Quote from: FF_Ninja on October 29, 2021, 09:17:22 PM
I agree. Typically, anyway. I tend to find, however, that too much freeform can be counterproductive to designing a good character. Take GURPS for example: the character creation potential is absolutely staggering, but the lack of innate structure all but requires the Storyteller to set limitations in order to curtail the abject chaos that is not only possible but commonplace in such an unrestricted environment.

In the last Hero System game I played, we had two very experienced gamers play that had never played Hero System. They understood the genre well and, that there were plenty of examples available it wasn't hard for them to come up with genre appropriate characters. But pure point buy powers by itself might be hard for baby's first RPG.

Hero System 5 for me at least, was its last incarnation in its best monolithic single book in which it held everything you really need.

Seen it too many times, Supers played straight doesn't feel or sound like comic book Supers. It just becomes a quick slide into either Principia Discordia or Supers Dystopia.

People kill threats because, well, vigilantes are needed to deal with a broken legal system in the face of superpowers. Dead threats don't tend to return -- and those that do you fling into the Sun or void of space (someone else's problem). Then it becomes an arms race as threats mount, tank captains draw domain, coalitions gather, and a new gov't arises that either now has the super oppressive power of PC supes or becomes screeching murderhobo chaos... and campaign is abandoned. Once a player achieves enough points/powers or a coalition to rule the table, or players cooperate to bully the GM into subjecting their world to their scenery chewing whim, the game ends abandoned everyone sad & bored.

I have yet to play a good Supers game. No point buy system or traditional level system ever seemed to steer away from this repeated dissolve. Maybe Marvels Super Heroes with its karma system is the trick to adhering to genre restraints, but I haven't played that one. I just know M&M, Champions, HERO, Exalted, GURPS, ICONS, Stooper Powers (admittedly a joke rpg), and a few others I am likely forgetting all left a very unpleasant aftertaste in my mouth. Like Zombie Apocalypse Survival (or FATE    )  I think the flaw might actually be baked into the premise; the game power structure vs the play verisimilitude to fiction expectation is broken somewhere and mechanics I have seen so far can not change attitudes.

The only real exception I think I have tried *might* be BESM and its anime games. But even most of those imploded mighty fast with much IC killing, bullying, and OOC tears. (Brave New World had promise in its premise, but I only played less than a handful of sessions and then heard the material dropped the ball and people stopped playing.)

I am sure you have much hope and dreams and success with Supers in your circle, and I wish your project well.  But I just cannot share your enthusiasm. Something's broken in the beginning ask of players and I cannot quite place my finger on it. I think Chris' point is worth repeating and exploring.

I appreciate your candor, Opaopajr. Like the other points made, your statements aren't going to fall on deaf ears. Ignoring the shortfalls that lay ahead would be a great way to derail this thing before it even takes off.

You seem to be onto something, and if you ever put your finger on what thing or things specifically throw a major monkey wrench into all of your super games, let me know.

Though, I think special attention needs to go into checks and balances. Everything needs structure, including the PCs, the setting, the game environment, the whole nine yards. I'm on a mobile phone at work right now and I can't write a small essay on some of the issues you brought up, but I should be able to later.

I appreciate your listening. 

Not to taint you game development, but a previous poster here was working on their Supers heartbreaker/labor of love: Tristram Evans working on Phaserip, IIRC the spelling. It is mostly based off of MSH and karma principles.

Some of their posts should still be here on this forum. They also post elsewhere in an offshoot forum (a falling out, off-topic, not important), including design notes. It may help you.

We've had a similar back and forth with my dislike, and confusion for my dislike, for Supers for this forum and the other. It was a surprisingly fruitful exploration in what makes a Supers game and a superhero. Part of it may be that I have trouble connecting to American Superheroes in any way beyond camp or farce. Not a big fan of 1980s deconstructed grim superheroes making bizarre gestures of grace & mercy to supervillains that perpetuates a vicious cycle. Goofy Silver Age boyscouts or 1960s Adam West Batman is more passable. Loved animated series "The New Adventures of Batman" & "X-Men" but still too hard to play as an RPG seriously... there's an undefinable disconnect.

If you don't mind, what is more preferable to you than "Western" supers, and what makes that really stand out to you?

I can stomach the antics of anime games, like BESM stuff, moreso. Maybe because it is often less serious, or at least has more windows of opportunity to allow levity in mood & conceit breaches? Also I can accept In Nomine SJG, even played seriously, because death is not always on the table as the best solution against angels & demons... accepting the human world is different and must be respected supercedes practical, logical mayhem.

