Recently I introduced a few Pathfinder players to 5E. Their immediate reaction was to go through the spells in amazement at how powerful they are. Cantrips that do ridiculous amounts of damage from extremely far away, etc. They asked how it could possibly be balanced or what the Fighter could even do in the game. Also what the point of defensive spells were if everything did so much damage.
I've never played 3.5 or Pathfinder though so I have no frame of reference. How do the spellcasters stack up in that compared to 5E power wise?
I am sure Doom will chirp in on how overpowerd spellcasters are in 5e with their more more more spells, ad nausium.
Quick excerp from 3.5.
Wizard level 5 has 4 cantrips, 3 1st, 2 2nd and 1 3rd.
Notable difference is that 3.5 wizards got bonus spells for high INT. At 18 INT a caster gets a bonus 1st through 4th level slot. max 23 INT with just level up stat bumps.
QuoteCantrips:
Acid Splash: 1d3 damage.
Level 1 spells:
Burning Hands: 1d4 damage per level with a max of 5d4.
Magic Missile: 1d4+1 damage. +1 missile per two level above 1st and a max of 5 missiles.
Shocking Grasp: 1d6 per damage per level with a max of 5d6.
Level 3 spells
Fireball: 1d6 damage per level, 20-ft. radius.
Lightning Bolt: 1d6 damage per level
A 5e level 5 wizard has 4 cantrips, 4 1st, 3 2nd and 2 3rd.
QuoteCantrip
Acid Splash: 1d6 damage with a DEX save to avoid. 2d6 at level 5, 3d6 at 11 and 4d6 at 17.
Level 1
Burning Hands: 3d6 damage. DEX save for half. +1d6 damage per spell slot level over 1st expended. So a max of 9d6 once you have a 9th level slot.
Magic Missile: 1d4+1 damage. 3 darts. +1 dart per spell slot level over 1st expended. So a max of 12 once you have a level 9 slot.
Shocking Grasp: 1d8 damage. To hit roll needed. 2d8 at level 5, 3d8 at 11 and 4d8 at 17.
Level 3 spells
Fireball: 8d6 damage, 20-ft. radius. DEX save for half. +1d6 per spell slot level over 3rd expended. So a max of 14d6 once you have a level 9 slot.
Lightning Bolt: 8d6 damage per level. DEX save for half. +1d6 per spell slot level over 3rd expended. So a max of 14d6 once you have a level 9 slot.
5e spells tend to have more initial oomph. 3.5 acid splash caps at 5d4 at level 5. 5e acid splash does not hit 4d6 until level 17. or more clearly. Compare the 3.5 fireball to the 5e one. A 5th level 3.5 wizard casts it at 5d6, while the 5th level 5e wizard casts it at 8d6. The big difference though is that the 3.5 wizards fireball gets steadily stronger while the 5e wizards does not unless they expend a higher level slot to cast it. The 3.5 can hit 20d6, and be cast at that level 4 times at level 20. Whereas the 5e can only hit 14d6 and only once at the expense of a 9th level slot. But you can cast A-LOT of freaking fireballs of diminishing power if you wanted. 15 at level 20!!!
Its a weird give and take sort of thing. Fighters in comparison tend to do pretty well even so and even without any applications of feats or min-maxing they can output a steady rate of beating. With some feat choices that damage output can jump quite a bit.
The early power boost in 5e may be part of the ideals expressed during NEXT where the designers believed that only up to around level 10 was important and that "modern" players want more power sooner. And so the characters get more flash early on.
But in the end it more or less balances out as the wizards spells are finite and the new system chews through them very quickly with no guarantee of a short or even long rest to get any back. The cantrips equate to handing the wizard a free heavy crossbow of infinite element ammo. Not the path I would have gone. But eh.
Rest assured, 5e cantrips are crap from a combat damage perspective. Wizards have to use their real spells to feel useful. From there, it largely depends on your gaming style.
If wizards have their full allotment each battle, they will seem dominant. If wizards go multiple battles without being able to afford casting a single non-cantrip spell, they will appear weak. In the middle of these extremes, wizards seem little better or worse than the fighty types.
Cantrips is the least of the system's problem. On the whole, though, Cantrips are a GOOD thing. Simply because of the key fact that it let's casters BE casters.
One thing those players need to realize is that there's no way to add any bonuses to those spell damage.
So a D8 Poison Spray will only do D8's, unlike a one handed Long Sword which can get up to 1d8+5 at 16 Strength Fighter with Duelist. Which jumps to 1d8+7 when the Fighter hits 20 Strength, which (unless you use the optional Feats rule) can be right quick.
So base damage by averages and not counting Critical hits (which some cantrips can't do), means that the Fighter will hit for about 10.5 before level 10, meanwhile the Caster will average around 7. After that, well, the balance shifts a little.
At least to my amateur level math, which I admit may be off.
However, the actual spells, they're no more powerful than the 3.x set, with Polymorph and other shape shifting powers being seriously curtailed. The rest is still a mess of Save or Die exclusionary rule effects. But that's always been D&D's biggest problem, I've believed. For others, that's a feature.
Spellcasters were grossly "overpowered" in 3.5. Spellcasters are grossly "overpowered" in 5E. If that is a problem for you, change the rules. A game that doesn't use any houserules hasn't been probably personalized yet.
There are a few things I really, really don't like about 5e casting rules (I think it's a horrible rule that interrupting a spell requires an extra feat instead of being the default, and endless cantrips without any sort of limitation diminish them and make magic boring, mundane and repetitive, and you cannot cast spells while grappling), and which I would change immediately if I play again, and even though these changes would strictly speaking reduce the overall power of spellcasting characters, that is a side effect, due to my personal aesthetical preferences when it comes to spellcasting.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;837412Cantrips is the least of the system's problem. On the whole, though, Cantrips are a GOOD thing. Simply because of the key fact that it let's casters BE casters.
What an odd tautology.
Quote from: Natty Bodak;837428What an odd tautology.
