My tastes in game rules are different than most of the popular games. D&D rules are actually one of my least favorites. I don't like increasing hit points for levels. I think raising your skills should be how it's done as an example.
Armor is another bit I want to talk about. I am looking for OSR games to steal rules from that don't use armor as a means to make you harder to hit. Or to just treat armor as more hit points. What games treat armor as a savings throw? Or a dice roll, or fixed number that deletes damage?
The two that come to mind are the D6 series of games like West End Games Star Wars. Or maybe Palladium Fantasy, but neither are a traditional D20 OSR game.
Any ideas?
Honestly, the only one that comes to mind is Machinations of the Space Princess.
Mongoose Traveller (both editions), T4, T5, and the entire Mekton and Cyberpunk lines of games from RTG.
The Conan mongoose RPG does armor as damage reduction.
You have parry and dodge values that take the place of and function like AC. Then if you get hit, your armor reduces damage rolled.
Unfortunately the game does do escalating HP per level. But as it was based off of 3.x D&D - it should be easy enough to do a E6 mod for it.
Hackmaster armor does straight damage reduction. It's a pretty different system from OSR, though, so I don't know how much you can smuggle in.
A lot of this goes back to my RPG system I grew up with. Palladium Books. In Palladium the main three things were Strike vs Parry or Dodge. There was armor class too, but that was just a bunch of extra hit points if hit, but a good roll over it would bypass it and hurt you directly. You mostly relied on your parry and dodge to just not be hit at all. Those three stats were what mattered.
I saw a video on YouTube today where the topic was about more realism for armor in the D&D D20 system. Armor should make you easier to hit, but usually make you take little or no damage. Usually. You could take full damage as well. I have a few OSR games I want to try someday, but I'm looking to modify them to be more my own play style. I need games to steal ideas from.
I like to be critical of D&D, but I'll grant them some credit for D&D 5E. The armor traits that limit your Dexterity bonus when wearing heavy armor is a step in the right direction. Most OSR games don't do have anything for armor other than it's AC and price.
Quote from: jeff37923 on October 07, 2022, 07:38:53 PM
Mongoose Traveller (both editions), T4, T5, and the entire Mekton and Cyberpunk lines of games from RTG.
I'll have to read my Mekton Zeta PDF. I never played it. I have only a vague idea of how that works.
Quote from: Zaph on October 07, 2022, 09:04:51 PM
Hackmaster armor does straight damage reduction. It's a pretty different system from OSR, though, so I don't know how much you can smuggle in.
Based on his follow up comment... I do think he should check out Hackmaster. There is a free "Hackmaster Basic" PDF you can get to read the mechanics.
HP progression is slower (you re-roll your prior die, then gain a new one at alternating levels.) attacks are opposed rolls and combat uses a per second "count up" that I really like.
A little more info here and a link to that free PDF here it is (https://kenzerco.com/hackmaster/)
I'll give explaining Mekton armor a try.
The fragile bits protected by armor have HP. Armor has HP, and a hardness. When receiving damage, the damage incurred by the bits covered in armor is reduced by the HP of the armor, and if damage is greater than the hardness of the armor, the armor's HP is reduced as well.
Combat is an opposed skill roll, with multiple defensive options, and degree of success can bypass armor protection or trigger rolls on progressively nastier critical hit tables.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 07, 2022, 06:56:52 PM
Armor is another bit I want to talk about. I am looking for OSR games to steal rules from that don't use armor as a means to make you harder to hit. Or to just treat armor as more hit points. What games treat armor as a savings throw? Or a dice roll, or fixed number that deletes damage?
Chainmail and one of its derivatives,
Spellcraft & Swordplay, treat armor as a "roll to damage", with modifiers for weapon vs. armor type. If you consider
Classic Traveller OSR then it also provides weapon vs. armor type as a modifier to damage, but works best when you separate the to-hit roll from the to-damage roll (the "Double-Tap" house rule from the Citizens of the Imperium board).
Palladium (for all its faults) does it somewhat with it's AR.
When I stole the idea for my own experiments some years ago, I added CR too. CR is the "coverage rating", while AR is the "damage absorption". The CR acts as a modifier to the to-hit roll. If you roll above the CR, you bypass the armor and all the damage goes straight to the character's HP. Otherwise, the armor reduces the damage by an amount equal to its AR. If the damage exceeds the armor's AR, then it has to make a saving throw or have its CR reduced by a point until it's repaired. This is cumulative until the armor is destroyed. Wasn't perfect by any means, but it worked alright I guess.
I used hit locations for a while, so people could put together piecemeal armor. That bogged the game down too much though (imo). I also never figured out a good way to implement armor layering without it being too mechanically cumbersome. The way I figure it, computer games are for extreme simulationism these days, and tabletop games have to be a little more abstract to keep play moving along. In my opinion, anyway.
I remember there were some pretty good rules for d20 that converted armor into a DR type system without having to rejigger anything else. Can't remember who published it though. I recall it was called "Armor as DR".
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 07, 2022, 10:03:42 PM
A lot of this goes back to my RPG system I grew up with. Palladium Books. In Palladium the main three things were Strike vs Parry or Dodge. There was armor class too, but that was just a bunch of extra hit points if hit, but a good roll over it would bypass it and hurt you directly. You mostly relied on your parry and dodge to just not be hit at all. Those three stats were what mattered.
