Quote from: jibbajibba;579679I would do the same thing. But if the Thief had hidden a bag of gold they get extra XP, so if the Theif robs the paladin on the way home and takes all the gold, does the theif get extra XP? Does the Paladin get none?
As an aside does the Thief get XP from stealing from PCs? and if so can you get multiple XP for the same gold? We all kill the dragon we get a horde of 50,000gp. We all get 10,000xp.  Then the thief steals the Paladin's share on the way home, is that worth 10,000xp? If the Paladin then gets it back by catching and imprisoning the thief is that worth an extra 10,000xp?

Does a GP carry a potential XP which can only be garnered once or is the act of caputring gold the thing that provides value ?

I can only speak from my games.  But no, you don't get multiple xp for the same treasure.  XP is given out depending on how treasure was split amongst the party.  If the thief stole from the paladin in a game?  It would be a short game, let me tell you that

But then again, I never really played with that many players who liked to play evil characters, so I guess I never ran into that problem.

And yes, we have had thieves sneak in and steal some treasure for himself before the rest of the party got there, and yes, they got xp for it.  That, combined with the xp tables, often had the thief about 2 levels higher than everyone else.  But it was never a balance problem because a 7th level thief in a party of 5th level fighters, magic users, and clerics was not overpowered by any means.

Strangely enough, as somebody who values game balance far above setting considerations, I find "suggested encounters per day" just as offensive. It's a false definition of balance, limited to a single too-narrow scenario. Good game balance should occur regardless of how many encounters happen.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;579680I can only speak from my games.  But no, you don't get multiple xp for the same treasure.  XP is given out depending on how treasure was split amongst the party.  If the thief stole from the paladin in a game?  It would be a short game, let me tell you that

But then again, I never really played with that many players who liked to play evil characters, so I guess I never ran into that problem.

And yes, we have had thieves sneak in and steal some treasure for himself before the rest of the party got there, and yes, they got xp for it.  That, combined with the xp tables, often had the thief about 2 levels higher than everyone else.  But it was never a balance problem because a 7th level thief in a party of 5th level fighters, magic users, and clerics was not overpowered by any means.

But the Paladin won't know thief stole from him.... if he found out then the paladin could get the gold back (short game for the thief perhaps) ....  XP all round.

Its a bit like aladin's lamp a new owner gets 3 wishes. Once you use the 3rd wish you give it to the next guy in the party who gets 3 wishes etc etc ...

So the best bet would be for the Paladin to get all the gold. Then for the theif to steal it all. That way they increase the available XP for the party....

As an aside I would say stealing gold isn't evil. I have played thieves that kill the whole party steal everything and fuck off ...that is evil.

Quote from: jibbajibba;579684But the Paladin won't know thief stole from him.... if he found out then the paladin could get the gold back (short game for the thief perhaps) ....  XP all round.

In my game, you only get XP for treasure spent -- and you can't get XP for the same treasure multiple times. Just like you can't normally get XP for defeating the same monsters in multiple ways.

QuoteIts a bit like aladin's lamp a new owner gets 3 wishes. Once you use the 3rd wish you give it to the next guy in the party who gets 3 wishes etc etc ...

Granting three wishes frees the djinni in my games.

So if the Paladin pays the Thief 2,000 GP for a blowjob (spending the money) he gets 2,000 XP.  If the Thief then takes that money and spends it on a den of iniquity, he also gets 2,000 XP, no?  

Or does it matter that the Thief got the treasure 'fair and square' and not by killing something.  

Would it matter if the Thief used disguise and 'tricked' the Paladin into giving him the treasure?  Ie, what if instead of a blow job, he pretended to be a down on his luck widow and the Paladin 'donated' the money to him?

Quote from: jibbajibba;579467I understand exactly what you mean. It's my point made clearer.

Why does the Cave of Peril only have creatures that can be beaten by players levels 1-3. How come in a rich and varied fantasy world a Fire Giant and his family haven't moved in....

Why does the bad part of town only have hoodies and no somali pirates... or tigers?

It would make sense that the Caves of Chaos have nothing more dangerous than an Ogre, because they're close enough to civilization that if they had a red dragon, the Grand Duke would be absolutely forced to send someone to slay it because of its devastation.  