How so? I'm saying the Cantrips are the most balanced of the current magic system, and that they don't force players into a role they're not. If you choose a magic user, it's to be a magic user, right?
Cantrips mean casters don't have to carry any weapons at all, basically. I'm not sure that "let's casters be casters," as what a caster is has changed over time. They used to be limited issue nukes and physics breakers. Now they're nukes, physics breakers and machine guns. No need to learn anything else, really. I suppose that's okay, but I don't think it's a rule that a caster has to do everything with magic. Of course, if that's true, then you can put an end to any caster's career by cutting off their tongue.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;837390I've never played 3.5 or Pathfinder though so I have no frame of reference. How do the spellcasters stack up in that compared to 5E power wise?
For one thing they are not noticing that the cantrips are not auto success. You generally have to hit to do the damage and given bounded accuracy that is never a certain thing.
Another thing is that the action economy is very rigid. There is a limit to what you can chain together and what you can you quickly run out of. You get one action, one bonus action, one reaction and one interaction. And for some classes, mostly fighters, you can get multiple attacks if you pick the attack action. Mind you don't get multiple actions but multiple attacks.
I been running a 5e campaign since the summer of 2014 and I don't have any complaints about class balance.
Quote from: Beagle;837418...and you cannot cast spells while grappling...
Hang on, what? I didn't see this in the Grappling Rules, the Grappled Condition or in the spell chapter. Where does it "spell" this out in the rulebook?
Quote from: Omega;837397I am sure Doom will chirp in on how overpowerd spellcasters are in 5e with their more more more spells, ad nausium.
Good lord, man, can you ease up on the butthurt? Please?
Anyway, cantrips are a bit of a problem. They don't do amazing damage, but they warp the game. Now, spellcasters have a choice of damage types--they're always going to have a way to hit vulnerable monsters at their weakest, and they'll always have a way to get around resistances.
The worst of the lot is Sacred Flame. A cleric basically has no reason to wield a weapon after level 4, because Sacred Flame does comparable (or more) damage, works on high armor targets, is a ranged attack you can trivially use on adjacent targets, and cover is irrelevant, making it good at long range or in the middle of a melee, too. That's alot of versatility for a "weak" cantrip. Toss in that a cleric will "Aid" every out of combat roll, and it makes sense to consider if WotC really thought about these cantrips much at all.
There are also a few feats and abilities to make cantrips hit harder.
QuoteBut you can cast A-LOT of freaking fireballs of diminishing power if you wanted. 15 at level 20!!!
This is a pretty good point--spellcasters get LOTS of spells (and some get to refresh some spells after a short rest, or through various special abilities), in addition to being able to often cast more than one spell a round. To assert spells are finite is technically correct, but realistically bizarre; the kind of firepower that would exhaust the spells would have the non-spellcasters standing around comparatively useless for many rounds and probably long out of hit points anyway.
That said, melee combatants can do amazing damage, especially if they cookie-cutter for the problematic feats like 2hweapon fighting or the archery equivalent. Conditionally weaker armor (and a system that doesn't reward armor much anyway) doesn't really offset the greater risks of being in melee, and lots more creatures are resistant to nonmagic damage than anything a spellcaster tosses out.
The big real change from 3.5 to 5e is magic item creation has been removed from 5e, at least for the wizards. Thus, the DM can balance things out in much the same way AD&D did: make most magic items for fighters and nonspellcasters...and consider creating monsters that are magic-immune.
So, yes, there are problems, you can ignore them and cry if people point them out...or you can realize you can fix them, without necessarily changing the rules. Although I suspect changing the rules will be necessary in campaigns with players that read carefully and make even semi-optimal decisions.
Basically 3.5 and I assume PF you start with a slightly lesser spell and can end up with some broke ass shit quickly with all the add ons.
In 5th edition they are slightly better but are much more static including how fast saves go up etc.
With Hit point inflation as the balancing tool that makes 5th edition spells even weaker.
I think 3.5 decently built caster not even optimized is more powerful.
I have ass tons of experience in 3.5 and have only played 5th up to 5th so not sure how my opinion will bear out but even the killer save or die spells don't exist like they do in 3.5
just my opinion and not saying anything else is right or wrong for either game.
Quote from: Necrozius;837448Hang on, what? I didn't see this in the Grappling Rules, the Grappled Condition or in the spell chapter. Where does it "spell" this out in the rulebook?
As of last check grappling does not impede casting, or even attacking. Not even the grappler feat does that.
For that matter the freaking restrained condition in no way stops anyone from casting or attacking.
You are better off trying to disarm the caster, or swordsman, of their focus, or weapon, than to grapple.
Quote from: Omega;837467As of last check grappling does not impede casting, or even attacking. Not even the grappler feat does that.
For that matter the freaking restrained condition in no way stops anyone from casting or attacking.
You are better off trying to disarm the caster, or swordsman, of their focus, or weapon, than to grapple.
How are they restrained though? If their hands are being held, or mouth being covered during the restraining, then they won't be able to meet the spell requirements.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;837468How are they restrained though? If their hands are being held, or mouth being covered during the restraining, then they won't be able to meet the spell requirements.
Thats the goofball thing with 5e. All restrained does is stop you from moving around. It reduces your movement to zero. The restrained is at disadvantage on attacks and those attacking it have advantage. And disadvantage on DEX saves.
All grapple does is reduce speed to zero.
That is it.
At least in Next you could take a grappled target and on another successful check then restrain them. But even in Next restrain just stops movement.
I am not sure there is a way to physically silence or restrain limbs in 5e short of asking the DM and doing a DEX or STR check vs the target.
Quote from: Omega;837472Thats the goofball thing with 5e. All restrained does is stop you from moving around. It reduces your movement to zero. The restrained is at disadvantage on attacks and those attacking it have advantage. And disadvantage on DEX saves.
All grapple does is reduce speed to zero.
That is it.
At least in Next you could take a grappled target and on another successful check then restrain them. But even in Next restrain just stops movement.