I saw a video on YouTube today where the topic was about more realism for armor in the D&D D20 system. Armor should make you easier to hit, but usually make you take little or no damage. Usually. You could take full damage as well. I have a few OSR games I want to try someday, but I'm looking to modify them to be more my own play style. I need games to steal ideas from.
I like to be critical of D&D, but I'll grant them some credit for D&D 5E. The armor traits that limit your Dexterity bonus when wearing heavy armor is a step in the right direction. Most OSR games don't do have anything for armor other than it's AC and price.
Steep limits to Dex bonus or increased chances of getting hit for wearing armor are actually not realistic, but based on gamist logic, much like the weapon Speed Factors used in AD&D (daggers wouldn't strike before a sword in real life, cuz reach has a far bigger impact on who attacks first than speed). These are things that intuitively seem like they would work that way to people who've never actually worn armor or used weapons, or done any research on them, but in real life actually work completely differently.
Armor in real life was crafted with great care to provide proper articulation and mobility, and actually didn't impede movement nearly as much as gamers believe (maybe by a minor amount, but nowhere near the steep penalties used in many RPGs). There are YouTube videos on this. The real issue was cost, maintenance, encumbrance, exhaustion and heat, as well as social issues (it wasn't socially appropriate for random travelers to strut around in heavy armor inside a city, and guards would probably have stopped them for questioning if they did so).
Wearing armor for extended periods of time can be exhausting and may dehydrate you. Realistic armor rules would impose exhaustion on characters for wearing armor for hours, as well as encumbrance related penalties for carrying extra loads on top of armor, but only impose minimal movement related penalties for wearing heavy armor.
Quote from: VisionStorm on October 08, 2022, 09:11:31 AM
Wearing armor for extended periods of time can be exhausting and may dehydrate you. Realistic armor rules would impose exhaustion on characters for wearing armor for hours, as well as encumbrance related penalties for carrying extra loads on top of armor, but only impose minimal movement related penalties for wearing heavy armor.
The movement related penalties is a simplification, as I see it. Carrying that much weight is a simple hike is tiring (try walking with a 20 lb dumbell on each hand, or a 40 lb backpack, for one hour), so the average speed (of dungeon exploration, overland travel, etc.) is significantly reduced. If one were to wear armor only for a duel, for example I agree that penalties in movement could be reduced.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 07, 2022, 10:03:42 PMArmor should make you easier to hit, but usually make you take little or no damage.
That is pretty much exactly how armour works in RoleMaster - heavy armours make you more likely to be hit for a few HP of damage but make it unlikely that you will take a lot of HP or a higher level of critical (and critical results are typically what kill you in RM).
FWIW I just wrote a small critical hit table that takes margin of success - and thus, armor - into account. Meaning, good armor protects you from critical hits (less damage). It still uses AC, however.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/10/the-simplest-critical-hit-table-osr-etc.html
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 07, 2022, 10:03:42 PM
I saw a video on YouTube today where the topic was about more realism for armor in the D&D D20 system. Armor should make you easier to hit, but usually make you take little or no damage.
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not. And the other kind of armor is for very specific situations, like formal duels on horseback, where is it not a disadvantage.
Warlock! (which is based on some older games I don't know much about) uses "Stamina" instead of hit points. Combat is an opposed skill roll, with the loser taking damage.
Damage reduces Stamina. When your Stamina goes below 0, further damage inflicts "Criticals" which are serious wounds that reduce skill and take time to heal, inflict permanent wounds or possibly death. Criticals are rolled against a table and, interestingly, different damage types (slash, crush, etc) use different tables.
Weapon damage is on the order of 1d6 or 2d6, and (finally getting to the point!) armor reduces damage by 1d3, 1d6, or 2d6 depending, but a hit will always reduce Stamina by 1. So, each round one combatant's Stamina will be reduced by at least 1.
Stamina starts at around 20 and recovery is fast.
Quote from: Jaeger on October 07, 2022, 08:55:26 PM
The Conan mongoose RPG does armor as damage reduction.
You have parry and dodge values that take the place of and function like AC. Then if you get hit, your armor reduces damage rolled.
Unfortunately the game does do escalating HP per level. But as it was based off of 3.x D&D - it should be easy enough to do a E6 mod for it.
At least with the 1e rules for the Conan Rpg, I found the massive damage rules were a big help to remove the "bloat" of the escalating hit points and made criticals really matter.
Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:07 AM
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not.
Take into account visibility with most helmets, on average armor would make you easier to hit.
I used to play RuneQuest and OpenQuest and then I realized that AC was not about hitting, but damaging the target. Damage reduction just makes damage roles more important than hit rolls and it takes away the fun when you get a hit and the damage reduction reduces that hit to 0 nothing. You get longer slogs as each side nickel & dimes each other to death.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 07, 2022, 06:56:52 PM
My tastes in game rules are different than most of the popular games. D&D rules are actually one of my least favorites. I don't like increasing hit points for levels. I think raising your skills should be how it's done as an example.
Armor is another bit I want to talk about. I am looking for OSR games to steal rules from that don't use armor as a means to make you harder to hit. Or to just treat armor as more hit points. What games treat armor as a savings throw? Or a dice roll, or fixed number that deletes damage?
The two that come to mind are the D6 series of games like West End Games Star Wars. Or maybe Palladium Fantasy, but neither are a traditional D20 OSR game.