Hence, less dangerous pests (that are nevertheless still dangerous) can go on a much longer time without the Powers That Be actually culling them, until there's enough public outcry to demand it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: deadDMwalking;579690So if the Paladin pays the Thief 2,000 GP for a blowjob (spending the money) he gets 2,000 XP.  If the Thief then takes that money and spends it on a den of iniquity, he also gets 2,000 XP, no?  

Or does it matter that the Thief got the treasure 'fair and square' and not by killing something.  

Would it matter if the Thief used disguise and 'tricked' the Paladin into giving him the treasure?  Ie, what if instead of a blow job, he pretended to be a down on his luck widow and the Paladin 'donated' the money to him?

I dont see why you get the additional xp for spending the money, but turning a trick seems just as roguish as pan handling.

Quote from: Skywalker;579458As a matter of interest, what are people's thoughts on having a module stating as being for "starting PCs" or "levels 1 to 3"?

I would assume the module would be put somewhere that made sense in the setting.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;579690So if the Paladin pays the Thief 2,000 GP for a blowjob (spending the money) he gets 2,000 XP.  If the Thief then takes that money and spends it on a den of iniquity, he also gets 2,000 XP, no?  

Or does it matter that the Thief got the treasure 'fair and square' and not by killing something.  

Would it matter if the Thief used disguise and 'tricked' the Paladin into giving him the treasure?  Ie, what if instead of a blow job, he pretended to be a down on his luck widow and the Paladin 'donated' the money to him?

Well if its money spent then the thief buys stuff from the paladin who uses the money to buy stuff from the cleric etc and you have an infinite loop.

On the monster front. If you trapped the monster you would get XP for defeating it. If it escaped and you beat it again would that be worth zero XP? What if the next time you killed it?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;579690So if the Paladin pays the Thief 2,000 GP for a blowjob (spending the money) he gets 2,000 XP.  If the Thief then takes that money and spends it on a den of iniquity, he also gets 2,000 XP, no?

No. You get XP from treasure, not from buying and selling to other party members -- or stealing from other party members. XP for treasure is a way of handing out experience for adventuring in general. So you don't get XP from spending money you earn from a mundane job in town either.
 

QuoteWould it matter if the Thief used disguise and 'tricked' the Paladin into giving him the treasure?  Ie, what if instead of a blow job, he pretended to be a down on his luck widow and the Paladin 'donated' the money to him?

No XP.  Just like I would not give XP for executing prisoners for as the town hangman even though that's "killing something".

Quote from: jibbajibba;579684But the Paladin won't know thief stole from him.... if he found out then the paladin could get the gold back (short game for the thief perhaps) ....  XP all round.

Its a bit like aladin's lamp a new owner gets 3 wishes. Once you use the 3rd wish you give it to the next guy in the party who gets 3 wishes etc etc ...

So the best bet would be for the Paladin to get all the gold. Then for the theif to steal it all. That way they increase the available XP for the party....

Except that's not how it works.  I'm pretty sure you don't get XP every time the treasure changes hands.

QuoteAs an aside I would say stealing gold isn't evil. I have played thieves that kill the whole party steal everything and fuck off ...that is evil.

I would say stealing from a friend and/or companion for selfish reasons is evil.  That's how I would rule it anyway.  Not to mention there's no way you could keep that secret out of character, and distrust among players is never good.  It only causes drama, and is not welcome at my table.

Quote from: Skywalker;579475Assuming the OP is referring to D&D4e, is anyone able to identify where the core books suggest a number of encounters per day?

I could be wrong but I think the concept was actually a result of players of 4e making an estimation of what the standard encounters per day would be based on the transparent encounter building mechanics.

I don't remember if that is explicitly in the 4e books from the one time I read them; but I DO remember the 4e DMG explicitly stating that you should make both encounter levels and treasure found scale according to PC level always (ie. a DM has to determine beforehand and non-randomly what creatures are in an "encounter area" based not on anything that has to do with the setting but on the PCs' level; and player characters are basically entitled to x amount and type of magic items at each level).

RPGPundit

Quote from: Sacrosanct;579696Except that's not how it works.  I'm pretty sure you don't get XP every time the treasure changes hands.

if it did, I'd make a fighter, then once we got a fair share of gold, I'd start up a bank.  Imagine the constant flow of xp!  In a year you could not only be high enough level for a castle, but you could afford it too!

