I've currently pondering over choice of game.  

My 12-year-old son has expressed an interest in fantasy gaming.  He really has two inspirations for this: two dragon sourcebooks (Council of Wyrms for AD&D, and Draconomicon for D&D3.0); but more importantly, a lot of reading of Knights of the Dinner Table comics.  

He's played a number of one-shot RPG sessions with me and at conventions, though has never been in an ongoing campaign.  He likes Monster Island, Once Upon a Time, and the PS238 RPG - while his favorite game thus far has been Hellcats & Hockeysticks.  He also has played a fair bit of the 4th edition D&D boardgames (mainly Wrath of Ashardalon), along with Magic: The Gathering and Talisman.  

So he's looking for something with dragons, and possibly reminiscent of Knights of the Dinner Table that I'd run for him and his cousins this summer.  (Two of his cousins play 4th edition D&D.)  I'm very rusty at the dungeon fantasy genre, though, and at this point the field is quite thick with D&D versions/editions, OSR games, along with various spinoffs like Dungeon World.  I don't know enough to distinguish well between the myriad flavors.  

For them, the mechanics should probably be semi-close to 3.0, 3.5, or 4th ed D&D (where they have the most familiarity), but much simpler and also well-designed.  It should support some tactical play, but I've got nothing against either player metagame control bits or high GM discretion.  I don't have a specific thing I'm looking for - just something good that they'll like and I'll enjoy running.  I'm considering Hackmaster (good for a KODT fan, but seems more rules-heavy than I'd prefer) and a D&D basic set - possibly 4th "red box" essentials.  I only know them by reputation, though.

Avoid the 4E Red box at all costs. It is a steaming pile of crap.

If you want 4E just skip to the Heroes books, Rules Compendium, and Monster Vault.

Old School Hack?

It's a dead simple system based on 4e mechanics that tries to emulate well, kind of what you are looking for. It's free floating on the intarwebz and middle-late 'school' D&Ders seem to like it so, I'd give it a look if I were you.

Download the Swords and Wizardry quick Start
http://www.black-blade-publishing.com/Store/tabid/65/pid/24/Swords-Wrizardry-Quick-Start-pdf-.aspx

If you both like it then try either

Swords and Wizardry Core or Labyrinth Lord

http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/?page_id=18
http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html


If you have some trouble with rules light nature of the game then try reading the Old School Primer
http://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-3159558.html

And when you want more options go with one of the following

Swords and Wizardry, Complete
http://www.talesofthefroggod.com/sword-wizardry.html

Advanced Edition Companion for LL
http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html

OSRIC
http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/

Adventurer Conqueror King
http://www.autarch.co/

Look on Dragonsfoot.org and RPGNow for free or inexpensive adventures to use.
For example my Blackmarsh setting.  (free to download)
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/89944/Blackmarsh

Quote from: jhkim;546847I've currently pondering over choice of game.  

My 12-year-old son has expressed an interest in fantasy gaming.  He really has two inspirations for this: two dragon sourcebooks (Council of Wyrms for AD&D, and Draconomicon for D&D3.0); but more importantly, a lot of reading of Knights of the Dinner Table comics.  

He's played a number of one-shot RPG sessions with me and at conventions, though has never been in an ongoing campaign.  He likes Monster Island, Once Upon a Time, and the PS238 RPG - while his favorite game thus far has been Hellcats & Hockeysticks.  He also has played a fair bit of the 4th edition D&D boardgames (mainly Wrath of Ashardalon), along with Magic: The Gathering and Talisman.  

So he's looking for something with dragons, and possibly reminiscent of Knights of the Dinner Table that I'd run for him and his cousins this summer.  (Two of his cousins play 4th edition D&D.)  I'm very rusty at the dungeon fantasy genre, though, and at this point the field is quite thick with D&D versions/editions, OSR games, along with various spinoffs like Dungeon World.  I don't know enough to distinguish well between the myriad flavors.  

For them, the mechanics should probably be semi-close to 3.0, 3.5, or 4th ed D&D (where they have the most familiarity), but much simpler and also well-designed.  It should support some tactical play, but I've got nothing against either player metagame control bits or high GM discretion.  I don't have a specific thing I'm looking for - just something good that they'll like and I'll enjoy running.  I'm considering Hackmaster (good for a KODT fan, but seems more rules-heavy than I'd prefer) and a D&D basic set - possibly 4th "red box" essentials.  I only know them by reputation, though.

Dude, he loves KoDT, give him KoDT, Hackmaster 4 in all it's glory.    He can't play a  Battlemage and say "Fireballs coming online." in any other game system.  He'll get to wuss slap the Orc King to gain Honor.

Quote from: jhkim;546847For them, the mechanics should probably be semi-close to 3.0, 3.5, or 4th ed D&D (where they have the most familiarity), but much simpler and also well-designed.  It should support some tactical play, but I've got nothing against either player metagame control bits or high GM discretion.  I don't have a specific thing I'm looking for - just something good that they'll like and I'll enjoy running.  I'm considering Hackmaster (good for a KODT fan, but seems more rules-heavy than I'd prefer) and a D&D basic set - possibly 4th "red box" essentials.  I only know them by reputation, though.