Any ideas?
Honestly, the only one that comes to mind is Machinations of the Space Princess.
Talislanta.
One die (d20) one Table: 1-5 = fail. 6-10 = Partial Success. 11-20 = Total Success. 20+ = Critical success. Less than Zero = Critical Failure.
Stats: All stats are 0 is average person. They range from -5 to +5 being "human maximum".
Task Resolution: Stat modifier + Skill +d20 +Modifiers, consult the Table.
Your opponents total bonus to hit with whatever they're defending with (or Dodge skill) is the penalty to hit. GM's can add modifiers for environment etc. Gear can also affect modifiers.
Armor: Simple, armor absorbs damage on every hit. This can range Rating 1 (Padded Armor) to 7 (Kang Battle Armor). Damage values for weapons are basically the same as DnD.
So this system has Degrees of success: Partial Success = Half Damage, Critical Hit is double-damage or something heinous. Critical Failures are not just random - but based on the skill of your opponent/difficulty of the action.
Lastly - You pick your archetype and you get your base HP. They *never* go up. The only thing that goes up is your ability to attack and defend yourself.
You could port this over to DnD, or you could change DnD to resemble this. Simply make everyone's Defense Rating their total Bonus to Hit with whatever they're defending with +10. Shields absorb damage based on their size (+1 to +3). Give everyone only their Con bonus to HP per HD. Rock and Roll.
Everything else you might want - parrys, Skills etc can be tweaked/added as needed.
Edit: Oh and most importantly - it's all free: www.talislanta.com
Not strictly an OSR game, but Radiance (which is a D20 game) uses armor as damage reduction. Instead of AC, the game transmogrifies the Fortitude/Reflex/Will saves into defensive numbers and uses them for all kinds of attacks.
I'd have to go digging to look, but I would bet there are other games from the D20 SRD era that have armor soak rules as well.
EDIT: Also not an OSR game, but Dragon Warriors uses an Armor Bypass roll. (so if plate armor is rated as Armor 5, a longsword rolls a D8 for armor penetration, and has to beat that number to do damage). Personally, I kind of prefer armor saves or armor-piercing rolls. Armor soak makes sense for blunt force trauma, but a sword attacking a man in plate armor is probably going to either find a gap in the armor, or do no damage at all. Both systems add an additional step to the hit resolution roll, but I find that rolling an extra die is something most players can do as fast or faster than remembering to calculate their armor soak. I also think it's a better fit for a low HP game. If players are going to be restricted to only handful of HP, I think better armor and skills should increase the chance of them taking no damage at all when attacked.
Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:07 AM
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not.
Take into account visibility with most helmets, on average armor would make you easier to hit.
Only three out of the seven historical types of helmets restrict vision. And at least one of the ones that restricts vision was, of course, specifically for jousting. https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/ (https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/)
From reading and talking to people who have been in gunfights, I'm not sure restricted vision even matters much, as most people seem to get some sort of tunnel vision or another. (One guy that trains Navy Seals, law enforcement and civilians said the only thing he saw during a gunfight was his front sight.)
Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 02:28:07 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:07 AM
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not.
Take into account visibility with most helmets, on average armor would make you easier to hit.
Only three out of the seven historical types of helmets restrict vision. And at least one of the ones that restricts vision was, of course, specifically for jousting. https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/ (https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/)
From reading and talking to people who have been in gunfights, I'm not sure restricted vision even matters much, as most people seem to get some sort of tunnel vision or another. (One guy that trains Navy Seals, law enforcement and civilians said the only thing he saw during a gunfight was his front sight.)
Something people sometimes don't consider about helmets is that they restrict not only your vision but also your hearing. Full-head helmets like the great helm, barbute, or Corinthian helmet, would probably limit both sight and hearing, as well as breathing and your ability to be heard by others. Visor-optional helmets, like the bascinet, sallet, or armet (don't ask me why they all have French names) would probably only restrict hearing, as long as the visor is worn up or not used at all. Top-of-head helmets like the kettle hat and nasal helmet (as well as cheekflap helmets like the spangenhelm or the Roman style helmet) would probably restrict neither, but it's worth mentioning that at least the nasal helmet would often be worn with a padded and mail coif underneath it, which would still muffle sound.
As far as how restricted vision affects a fight. The type of vision restricted by most historical helmets is peripheral vision. That doesn't matter much when shooting, but is hugely important in hand-to-hand. A cop or a modern soldier might not care, but if you go ask a pro boxer how important peripheral vision is, you'll get a very different answer. I've done a bit of historical fencing, and I can tell you that especially against long weapons like two-handed swords, peripheral vision is vital.
I've seen a few games try to replicate that effect with penalties to your perception score for certain helmets. I know WFRP does it, and I think Castles & Crusades might as well. But I think most people find that the extra bit of simulation isn't worth the extra bookkeeping.
EDIT: On the subject of mobility: Any amount of armor is going to restrict your movements to some extent. Even a gambeson limits you a bit, albeit not much more than a heavy sweater. I would argue, though, that is balanced out by the fact that armor means there are fewer viable means of attacking you. So on average, I don't think the difference is meaningful enough to reflect it in the combat rules. The only penalties I put onto people wearing armor are in things like swimming and pursuit rules.
