Quote from: James McMurraytheRPGsite actively encourages a "tell everyone you disagree with to fuck off" style, whereas typical real life gaming groups do not. As a case in point, Koltar, as far as I know, has never told anyone to fuck off (except perhaps Nox), but has been repeatedly lambasted for being too nice, too suck-uppish, and too eager to belong.

 Close to accurate , James - fair enough at least .


 In general, it makes no sense to me to tell someone in-person...at a game table to either "fuck off" or to call them a "cunt" .

 Supposedly these are people that you are trying to have a good time PLAYING a game with .

 This thread - originally was about "subtractive Gm-ing". The way I run a game that wouldn't really appy . To me, an RPG is its core 2 or 3 books - NOT the two dozen odd plus books that a company pumps out hoping that people buy them (hello WotC) - that are mostly bloody optional anyway.

IF , I ever ran D&D/D20 (and I might someday) I would tell my players up front n that the only books that matter are the PHB, DMG and the Monster Manual  - anything else they have to negotiate or make a case  for . If they want it bad enough or I think the whole group would get a benefot out of it - then I go 50/50 with the player and a buy a copy of the book or supplement.

 Same thing with my GURPS games - the only required books are  CHARACTERS and CAMPAIGNS. (I'm running 4th edition) We are using the TRAVELLER universe setting - thats all they really need to know . Can they browse the other books ? Sure they can are ALL of them going to be used ?
 Hell no! -  There is no reason to.

Maybe some DMs and GMs just don't want to clutter up a game or campaign with too much needless crap or overkill.

Thats not being an 'adversary" against what the player wants - thats just trying to run  a manageable and fun game for everyone.

 As for cussing at the table or real life ?
 Depends on your group of friends.  JimBob's group probably cusses all the time in comparison to mine.
 If someone in my group cusses - its usually "in-character" or they just accidentally dropped something on thir foot or bumped into something.
 Hell - I've been told I swear more naturally when I'm playing one of my NPCs or doing a character voice.  Its just who I am.

Still , call someone a "cunt" in my group - you'll find the door pretty damn fast.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarAs for cussing at the table or real life ?
 Depends on your group of friends.  JimBob's group probably cusses all the time in comparison to mine.

Surprisingly, the main difference seems to be setting. The current postapocalyptic game has got a lot of profanity, the Saxon age low fantasy campaign had very little by comparison.

I think also more in-game violence leads to more player swearing, both in and out of character. When bullets are flying it seems more natural to say, "fuck!" than when people are talking to an Earl about marrying off his daughter to the King's bastard son.

Regarding Pseuodephedrine and his group swearing at each-other, recall also that he's said his group enjoys intra-party treachery a lot. I'd say that's unusual in a game group, and would also naturally lead to an unusual level of swearing, and vice versa. Pseudoephedrine just has a generally aggressive bunch of gamers in his group, from what he's told us.

Jim> It's true that my current group is more aggressive than many other groups, but I have played with other groups over the years where things were not as aggressive. I could still say things like "Don't be an asshole" or "Are you fucking crazy?" without raising any eyebrows. I suspect it's a cultural thing, since most of the folks objecting to swearing are Yanks.

If you remember from my "Swearing at the Table" thread, you pointed out there that Australian culture is much more amenable to casual swearing than American culture is, and the same is definitely true of Canada (We let people say "fuck" on basic TV, as a trivial example).

James> You're making a statement that attempts to claim something is the norm without providing any proof for it. What evidence do you have that in gaming groups it's not the norm to swear at people if they annoy you?

As for this:

Quote from: James McMurrayJust because I gave an example doesn't mean it's only inherent to those few members. Look around a bit and you'll see that this is a much more "in your face" site than others.

That's only true in comparison to RPG.net and a few other heavily modded RPG websites that ban PAs. For example, this place is only about as bad as the WotC boards in terms of the vitriol and contempt heaped on people who disagree with you. You can't swear over there, but the quarrels are at least as bitter, nasty and confrontational as anything that goes on here. Heck, this place doesn't even compare to the old (pre-2000) White Wolf Forums. And those are just specific RPG-related websites. In general gaming, the Something Awful forums alone make the claim that this site is particularly "in your face" silly.

