hero type of game, but if everyone's okay with that, then it's not a problem.

I'd be curious to hear the opinions of anyone who has tried With Great Power.