Quote from: ForgottenF on October 08, 2022, 03:54:46 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 02:28:07 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on October 08, 2022, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: Tod13 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:07 AM
Is that a typo? "Make you easier to hit"? Have you seen the historical guys wearing armor doing all sorts of athletic stuff? Very specific armor might make you "easier" to hit, but most does not.
Take into account visibility with most helmets, on average armor would make you easier to hit.
Only three out of the seven historical types of helmets restrict vision. And at least one of the ones that restricts vision was, of course, specifically for jousting. https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/ (https://medievalbritain.com/type/medieval-life/weapons/medieval-helmet/)
From reading and talking to people who have been in gunfights, I'm not sure restricted vision even matters much, as most people seem to get some sort of tunnel vision or another. (One guy that trains Navy Seals, law enforcement and civilians said the only thing he saw during a gunfight was his front sight.)
Something people sometimes don't consider about helmets is that they restrict not only your vision but also your hearing. Full-head helmets like the great helm, barbute, or Corinthian helmet, would probably limit both sight and hearing, as well as breathing and your ability to be heard by others. Visor-optional helmets, like the bascinet, sallet, or armet (don't ask me why they all have French names) would probably only restrict hearing, as long as the visor is worn up or not used at all. Top-of-head helmets like the kettle hat and nasal helmet (as well as cheekflap helmets like the spangenhelm or the Roman style helmet) would probably restrict neither, but it's worth mentioning that at least the nasal helmet would often be worn with a padded and mail coif underneath it, which would still muffle sound.
As far as how restricted vision affects a fight. The type of vision restricted by most historical helmets is peripheral vision. That doesn't matter much when shooting, but is hugely important in hand-to-hand. A cop or a modern soldier might not care, but if you go ask a pro boxer how important peripheral vision is, you'll get a very different answer. I've done a bit of historical fencing, and I can tell you that especially against long weapons like two-handed swords, peripheral vision is vital.
Actually, when you read a history of armor and helmets, often the second iteration of a style has openings for the ears.
As for the restricted vision -- the point is that the mild visual restriction (if any, since many helmets don't) doesn't matter for most people, because they get tunnel vision -- whether focused on any enemy or a front sight.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 07, 2022, 06:56:52 PMWhat games treat armor as a savings throw?
I switched to an all-or-nothing Armor Save for my OD&D game because of my experience using damage reduction armor rules in Runequest. A DR value of 4, for example, will make d4 weapons completely useless while 1d8 weapons will only be reduced to zero half the time. The result of these rules was the every character chose to wield the maximum value weapon so as to minimize the effect of the damage reduction. But an all-or-nothing armor save will have the exact same effect on all weapons, thus allowing the players more freedom to chose which weapon they want to use.
The way it's done in Machinations of the Space Princess is that armor has a dice code. In other words, it's variable.
Light armor is -1D3 damage, medium is -1D4, and heavy is -1D6 and -1 to your own Defense number (aka Armor Class to most D20 players).
It should be said that MotSP has two Defense Ratings. One for Melee, and another Ranged combat. A martial artist would have a high Melee Defense, while a pilot would have a high Ranged Defense when flying his fighter around.
Quote from: Wisithir on October 08, 2022, 12:06:10 AM
I'll give explaining Mekton armor a try.
The fragile bits protected by armor have HP. Armor has HP, and a hardness. When receiving damage, the damage incurred by the bits covered in armor is reduced by the HP of the armor, and if damage is greater than the hardness of the armor, the armor's HP is reduced as well.
This is pretty close to it.
Once damage exceeds the armor Stopping Power, the remaining damage goes through to the target. Any damage that strikes armor in a particular location, reduces that location's armor by a point.
T4, T5, and MgT armor works the same way but does to ablat when hit (except for the specific Ablative armor).
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 08, 2022, 06:52:50 PM
The way it's done in Machinations of the Space Princess is that armor has a dice code. In other words, it's variable.
Light armor is -1D3 damage, medium is -1D4, and heavy is -1D6 and -1 to your own Defense number (aka Armor Class to most D20 players).
It should be said that MotSP has two Defense Ratings. One for Melee, and another Ranged combat. A martial artist would have a high Melee Defense, while a pilot would have a high Ranged Defense when flying his fighter around.
This is similar to
Stormbringer, a variant of
BRP which dispensed with
RuneQuest's hit locations and static armor absorption values for random armor absorption values and no hit locations. It also included more armor types and a major wound threshold.
Two of my favored systems have armor as damage reduction, Alternity and Genesys (Star Wars). Alternity is a long-dead system but I'm spiteful about it so I'm including it anyways.
Alternity: The target's dodginess inflicts a penalty on the to-hit roll. The degree of success on the roll determines the damage the weapon does; an amazing success with a knife can outdamage a marginal success with a laser cannon. The armor then absorbs some amount of the incoming damage, but, and this detail I really like, there is secondary damage. So if your breastplate eats a bullet, it might block all of the incoming wound damage, but a lesser amount of stun damage would still be inflicted, 'cause you still got thumped in the chest with a supersonic projectile. I liked the realism involved in not being able to just bullet sponge indefinitely.
Genesys: Armor can add a flat value to soak incoming damage and/or inflict a penalty to the attacker's roll. Certain attacks can ignore certain amounts of armor, getting behind cover adds more penalty dice to attackers, it's a pretty good amount of realism without going too deep into nuts and bolts.
