Warlock! (which is based on some older games I don't know much about) uses "Stamina" instead of hit points. Combat is an opposed skill roll, with the loser taking damage.

Damage reduces Stamina. When your Stamina goes below 0, further damage inflicts "Criticals" which are serious wounds that reduce skill and take time to heal, inflict permanent wounds or possibly death. Criticals are rolled against a table and, interestingly, different damage types (slash, crush, etc) use different tables.

Weapon damage is on the order of 1d6 or 2d6, and (finally getting to the point!) armor reduces damage by 1d3, 1d6, or 2d6 depending, but a hit will always reduce Stamina by 1. So, each round one combatant's Stamina will be reduced by at least 1.

Stamina starts at around 20 and recovery is fast.

Quote from: Jaeger on October 07, 2022, 08:55:26 PM
The Conan mongoose RPG does armor as damage reduction.

You have parry and dodge values that take the place of and function like AC. Then if you get hit, your armor reduces damage rolled.

Unfortunately the game does do escalating HP per level. But as it was based off of 3.x D&D - it should be easy enough to do a E6 mod for it.

  At least with the 1e rules for the Conan Rpg, I found the massive damage rules were a big help to remove the "bloat" of the escalating hit points and made criticals really matter.

Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:07 AM
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not.

Take into account visibility with most helmets, on average armor would make you easier to hit.

I used to play RuneQuest and OpenQuest and then I realized that AC was not about hitting, but damaging the target. Damage reduction just makes damage roles more important than hit rolls and it takes away the fun when you get a hit and the damage reduction reduces that hit to 0 nothing. You get longer slogs as each side nickel & dimes each other to death.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 07, 2022, 06:56:52 PM
My tastes in game rules are different than most of the popular games.  D&D rules are actually one of my least favorites.  I don't like increasing hit points for levels.  I think raising your skills should be how it's done as an example.

Armor is another bit I want to talk about.  I am looking for OSR games to steal rules from that don't use armor as a means to make you harder to hit.  Or to just treat armor as more hit points.  What games treat armor as a savings throw?  Or a dice roll, or fixed number that deletes damage?

The two that come to mind are the D6 series of games like West End Games Star Wars.  Or maybe Palladium Fantasy, but neither are a traditional D20 OSR game. 

Any ideas?

Honestly, the only one that comes to mind is Machinations of the Space Princess.

Talislanta.

One die (d20) one Table: 1-5 = fail. 6-10 = Partial Success. 11-20 = Total Success. 20+ = Critical success. Less than Zero = Critical Failure.
Stats: All stats are 0 is average person. They range from -5 to +5 being "human maximum".
Task Resolution: Stat modifier + Skill +d20 +Modifiers, consult the Table.

Your opponents total bonus to hit with whatever they're defending with (or Dodge skill) is the penalty to hit. GM's can add modifiers for environment etc. Gear can also affect modifiers.

Armor: Simple, armor absorbs damage on every hit. This can range Rating 1 (Padded Armor) to 7 (Kang Battle Armor). Damage values for weapons are basically the same as DnD.

So this system has Degrees of success: Partial Success = Half Damage, Critical Hit is double-damage or something heinous. Critical Failures are not just random - but based on the skill of your opponent/difficulty of the action.

Lastly - You pick your archetype and you get your base HP. They *never* go up. The only thing that goes up is your ability to attack and defend yourself.

You could port this over to DnD, or you could change DnD to resemble this. Simply make everyone's Defense Rating their total Bonus to Hit with whatever they're defending with +10. Shields absorb damage based on their size (+1 to +3). Give everyone only their Con bonus to HP per HD. Rock and Roll.

Everything else you might want - parrys, Skills etc can be tweaked/added as needed.

Edit: Oh and most importantly - it's all free: www.talislanta.com

Not strictly an OSR game, but Radiance (which is a D20 game) uses armor as damage reduction. Instead of AC, the game transmogrifies the Fortitude/Reflex/Will saves into defensive numbers and uses them for all kinds of attacks.

I'd have to go digging to look, but I would bet there are other games from the D20 SRD era that have armor soak rules as well.

