I watched the highlights from Open Range last night. I forgot how incredible the camera work was. Some really great scenes in there.

I can see the limited appeal for DitV as a one-shot, but I can't see playing it on a regular basis. I don't know anything about the system.

I watched a British comedy series called Black Books the other days and one bit really stuck in my head, similarly to the Elders at the door. Some Christian {missionaries} knocked on the guy's door and rather than do his taxes, he let them in and wanted to discuss religion. These guys were shocked because no one ever let them in. Once they got through the door, they didn't know what to talk about since they never got that far. Now that's what I think about when I hear about Mormons (even though they weren't Mormons, it's just too similar, since these guys looked just like two Elders that I've spoken to through a previous job on more than one occasion). Sorry.... just rambling, I guess.

I'd probably pick up DitV if it was cheaper.

On another note, Sheryl Nantus (author of Straddle County and Home Front) came up with a great idea and we're developing it for Coyote Trail -- sort of prestige classes for Gangs. The characters get special gimmicks and hideouts when part of a gang. It's a great idea and I can't wait to get it done and share it with everyone. Hang tight.

From my read of it, I'm guessing Baker's still got some pretty divided, unsettled  childhood church issues, and he's unfortunately decided to foist that on the rest of us.

DiTV sucks. The setting sucks, the system sucks. The idea of mormon "eggheads" (as they're called here in Uruguay) actually seeming like credible heroic types, much less badasses, sucks. The concept of feeling some kind of likeability for people who are basically the Taliban, going around imposing god's law on anyone they want to, sucks.

The only redeeming quality the fucking game has is that it wasn't written by Bruce Baugh or Rebecca Borgstrom, and is thus mercifully short compared to the drivel it could have been.  That's a pretty sad silver lining.

RPGPundit

Quote from: pigames.netI can see the limited appeal for DitV as a one-shot, but I can't see playing it on a regular basis. I don't know anything about the system.

Sounds like how I've heard a few people use it. As sort of a "not everyone could make it", a pick-up type game, or just a "and now for somethnig completely different".  I think there is a tie-in here back to the "Avoiding Burnout" thread.

QuoteI watched a British comedy series called Black Books the other days and one bit really stuck in my head, similarly to the Elders at the door. Some Christian {missionaries} knocked on the guy's door and rather than do his taxes, he let them in and wanted to discuss religion. These guys were shocked because no one ever let them in. Once they got through the door, they didn't know what to talk about since they never got that far. Now that's what I think about when I hear about Mormons (even though they weren't Mormons, it's just too similar, since these guys looked just like two Elders that I've spoken to through a previous job on more than one occasion). Sorry.... just rambling, I guess.

In the past if I've had time to kill, like a super lazy Saturday afternoon, I've invited them in. It can actually be amusing if you start asking them hard, pointed questions about some underlying assumptions. Not as amusing though if you happen to have a really good bible memory and start tearing spripture strips off them like a guy I knew many, many years back.

Not often now though that I don't have any kids at home with me, so I generally give them a straight pass. Plus they are people too, and they are just doing their thing to get them into heaven.

P.S. Although you'd think with the naga carving (from a friend) hanging in breakfast nook and the Santa Chuthlu (another gift from a friend) perched on the top corner of the kitchen cabinets you'd think they'd pack up and leave shortly.

Quote from: RPGPunditDiTV sucks. The setting sucks, the system sucks. The idea of mormon "eggheads" (as they're called here in Uruguay) actually seeming like credible heroic types, much less badasses, sucks. The concept of feeling some kind of likeability for people who are basically the Taliban, going around imposing god's law on anyone they want to, sucks.

Playing normally "unlikable" characters has it appeal.  You should meet some of mine. For example Gerold of Had, paladin of Pholtus (currently retired....as a cat after an unfortunate polymorpth incident at the very end of his last session before his planned retirement).

Jerry Falwell with a sword and an attitude like he had a cocaine habit (and some "mother" issues to boot).  He was a load of fun.  Too bad the AD&D advancement rates basically killed him for me. :/  I've played his kin since, but none of them are quite up to his grade of handing out retribution.  Even the one name Gabriel of Had, cleric of St. Cuthbert, because he was a little more about himself than the vain pain-in-the-ass but ultimately self sacrificing and kicker of evil ass that Gerold was.

P.S. Yes, the "G. Had" pun was intentional.

Quote from: SamarkandBTW--if you mixed Iron Gauntlets with Coyote Trail, would you get "Dark Tower"?


Andrew

Oh, two parts Earth AD, one part Coyote Trail, and a few dashes of Iron Gauntlets.

Not that I've, like, put much thought into it.

Quote from: RPGPunditDiTV sucks. The setting sucks, the system sucks. The idea of mormon "eggheads" (as they're called here in Uruguay) actually seeming like credible heroic types, much less badasses, sucks.

    If you're looking for a complex and dramatic source of adventure material, the real-life saga of the Church of Latter-Day Saints is a humdinger.  Religious persecution, fighting the Illinois and Ohio militias, fleeing across the continent to found Deseret, the handcart migration of the faithful to a Promised Land, and the brewing Mormon War with the US Army during the 50's.  Not to mention roleplaying a character in a rigid religious code and unusual social patterns like polygamy.  