I am not sure there is a way to physically silence or restrain limbs in 5e short of asking the DM and doing a DEX or STR check vs the target.
But just in terms of how the mechanic would be represented in the game, the character would have to be restrained SOMEHOW, he wouldn't just be pinned down by a magic forcefield. One of those arms pinning him down could be pinning the guy's mouth or hand. That I think would just be left to DM fiat.
Quote from: Necrozius;837448Hang on, what? I didn't see this in the Grappling Rules, the Grappled Condition or in the spell chapter. Where does it "spell" this out in the rulebook?
Sorry, my statement was not worded very well; the official rules state that free movement and so on are necessaryfor casting spells with somatic components, but do not mention grappling per se. This is a curious ommission, that in my opinion needs to be corrected: thus, while the official rules do not explicitly state that grappling prevents casting (with somatic components), I consider this to be an oversight and would insist of an according houserule to fix this issue.
Quote from: Doom;837452Anyway, cantrips are a bit of a problem. They don't do amazing damage, but they warp the game. Now, spellcasters have a choice of damage types--they're always going to have a way to hit vulnerable monsters at their weakest, and they'll always have a way to get around resistances.
The worst of the lot is Sacred Flame. A cleric basically has no reason to wield a weapon after level 4, because Sacred Flame does comparable (or more) damage, works on high armor targets, is a ranged attack you can trivially use on adjacent targets, and cover is irrelevant, making it good at long range or in the middle of a melee, too. That's alot of versatility for a "weak" cantrip. Toss in that a cleric will "Aid" every out of combat roll, and it makes sense to consider if WotC really thought about these cantrips much at all.
Sacred Flame is one of those eye-rolling cantrips, as it circumvents so much of the regular combat cantrip dynamics, as you've delineated. Since you add your PB to your spell-casting save, and not all creatures have good DEX (let alone NPCs crafted on PC class templates having DEX as a class save), you can get away with even middling WIS scores on your Clerics. And Clerics have a nasty spread of early Bonus Action spells to tinker with (Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Spiritual Weapon, Mass Healing Word), so their offensive and defensive action economy starts out high.
Clerics, just like any caster, can blow their wad fast. But they have what it takes to go nova, as well as be that "reset button." That's where the Short/Long Rest economy comes in. That's the primary leash, hold it tight.
But that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the infinite utility cantrips. Those can disrupt a game's social and exploration facets like none other. By sheer dint of being infinite, you can spam just so much environmentally altering stuff. It's likely to tick off the non-magical because it can be a sheer constant. Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation/Thaumaturgy/Druidcraft, Guidance (the "Aid" Doom is likely talking about), and Message can saturate play in ways that'll make it hard to process. Throw in the new Elemental Evil tinkering cantrips like Control Normal Fires, Create Bonfire, Gust (Fus Roh Dah!), Mold Earth, and Shape Water and you can have a field day with creatives just bullying down tables with hijinks.
Quantity is a Quality all its own.
Yes, yes, you need to play with non-assholes, but I also want to support creative play. Mage Hand away some potential opponent's 10 lbs. or less weapon or MacGuffin 30' up a tree or roof once, awesome, clever. Do that constantly with even the slightest challenges?, tedious. When you have a hammer, all you begin to see is nails.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;837473But just in terms of how the mechanic would be represented in the game, the character would have to be restrained SOMEHOW, he wouldn't just be pinned down by a magic forcefield. One of those arms pinning him down could be pinning the guy's mouth or hand. That I think would just be left to DM fiat.
I already mentioned, quoted, and cited this multiple times before on this forum:
Grapple and Restrained are explicitly defined conditions already; they don't prevent spell-casting. (5e D&D Basic .pdf, August 2014. p.106, 107.)
Grappling requires one hand for the attempt. There is no mention of what is grabbed, only that it imposes the Grappled condition (which reduces Spd to zero). It also has no maintenance requirement; it explicitly does not state whether grappling occupies one of your hands thereafter success. So if you have multiple attacks like a Fighter, a valid interpretation is that you are tucking their heads all between your thighs (or something), while leaving the bulk of them to stick outside of your 5' square. And they all have free use of their arms to mess with your Fighter on their turn.
(5e D&D Basic .pdf, August 2014. p.74.)
Somatic and Material components both only need one hand AND it may be the same hand. (5e D&D Basic .pdf, August 2014. p.79.)
And the GM resource to assist with creating a different, unspecified action is built in under the Improvise an Action tan box. (5e D&D Basic .pdf, August 2014. p.72.)
Quote from: Beagle;837478Sorry, my statement was not worded very well; the official rules state that free movement and so on are necessaryfor casting spells with somatic components, but do not mention grappling per se. This is a curious ommission, that in my opinion needs to be corrected: thus, while the official rules do not explicitly state that grappling prevents casting (with somatic components), I consider this to be an oversight and would insist of an according houserule to fix this issue.
Yeah I agree: it just doesn't make sense for somatic-required spells being doable without issue while grappled... At least not without an attack of opportunity...
We had this exact issue in our last game and the table was divided over it. We ended up just going by the book and agreed to look it up later. You got my hopes up that there was a definite answer. Ah well. :)
Quote from: Natty Bodak;837428What an odd tautology.
Because having Willie the Wizard blow his spell wad in the first fight and spend the rest of the time bitching that he's out of spells is how I want to spend my afternoon.
It becomes less of an issue with more levels under the belt, but Caster vs Everything Else is a different argument.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837495Because having Willie the Wizard blow his spell wad in the first fight and spend the rest of the time bitching that he's out of spells is how I want to spend my afternoon.
It becomes less of an issue with more levels under the belt, but Caster vs Everything Else is a different argument.
If Willy the Wizard cannot manage his resources, it is his own damn fault. You cannot truly reward smart thinking and ressourcefulness if you don't occasionally punish recklessness and bad ressource management. In the long run, having meagre ressources and the resulting increase in tension and relevance of actual tatctical decisions resulting from it are a decent upgrade for the actual game, and probably are worth it, even if that means listening to the mage player's whining while he needs to readjust his entitlement issues.