EDIT: Also not an OSR game, but Dragon Warriors uses an Armor Bypass roll. (so if plate armor is rated as Armor 5, a longsword rolls a D8 for armor penetration, and has to beat that number to do damage). Personally, I kind of prefer armor saves or armor-piercing rolls. Armor soak makes sense for blunt force trauma, but a sword attacking a man in plate armor is probably going to either find a gap in the armor, or do no damage at all. Both systems add an additional step to the hit resolution roll, but I find that rolling an extra die is something most players can do as fast or faster than remembering to calculate their armor soak. I also think it's a better fit for a low HP game. If players are going to be restricted to only  handful of HP, I think better armor and skills should increase the chance of them taking no damage at all when attacked.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 01:03:04 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:07 AM
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not.

Take into account visibility with most helmets, on average armor would make you easier to hit.

Only three out of the seven historical types of helmets restrict vision. And at least one of the ones that restricts vision was, of course, specifically for jousting. https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/

From reading and talking to people who have been in gunfights, I'm not sure restricted vision even matters much, as most people seem to get some sort of tunnel vision or another. (One guy that trains Navy Seals, law enforcement and civilians said the only thing he saw during a gunfight was his front sight.)

Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 02:28:07 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 01:03:04 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:07 AM
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not.

Take into account visibility with most helmets, on average armor would make you easier to hit.

Only three out of the seven historical types of helmets restrict vision. And at least one of the ones that restricts vision was, of course, specifically for jousting. https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/

From reading and talking to people who have been in gunfights, I'm not sure restricted vision even matters much, as most people seem to get some sort of tunnel vision or another. (One guy that trains Navy Seals, law enforcement and civilians said the only thing he saw during a gunfight was his front sight.)

Something people sometimes don't consider about helmets is that they restrict not only your vision but also your hearing. Full-head helmets like the great helm, barbute, or Corinthian helmet, would probably limit both sight and hearing, as well as breathing and your ability to be heard by others. Visor-optional helmets, like the bascinet, sallet, or armet (don't ask me why they all have French names) would probably only restrict hearing, as long as the visor is worn up or not used at all. Top-of-head helmets like the kettle hat and nasal helmet (as well as cheekflap helmets like the spangenhelm or the Roman style helmet) would probably restrict neither, but it's worth mentioning that at least the nasal helmet would often be worn with a padded and mail coif underneath it, which would still muffle sound.

As far as how restricted vision affects a fight. The type of vision restricted by most historical helmets is peripheral vision. That doesn't matter much when shooting, but is hugely important in hand-to-hand. A cop or a modern soldier might not care, but if you go ask a pro boxer how important peripheral vision is, you'll get a very different answer. I've done a bit of historical fencing, and I can tell you that especially against long weapons like two-handed swords, peripheral vision is vital.

I've seen a few games try to replicate that effect with penalties to your perception score for certain helmets. I know WFRP does it, and I think Castles & Crusades might as well. But I think most people find that the extra bit of simulation isn't worth the extra bookkeeping.

EDIT: On the subject of mobility: Any amount of armor is going to restrict your movements to some extent. Even a gambeson limits you a bit, albeit not much more than a heavy sweater. I would argue, though, that is balanced out by the fact that armor means there are fewer viable means of attacking you. So on average, I don't think the difference is meaningful enough to reflect it in the combat rules. The only penalties I put onto people wearing armor are in things like swimming and pursuit rules.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 08, 2022, 03:54:46 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 02:28:07 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 01:03:04 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:07 AM
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not.

Take into account visibility with most helmets, on average armor would make you easier to hit.

Only three out of the seven historical types of helmets restrict vision. And at least one of the ones that restricts vision was, of course, specifically for jousting. https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/

From reading and talking to people who have been in gunfights, I'm not sure restricted vision even matters much, as most people seem to get some sort of tunnel vision or another. (One guy that trains Navy Seals, law enforcement and civilians said the only thing he saw during a gunfight was his front sight.)

Something people sometimes don't consider about helmets is that they restrict not only your vision but also your hearing. Full-head helmets like the great helm, barbute, or Corinthian helmet, would probably limit both sight and hearing, as well as breathing and your ability to be heard by others. Visor-optional helmets, like the bascinet, sallet, or armet (don't ask me why they all have French names) would probably only restrict hearing, as long as the visor is worn up or not used at all. Top-of-head helmets like the kettle hat and nasal helmet (as well as cheekflap helmets like the spangenhelm or the Roman style helmet) would probably restrict neither, but it's worth mentioning that at least the nasal helmet would often be worn with a padded and mail coif underneath it, which would still muffle sound.