    No different in playing a Mormon or pseudo-Mormon than portraying a member of an ancient civilization that thought slavery was perfectly okay, waged genocidal military campaigns, and nailed criminals to pieces of wood.  Roleplaying isn't a matter of approval, but of exploration of something alien to the player.

Andrew

Quote from: SamarkandRoleplaying isn't a matter of approval, but of exploration of something alien to the player.

Oh boy. You just said what to the Pundit?

Quote from: Samarkand.....

Hot damn that's good posting.  Well said, sir.

Quote from: SosthenesOh boy. You just said what to the Pundit?

   It certainly isn't intended to be a Swinish pronouncement.  Putting yourself in the shoes of a persona different than yourself is a pretty good definition of "roleplaying".  Some people like playing Cohen the Barbarian and saving scantily clad babes (and their valuable gold jewelry) from being sacrificed to the Orc Gods.  Others like to play super-Goth bad-asses with kewl powerz.  Me, I'm an agnostic Jew who at times envies his more devout co-religionists for the support Jewish ritual has in times of crisis.  DitV's austere Faithful seem an interesting "costume" to put on, if only for a time.

   I never said it was important or that it would be a dramatic exploration of the intersection of mercy and faith.  But for me, sometimes fun would be that exploration.

Andrew

Okay, the original phrasing sounded too much like that's what role-playing is all about. That the psychological details of some of the roles won't match those of the players is rather logical, though I don't know whether there's something completely "alien" about them, unless you're playing someone psychologically ill.

Still, some type of roles are a little bit difficult to "explore" in a sane gaming environment. Maybe it's just the atheist in me speaking, but some details of the mormon watchdogs come pretty close to playing Fahrenheit 451 firemen, spanish inquisitors or Nazis. I could play a lot of those roles if they're not the total nexus of the game, but DitV totally focuses on them. Not something I'd want to explore...

Again, I'm European, so I'm not used to Mormons. They seriously creep me out sometimes...

Quote from: SosthenesOkay, the original phrasing sounded too much like that's what role-playing is all about. That the psychological details of some of the roles won't match those of the players is rather logical, though I don't know whether there's something completely "alien" about them, unless you're playing someone psychologically ill.

Still, some type of roles are a little bit difficult to "explore" in a sane gaming environment. Maybe it's just the atheist in me speaking, but some details of the mormon watchdogs come pretty close to playing Fahrenheit 451 firemen, spanish inquisitors or Nazis.

     I'd certainly change some aspects of DitV when it comes to how the Dogs enforce the Laws of the Faithful.  The entire "the character defines the Dog as hero or villain" aspect made me a bit hesitant.  I would add in the injunction that the taking of life by a Dog does have certain restrictions.  That they are not the ultimate authority, who can condemn someone to death simply because they are charged to "guard the body of the Faithful".  

    My comfort level with the Dogs as a viable PC roleplaying challenge is that the philosophy they represent doesn't have the objectionable aspects that Nazism does.  The religious of the codes of the Faithful are very restrictive when it comes to gender roles and proper morality.  So?  It's no different than playing in the Middle Ages when gender roles were equally circumscribed. Whereas roleplaying an SS officer means acting out a nihilistic and totalitarian ideology focused on the genocide of the unfit.  The Dogs may represent a strict and uncompromising religious faith.  But the Faithful are much, much less negative than a National Socialist.

Andrew

Quote from: SamarkandOne fun supplement you could do: one focusing on the North West Mounted Police (Mounties) of Canada. A slightly different flavour of lawdog than the rougher Marshalls and Texas Rangers of that era.

Hear, hear, baby!  I'm fascinated by the contrast between the Cops and the Cowboys.

Quote from: RPGPunditFrom my read of it, I'm guessing Baker's still got some pretty divided, unsettled  childhood church issues, and he's unfortunately decided to foist that on the rest of us.

Enh.  He wrote a game that I can take or leave as I please.  You've declared yourself a pundit and are actively inserting yourself into discussions.  What's your excuse?

QuoteThe setting sucks, the system sucks. The idea of mormon "eggheads" (as they're called here in Uruguay) actually seeming like credible heroic types, much less badasses, sucks. The concept of feeling some kind of likeability for people who are basically the Taliban, going around imposing god's law on anyone they want to, sucks.

I'll say it again -- roleplaying is an exploration of the Other.  Other people, other settings, other times, other circumstances, other beliefs -- mix and match to your satisfaction.  Dogs in the Vineyard lays out its premise suitably for those with an interest.  Substituting the statement "I'm not interested" or "I object" with "It sucks!" is puerile.

!i!

My point isn't that the exploration of the "other" isn't roleplaying; my point is that you're playing a character group that are, to me, entirely unsympathetic and yet portraying them, due to the ideas of the game designer, in generally sympathetic ways.  

I don't really care much for a game where you would have to play Guatemalan Death Squads; nor would I want to play the a "Taliban campaign" where we get to stone women for showing too much ankle, nor would I want to play the Blue Rose Thought Police Patrol; and, thusly I would not care to play a gang of Mormon judge/executioners.

RPGPundit

Well, when you put it that way...okay.  Point taken.

!i!

If I owned Coyote Trail, I'd probably end up playing a James-style gang, throw in some morality play action, and shoot up a bunch of worse gangs.  

Either that, or "Support Your Local Sheriff" with Sam Peckinpah's sensibilities.