Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 09, 2022, 08:18:36 PM
I think one of the simplest ways to use damage reductions is just to treat armor as an armor save.  Warhammer and One Page Rules war games do that. 

If it works for the Ultramarines and Vampire Counts, it can work in RPGs.

Yeah. I always felt that the attack system of the Warhammer miniatures game (to-hit roll by comparing Skill, to-wound roll by comparing Str to Con, and an armor save) was a faster and more realistic way to do combat than the system in the WFRPG as well as better than almost all role playing games around.

Quote from: rhialto on October 09, 2022, 06:25:27 AM
This is similar to Stormbringer, a variant of BRP which dispensed with RuneQuest's hit locations and static armor absorption values for random armor absorption values and no hit locations. It also included more armor types and a major wound threshold.

What I don't understand about the Stormbringer system (if I remember correctly) is instead of 1 AP you get 1d4 AP for example. So when you are attacked the damage of the hit is really determined by a damage roll from the weapon and a damage roll from the armor which seems like it would be really swingy. It feels like your doubling up on the randomness for no real purpose.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 10, 2022, 09:33:06 AM

Quote from: rhialto on October 09, 2022, 06:25:27 AM
This is similar to Stormbringer, a variant of BRP which dispensed with RuneQuest's hit locations and static armor absorption values for random armor absorption values and no hit locations. It also included more armor types and a major wound threshold.

What I don't understand about the Stormbringer system (if I remember correctly) is instead of 1 AP you get 1d4 AP for example. So when you are attacked the damage of the hit is really determined by a damage roll from the weapon and a damage roll from the armor which seems like it would be really swingy. It feels like your doubling up on the randomness for no real purpose.

I saw it as an odd thing to do in place of using hit locations. I prefer hit locations.

Well, with respect to Stormbringer's randomness on armor absorption: it's reflective of a different approach from the RuneQuest "roll random hit location, then random damage roll - static armor absorption for that location" for injury effects (some of which kick in after the damage is known). I vacillate between preferring one over the other, depending on how tactical I want combat to be. Lately I've greatly preferred Stormbringer's for speed.

Randomized armor values seems appropriate if you have some kind of armor-as-DR scheme. No armor is perfect, and generally combat is pretty boring if someone has a high static DR, unless there's some kind of ablative effect (which gets into Armor-as-HP).

Adding a randomization element at least keeps it interesting.

From a narrative perspective I think randomization also helps to model differences in ability. Putting an untrained teenager in Plate Armor with DR value of 5 would make him virtually immune to a normal person wielding a 1d6 sword, just by virtue of putting on the armor. It's very unusual to me if an untrained person has the same capability in this respect as a veteran warrior.

As soon as you stop assuming that putting on armor provides a static benefit, you open yourself to considerations about skill of the wearer, conditions of the armor, luck, and other factors that a flat value handwaves away.

To me, Runequest would be the obvious answer to the OP, if you don't mind hit locations (arms legs etc). Stormbringer could work if you don't want that but would rather have a table of critical damage.

Openquest has no hit locations and static armor numbers. I like that better than the Stormbringer approach.

Quote from: Trond on October 10, 2022, 01:59:06 PM
To me, Runequest would be the obvious answer to the OP, if you don't mind hit locations (arms legs etc). Stormbringer could work if you don't want that but would rather have a table of critical damage.

I actually have Runequest 6E.  Its page count is insane.  I just can't sift thru a game that large.  I'm interested in rules light stuff.

I'm still leaning towards stealing Machinations of the Space Princess armor rules. 

I suppose this is a bit late to add, but since I'm going to change how damage vs armor works I think it might be best to list what I'm exactly going to change. Bare in mind the game in question is Star Adventurer, an OSR by RPG Pundit.

Also, I'm checking out all of the systems you guys recommended either way. 

1.  Armor class is renamed Defense, and starts low, about a 50/50 chance to hit.  As a warrior goes up in attack bonus, the Defense also goes up, so still a 50/50 chance to hit his evil twin at level-9000 as at level-1.

2.  Hit points creep up slowly.  In Star Adventurer it's like that, but the random table you use to level up had hit points as an option.  I'll change that result to something else.  Maybe a +1 to an ability score chosen randomly with a 1D6 roll.

3.  Armor is now a savings throw.  When hit it's -1D3, -1D4, and -1D6 less damage in light, medium, or heavy armor respectively.  Heavy armor also lowers you Defense by -1. 

Anybody see any issues I'm overlooking?  Thoughts.  Tips.  Etc.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 11, 2022, 10:07:35 AM
I suppose this is a bit late to add, but since I'm going to change how damage vs armor works I think it might be best to list what I'm exactly going to change. Bare in mind the game in question is Star Adventurer, an OSR by RPG Pundit.

Also, I'm checking out all of the systems you guys recommended either way. 

1.  Armor class is renamed Defense, and starts low, about a 50/50 chance to hit.  As a warrior goes up in attack bonus, the Defense also goes up, so still a 50/50 chance to hit his evil twin at level-9000 as at level-1.

2.  Hit points creep up slowly.  In Star Adventurer it's like that, but the random table you use to level up had hit points as an option.  I'll change that result to something else.  Maybe a +1 to an ability score chosen randomly with a 1D6 roll.

3.  Armor is now a savings throw.  When hit it's -1D3, -1D4, and -1D6 less damage in light, medium, or heavy armor respectively.  Heavy armor also lowers you Defense by -1. 

Anybody see any issues I'm overlooking?  Thoughts.  Tips.  Etc.