Quote from: Beagle;837507If Willy the Wizard cannot manage his resources, it is his own damn fault. You cannot truly reward smart thinking and ressourcefulness if you don't occasionally punish recklessness and bad ressource management. In the long run, having meagre ressources and the resulting increase in tension and relevance of actual tatctical decisions resulting from it are a decent upgrade for the actual game, and probably are worth it, even if that means listening to the mage player's whining while he needs to readjust his entitlement issues.
QFT. WotC really needs to have some non-spellcaster players have input on the rules.
Quote from: Opaopajr;837483Grappling requires one hand for the attempt. There is no mention of what is grabbed, only that it imposes the Grappled condition (which reduces Spd to zero). It also has no maintenance requirement; it explicitly does not state whether grappling occupies one of your hands thereafter success. So if you have multiple attacks like a Fighter, a valid interpretation is that you are tucking their heads all between your thighs (or something), while leaving the bulk of them to stick outside of your 5' square. And they all have free use of their arms to mess with your Fighter on their turn.
(5e D&D Basic .pdf, August 2014. p.74.)
Except that the entry on grapple does not say your hand is freed up after you grapple them. It specifically says "Using one free hand you try to seize the target." More importantly under moving the grappled target it says you "Drag or carry". I dont see anything there about Thigh Mastering the hapless target.
Same applies to spell focuses (or components for that matter). The entry just says you need a free hand to access it. By your reading then there is nothing to prevent someone from wearing it around their neck as a necklace or embed it in a bracer like a gem and just touching it as needed. And thus never have to worry about being disarmed of it.
Next.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837495Because having Willie the Wizard blow his spell wad in the first fight and spend the rest of the time bitching that he's out of spells is how I want to spend my afternoon.
It becomes less of an issue with more levels under the belt, but Caster vs Everything Else is a different argument.
Then why the hell did you take a caster in a game where it says right there in the class entry that you have VERY limited ammo? That is like using a bow and then bitching about being out of arrows.
Quote from: Opaopajr;837483Sacred Flame is one of those eye-rolling cantrips, as it circumvents so much of the regular combat cantrip dynamics, as you've delineated. Since you add your PB to your spell-casting save, and not all creatures have good DEX (let alone NPCs crafted on PC class templates having DEX as a class save), you can get away with even middling WIS scores on your Clerics. And Clerics have a nasty spread of early Bonus Action spells to tinker with (Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Spiritual Weapon, Mass Healing Word), so their offensive and defensive action economy starts out high.
Clerics, just like any caster, can blow their wad fast. But they have what it takes to go nova, as well as be that "reset button." That's where the Short/Long Rest economy comes in. That's the primary leash, hold it tight.
But that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the infinite utility cantrips. Those can disrupt a game's social and exploration facets like none other. By sheer dint of being infinite, you can spam just so much environmentally altering stuff. It's likely to tick off the non-magical because it can be a sheer constant. Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation/Thaumaturgy/Druidcraft, Guidance (the "Aid" Doom is likely talking about), and Message can saturate play in ways that'll make it hard to process. Throw in the new Elemental Evil tinkering cantrips like Control Normal Fires, Create Bonfire, Gust (Fus Roh Dah!), Mold Earth, and Shape Water and you can have a field day with creatives just bullying down tables with hijinks.
Quantity is a Quality all its own.
Yes, yes, you need to play with non-assholes, but I also want to support creative play. Mage Hand away some potential opponent's 10 lbs. or less weapon or MacGuffin 30' up a tree or roof once, awesome, clever. Do that constantly with even the slightest challenges?, tedious. When you have a hammer, all you begin to see is nails.
I agree with this.
The cantrips don't do huge damage but neither does a standard fighter with a bow unless he specialises.
Our Warlock was doing 1d10+3 damage at 3rd level (til the other guys killed him) which was slightly more than the Archer although the Warlock had advantages, needed one hand, no restriction on space etc. and the archer could trigger a second wind at some point. Yes the mage needed to roll to hit but he has hte same "thaco" as a fighter anyway so ...
Now that was okay and didn't seem too unbalanced but the message cantrip and the prestitigious mage hand the rogue uses all the time so make fundermental differences.
One of the interesting things is Eldritch knights, and other "hybrids" who don't bother to pack missile weapons, they just rely on their cantrip for missile after all its as good as carrying a bow, it never runs out, it doesn't need to be carried about so it totally makes sense.
In addition my party have been fighting undead/demons and so on and need silver or magical weapons a fair bit of the time and the pew pew of the casters is still effective.
So I think Cantrip do have a major influence if its keeping the PCs linked with walkie talkies using message or eliminating the risk of traps with mage hand or pickpocketing at range with same, to the limitless ammo of the firebolt/eldrich blast/ray of frost etc.....
I haven't had complaints exactly but a few grumbles and it certainly led to character choices at 3rd level with Arcane trickster and Eldrich knight being a change to the players initial character plans.
Quote from: Doom;837512QFT. WotC really needs to have some non-spellcaster players have input on the rules.
They did. That is why non casters, especially fighters can pump out more damage a round than a caster with Eldritch Bolt ever can.
Example: Jan's fighter and my warlock are about to hit level 11.
EB does 1d10, Jans bow does 1d8 with her longbow. We both have the same attacks per round at the same level bumps of 5 and 11. Ok, So so far I am out DPSing her. Except that she has Archery, so she is hitting a little more frequently than I am. Then at level 5 she gets Sharpshooter and uses the -5 to hit penalty to crank her damage up to 1d8+10 for what is the equivalent now of a -3 to hit. Her attacks can benefit from a magic bow or arrows where I do not. Thus if she can get ahold of them then her to-hit loss can be removed and her damage bumps up a little again. And me and Kefra sat down and spent a month of downtime working together to craft a batch of +1 arrows for her.