I think one of the simplest ways to use damage reductions is just to treat armor as an armor save. Warhammer and One Page Rules war games do that.
If it works for the Ultramarines and Vampire Counts, it can work in RPGs.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 09, 2022, 08:18:36 PM
I think one of the simplest ways to use damage reductions is just to treat armor as an armor save.
Dragon Warriors gives armour an Armour Rating of one to five and each weapon has a specific dice used for Armour Bypass rolls. For example, plate armour is AF5 and a dagger used d4 for armour bypass rolls while a sword uses d8. Rolling a critical hit also bypassed armour automatically so you could never be 100% immune to weapons based on your armour.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 09, 2022, 08:18:36 PM
I think one of the simplest ways to use damage reductions is just to treat armor as an armor save. Warhammer and One Page Rules war games do that.
If it works for the Ultramarines and Vampire Counts, it can work in RPGs.
Yeah. I always felt that the attack system of the Warhammer miniatures game (to-hit roll by comparing Skill, to-wound roll by comparing Str to Con, and an armor save) was a faster and more realistic way to do combat than the system in the WFRPG as well as better than almost all role playing games around.
Quote from: rhialto on October 09, 2022, 06:25:27 AM
This is similar to Stormbringer, a variant of BRP which dispensed with RuneQuest's hit locations and static armor absorption values for random armor absorption values and no hit locations. It also included more armor types and a major wound threshold.
What I don't understand about the Stormbringer system (if I remember correctly) is instead of 1 AP you get 1d4 AP for example. So when you are attacked the damage of the hit is really determined by a damage roll from the weapon and a damage roll from the armor which seems like it would be really swingy. It feels like your doubling up on the randomness for no real purpose.
Quote from: Ruprecht on October 10, 2022, 09:33:06 AM
Quote from: rhialto on October 09, 2022, 06:25:27 AM
This is similar to Stormbringer, a variant of BRP which dispensed with RuneQuest's hit locations and static armor absorption values for random armor absorption values and no hit locations. It also included more armor types and a major wound threshold.
What I don't understand about the Stormbringer system (if I remember correctly) is instead of 1 AP you get 1d4 AP for example. So when you are attacked the damage of the hit is really determined by a damage roll from the weapon and a damage roll from the armor which seems like it would be really swingy. It feels like your doubling up on the randomness for no real purpose.
I saw it as an odd thing to do in place of using hit locations. I prefer hit locations.
Well, with respect to Stormbringer's
Randomized armor values seems appropriate if you have some kind of armor-as-DR scheme. No armor is perfect, and generally combat is pretty boring if someone has a high static DR, unless there's some kind of ablative effect (which gets into Armor-as-HP).
Adding a randomization element at least keeps it interesting.
From a narrative perspective I think randomization also helps to model differences in ability. Putting an untrained teenager in Plate Armor with DR value of 5 would make him virtually immune to a normal person wielding a 1d6 sword, just by virtue of putting on the armor. It's very unusual to me if an untrained person has the same capability in this respect as a veteran warrior.
As soon as you stop assuming that putting on armor provides a static benefit, you open yourself to considerations about skill of the wearer, conditions of the armor, luck, and other factors that a flat value handwaves away.
To me, Runequest would be the obvious answer to the OP, if you don't mind hit locations (arms legs etc). Stormbringer could work if you don't want that but would rather have a table of critical damage.
Openquest has no hit locations and static armor numbers. I like that better than the Stormbringer approach.
Quote from: Trond on October 10, 2022, 01:59:06 PM
To me, Runequest would be the obvious answer to the OP, if you don't mind hit locations (arms legs etc). Stormbringer could work if you don't want that but would rather have a table of critical damage.
I actually have Runequest 6E. Its page count is insane. I just can't sift thru a game that large. I'm interested in rules light stuff.
I'm still leaning towards stealing Machinations of the Space Princess armor rules.
I suppose this is a bit late to add, but since I'm going to change how damage vs armor works I think it might be best to list what I'm exactly going to change. Bare in mind the game in question is Star Adventurer, an OSR by RPG Pundit.
Also, I'm checking out all of the systems you guys recommended either way.
1. Armor class is renamed Defense, and starts low, about a 50/50 chance to hit. As a warrior goes up in attack bonus, the Defense also goes up, so still a 50/50 chance to hit his evil twin at level-9000 as at level-1.
2. Hit points creep up slowly. In Star Adventurer it's like that, but the random table you use to level up had hit points as an option. I'll change that result to something else. Maybe a +1 to an ability score chosen randomly with a 1D6 roll.
3. Armor is now a savings throw. When hit it's -1D3, -1D4, and -1D6 less damage in light, medium, or heavy armor respectively. Heavy armor also lowers you Defense by -1.
Anybody see any issues I'm overlooking? Thoughts. Tips. Etc.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 11, 2022, 10:07:35 AM
I suppose this is a bit late to add, but since I'm going to change how damage vs armor works I think it might be best to list what I'm exactly going to change. Bare in mind the game in question is Star Adventurer, an OSR by RPG Pundit.
Also, I'm checking out all of the systems you guys recommended either way.
1. Armor class is renamed Defense, and starts low, about a 50/50 chance to hit. As a warrior goes up in attack bonus, the Defense also goes up, so still a 50/50 chance to hit his evil twin at level-9000 as at level-1.