How will the Armor ST work? Maybe a full example will help. Your draft system seems workable as long as HP remain low, and this seems like less Space Opera, more Traveller-like play style.

Quote from: dbm on October 10, 2022, 03:32:05 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 09, 2022, 08:18:36 PM
I think one of the simplest ways to use damage reductions is just to treat armor as an armor save.

Dragon Warriors gives armour an Armour Rating of one to five and each weapon has a specific dice used for Armour Bypass rolls. For example, plate armour is AF5 and a dagger used d4 for armour bypass rolls while a sword uses d8. Rolling a critical hit also bypassed armour automatically so you could never be 100% immune to weapons based on your armour.

I would add to this that weapon enchantments add to both armor-piercing and damage, so a +1 dagger still has a 1-in-6 chance of piercing plate armor, even without a critical. Also, the armor piercing rules are only for physical attacks. For a lot of spells (and I believe also for some traps and fall damage) armor provides a flat damage soak instead.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 11, 2022, 10:07:35 AM
I suppose this is a bit late to add, but since I'm going to change how damage vs armor works I think it might be best to list what I'm exactly going to change. Bare in mind the game in question is Star Adventurer, an OSR by RPG Pundit.

Also, I'm checking out all of the systems you guys recommended either way. 

1.  Armor class is renamed Defense, and starts low, about a 50/50 chance to hit.  As a warrior goes up in attack bonus, the Defense also goes up, so still a 50/50 chance to hit his evil twin at level-9000 as at level-1.

2.  Hit points creep up slowly.  In Star Adventurer it's like that, but the random table you use to level up had hit points as an option.  I'll change that result to something else.  Maybe a +1 to an ability score chosen randomly with a 1D6 roll.

3.  Armor is now a savings throw.  When hit it's -1D3, -1D4, and -1D6 less damage in light, medium, or heavy armor respectively.  Heavy armor also lowers you Defense by -1. 

Anybody see any issues I'm overlooking?  Thoughts.  Tips.  Etc.

I don't know much about Star Adventurer. Is that one of those games where only warriors get a to-hit bonus increase from leveling up? If the other classes get to-hit bonuses, then I would recommend they get the commensurate defense bonuses as well.

It sounds like you're already doing this, but you would need to slow HP gain down to a crawl (possibly down to 1HP, or maybe just CON mod, per level), in order to avoid overpowering the warrior. D&D's HP gain is balanced around compensating for the fact that attack bonuses increase at a higher rate on average than AC (which you are changing).

If you are seriously restricting HP, then it'd be worth having a go-over of what ever spell (or scifi equivalent) damages there are in the game. I personally wouldn't keep the 6d6 damage lighting bolt in a game where no one has more than 20 HP. If you do end up needing to do that kind of rebalancing, then I would definitely recommend the Dragon Warriors corebook as a useful reference. That's the kind of HP range that game operates in. (I have a 4th level party in my DW campaign ATM, and I think the highest HP any of them have is around 16.)

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 11, 2022, 12:49:12 PM
I don't know much about Star Adventurer. Is that one of those games where only warriors get a to-hit bonus increase from leveling up? If the other classes get to-hit bonuses, then I would recommend they get the commensurate defense bonuses as well.

It sounds like you're already doing this, but you would need to slow HP gain down to a crawl (possibly down to 1HP, or maybe just CON mod, per level), in order to avoid overpowering the warrior. D&D's HP gain is balanced around compensating for the fact that attack bonuses increase at a higher rate on average than AC (which you are changing).

If you are seriously restricting HP, then it'd be worth having a go-over of what ever spell (or scifi equivalent) damages there are in the game. I personally wouldn't keep the 6d6 damage lighting bolt in a game where no one has more than 20 HP. If you do end up needing to do that kind of rebalancing, then I would definitely recommend the Dragon Warriors corebook as a useful reference. That's the kind of HP range that game operates in. (I have a 4th level party in my DW campaign ATM, and I think the highest HP any of them have is around 16.)

Star Adventure is an OSR that's basically Star Wars. 

The warrior classes get 2 hit points per level, and everyone else gets 1 hit point.  Your starting hit points is your Constitution + 1D12, but weaker classes use 1D10, 1D8, or even 1D6. 

As for combat bonuses, it's not so simple as your bonus for leveling up is from a random table.  In my case I'm planning to raise defense whenever you get an attack bonus.  If your skill at shooting a pistol is +5, your defense vs being shot is also +5 defense.  The short answer is attacks are 1D20 plus your skill bonus, and defense is 10 + the same bonus. 

Spells and weapons damage in Star Adventure are from 1D6 upwards of 3D6.  Most common weapons are 1D8 or 2D6 damage.

Average hit points are 10-20 at the start, but as you can see getting more isn't really something you can count on.  Starting with 16 HP as a knight will be 26 when you're level 10. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 10, 2022, 09:44:57 PM

Quote from: Trond on October 10, 2022, 01:59:06 PM
To me, Runequest would be the obvious answer to the OP, if you don't mind hit locations (arms legs etc). Stormbringer could work if you don't want that but would rather have a table of critical damage.

I actually have Runequest 6E.  Its page count is insane.  I just can't sift thru a game that large.  I'm interested in rules light stuff.

I'm still leaning towards stealing Machinations of the Space Princess armor rules.

I don't know that edition, but I always find Runequest more intuitive than D&D....and most RPGs really. There is a Quickstart version out there if you are interested, and of course PDFs of old Runequest 2 (which is fairly small but OLD) etc.

I have 10 ranks in my attack. I roll 10 dice. You have 12 ranks in your defense. You roll 12 dice.

I got 6 successes total; you got 5. You take 1 damage.