It gets even better for melee fighter who doesnt have to worry about ammo. And by the way I carry an extra quiver of arrows for Jan.
There appears to be a distinct lack of enemy archers utilizing their range advantage in some folks' games. Wondering how some groups play out the situations where a tower must be assaulted by force? Wondering why some groups appear to not utilize bow range in their party's tactics?
Quote from: Old One Eye;837528There appears to be a distinct lack of enemy archers utilizing their range advantage in some folks' games. Wondering how some groups play out the situations where a tower must be assaulted by force? Wondering why some groups appear to not utilize bow range in their party's tactics?
For the same reasons some groups charge in and attack willy nilly. Or groups that never ever try to negotiate, talk, barter, intimidate, trick or interact at all. Different play styles, lack of imagination, how they were conditioned to play, etc.
I've had to game with these sorts. Some are just impatient. They want to get on with the adventure. Some dont like someone else having a moment in the spotlight while they stand in the background. Some just want to kill kill kill.
Quote from: Omega;837534For the same reasons some groups charge in and attack willy nilly. Or groups that never ever try to negotiate, talk, barter, intimidate, trick or interact at all. Different play styles, lack of imagination, how they were conditioned to play, etc.
I've had to game with these sorts. Some are just impatient. They want to get on with the adventure. Some dont like someone else having a moment in the spotlight while they stand in the background. Some just want to kill kill kill.
Well, I will certainly agree that if the inherent advantages of some attack forms are ignored in the game, then other attack forms will appear to be more powerful in comparison.
Quote from: Omega;837523Except that the entry on grapple does not say your hand is freed up after you grapple them. It specifically says "Using one free hand you try to seize the target." More importantly under moving the grappled target it says you "Drag or carry". I dont see anything there about Thigh Mastering the hapless target.
Same applies to spell focuses (or components for that matter). The entry just says you need a free hand to access it. By your reading then there is nothing to prevent someone from wearing it around their neck as a necklace or embed it in a bracer like a gem and just touching it as needed. And thus never have to worry about being disarmed of it.
Next.
It deliberately says nothing. It is completely up to GM fiat. "Grab a creature or wrestle with it" covers the whole wrestling aspect that certain PCs like, including figure four leg holds, et al. There's no definition beyond vague comments and a reference to the conditions section.
Maintaining a hold has nothing to do with the initial seizing a target requirement. The rules are way more concerned with removing the condition. Further, with drag or carry, it in no way explains what is required for maintaining a grapple while moving. No definition, thus open to interpretation, thus guess the fun in AL or mixed edition tables?
It is all deliberately vague for GMs to hash through. You may choose to interpret that grapple occupies X amount of hands for your campaign's grapplers. I don't know why one would do so, because all their opponents will have their hands free regardless of being grappled (unless you reinterpret the whole section in your campaign under Improvise an Action).
I don't mind a few deliberately vague rules, but this section is a bit annoying. It annoys in Org Play or mixed edition scenes because it doesn't explicitly mess with spellcasting, and -- as part of its give and take -- similarly doesn't mess with hand economy of the grappler either. It's like an intentional backing off of the subject saying to all sides, "hey guys, we're all winners here!"
Grappling When you want to
grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. Using
at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check, a Strength (Athletics)
check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you
succeed, you subject the target to the grappled condition (see appendix A). The
condition
specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).
Escaping a Grapple. A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Strength (Athletics) check.
Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move,
you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two sizes smaller than you.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 74.)
As for S&M components it again leaves it open to interpretation.
Forget about wearing it (which is a good, flavorful idea by the way,) to avoid disarms and the like. You could juggle it all in one hand. Naked, bound caster frees one hand and grabs a wand/crystal/amulet/sprig of mistletoe -- boom, back in business.
Now that really messes with setting development because now the GM has to figure out new ways to tamp down casters from escape. This affects things like realm jurisprudence and the like. Sure it can create new adventures as "the evil caster once again escaped his imprisonment!" But it can just as easily grow stale and lead to more permanent and direct protocol of "just cut out his tongue and thumbs already. If he's found innocent we'll just cleric magic them back on... or not."
The openness to appeal to all camps starts to warp assumed setting. Several earlier edition restrictions actually made things easier overall, from bookkeeping to setting conceits. This is another section that leaves me rolling my eyes -- and I do like 5e on the whole.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful
gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell
requires a somatic component, the
caster must have free
use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects,
specified in parentheses in the component entry.
A character can use a component pouch or a
spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of
the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is
indicated for a component, a character must have that
specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is
consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this
component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster
must have a hand free to access these
components, but it can be the same hand that he or she
uses to perform somatic components.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 79.)
3e and up casters are more akin to Dr Strange or Zatanna. They rely nigh purely on their magic and and so have an essentially unlimited basic "magic bolt" and then an array of limited or situational utility spells.
Quote from: Beagle;837507If Willy the Wizard cannot manage his resources, it is his own damn fault. You cannot truly reward smart thinking and ressourcefulness if you don't occasionally punish recklessness and bad ressource management. In the long run, having meagre ressources and the resulting increase in tension and relevance of actual tatctical decisions resulting from it are a decent upgrade for the actual game, and probably are worth it, even if that means listening to the mage player's whining while he needs to readjust his entitlement issues.
In my experience, post-3.x, it's not the Wizard player that complains, it's the rest of the Non-Casters that panic when their Magic Go Juice dispenser is out. And so they shut the progress down, wait the prerequisite time to recharge his/her batteries and then they move on.
Quote from: Old One Eye;837536Well, I will certainly agree that if the inherent advantages of some attack forms are ignored in the game, then other attack forms will appear to be more powerful in comparison.
Unfortunately, this is a big part of D&D. Many of your typical monsters (troll, bullette, ogre) really don't have much in the way of ranged attacks, and even dragons don't have breath weapons that are more than a single turn's movement in range. The 5e iteration has really favored ranged attacks for the players, without giving much to the monsters.