2. Hit points creep up slowly. In Star Adventurer it's like that, but the random table you use to level up had hit points as an option. I'll change that result to something else. Maybe a +1 to an ability score chosen randomly with a 1D6 roll.
3. Armor is now a savings throw. When hit it's -1D3, -1D4, and -1D6 less damage in light, medium, or heavy armor respectively. Heavy armor also lowers you Defense by -1.
Anybody see any issues I'm overlooking? Thoughts. Tips. Etc.
How will the Armor ST work? Maybe a full example will help. Your draft system seems workable as long as HP remain low, and this seems like less Space Opera, more Traveller-like play style.
Quote from: dbm on October 10, 2022, 03:32:05 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 09, 2022, 08:18:36 PM
I think one of the simplest ways to use damage reductions is just to treat armor as an armor save.
Dragon Warriors gives armour an Armour Rating of one to five and each weapon has a specific dice used for Armour Bypass rolls. For example, plate armour is AF5 and a dagger used d4 for armour bypass rolls while a sword uses d8. Rolling a critical hit also bypassed armour automatically so you could never be 100% immune to weapons based on your armour.
I would add to this that weapon enchantments add to both armor-piercing and damage, so a +1 dagger still has a 1-in-6 chance of piercing plate armor, even without a critical. Also, the armor piercing rules are only for physical attacks. For a lot of spells (and I believe also for some traps and fall damage) armor provides a flat damage soak instead.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 11, 2022, 10:07:35 AM
I suppose this is a bit late to add, but since I'm going to change how damage vs armor works I think it might be best to list what I'm exactly going to change. Bare in mind the game in question is Star Adventurer, an OSR by RPG Pundit.
Also, I'm checking out all of the systems you guys recommended either way.
1. Armor class is renamed Defense, and starts low, about a 50/50 chance to hit. As a warrior goes up in attack bonus, the Defense also goes up, so still a 50/50 chance to hit his evil twin at level-9000 as at level-1.
2. Hit points creep up slowly. In Star Adventurer it's like that, but the random table you use to level up had hit points as an option. I'll change that result to something else. Maybe a +1 to an ability score chosen randomly with a 1D6 roll.
3. Armor is now a savings throw. When hit it's -1D3, -1D4, and -1D6 less damage in light, medium, or heavy armor respectively. Heavy armor also lowers you Defense by -1.
Anybody see any issues I'm overlooking? Thoughts. Tips. Etc.
I don't know much about Star Adventurer. Is that one of those games where only warriors get a to-hit bonus increase from leveling up? If the other classes get to-hit bonuses, then I would recommend they get the commensurate defense bonuses as well.
It sounds like you're already doing this, but you would need to slow HP gain down to a crawl (possibly down to 1HP, or maybe just CON mod, per level), in order to avoid overpowering the warrior. D&D's HP gain is balanced around compensating for the fact that attack bonuses increase at a higher rate on average than AC (which you are changing).
If you are seriously restricting HP, then it'd be worth having a go-over of what ever spell (or scifi equivalent) damages there are in the game. I personally wouldn't keep the 6d6 damage lighting bolt in a game where no one has more than 20 HP. If you do end up needing to do that kind of rebalancing, then I would definitely recommend the Dragon Warriors corebook as a useful reference. That's the kind of HP range that game operates in. (I have a 4th level party in my DW campaign ATM, and I think the highest HP any of them have is around 16.)
Quote from: ForgottenF on October 11, 2022, 12:49:12 PM
I don't know much about Star Adventurer. Is that one of those games where only warriors get a to-hit bonus increase from leveling up? If the other classes get to-hit bonuses, then I would recommend they get the commensurate defense bonuses as well.
It sounds like you're already doing this, but you would need to slow HP gain down to a crawl (possibly down to 1HP, or maybe just CON mod, per level), in order to avoid overpowering the warrior. D&D's HP gain is balanced around compensating for the fact that attack bonuses increase at a higher rate on average than AC (which you are changing).
If you are seriously restricting HP, then it'd be worth having a go-over of what ever spell (or scifi equivalent) damages there are in the game. I personally wouldn't keep the 6d6 damage lighting bolt in a game where no one has more than 20 HP. If you do end up needing to do that kind of rebalancing, then I would definitely recommend the Dragon Warriors corebook as a useful reference. That's the kind of HP range that game operates in. (I have a 4th level party in my DW campaign ATM, and I think the highest HP any of them have is around 16.)
Star Adventure is an OSR that's basically Star Wars.
The warrior classes get 2 hit points per level, and everyone else gets 1 hit point. Your starting hit points is your Constitution + 1D12, but weaker classes use 1D10, 1D8, or even 1D6.
As for combat bonuses, it's not so simple as your bonus for leveling up is from a random table. In my case I'm planning to raise defense whenever you get an attack bonus. If your skill at shooting a pistol is +5, your defense vs being shot is also +5 defense. The short answer is attacks are 1D20 plus your skill bonus, and defense is 10 + the same bonus.
Spells and weapons damage in Star Adventure are from 1D6 upwards of 3D6. Most common weapons are 1D8 or 2D6 damage.
Average hit points are 10-20 at the start, but as you can see getting more isn't really something you can count on. Starting with 16 HP as a knight will be 26 when you're level 10.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 10, 2022, 09:44:57 PM
Quote from: Trond on October 10, 2022, 01:59:06 PM
To me, Runequest would be the obvious answer to the OP, if you don't mind hit locations (arms legs etc). Stormbringer could work if you don't want that but would rather have a table of critical damage.
