My favorite thing about subtextin games is how easily I can avoid it if I'm not interested in it.  If I don't dig the game's 'message', that's okay; obviously I'm not the target audience.

I mean, hell, I didn't have to go see Coyote Ugly, either, so I didn't.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhy do you want your games to be simple?  Why not aspire to more?

You know, this is what my blog is about.  It's new, go read it.

If I wanted simple entertainment, I'd watch TV.  There's a joy in complexity and pushing back the boundaries.  Being excited about being low-brow is nothing to boast about.

Besides which, the people who publish RPGs frequently ARE professional so they've got no excuse.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf I wanted simple entertainment, I'd watch TV.  There's a joy in complexity and pushing back the boundaries.  Being excited about being low-brow is nothing to boast about.

Being excited about low-brow IS nothing to boast about, but being excited that you've suddenly remembered that you don't HAVE to push yourself so far and can just let it happen naturally -- I'm in that boat right now, and I can tell you, I'm tickled pink.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Being excited about low-brow IS nothing to boast about, but being excited that you've suddenly remembered that you don't HAVE to push yourself so far and can just let it happen naturally -- I'm in that boat right now, and I can tell you, I'm tickled pink.

No doubt about it, it's a good feeling.  

Good work on your blog, btw.  Keep it up.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My favorite thing about subtextin games is how easily I can avoid it if I'm not interested in it.  If I don't dig the game's 'message', that's okay; obviously I'm not the target audience.

That seems to be why the original WW stuff bothered so many people. It got right up in their nose.  Perhaps because they were -missing- a layer, playing characters from the other side? I think someone mentioned in the other thread.

QuoteI mean, hell, I didn't have to go see Coyote Ugly, either, so I didn't.

Then you missed out on some serious wet-t-shirt-dancing-on-the-bar action! :cool:   Seriously, I put it roughly in the same catagory as say Wild Orchid for movies to pop into the DVD. A little ambience best shared with a 'friend'. Just make sure to turn your brain off. Preferably with a bottle of wine or other favored beverage.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalBesides which, the people who publish RPGs frequently ARE professional so they've got no excuse.

I think this might be where the confusion and the problems lie. When the curtain gets drawn back from the process.**  I see the same with critical theory, which although it bugs me IMO has it's place. That being in the creation process.

The tricky part is that RPGs are tools, so there is still some creation going on after you sit at the table. Coordinating that generally falls on the GM's shoulders. So it gets a bit messy.


** And The Forge would seem to have done that. There are some problems that crop up when that happens. There is at lease one game designer here mentions that he purposely doesn't talk shop on the internet partially because of the way some people would then think of him as not being a profession. "Familiarity breeds contempt" I think was the phrase he used. It's like the advice "never visit a weiner factory".

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf I wanted simple entertainment, I'd watch TV.  There's a joy in complexity and pushing back the boundaries.  Being excited about being low-brow is nothing to boast about.

False dichotomy.  Simplicity is not equal to low-brow, and complexity is definitely not equal to high-brow or elevated or transcendent.  Often, the most difficult to pull off or successful take on a thing is the most simple or elegant.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalBesides which, the people who publish RPGs frequently ARE professional so they've got no excuse.

My favorite professionals are the ones who have serious insight and design chops, but still always have one foot firmly planted in the physical, emotional, more profane joys of RPGs.  Or movies, or novels, or even television shows.

I have always thought that the proper place to add subtext is at the GM level, not at the designer level. Anyone who has played in one of the games I run knows I have lots of subtext there, but I try to keep it out of the setting as I design it, or at least keep it to a level below the concious. If a designer loads a setting with too much subtext, it's harder for me as a GM to put in my subtext.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI have always thought that the proper place to add subtext is at the GM level, not at the designer level. ... If a designer loads a setting with too much subtext, it's harder for me as a GM to put in my subtext.

-clash

Damn right!!
Game designers have no business imposing their ideas of how they think I should run my game.
Their job is to give me as many options as possible, not to narrow down my options to what they think is cool/relevant/politically correct.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmiceI have always thought that the proper place to add subtext is at the GM level, not at the designer level. Anyone who has played in one of the games I run knows I have lots of subtext there, but I try to keep it out of the setting as I design it, or at least keep it to a level below the concious. If a designer loads a setting with too much subtext, it's harder for me as a GM to put in my subtext.