The game has always favoured range and reach. Possibly because that is how it is in real world combat. But like in the real world, once the opponent is up close, if you do not have a melee weapon then you are probably in big trouble. Even the casters will be hurting if they cannot bring into play some spell that wont hit themselves as well.
I'd be hard pressed to NOT say 3.5/PF casters are stronger than 5e, by a lot. But what sort of metric besides "can non-casters do anything?" were your 3.5/PF friends concerned about, mAcular Chaotic? Many spells don't work like they used to, a lot of previous edition assumptions don't carry over.
The big balancing factor is that Fighters and the like can keep on trucking despite a tighter S/L Rest economy. Even ammo whittles down slower (1 min search to recoup 1/2 expended, round down) -- and thrown weapons aren't labeled ammo -- so wilderness treks and long dungeon delves are fine for most non-magical classes. And if you take the DMG S/L Rest and Healing alternate rule suggestions, it helps them even more.
However, if you throw away that big limiter you can easily careen on back to the 15 minute adventure day.
Quote from: Opaopajr;837675I'd be hard pressed to NOT say 3.5/PF casters are stronger than 5e, by a lot. But what sort of metric besides "can non-casters do anything?" were your 3.5/PF friends concerned about, mAcular Chaotic? Many spells don't work like they used to, a lot of previous edition assumptions don't carry over.
The big balancing factor is that Fighters and the like can keep on trucking despite a tighter S/L Rest economy. Even ammo whittles down slower (1 min search to recoup 1/2 expended, round down) -- and thrown weapons aren't labeled ammo -- so wilderness treks and long dungeon delves are fine for most non-magical classes. And if you take the DMG S/L Rest and Healing alternate rule suggestions, it helps them even more.
However, if you throw away that big limiter you can easily careen on back to the 15 minute adventure day.
Are those ammo rules realistic? I mean have you every played Nerf with you kid in the woods......
Quote from: jibbajibba;837703Are those ammo rules realistic? I mean have you every played Nerf with you kid in the woods......
Yes, I've played with NERF before. Granted arrows, bolts, and darts are generally larger, though less garishly neon, than most modern NERF ammunition. But, sure, I guess we can belabor the point about the verisimilitude of ammo rate loss amid scenery... in a world saturated in magic.
:rolleyes:
The ammo rules are there for simplicity. Besides, if you have a time crunch going on you can easily let the players decide the risk between losing 10 rounds and recouped ammunition. As an abstraction it's quite serviceable.
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the
ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if
you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each
time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece
of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver,
case, or other container is part of the attack.
At the
end of the battle, you can recover half your expended
ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 45.)
Quote from: Opaopajr;837709Yes, I've played with NERF before. Granted arrows, bolts, and darts are generally larger, though less garishly neon, than most modern NERF ammunition. But, sure, I guess we can belabor the point about the verisimilitude of ammo rate loss amid scenery... in a world saturated in magic.
:rolleyes:
The ammo rules are there for simplicity. Besides, if you have a time crunch going on you can easily let the players decide the risk between losing 10 rounds and recouped ammunition. As an abstraction it's quite serviceable.
Common tactic in NERF wars, and theres a group up north of us, is to reload with the stuff the other side is shooting at you with.
As for 5e. The retrieve half makes sense really. Alot of misses with arrows and such are going to go who knows where, or hit a wall and possibly break. In LARPs with boffer arrows a recurring complaint is that in the chaos of combat that the arrows get stepped on and broken.
So Jan with her quiver of 20 arrows has technically about 30 shots before the last arrow breaks or whatevers.
Quote from: Omega;837724Common tactic in NERF wars, and theres a group up north of us, is to reload with the stuff the other side is shooting at you with.
As for 5e. The retrieve half makes sense really. Alot of misses with arrows and such are going to go who knows where, or hit a wall and possibly break. In LARPs with boffer arrows a recurring complaint is that in the chaos of combat that the arrows get stepped on and broken.
So Jan with her quiver of 20 arrows has technically about 30 shots before the last arrow breaks or whatevers.
well technically she has 39 right as its recursive :)
With real arrows though if you miss its not going 10 feet its going 100m if you can comb an area of forest in a cone 100m deep in a minute you must have been a great boyscout :)
Quote from: Opaopajr;837709Yes, I've played with NERF before. Granted arrows, bolts, and darts are generally larger, though less garishly neon, than most modern NERF ammunition. But, sure, I guess we can belabor the point about the verisimilitude of ammo rate loss amid scenery... in a world saturated in magic.
:rolleyes:
The ammo rules are there for simplicity. Besides, if you have a time crunch going on you can easily let the players decide the risk between losing 10 rounds and recouped ammunition. As an abstraction it's quite serviceable.
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the
ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if
you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each
time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece
of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver,
case, or other container is part of the attack. At the
end of the battle, you can recover half your expended
ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 45.)
Well to start with realism round falling, ammo, armour, how much you can carry, the relative advantage of a pick versus a mace all of these have nothing to do with the world being magic or not magic :)
Magic is a system imposed on the underlying reality. If that reality deviates too far from the perceptions of the players the game looses coherence.
To whit I may be a super ninja who can run vertical walls and dance on water but does that mean I can carry 10,000 shuriken hidden in my sleeves?
Ammo recovery is a convenience I agree and I have no objection but we should realise one of the reasons its there to give a boost to missile fighters who otherwise loose out to casters very quickly. That is why that ranger in the D&D cartonn has his uber magic solve any issue magical bow :)
In a genuine game situation a caster's cantrip is akin to a pistol with unlimited ammo. It can be used one handed whilst carrying other stuff or climbing a rope or poking through a hole in a wall or whatever.
It doesn't have the range of a bow but there is a reason that pistols are popular in urban enclosed spaces.
A wizard at 11th level can attack with their unlimited firebolt for 3d10 damage compared to the non specialist fighter who can shoot 3 arrows for 1d8 + Dex. They have the same chance to hit so the average damage is close and I can think of loads of real in game scenarios where the party are pinned down in a siege, running for their lives, or whatever and the ammo issue will build up.