As far as how restricted vision affects a fight. The type of vision restricted by most historical helmets is peripheral vision. That doesn't matter much when shooting, but is hugely important in hand-to-hand. A cop or a modern soldier might not care, but if you go ask a pro boxer how important peripheral vision is, you'll get a very different answer. I've done a bit of historical fencing, and I can tell you that especially against long weapons like two-handed swords, peripheral vision is vital.

Actually, when you read a history of armor and helmets, often the second iteration of a style has openings for the ears.

As for the restricted vision -- the point is that the mild visual restriction (if any, since many helmets don't) doesn't matter for most people, because they get tunnel vision -- whether focused on any enemy or a front sight.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 07, 2022, 06:56:52 PMWhat games treat armor as a savings throw?

I switched to an all-or-nothing Armor Save for my OD&D game because of my experience using damage reduction armor rules in Runequest. A DR value of 4, for example, will make d4 weapons completely useless while 1d8 weapons will only be reduced to zero half the time. The result of these rules was the every character chose to wield the maximum value weapon so as to minimize the effect of the damage reduction. But an all-or-nothing armor save will have the exact same effect on all weapons, thus allowing the players more freedom to chose which weapon they want to use.

The way it's done in Machinations of the Space Princess is that armor has a dice code. In other words, it's variable. 

Light armor is -1D3 damage, medium is -1D4, and heavy is -1D6 and -1 to your own Defense number (aka Armor Class to most D20 players). 

It should be said that MotSP has two Defense Ratings.  One for Melee, and another Ranged combat.  A martial artist would have a high Melee Defense, while a pilot would have a high Ranged Defense when flying his fighter around. 

Quote from: Wisithir on October 08, 2022, 12:06:10 AM
I'll give explaining Mekton armor a try.

The fragile bits protected by armor have HP. Armor has HP, and a hardness. When receiving damage, the damage incurred by the bits covered in armor is reduced by the HP of the armor, and if damage is greater than the hardness of the armor, the armor's HP is reduced as well.

This is pretty close to it.

Once damage exceeds the armor Stopping Power, the remaining damage goes through to the target. Any damage that strikes armor in a particular location, reduces that location's armor by a point.

T4, T5, and MgT armor works the same way but does to ablat when hit (except for the specific Ablative armor).

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 08, 2022, 06:52:50 PM
The way it's done in Machinations of the Space Princess is that armor has a dice code. In other words, it's variable. 

Light armor is -1D3 damage, medium is -1D4, and heavy is -1D6 and -1 to your own Defense number (aka Armor Class to most D20 players). 

It should be said that MotSP has two Defense Ratings.  One for Melee, and another Ranged combat.  A martial artist would have a high Melee Defense, while a pilot would have a high Ranged Defense when flying his fighter around.

This is similar to Stormbringer, a variant of BRP which dispensed with RuneQuest's hit locations and static armor absorption values for random armor absorption values and no hit locations. It also included more armor types and a major wound threshold.

Two of my favored systems have armor as damage reduction, Alternity and Genesys (Star Wars).  Alternity is a long-dead system but I'm spiteful about it so I'm including it anyways.

Alternity: The target's dodginess inflicts a penalty on the to-hit roll.  The degree of success on the roll determines the damage the weapon does; an amazing success with a knife can outdamage a marginal success with a laser cannon.  The armor then absorbs some amount of the incoming damage, but, and this detail I really like, there is secondary damage.  So if your breastplate eats a bullet, it might block all of the incoming wound damage, but a lesser amount of stun damage would still be inflicted, 'cause you still got thumped in the chest with a supersonic projectile.  I liked the realism involved in not being able to just bullet sponge indefinitely.

Genesys: Armor can add a flat value to soak incoming damage and/or inflict a penalty to the attacker's roll.  Certain attacks can ignore certain amounts of armor, getting behind cover adds more penalty dice to attackers, it's a pretty good amount of realism without going too deep into nuts and bolts.

I think one of the simplest ways to use damage reductions is just to treat armor as an armor save.  Warhammer and One Page Rules war games do that. 

If it works for the Ultramarines and Vampire Counts, it can work in RPGs. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 09, 2022, 08:18:36 PM
I think one of the simplest ways to use damage reductions is just to treat armor as an armor save.

Dragon Warriors gives armour an Armour Rating of one to five and each weapon has a specific dice used for Armour Bypass rolls. For example, plate armour is AF5 and a dagger used d4 for armour bypass rolls while a sword uses d8. Rolling a critical hit also bypassed armour automatically so you could never be 100% immune to weapons based on your armour.