That is what came out of the discussion previously. It also could be that I have gamed with many a power gamer constantly and never saw anything different. Any experience has to take into consideration selection bias and sheer luck. So perhaps every Supers I played failed either because of the players/GM, or perhaps just me. I thought I tried to curtail myself, as I actively avoided power gaming for most of my gaming now. But maybe subconsciously I cannot suspend disbelief in doing a boneheaded in-genre Supers comic book action, like returning a repeat offender escapee mass murdering terrorist to Arkham Asylum.

My dream supers game is a game that really embraces the physics of comic book super action... The only games that have come close to this, in the past, are rpgs like DC Heroes 2e, Hero System 5e, and adjacent to these is Heroes Unlimited 2e.

Then I backed the Kickstarter for Ascendant and it is specifically designed to emulate comic book physics supers action. The base dice system is way more elegant than it probably should be... It uses the numbers structure of DC Heroes rpg but uses the percentile color system from TSR Marvel Super Heroes to resolve all dice actions. It's brilliant.

Making characters is definitely up there with the above systems but instead of focusibg on just Effects like in Hero System, you really have to pay attention to the plausible realism of just how strong and agile your character is. Because this game uses the MEGS structure where every number is double the previous number in scale, someone with a Srength of 7 is twice as strong as someone with Strength 6, for example. Everything in the game is balanced on this. If you're doing an action with a Time of 4 its twice as long as a Time 3 action. A object that weighs a Weight 6 is twice as heavy as an object of Weight 5. Speed 10 is twice as fast as Speed 9. Things like that.

Combat uses a Panels and Page structure, to emulate comic books. You can do what you normally see in normal comic book pages, which is like a Movement, a Attack, and something else that's neither. Resolution is a percentile on a simple colored table. When you Attack you compare your Attack rating to the Defenders Defense rating, find the difference on the chart, and roll d100. You can end up with 5 gradients of success, from White (Fail) to Red (Did I just kill you success)... The colors go from White (can't you hit the wall of a barn? Idiot) - Green (normal hit, base damage) - Yellow (good success, double damage) - Orange (Great success, 4x damage) - Red (8x damage).

This applies to non-combat too. Anytime you want to do something you compare your Action rating to Difficulty rating, find difference on chart, and roll.

Basically each color threshold is double the success of the previous color.

This game has rules for things I've never seen before in a supers rpg. Some of it made me scratch my head because it's so grounded in the physics of comic books. It's apparent the designer either really loves comic books, really studied comic books (and a lot of them), or both. It's incredible (to me) how he systemized things in this game.

So if you like DC Heroes but always wanted a simpler dice system, here you go.

Quote from: RebelSky on October 30, 2021, 07:40:17 PM
So if you like DC Heroes but always wanted a simpler dice system, here you go.

I'm still going to pick up Ascendant, but the added color layer and damage system you describe does not sound more simple than MEGS.

"What Makes or Breaks a Supers TTRPG?"

Can I make Superman?

If I can't then the rpg isn't complete. I need levels "Mundane to Ridiculous" for a Supers rpg. The GM will determine how far I can go but I should be able to design anything within that boundary. Superboy if not Superman. Most Supers rpgs grant the lower level without truly reaching the upper level.

TSR's Marvel Superheroes and the FATE-based rps get close if not right there.  Villains & Vigilantes, Mutants & Masterminds and Champions and GURPS Supers get a degree closer.

Quote from: Theory of Games on October 30, 2021, 10:42:28 PM
"What Makes or Breaks a Supers TTRPG?"

Can I make Superman?

If I can't then the rpg isn't complete. I need levels "Mundane to Ridiculous" for a Supers rpg. The GM will determine how far I can go but I should be able to design anything within that boundary. Superboy if not Superman. Most Supers rpgs grant the lower level without truly reaching the upper level.

TSR's Marvel Superheroes and the FATE-based rps get close if not right there.  Villains & Vigilantes, Mutants & Masterminds and Champions and GURPS Supers get a degree closer.

I would even go so far as to state that MSH (the advanced rules box set) with the Ultimate Powers Book is the gold standard to compare other supers games to.

Quote from: Theory of Games on October 30, 2021, 10:42:28 PMCan I make Superman?

How would a game even work with Superman? He's a character that can only be threatened if the player forgets 95% of his established powers. You would have to put some sort of a "Usable only once every 5 adventures" tag on things like his ability to out run bullets (and, thus, almost ever attack anyone uses against him) or his ability to travel through time to solve any problem.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 01, 2021, 04:49:34 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on October 30, 2021, 10:42:28 PMCan I make Superman?

How would a game even work with Superman? He's a character that can only be threatened if the player forgets 95% of his established powers. You would have to put some sort of a "Usable only once every 5 adventures" tag on things like his ability to out run bullets (and, thus, almost ever attack anyone uses against him) or his ability to travel through time to solve any problem.