Quote from: RPGPundit;579367Seriously, does someone want to try to defend this notion?  In what way can this make sense in roleplaying?

The potential number of encounters you might have should depend on SETTING considerations, not fucking "balance" considerations! If you are traveling through "Dragon Swamp" with your level 2 party you shouldn't expect only level-2 encounters; and it should not happen that the "caves of peril" should have only 1st-level perils for a 1st level party but the moment a 10th level party steps inside suddenly 10th level perils are spawned!
Likewise, the idea that in the course of the day there must be "x" encounters, not more nor less, or something of the sort is absurd.

There should be as many encounters as makes sense in the place the PCs actually ARE, in the fucking SETTING.

RPGPundit

Amen and well said.

Quote from: Dimitrios;579372A lack of interest in the campaign world seems to be one of the attitudes that grew up around 4e. Reading over at rpg.net, a lot of folks are very vocal about the fact that the setting only exists when the PCs are interacting with it and is irrelevant otherwise. It seems this attitude is now considered "sophisticated" compared with the naive old school view.

Granted, rpgs aren't fiction, and I'm not interested in writing novels about the campaign world. But having some idea of what's going on in the background (and how time marches on and the situation changes, even if the PCs are off doing something else) makes for a better experience in play IMHO.

When this attitude is combined with deck-building character development the game world becomes not so much a setting for players to interact with, instead serving as a 2D scrolling videogame backdrop that exists just so that they have somewhere to perform their super kewl moves besides a greenscreen soundstage.

For WOTC era D&D in general the characters,their mechanical capabilities, and the mechanical workings of their foes become the focus of the game. The setting is a secondary consideration. With the unit of XP measurement being 'the encounter' it was bound to become like this.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;579391I take it as a given that a party of 1st-level adventurers knows better than to go looking for fights they can't win. In whatever setting you like, the PCs simply don't have any motivation to actively seek out encounters that aren't "level appropriate" and lots of reasons to avoid them. Sure, the setting may have giants, dragons, and high-level horrors galore; shall we role-play our heroes' noble efforts to run away and hide from them on a daily basis? Is that fun? Any fun at all? Maybe once in a while, but as a GM or player I wouldn't want to make it a regular thing.

The thing to remember is that the risk vs reward paradigm exists to give players a choice about what types of threat they will face. Some groups like to live on the edge and try to steal treasure from monsters who would just kick their ass.

Changing XP to defeating encounters instead of treasure denies players these options. A low level group might try and steal treasure from a bunch of trolls but if they had to defeat them in combat to earn any XP it wouldn't be much of a choice at all.

Quote from: jibbajibba;579679I would do the same thing. But if the Thief had hidden a bag of gold they get extra XP, so if the Theif robs the paladin on the way home and takes all the gold, does the theif get extra XP? Does the Paladin get none?
As an aside does the Thief get XP from stealing from PCs? and if so can you get multiple XP for the same gold? We all kill the dragon we get a horde of 50,000gp. We all get 10,000xp.  Then the thief steals the Paladin's share on the way home, is that worth 10,000xp? If the Paladin then gets it back by catching and imprisoning the thief is that worth an extra 10,000xp?

Does a GP carry a potential XP which can only be garnered once or is the act of caputring gold the thing that provides value ?

The way we played it, characters could divide loot up however they wished. XP was awarded evenly no matter how the division was done. Once XP was awarded for that treasure that was it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;579691Why does the bad part of town only have hoodies and no somali pirates... or tigers?

It would make sense that the Caves of Chaos have nothing more dangerous than an Ogre, because they're close enough to civilization that if they had a red dragon, the Grand Duke would be absolutely forced to send someone to slay it because of its devastation.  

Hence, less dangerous pests (that are nevertheless still dangerous) can go on a much longer time without the Powers That Be actually culling them, until there's enough public outcry to demand it.

RPGPundit

Well the bad part of a somali port has somali pirates I would asume...

The fact that the Caves of Peril only has 1-3rd level stuff becuase they are close to humanity doesn't make sense in a points of light setting and only really makes sense in a more civilised setting if its lawful.  

The police patrol the bad bit of town and control its excesses but sometimes that doesn't work and you get projects where the police don't go and then you get Bad Men.
If there are no Police one assumes you get Bad Men everywhere.