Like I noted cantrips are a real reason why 2 of my PCs went "hybrid" (Eldrich Knight and Arcane Trickster) versus straight (Thief and Champion).
You went into Arcane Trickster & Eldritch Knight for the combat cantrips? Uh... ok. That's not where I see the power, I see it in utility cantrips. But whatever floats your boat. :idunno:
Was your table using Feats? (Magic Initiate, Sharpshooter, Alert, etc.)
Quote from: Opaopajr;837753You went into Arcane Trickster & Eldritch Knight for the combat cantrips? Uh... ok. That's not where I see the power, I see it in utility cantrips. But whatever floats your boat. :idunno:
Was your table using Feats? (Magic Initiate, Sharpshooter, Alert, etc.)
The fighter selected for flexibility of the range attack the rogue used message like an always on combat mic to the whole team and mage hand like all the time.
He also really liked sleep versus the massed goblins they fought for the first few sessions so he picked it up as soon as he hit 3rd (start of session 4).
They will get feats but they are still 3rd level (yes I have reduced XP SIGNIFICANTLY....) after 6 4 hour sessions.
Quote from: jibbajibba;837726well technically she has 39 right as its recursive :)
With real arrows though if you miss its not going 10 feet its going 100m if you can comb an area of forest in a cone 100m deep in a minute you must have been a great boyscout :)
38 since you round down. But whos counting? :cool:
Bring more rangers. (So you can lose more arrows...)
With regard to finding spent ammo, I like the simplicity of finding 50% of ammo.
In reality, it is challenging to recover ammo. Having both shot target and hunted with a bow, I can tell you it is not as easy as it sound. When shooting target or hunting, you are shooting at a stationary target, so you know where to look. When firing an arrow at deer, you with get only one shot most of the time. Once, I have gotten off two because when I missed the deer ran only 10 yards then came back, apparently not seeing me.
Arrows that hit the ground can sometimes get buried up to the fletching or more. Even with today's modern off-color nocks and fletchings, it's hard to find the ones that miss. Now imagine combat where everyone is moving around the forest and you are shooting in different directions. And forget about finding sling stones. Spring would generally harder than late fall/winter.
Quote from: Opaopajr;837753You went into Arcane Trickster & Eldritch Knight for the combat cantrips? Uh... ok. That's not where I see the power, I see it in utility cantrips. But whatever floats your boat. :idunno:
Was your table using Feats? (Magic Initiate, Sharpshooter, Alert, etc.)
I really wish EK wasn't focused on being a blaster. It's a FIGHTER! You get killy-death dealing out of the box. Giving the EK more buff ability would have been much better.
And yes, I realize you can grab a few free spells as you level, but still, it's only a few.
Quote from: jibbajibba;837760The fighter selected for flexibility of the range attack the rogue used message like an always on combat mic to the whole team and mage hand like all the time.
He also really liked sleep versus the massed goblins they fought for the first few sessions so he picked it up as soon as he hit 3rd (start of session 4).
They will get feats but they are still 3rd level (yes I have reduced XP SIGNIFICANTLY....) after 6 4 hour sessions.
Message is blocked by
Quote1ft of Stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3ft of wood.
The spell can turn corners or get through through openings. But all that can easily use up its 120ft range fast in a dungeon or forest. Also it only targets one person at a time. Not a problem while exploring though. But alot can happen in the 2 rounds between "all clear" and "urk!"
As for Mage Hand. What are they doing with it other than remote lock picking or remote trap disarming? It still cannot hold a weapon or be used in combat, or carry heavy things?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837809I really wish EK wasn't focused on being a blaster. It's a FIGHTER! You get killy-death dealing out of the box. Giving the EK more buff ability would have been much better.
And yes, I realize you can grab a few free spells as you level, but still, it's only a few.
I am running an Elditch Knight after the current session ends and I can assure you they are not focused on blasty spells. You only get 2. And with some feat choices or just plain stat bonuses you can out-perform those with your melee weapon. Havent decided on what cantrips to take yet. Maybe Ray of Frost and some utility spell.
Quote from: Omega;837849I am running an Elditch Knight after the current session ends and I can assure you they are not focused on blasty spells. You only get 2. And with some feat choices or just plain stat bonuses you can out-perform those with your melee weapon. Havent decided on what cantrips to take yet. Maybe Ray of Frost and some utility spell.
Thought they were limited ti Evocation spells.
Quote from: Beagle;837507If Willy the Wizard cannot manage his resources, it is his own damn fault. You cannot truly reward smart thinking and ressourcefulness if you don't occasionally punish recklessness and bad ressource management. In the long run, having meagre ressources and the resulting increase in tension and relevance of actual tatctical decisions resulting from it are a decent upgrade for the actual game, and probably are worth it, even if that means listening to the mage player's whining while he needs to readjust his entitlement issues.
You have that game already it's called Dnd 1-2e. Go play it and quit complaining that most people don't like that much bookeeping anymore.
@Doom, try this...stop playing with asshats.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837851Thought they were limited ti Evocation spells.
Evocation/Abjuration with 3-4 free picks. Also an EK is far better off using close quarters melee spells than doing the classic bladesinger thing. Fact is the VB is probably a better option for that style.
In either case you will be at disadvantage if you use non-touch spells in melee.
Quote from: Omega;837848Message is blocked by
The spell can turn corners or get through through openings. But all that can easily use up its 120ft range fast in a dungeon or forest. Also it only targets one person at a time. Not a problem while exploring though. But a lot can happen in the 2 rounds between "all clear" and "urk!"
As for Mage Hand. What are they doing with it other than remote lock picking or remote trap disarming? It still cannot hold a weapon or be used in combat, or carry heavy things?
Its general scouting feeding back information etc.
So the Trickster took Find Familiar as a spell and has a giant (well large) spider as his familiar. The spider scouts ahead on the ceiling the rogue follows at range and then messages back to one of the party what he "sees".