Then you might not be playing the supervillains effectively...  Lex Luthor isn't strong or fast or have the ability to fly.  But he's a super genius with the fatal flaw of having to rely on minions.  He himself can outsmart Superman for a while, at least. 

If you ignore the DC/Marvel divide, a Superman-like hero would likely be challenged by a Galactic us or Thanos villain...

Quote from: FF_Ninja on October 29, 2021, 06:20:26 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on October 29, 2021, 05:28:46 PM

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That said, IMO, the best supers achieve this goal of supporting player ideas by giving them effects driven rulesets (HERO, M&M) rather than exception driven ones (Aberrant, AMP).  Systems where players can design their characters' powers themselves, rather than picking from an approved list (which are of course helpfully expanded with a series of supplements you are expected to buy).

I'm not familiar with the terminology, or perhaps your usage.  Would you elaborate on the relevancy of "effects-driven" vs. "exception-driven" here?     

May be my usage.

Anyway, as I understand it, effects-based systems give you a single rule framework to build anything with (HERO, M&M) while exceptions-based give you a rule framework and then make everything exceptions within it (Aberrant, Heroes Unlimited).  And while I feel strongly that effects-based systems are superior, I respect that some folks really prefer exceptions-based games.

Put another way: how do you make Wolverine in Heroes Unlimited RAW?  In HERO or M&M it's numbskull easy, but in HU mutant cyborgs aren't a class option (or wasn't last I knew).  Now, there's probably a special class or multi-class rule in some supplement somewhere, but that's the "supplement treadmill" feature of exceptions-based systems that publishers (and some players) have come to love.

(That said, as much as I hate HU, the ability to roll up a random character when you have no ideas of your own is an attractive feature.  But it's a feature M&M 3ed has in its core book as well, so effects-based systems can do random character generation too)

Anyway, another "must have" feature is the ability to have differently scaled characters work together.  How does your game handle Batman on the same team as Superman?  M&M handled it by making Batman a high end human with a ton of skills and advantages and gear.  Superman could still drop a building on Batman's head, but Batman is more useful for anything Superman can't do (disguise, knowledge skills, socialization, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum).  If I recall correctly Truth & Justice (by Atomic Sock Monkey Press) could let you go one step further and recreate those Superman and Jimmy Olsen team ups. 

When people make games that don't scale well, you end up with Exalted crossover problems (the World of Darkness games got around that by not being a shared setting, except when they were).

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(*one of these days, I keep telling myself, I'm going to work on a system free sourcebook that's nothing but super-hero apocalypses the heroes failed to stop, and what the different worlds look like afterwards.  A whole chapter devoted to supers-and-zombies for instance, exploring the difference between Marvel Zombies and the eX-Heroes novels for example, and how to work those different ideas into your own campaigns.  And then other chapters would explore more unique disaster scenarios.)

Cool! Post-apocalyptical supers where "It All Went Wrong" ala Dark Sun sounds like a great environment to explore!
[/quote]

I see it as more of a toolbox, exploring all sorts of different scenarios.  The key caveat is the idea that "supers have failed to protect the status quo", and what that means when the status quo truly was preferable and can not be simply handwaved back by the end of the story arc. 

I've been avoiding this thread because I figure it'll end up sucking my time away from work... but lemme wade in here.

I'm a Supers junkie. I used to write comics (indies, and for Image), been collecting since the late 60's until the One More Day event pretty much broke me out of the hobby. I own well over 30k comics (probably closer to 40). That said - I'm saying this only to establish when it comes to comics, I definitely have some opinions that have informed my gaming habits.

I *never* intended to ever run Supers RPG's, but when the MSH game dropped in the early 80's, naturally I was in. My sensibilities were very different than they are now, I thought the Basic System was a little TOO basic - but that's largely because I was used to the relative heavy rules of D&D. I wasn't *really* prepared for the sheer scale of MSH offered. When the Advanced Rules dropped, it clicked. Now, almost 40-years later, MSH has outlived *every* game-system at my table, even D&D. And this is not because of the system, it's not because other non-Supers systems suck, or anything, it's because my players get a taste for it after playing, and they demand it over everything else. And when it comes to systems, yes MSH is my goto, but not for want of trying others. I have learned a few things of what works and doesn't.

As someone currently working on their own in-house system, your concerns are definitely my concerns.

What Makes or Breaks a Supers TTRPG?
As you can see from the various responses that answer can be very subjective. My hot take is this - Your system must support all of the sub-genres of Supers play simultaneously. It *must* scale, and do so as effortlessly as possible.

