QuoteShould RPGs try not to have subtext or themes?

What should RPGs have? My stance on that is based on pure utilitarianism. That is: As games, they should have things that make for fun gaming. I'm not sure that layered subtext and high-minded themes better suited for literature support that for the vast majority of gamers.

So I guess I would say that no, they should not. Such things lack general utility, and ought to be saved for the "next great American novel" that a given RPG designer is working-on on the side.

Quote from: ReimdallIs a piece of art (because we're there now, right?)

In the forbidden zone? Yeah, pretty much.

Quotesuccessful if the creator conveys what they intended to the auditor/reader/consumer/whatever?

Is it successful if whatever gets made elicits a tasty response that is richer than anything the author intended?  Or not even richer, just different

A success is determined by the goal. So I guess, as always, that depends who's measuring and with what metric. Which is just another way of rewording your question without actually adding anything of my own, huh?

QuoteI know that sounds relativistic, but critical theory always seems to boil down to rating how qualified people are to consume created things.  Or how correct they are in their manner of consumption.

Which I guess is why a lot of critical theory bugs me. Because if I can't just enjoy it then it is a little use to me. Doing some sort of pattern matching so I can say "well this is something that I should be enjoying" to know when to enjoy, and I get the impression that the attitude underlying that Grade 12 English class, strikes me as a poser's game.

It certainly strikes me as an emotionally void game.  Which is sad because it's detracting from what, for me, is a great play in Death of a Salesman.  Focusing in on the guy's name? Effectively irrelavent to the main thrust and power of the story. It's like you are trying so hard to figure out the latin name of the species of the tree that you risk missing the beauty of the forrest.

Falling into playing "spot the pretext" I think tends to be like that.  Intellectual busywork that can easily thwart enjoyment of the whole.  Of course if you aren't enjoying the whole to start with then I guess it is something to fill the empty hours. But then why aren't you just going out and finding something else, because if you want a word puzzle or some sort of Where's Waldo (hint: right over there <---- )they have books for that too.

Quote from: YamoSo I guess I would say that no, they should not. Such things lack general utility....

:jaw-dropping:  What the fuck is an RPG, a freaking floor waxer?

Wait no, you're right.  In fact what the hell are people thinking putting in pictures in those RPG books. Silly game companies, they could save a lot of money stripping out such things that lack general utility.

Quote from: blakkie:jaw-dropping:  What the fuck is an RPG, a freaking floor waxer?

Wait no, you're right.  In fact what the hell are people thinking putting in pictures in those RPG books. Silly game companies, they could save a lot of money stripping out such things that lack general utility.

No, an RPG is a social gaming event. An RPG rules manual is a tool on par with a floor waxer.

"Deep" stuff that makes some GMs go "Whoa, duuuuuuuudde...." while reading the rules manual between bong hits does not a better game session make.

Quote from: YamoYou can stretch any point to a ridiculous extreme, but I stand by what I wrote.

No stretching is required to make your point ridiculous.

Quote"Deep" stuff that makes some GMs go "Whoa, duuuuuuuudde...." while reading the rules manual between bong hits does not a better game session make.

Putting "deep" in quotes pretty much underlines that you miss the point.  If it is good, if it does work for the reader/player, then it sure as hell has utility and it belongs in there. Now if that particular setting etc. doesn't particularly work for you? Well then move along and find another one that does.

Quote from: blakkieIf it is good, if it does work for the reader/player, then it sure as hell has utility and it belongs in there.

Only if enough of the target audience is, in the majority, receptive to the "message." If they could care less, it's an unjustificable addition to any well-designed game. Ballast.

The fact that we haven't seen this sort of thing deliberately-inserted into the hobby's most popular games obviously means that it doesn't merit inclusion with hobbyists at large.

Quote from: YamoOnly if enough of the target audience is, in the majority, receptive to the "message." If they could care less, it's an unjustificable addition to any well-designed game. Ballast.

A well designed game is one that doesn't envoke a mood? Doesn't have a tight, consistant tone?  Pictures are part of that. Prose and premise, and that is what we are talking here, I suggest moreso.  Flow of play, how things generally happen in the game and where they usually end up, another key component.  Oh sure it's nice if the player and even the GM doesn't think about this. Positively fabulous. Optimal.

But there is a huge gaping chasm of difference between not taking note of it during play and it not being there. Talk about taking things to a ridiculous extreme. "Just game" indeed. :rolleyes:

Quote from: blakkieA well designed game is one that doesn't envoke a mood? Doesn't have a tight, consistant tone?  Pictures are part of that. Prose and premise, and that is what we are talking here, I suggest moreso.  Flow of play, how things generally happen in the game and where they usually end up, another key component.  Oh sure it's nice if the player and even the GM doesn't think about this. Positively fabulous. Optimal.

But there is a huge gaping chasm of difference between not taking note of it during play and it not being there. Talk about taking things to a ridiculous extreme. "Just game" indeed. :rolleyes:

No, nothing you mentioned hinges on "subtext."

Try again.

Quote from: YamoOnly if enough of the target audience is, in the majority, receptive to the "message." If they could care less, it's an unjustificable addition to any well-designed game. Ballast.

  Couldn't care less...

  If they "could care less" then it implies that they actually care enough about something that they could benefit frokm walking away from it.

  Sub-text doesn't have to be built into the rulebook, it can also be built into the adventures that you write for them.  In this context, all subtext is is the idea of a game being about something that isn't immediately apparent... that the game's setting and goals are actually all about exploring a set of ideas.

  Obviously, it's more difficult to write but I think it's a level of sophistication worth striving for as a writer of adventures.  All the best horror and sci-fi has subtext, this should also be true of RPGs.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalObviously, it's more difficult to write but I think it's a level of sophistication worth striving for as a writer of adventures.  All the best horror and sci-fi has subtext, this should also be true of RPGs.

You're a fighter. Go slay the orcs and collect their treasure.

You're a mutant plant with force field powers. Go loot the ruins of post-apocalyptic Cleveland.

You're the crew of a struggling free trader. Go try to make ends meet on the edge of the Imperium.

This is gaming to me, and to 99% of hobbyists, past and present.

Subtext and theme are for frustrated novelists, not gamers.

Being a novellist involves writing, putting together and then running an RPG adventure involves writing.  Why not strive for sophistication in all forms of writing?

Besides which, like it or not,there's going to be a subtext in what it is you're playing.  The difference is, are you content to service the subtext of others or do you grab the creative initiative?

For example, most fantasy games include the social conservatism and negative view of other races that influenced Tolkien and the Narnia books.  As a result, most fantasy games are defaultly about preserving the status-quo and keeping your lands free of people of other colour who come from different cultures.

In fact, even something like Traveller carries in it the Ayn Rand-style hatred of bureaucracy and praise for the entrepreneur who finds a market and exploits it, thereby enriching himself and helping the inhabitants of the Spinward Marches.  Like your standard fantasy game, this is because the RPG has inherited the subtext of the original source material (50's and 60's Sci-fi).

The question should really be why you are content making 50 year old arguments rather than putting your own viewpoints forward.

Besides the more obvious context of gming and designing a setting etc, I think another interesting aspect is the subtext that the pcs create during the course of a campaign by their actions.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe question should really be why you are content making 50 year old arguments rather than putting your own viewpoints forward.

No, the question should really be why you don't realize that language like this is ludacrous in the context of a simple game.

Why do you want your games to be simple?  Why not aspire to more?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhy do you want your games to be simple?  Why not aspire to more?

Because of the thin line between recreation and work.