I actually have Runequest 6E. Its page count is insane. I just can't sift thru a game that large. I'm interested in rules light stuff.
I'm still leaning towards stealing Machinations of the Space Princess armor rules.
I don't know that edition, but I always find Runequest more intuitive than D&D....and most RPGs really. There is a Quickstart version out there if you are interested, and of course PDFs of old Runequest 2 (which is fairly small but OLD) etc.
I have 10 ranks in my attack. I roll 10 dice. You have 12 ranks in your defense. You roll 12 dice.
I got 6 successes total; you got 5. You take 1 damage.
Quote from: rhialto on October 11, 2022, 10:14:27 AM
How will the Armor ST work? Maybe a full example will help. Your draft system seems workable as long as HP remain low, and this seems like less Space Opera, more Traveller-like play style.
If this seems slightly modified, that's because it's is. Essentially combat is a single (or pair) of opposed dice rolls. This is a lot like how palladium books does it. A strike vs parry. However, I do this opposed roll a second time when a strike is successful. This time it's weapon damage vs armor resistance. Subtract the armor roll from the damage.
You roll an attack with a D20+attack bonus. The target number is also a D20+ then enemy's attack bonus. Defender wins a tie. If you hit, roll your weapon damage, while the enemy rolls their armor dice. That armor dice roll is damage that's subtracted from the damage. It's entirely possible to roll a poor weapon damage vs a great armor rating and take no damage from being hit.
That being said, I'm thinking that armor dice will always be smaller than equivalent weaponry damage numbers, and probably do that by having a negative suffix.
Example. A One-hand arming sword does 2D4 damage. A chain mail hauberk & padding absorbs 1D6-2 damage (0,0,1,2,3,4). A successful attack rolls 3 & 4, aka 7 damage. The defenders armor roll a 3, reduced to a 1. The defender takes 6 damage
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 14, 2022, 11:17:20 PM
Quote from: rhialto on October 11, 2022, 10:14:27 AM
How will the Armor ST work? Maybe a full example will help. Your draft system seems workable as long as HP remain low, and this seems like less Space Opera, more Traveller-like play style.
If this seems slightly modified, that's because it's is. Essentially combat is a single (or pair) of opposed dice rolls. This is a lot like how palladium books does it. A strike vs parry. However, I do this opposed roll a second time when a strike is successful. This time it's weapon damage vs armor resistance. Subtract the armor roll from the damage.
You roll an attack with a D20+attack bonus. The target number is also a D20+ then enemy's attack bonus. Defender wins a tie. If you hit, roll your weapon damage, while the enemy rolls their armor dice. That armor dice roll is damage that's subtracted from the damage. It's entirely possible to roll a poor weapon damage vs a great armor rating and take no damage from being hit.
That being said, I'm thinking that armor dice will always be smaller than equivalent weaponry damage numbers, and probably do that by having a negative suffix.
Example. A One-hand arming sword does 2D4 damage. A chain mail hauberk & padding absorbs 1D6-2 damage (0,0,1,2,3,4). A successful attack rolls 3 & 4, aka 7 damage. The defenders armor roll a 3, reduced to a 1. The defender takes 6 damage
Got it, thanks; it's a modified version of
Stormbringer then, with the difference being the opposed attack/defense rolls in your system always results in a "winner" based on highest roll (what some
BRP variants term the "Blackjack System", i.e. highest successful roll wins). Your treatment of armor is just like
Stormbringer, but when I read "armor Saving Throw" I inferred "roll a ST vs. armor type, all or nothing results", which is what I usually interpret a ST as implying (i.e., a binary result).
Phoenix Command uses melee damage tables for blunt, flanged, cutting, or stabbing attacks. Cross-index impact damage (force of the blow) with hit location to determine degree of injury. Armor reduces the effective impact damage and so lessens injury.
One game I play now doesn't use damage rolls. Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition. All weapons do 1 damage, and 2-handed weapons do 2 damage.
You can't really reduce that. This is the game I'll probably borrow Armor Savings Throws from Warhammer tabletop war games. I think 5+ save for light armor, 4+ for medium armor, and 3+ for heavy armor.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 15, 2022, 04:26:01 PM
Phoenix Command uses melee damage tables for blunt, flanged, cutting, or stabbing attacks. Cross-index impact damage (force of the blow) with hit location to determine degree of injury. Armor reduces the effective impact damage and so lessens injury.
Yes, but my HPC allocation is mostly gone, so using a cluster to crunch all the rules to figure out the results may take a while.
(I loved reading the system -- and I liked the simplified sci-fi game/setting they did with the gorn-like aliens with a Predator mentality.)
Quote from: Tod13 on October 16, 2022, 06:53:59 PM
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 15, 2022, 04:26:01 PM
Phoenix Command uses melee damage tables for blunt, flanged, cutting, or stabbing attacks. Cross-index impact damage (force of the blow) with hit location to determine degree of injury. Armor reduces the effective impact damage and so lessens injury.
Yes, but my HPC allocation is mostly gone, so using a cluster to crunch all the rules to figure out the results may take a while.
(I loved reading the system -- and I liked the simplified sci-fi game/setting they did with the gorn-like aliens with a Predator mentality.)
HPC?