There is a LOT to unpack here because much of this depends on understanding of genre conventions that have shifted over the decades which is why everyone's opinion of "what are Supers" shifts. The Ages of comics (Golden, Silver, Iron, Modern, heh now Post-Modern) all have very distinct conventions that you'll generally see most TTRPG systems emulating in one form or another. There is usually some "ball" that is dropped because the publisher doesn't address these conventions mechanically or narratively.

1) The system must scale from normal people to Cosmic (Superman+) level of play.

2) Maximal support for genre convention emulation based on the Age of play (with obvious rules to explain what those conventions are).

3) Minimal mechanical calculations. Nothing glazes players eyes over faster than trying to calculate velocity of the Flash trying to punch someone with the density of Superman's jaw, while running at .5 liminal speed, while calculating the friction burns in a 100-yard radius of his charging distance of 10-miles in one round. This means a solid unified task resolution that handles Moverment, Action, Defense, Outcome in as few rolls as possible.

4) Crafting - Yeah a lot of people don't think about this until it's too late. A phenomenal amount of supers make gadgets, or are mechanical in nature. This system should extend *beyond* that - to include other forms of "building things" and it should be as unified as possible by adjudicating cost based on effects, material, and strength which parallels the stats of the PC's as a yardstick. Trust me, this is the easiest way to do it. (and I'd be happy to explain in depth).

5) Non-Supers play must be supported. Contrary to what a lot of people (or no one, as I'm the only one apparently that ever says this) believe, one of the most important aspects to Supers play is what the characters do as civilians. Now... I run sandbox games, and my contention is that even IF you don't run sandbox, having content in your system that supports civilian play, only enhances your episodic games. From a sandbox perspective having civilian identities is where some of the best RP opportunities rise, and enhances the stakes of the Super's side of the game. Superman's weakness is Lois. Peter Parker warranted his own comic AS Peter Parker (Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spiderman) and his Super's identity was secondary. All the relationships, jobs, etc. that a Superhero has to contend with is part of the tension that makes the genre sing, beyond wearing tights and beating the shit out of each other and throwing people through buildings.

6) Setting verisimilitude - Whether you're playing in Gotham City, MCU NYC, Marvel's Earth 2, or whatever, you need to have the standards set on what is assumed and what the system reinforces. This gets back to understanding the Supers Conventions based on the Age. My opinion is that most people concerned with morality issues today ask the inevitable question of "Why aren't Supers killing these bad guys." Which is an obvious question to ask. But the conventions of the Silver Age, Iron Age, Modern era, all respond to that in different ways - and your system should too. These can be optional - or all happening simultaneously. Shit that goes down in Gotham isn't the same as Metropolis. One could argue that this is based on the capacities of the Supers there - or one could say that as set-locations things *are* different. Just like Detective Batman isn't really the same Batman as in the Justice League. Your system needs to be flexible enough to address these things individually or simultaneously.

7) Tropes over Realism - The design of your system should emphasize the tropes of Supers, not mechanical rigidity trying to emulate real physics. Supers is *not* about realism. It's about AMAZING! FANTASTIC! shit that could never happen, but would be awesome as fuck to see/do. Superman is not carrying a jet on his hands, he would punch a hole right through it, and it would fall apart under the stress. The Flash running at lightspeed around NYC would destroy the entire city, Batman's Utility belt could not possibly have all that gear contained within it etc.

Those are the high-points for me. The Devil is in the details, of course. My goto Supers game MSH, falls short in many of these aspects, but shines like a star in others. Hero, DC system, M&M, do the same. The REAL sauce is you as a the GM - can you master the system enough to make it all as seamless as possible? So consider ease of play in your design.

Quote from: tenbones on November 05, 2021, 11:32:17 AM
I've been avoiding this thread because I figure it'll end up sucking my time away from work... but lemme wade in here.

(snip lots of good stuff)
 

Quote from: tenbones on November 05, 2021, 11:32:17 AM
4) Crafting - Yeah a lot of people don't think about this until it's too late. A phenomenal amount of supers make gadgets, or are mechanical in nature. This system should extend *beyond* that - to include other forms of "building things" and it should be as unified as possible by adjudicating cost based on effects, material, and strength which parallels the stats of the PC's as a yardstick. Trust me, this is the easiest way to do it. (and I'd be happy to explain in depth).

This was a big problem in Aberrant.  You had super smart characters who were expected to hand wave any non-gamey creations because the rules didn't support PCs actually making stuff (at least not until a later sourcebook was released).  But once you allow crafting (be it technology, or magic, or something else), you need to consider how game breaking it can be.  If the super-inventor/super-sorcerer can just create what they need on the fly, they risk overshadowing the rest of the PCs.  And if they can mass produce their inventions for others, they'll be changing the world before the first session ends.  Balance in supers games is already a bit of pipe dream, but super crafting just begs to be abused.

Still, super crafting is a crucial element of any good supers game.