Leads to very cautious play.
The mage hand does all the creative stuff an invisible hand that can pick pockets and remove traps can do at range :)
So removing weapons from opponents (empty a quiver of arrows, slide a sword out of a sheath), tying or untying ropes for traps, alarms and escapes.
Just the typical stuff.
I don't mind it at all its creative and smart but it is a thing and its constant.
What, no love for Abjuration? Are Shield, Counterspell, and Dispel Magic no longer exciting? :(
As for EK cantrips, other than my favorite utility ones, I vote for Gust (Fus Roh Dah!) or Friends. Friends will be fun for when you persuade or intimidate others, then when they get hostile to you beat them down for XP and take their stuff. You could take the Pirate background and then you can get away with some of it with your Bad Reputation, too!
:p
(Yes, I know GMs won't let Friends be abused that easily. Poor murderhobos...)
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837851Thought they were limited ti Evocation spells.
Meant utility cantrips.
Eldritch Knight starts with 3 1st level spells, 2 must be from abjuration and evocation. Later spells must be abjuration and evocation until they reach level 8.
The Arcane Trickster is doing it right. Too bad it's becoming a tedious constant. I've already seen similar, and expected it beforehand.
(Knowing now what I suspected then, I think I still would prefer cantrips given total slots equal to spell casting attribute + PB.)
Quote from: jibbajibba;837867So the Trickster took Find Familiar as a spell and has a giant (well large) spider as his familiar.
The mage hand does all the creative stuff an invisible hand that can pick pockets and remove traps can do at range :)
So removing weapons from opponents (empty a quiver of arrows, slide a sword out of a sheath), tying or untying ropes for traps, alarms and escapes.
Just the typical stuff.
I don't mind it at all its creative and smart but it is a thing and its constant.
1: I assume you mean its just a large normal spider. up to like a tarantula?
2: I assume that this is outside of combat and targets of these disarming actions are getting some sort of chance to spot this? They still have to make the thieves tools uses to disarm traps. So there is always the chance of failure which could alert anyone nearby. So some risk with the use.
And of course the enemy can do the same thing to them.
Quote from: jibbajibba;837867The mage hand does all the creative stuff an invisible hand that can pick pockets and remove traps can do at range :)
So removing weapons from opponents (empty a quiver of arrows, slide a sword out of a sheath), tying or untying ropes for traps, alarms and escapes.
Just the typical stuff.
I don't mind it at all its creative and smart but it is a thing and its constant.
A friend of mine affectionately refers to Mage Hand as "Diego Maradona's Hand of God," which is some sort of soccer reference about getting away with something I guess? But, I don't think Mage Hand is supposed to be invisible. It's truly the spell of a million uses.
IIRC, Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand becomes invisible. Like how Illusionist Wizards get Minor Illusion cantrip altered with both sound and visual, etc.
(edit: "I'm just heading the ball, honest!" — Maradona :p)
Quote from: Opaopajr;837881IIRC, Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand becomes invisible. Like how Illusionist Wizards get Minor Illusion cantrip altered with both sound and visual, etc.
(edit: "I'm just heading the ball, honest!" — Maradona :p)
Oh! That's a pretty sweet benny then.
Quote from: Marleycat;837857@Doom, try this...stop playing with asshats.
??? Can you clarify? Are you talking about players at my table?
Quote from: Omega;83776338 since you round down. But whos counting? :cool:
It's 39 if you're careful to only shoot an even number of arrows before collecting, unless you only have one arrow; you shoot 2 arrows and collect one back (or 2N with N back), so until you have one arrow left you can get two shots per arrow you lose: 38. Then the last arrow only gives you one shot, so total of 39. It's only 20 if you shoot one arrow per combat. I'm counting, that's who. :p
(It's kind of like how a spherical area of effect ends up being square on a grid, or flanking diagonally to minimize non-AoO shifting, or a defensive line with the grain on a hex map.)
Quote from: Warboss Squee;837809I really wish EK wasn't focused on being a blaster. It's a FIGHTER! You get killy-death dealing out of the box. Giving the EK more buff ability would have been much better.
And yes, I realize you can grab a few free spells as you level, but still, it's only a few.
What sort of buff spells are you looking for? Because I can imagine several fun Champions with the Magic Initiate feat. Fighters get extra ability increases to spend...
Quote from: Omega;8378751: I assume you mean its just a large normal spider. up to like a tarantula?
I see the most awesome prank for a Moon Druid-2/Warlock-1(Great Old One patron): turn into a giant spider (Large creature) while stepping out of hiding, crushing the newly summoned itty bitty spider familiar and telepathically telling the Wizard "Hi, I'm your familiar." My divination school Wizard would totally spend a low foretelling roll and a Suggestion spell to make the other guy believe it, just because it would be that hilarious.
Thats the sort of thing Kefra would do. One session Jan woke up webbed up and Kefra in giant spider form gloating gleefully about how she was going to eat her. Slowly.
Quote from: rawma;837889It's 39 if you're careful to only shoot an even number of arrows before collecting, unless you only have one arrow; you shoot 2 arrows and collect one back (or 2N with N back), so until you have one arrow left you can get two shots per arrow you lose: 38. Then the last arrow only gives you one shot, so total of 39. It's only 20 if you shoot one arrow per combat. I'm counting, that's who. :p
(It's kind of like how a spherical area of effect ends up being square on a grid, or flanking diagonally to minimize non-AoO shifting, or a defensive line with the grain on a hex map.)
Yes it drops to 38 only if you chose to shoot all 5 of your arrows as then you only get 2 back :)
I wonder if you used a recursive bow you could get an inspiration point for a terrible pun......
Quote from: jibbajibba;837913Yes it drops to 38 only if you chose to shoot all 5 of your arrows as then you only get 2 back :)
I wonder if you used a recursive bow you could get an inspiration point for a terrible pun......
Do you only get 1/4th of an arrow back when using a short bow?