I've used PC exclusively for years so the crunch isn't a bother.
Unfortunately for me, I found that the intriguing setting as is is broken--I tried running an apocalypse campaign during the alien invasion, but found that the scope and scale defeated me. There's just too much world-building needed, and the economics don't work given the lack of efficient transportation, unless everyone has access to grav ships and teleportation. Either the characters are stuck in one location (dull) or they can globe-trot (overwhelming).
It's a bit late for this, but I finally got around to start reading Dragon Warriors.
This does look like a good game system. I'm ashamed of myself for taking so long to read it. Be kind to me, as I only just started reading it.
I do like that they keep the dice rolling down by changing how weapons stats are written. They have an armor penetration dice code, but fixed damage numbers.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 18, 2022, 08:35:33 PM
It's a bit late for this, but I finally got around to start reading Dragon Warriors.
This does look like a good game system. I'm ashamed of myself for taking so long to read it. Be kind to me, as I only just started reading it.
I do like that they keep the dice rolling down by changing how weapons stats are written. They have an armor penetration dice code, but fixed damage numbers.
I'm twelve or so sessions into running my Dragon Warriors game, so lemme know if you have any questions. I might be able to help.
Seen no mention of Tunnels and Trolls so will throw that hat into the ring. Armour reduces damage and warriors get the option of doubling up armour but with the risk of breakage as a result.
The game plays well by post without combat dragging (though I've applied a few house rules to speed things along too) and its cheap enough (including free as a try out) in PDF on drive thru.
A possible problem for the worlds 2nd oldest RPG/1st ever sorta clone is the current owners of the IP. Not only haven't they done anything with the game since buying it they are starting to drive away 3rd party producers for the game.
It's small enough that we're only talking change to buy T&T stuff but games like T&T always lived in the shadow of the 800lb gorilla and were never seen as serious alternatives. As a rules light dungeon crawling game, it's hard to beat. Plus there are loads of Fighting Fantasy style solo adventures for it. The Deluxe 2015 edition is somewhat padded out with stuff I'll never use but for the most part is pretty good.
FWIW, I used this with 3.5 back in the day. I was quite happy with GnG
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/19384/GrimnGritty-Hit-Point-and-Combat-Rules-Version-40
Quote from: APN on December 19, 2022, 03:31:35 PM
Seen no mention of Tunnels and Trolls so will throw that hat into the ring. Armour reduces damage and warriors get the option of doubling up armour but with the risk of breakage as a result.
The game plays well by post without combat dragging (though I've applied a few house rules to speed things along too) and its cheap enough (including free as a try out) in PDF on drive thru.
A possible problem for the worlds 2nd oldest RPG/1st ever sorta clone is the current owners of the IP. Not only haven't they done anything with the game since buying it they are starting to drive away 3rd party producers for the game.
It's small enough that we're only talking change to buy T&T stuff but games like T&T always lived in the shadow of the 800lb gorilla and were never seen as serious alternatives. As a rules light dungeon crawling game, it's hard to beat. Plus there are loads of Fighting Fantasy style solo adventures for it. The Deluxe 2015 edition is somewhat padded out with stuff I'll never use but for the most part is pretty good.
I have a PDF. I've tried reading it, but it truly was written before many modern terms and acronyms became standardized in RPGs.
It's clunky and hard to read. I'll stick to other games.
I'm even re-reading Palladium Fantasy 1st edition. That is a game I know very well.
Quote from: rhialto on October 15, 2022, 07:25:12 AM
...
Got it, thanks; it's a modified version of Stormbringer then, with the difference being the opposed attack/defense rolls in your system always results in a "winner" based on highest roll (what some BRP variants term the "Blackjack System", i.e. highest successful roll wins). Your treatment of armor is just like Stormbringer, but when I read "armor Saving Throw" I inferred "roll a ST vs. armor type, all or nothing results", which is what I usually interpret a ST as implying (i.e., a binary result).
The BRP SB/MW "armor roll" has almost universally been dropped in favor of static DR for good reasons.
4 rolls to resolve one hit is just a bit much.
The opposed roll + Dmg, then subtract DR is just faster in play.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 15, 2022, 07:01:04 PM
One game I play now doesn't use damage rolls. Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition. All weapons do 1 damage, and 2-handed weapons do 2 damage.
You can't really reduce that. This is the game I'll probably borrow Armor Savings Throws from Warhammer tabletop war games. I think 5+ save for light armor, 4+ for medium armor, and 3+ for heavy armor.
This could be interesting for an RPG. It'd probably go best with fixed damage like illustrated.
I'm at the point that if it takes more then two rolls to resolve a hit in combat; I'm out. Almost every system that takes more than two just isn't worth the hassle during actual play at the table.
TORG. Damage Value of a weapon is compared to Toughness of a character, with the result being read on a table to determine Shock, Wounds, and so forth.
Armor is rated in "adds", which are added to a character's Toughness. So a shirt of Chainmail is +3, a breastplate is +5, leathers (tanned hides) is +2. Adding a helmet increases the armor by +1, full limbs by another +1 (but adds an exhaustion penalty).
So a full suit of chainmail is +5, full plate is +7, etc.
I surprised nobody has mentioned GURPS.
If the rulebook size is too much (and it definitely gets there), stick with 2e.
Passive Defense for things like Shields (making the target harder to hit), Damage Resistance for locations with armor (reducing HP loss).