Until 5e rolls out, I dare say 4e Essentials is the one that best conforms to your requisites, though I can't vouch for the 4e red box.

I am still kind of iffy on the idea of handling beginners 4e, though. I don't think 4e is a beginner-friendly game. It's not that I think people new to RPGs are retarded, as seems to be a common assumption in similar threads over at RPGnet, it's that 4e might be a bit too abstract and boardgamey, and I'm not entirely sure whether this is good or bad (it's probably good if he likes boardgames).

When introducing people to RPGs, I usually take the GM seat and run some version of TSR-era D&D (lots of people expect to play D&D when "RPGs" are mentioned), typically a tried-and-true cliché scenario like "clear out the lair of the goblins who are attacking the caravans" or "find the Ancient McGuffin in the Ancient Ruins to lift the curse that afflicts the town". Or, on occasion, a modern-day horror scenario -- I like horror because it's more "mainstream" pop culture than fantasy or SF or supers -- with Call of Cthulhu (Mythos geekery dialed down) or World of Darkness (nWoD core, mortals only), just because those two systems are the ones I feel most comfortable with.

I've been running B/X for my 8 and 10 year old boys (actually they move on to  9 and 11 yrs over the next 10 days) and although they've previously played and enjoyed 4th, they really seem to like the more free form style of play B/X necessitates. I suggest down loading Labyrinth Lord

Anyway, the real reason I'm in this thread is that my sons were looking for the same sort of game and I designed a small setting with that in mind. The first post in this thread contains the map for this setting and a very brief gazetteer.

They want D&D, I say give it to them. But go for the gusto and download the playtest of D&D Next and give that a whirl. It has some interesting mechanics in it, without a bunch of the baggage that comes with even the core rules of 4E. And it, too, is free right now.

Gamma World 4e.

It's 4e mechanics at their best - clean, easy and fun. I know its not strictly a dungeon fantasy RPG, but I've played a few con demos and the teens at the table went gonzo for the game.

While the geezers were comparing the new GW to its predecessors, the young bloods were geeking over the weirdness of the setting. They were loving how it blended scifi and fantasy in a way they had never seen before.

If your son is into Greek myths, I also suggest downloading Mazes & Minotaurs which is a free old school RPG that kicks ass.

http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/

I'd agree that full 4E isn't very beginner friendly.  I've saw some mixed reviews of the Red Box Essentials in addition to what was said here - so I'm not considering that for now.  

I'm also considering Hackmaster, but my impression is that it's pretty rules-heavy - it seems like we can do very KODT-like stuff without those rules.  

A friend of mine has the Pathfinder Beginner Box that I'm going to take a look at.  

He played Gamma World recently at a convention and had fun, but he's specifically looking for D&D-like fantasy.  (Also, his cousins are D&D players too.)  I lean towards more modern-like games in that I don't relish trying to explain THAC0 when they already know 3.X/4E mechanics.

Are you only looking for "big press" type of games, or are small company games systems still on the table for consideration?

If they are, I suggest Epic RPG by Dark Matter Press.  
It's a simple to grasp game system, but still offers enough "crunch" to satiate the miniatures use/metagaming style of gameplay.

Quote from: Grimace;547055Are you only looking for "big press" type of games, or are small company games systems still on the table for consideration?

If they are, I suggest Epic RPG by Dark Matter Press.  
It's a simple to grasp game system, but still offers enough "crunch" to satiate the miniatures use/metagaming style of gameplay.

I'm personally very interested in indie and/or small-press games.  However, this isn't a generic question of a good fantasy game.  I'm dealing with the itch of a kid who is reading the Draconomicon and Knights of the Dinner Table and is specifically asking for gaming like that.  From the sample and other material, I don't think EPIC is that game.  

To others, I was amused as someone passed me a post of Burning Wheel author Luke Crane praising Moldvay D&D:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/111266966448135449970/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5#111266966448135449970/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5

However, I'm doubtful about using Moldvay itself with kids who are only familiar with 3rd/4th ed mechanics.  I don't relish trying to explain THAC0 in particular.  I like the idea of a more old-school approach, but some of the mechanics really just seem clunky to someone raised on more unified systems.  If they hadn't already learned the new mechanics I might try it, but at this point it would seem clunky.

Quote from: jhkim;547158To others, I was amused as someone passed me a post of Burning Wheel author Luke Crane praising Moldvay D&D:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/111266966448135449970/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5#111266966448135449970/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5

:rolleyes:

Quote from: jhkim;547158However, I'm doubtful about using Moldvay itself with kids who are only familiar with 3rd/4th ed mechanics.  I don't relish trying to explain THAC0 in particular.  I like the idea of a more old-school approach, but some of the mechanics really just seem clunky to someone raised on more unified systems.  If they hadn't already learned the new mechanics I might try it, but at this point it would seem clunky.

Don't explain THAC0.

Substitute Target 20.

It's the same result, lets you use older published materials as written, but is easy to understand (d20 + AC + mods must be => 20.)

Quote from: jhkim;547158I don't relish trying to explain THAC0 in particular.

There's no such thing as THAC0 in B/X. You use to-hit charts on your side of the screen instead. There's *nothing* to explain to the players, besides rolling a d20.