-clash

What about having it there, or the ready ingredients, but the GM/players playing it up?  Because, well, lets just say there are differing skill sets and levels among GMs. *cough* So a little prefab can be very helpful.

Occationally I've worked a job that involved wearing a suit every day. I have this one suit that I just love. Why? Because I don't have to think much to get dressed with it. The cloth it is made has this interesting property that it changes to go with nearly any colour. Not to be confused with black or white that goes with any colour, this suit actually adapts.  It also happens to work out well with the wife, because it'll work not only with whatever tie-shirt I wear. But as long as my tie-shirt goes with her outfit it adapts that way too.

How? Well if you look really close at the cloth you'll see there are actually a lot of lit bits of different coloured thread in it and the whole seems to be balanced so that it all but the colour you want just sink into the background.

There are wall paint colours that do this too, although obviously not with individual threads.

Quote from: RPGPunditDamn right!!
Game designers have no business imposing their ideas of how they think I should run my game.
Their job is to give me as many options as possible, not to narrow down my options to what they think is cool/relevant/politically correct.

I think that's where the line gets drawn. Imposing vs. giving options. And it's a subjective one. Of course you can't give every option within a single game.  That's why you haven't run a Three Kingdoms campaign before, right? You felt that no game had given you a decent shot at doing what you wanted before that?

Quote from: LostSoulI like it when an RPG has a theme, but I want to be able to put my own mark on it.  

Gearing up for a Mage game (first edition, I think), I wanted the Technocracy to be a real choice.  The way it's presented, the Technocracy is capital-E Evil.  I wanted it to be a choice between freedom and persecution vs. comfort and conformity.  So I could have my PC say, "I actually want to give up the Mage life and live with my wife in the consumerist world, because having that freedom isn't worth it to me."

Or in Star Wars, saying that the evil guy who now wants to repent should actually be fucking killed for all the bad shit that he did.

Quote from: flyingmiceI have always thought that the proper place to add subtext is at the GM level, not at the designer level. Anyone who has played in one of the games I run knows I have lots of subtext there, but I try to keep it out of the setting as I design it, or at least keep it to a level below the concious. If a designer loads a setting with too much subtext, it's harder for me as a GM to put in my subtext.

Hm.  I tend to feel like LostSoul here.  I generally like both having subtext in my games, and including in my own subtext.  

To be specific, some of my favorite settings for games have included Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Call of Cthulhu, James Bond 007, Lord of the Rings, and Star Trek -- all of which are loaded with subtext.  Of original settings, some of my favorites are Paranoia and Macho Women With Guns -- also dripping with subtext.  However, I never felt that this got in the way of adding my own -- or my players adding in their own.  So, for example, in my last James Bond 007 game one of the players made a super-spy who was gay.  Thus, I ran with this and naturally had him meet incredibly handsome NPCs with names like Phil McCrackin and Ivan Moorcock.  

I'm not sure about what games eliminate subtext, but that sounds bland to me.  Maybe I'm missing something there, though.  

Like LostSoul, there are games where I struggle with the subtext more.  I wasn't particularly drawn to Mage, but if I did I would have the same desire to make the Technocracy more of an interesting, valid choice.  However, that's not unique to Mage by any means.  For example, the last D&D game I ran was a tactical one-shot where the PCs were all kobolds trying to defend their homes and families against the invading adventurers -- which was all about messing with the D&D subtext.

Quote from: blakkieWhat about having it there, or the ready ingredients, but the GM/players playing it up?  Because, well, lets just say there are differing skill sets and levels among GMs. *cough* So a little prefab can be very helpful.

Putting in ingredient that I can tailor the way I want is fine. If the subtext is forced on me, though, that screws up what I want to do with it. If a GM wants a color by numbers painting, that's up to him, but I want more freedom than that.

-clash

Quote from: RPGPunditDamn right!!
Game designers have no business imposing their ideas of how they think I should run my game.
Their job is to give me as many options as possible, not to narrow down my options to what they think is cool/relevant/politically correct.

RPGPundit

It's part of what I have een calling the Cult of the Game Designer, where Designer trumps GM. I insist that the GM trumps the Designer. If not, I don't want anything to do with it.

-clash