Thats funny.

 In a twisted way , I find this forum friendlier in many ways than the Big Purple & Pink.
 Vitriol ?  Not so much.

 - Ed C.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThat would seem contrary to your actions in this very thread, should you go back and read the progression of your posts.

The distinction is that I formed my opinion of you over observing your posting patterns, over this thread and around the site in general. You've chalked up hundreds of post in this place: that is more than enough for me to make up my mind how I feel about you.

Conversely, you were advocating calling people "cunts" as soon as the words "I am the law" came out of their mouth, with next-to-no context involved.

QuoteI didn't compare them to dictators. J Arcane did. I did compare the kinds of justifications people use to justify saying things like "My word is law" to the kinds of justifications (the divine right of kings, etc.) people offered for absolute monarchy.

Interesting that you should raise the "divine right of kings". As far as I am aware, there's no unambiguous bit in the Bible which said (to name one historical proponent of the Divine Right) "King Charles I has the right to be absolute monarch of England": the argument for the divine right of kings, when it did cite from the Bible, tended to go for somewhat more ambiguous passages.

A great many - I'd argue most - RPGs are not like that, however. They frequently do have notes in the text saying "The GM has final responsibility for making rules calls". Heck, the 1st Edition DMG pretty much says "The DM's word is law". It is a reasonable argument to say "this game is designed with the assumption that my word, as DM, is to be taken as law for the purposes of the game, therefore in this campaign I am the law".

Of course, at that point people are free to say "can we please ignore that bit of the rulebook and work out our own social contract?", or just leave, but equating "vaguely justifying your authority on the grounds of some ambiguous quotes" to "directly referring to something specifically written in a rulebook describing your powers" is a tenuous analogy at best.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIt's also worth pointing out that it was Warthur who made the comment, not Koltar or you. He hasn't said anything about just being a good principle in a game group. He said that he followed it "normally" which seems to mean that he follows it as much as he can, whether gaming or not.

Let me specify what I mean here, then: I normally assume in social situations that I shouldn't go around calling people cunts, or socially maladjusted dorks, or whatever. Even online, places where you can directly tell people you don't like that they are assholes tend to be the exception rather than the rule; similarly, I have some groups of friends within which good-natured insults are all fair play, while I have other friends who don't enjoy that kind of thing. Again, the former case tends to involve friends, and therefore tends to be the exception as opposed to the rule.

Finally, there is a clear difference between playful, sweary banter between friends and directly insulting someone, and saying "You're a cunt" in response to someone saying "I am the law" will usually fall into the latter case, unless you are careful about the context, the tone of voice, and so forth. Similarly, there is a difference between being rude about someone on theRPGSite and actually presenting an argument, as I hope I have done most of the time, and just making a one-line post saying "you're a cunt". The latter has typically not garnered much respect.

Do you understand now?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineJames> You're making a statement that attempts to claim something is the norm without providing any proof for it. What evidence do you have that in gaming groups it's not the norm to swear at people if they annoy you?

Point to where I said it's the case with all groups and I'll happily defend that position. But if you can't, please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

QuoteThat's only true in comparison to RPG.net and a few other heavily modded RPG websites that ban PAs. For example, this place is only about as bad as the WotC boards in terms of the vitriol and contempt heaped on people who disagree with you. You can't swear over there, but the quarrels are at least as bitter, nasty and confrontational as anything that goes on here. Heck, this place doesn't even compare to the old (pre-2000) White Wolf Forums. And those are just specific RPG-related websites. In general gaming, the Something Awful forums alone make the claim that this site is particularly "in your face" silly.

So you're saying that it's ok to call someone a cunt to their face with precious little provocation anywhere? Or are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?

I'm talking about disparate social norms in different situations. That there are examples of people being rude on WotC's boards in no way says that it's ok to call someone a cunt for little to no provocation in a face-to-face setting.

Could Pseudo being acting like a 'cunt" in this very thread in the hope that one of us will call him that ?

 Just a thought.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarCould Pseudo being acting like a 'cunt" in this very thread in the hope that one of us will call him that ?

His cuntish behavior isn't limited to just this thread. It seems to be a habit, not an affectation to make a point.