3e and up casters are more akin to Dr Strange or Zatanna. They rely nigh purely on their magic and and so have an essentially unlimited basic "magic bolt" and then an array of limited or situational utility spells.

Quote from: Beagle;837507If Willy the Wizard cannot manage his resources, it is his own damn fault. You cannot truly reward smart thinking and ressourcefulness if you don't occasionally punish recklessness and bad ressource management. In the long run, having meagre ressources and the resulting increase in tension and relevance of actual tatctical decisions resulting from it are a decent upgrade for the actual game, and probably are worth it, even if that means listening to the mage player's whining while he needs to readjust his entitlement issues.

In my experience, post-3.x, it's not the Wizard player that complains, it's the rest of the Non-Casters that panic when their Magic Go Juice dispenser is out.  And so they shut the progress down, wait the prerequisite time to recharge his/her batteries and then they move on.

Quote from: Old One Eye;837536Well, I will certainly agree that if the inherent advantages of some attack forms are ignored in the game, then other attack forms will appear to be more powerful in comparison.

Unfortunately, this is a big part of D&D. Many of your typical monsters (troll, bullette, ogre) really don't have much in the way of ranged attacks, and even dragons don't have breath weapons that are more than a single turn's movement in range. The 5e iteration has really favored ranged attacks for the players, without giving much to the monsters.

The game has always favoured range and reach. Possibly because that is how it is in real world combat. But like in the real world, once the opponent is up close, if you do not have a melee weapon then you are probably in big trouble. Even the casters will be hurting if they cannot bring into play some spell that wont hit themselves as well.

I'd be hard pressed to NOT say 3.5/PF casters are stronger than 5e, by a lot. But what sort of metric besides "can non-casters do anything?" were your 3.5/PF friends concerned about, mAcular Chaotic? Many spells don't work like they used to, a lot of previous edition assumptions don't carry over.

The big balancing factor is that Fighters and the like can keep on trucking despite a tighter S/L Rest economy. Even ammo whittles down slower (1 min search to recoup 1/2 expended, round down) -- and thrown weapons aren't labeled ammo -- so wilderness treks and long dungeon delves are fine for most non-magical classes. And if you take the DMG S/L Rest and Healing alternate rule suggestions, it helps them even more.

However, if you throw away that big limiter you can easily careen on back to the 15 minute adventure day.

Quote from: Opaopajr;837675I'd be hard pressed to NOT say 3.5/PF casters are stronger than 5e, by a lot. But what sort of metric besides "can non-casters do anything?" were your 3.5/PF friends concerned about, mAcular Chaotic? Many spells don't work like they used to, a lot of previous edition assumptions don't carry over.

The big balancing factor is that Fighters and the like can keep on trucking despite a tighter S/L Rest economy. Even ammo whittles down slower (1 min search to recoup 1/2 expended, round down) -- and thrown weapons aren't labeled ammo -- so wilderness treks and long dungeon delves are fine for most non-magical classes. And if you take the DMG S/L Rest and Healing alternate rule suggestions, it helps them even more.

However, if you throw away that big limiter you can easily careen on back to the 15 minute adventure day.

Are those ammo rules realistic? I mean have you every played Nerf with you kid in the woods......

Quote from: jibbajibba;837703Are those ammo rules realistic? I mean have you every played Nerf with you kid in the woods......

Yes, I've played with NERF before. Granted arrows, bolts, and darts are generally larger, though less garishly neon, than most modern NERF ammunition. But, sure, I guess we can belabor the point about the verisimilitude of ammo rate loss amid scenery... in a world saturated in magic.
:rolleyes:

The ammo rules are there for simplicity. Besides, if you have a time crunch going on you can easily let the players decide the risk between losing 10 rounds and recouped ammunition. As an abstraction it's quite serviceable.

Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the
ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if
you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each
time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece
of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver,
case, or other container is part of the attack. At the
end of the battle, you can recover half your expended
ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 45.)

Quote from: Opaopajr;837709Yes, I've played with NERF before. Granted arrows, bolts, and darts are generally larger, though less garishly neon, than most modern NERF ammunition. But, sure, I guess we can belabor the point about the verisimilitude of ammo rate loss amid scenery... in a world saturated in magic.
:rolleyes:

The ammo rules are there for simplicity. Besides, if you have a time crunch going on you can easily let the players decide the risk between losing 10 rounds and recouped ammunition. As an abstraction it's quite serviceable.

Common tactic in NERF wars, and theres a group up north of us, is to reload with the stuff the other side is shooting at you with.

As for 5e. The retrieve half makes sense really. Alot of misses with arrows and such are going to go who knows where, or hit a wall and possibly break. In LARPs with boffer arrows a recurring complaint is that in the chaos of combat that the arrows get stepped on and broken.

So Jan with her quiver of 20 arrows has technically about 30 shots before the last arrow breaks or whatevers.

Quote from: Omega;837724Common tactic in NERF wars, and theres a group up north of us, is to reload with the stuff the other side is shooting at you with.

As for 5e. The retrieve half makes sense really. Alot of misses with arrows and such are going to go who knows where, or hit a wall and possibly break. In LARPs with boffer arrows a recurring complaint is that in the chaos of combat that the arrows get stepped on and broken.

So Jan with her quiver of 20 arrows has technically about 30 shots before the last arrow breaks or whatevers.

well technically she has 39 right as its recursive

With real arrows though if you miss its not going 10 feet its going 100m if you can comb an area of forest in a cone 100m deep in a minute you must have been a great boyscout

Quote from: Opaopajr;837709Yes, I've played with NERF before. Granted arrows, bolts, and darts are generally larger, though less garishly neon, than most modern NERF ammunition. But, sure, I guess we can belabor the point about the verisimilitude of ammo rate loss amid scenery... in a world saturated in magic.
:rolleyes:

The ammo rules are there for simplicity. Besides, if you have a time crunch going on you can easily let the players decide the risk between losing 10 rounds and recouped ammunition. As an abstraction it's quite serviceable.

Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the
ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if
you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each
time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece
of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver,
case, or other container is part of the attack. At the
end of the battle, you can recover half your expended
ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 45.)

Well to start with realism round falling, ammo, armour, how much you can carry, the relative advantage of a pick versus a mace all of these have nothing to do with the world being magic or not magic
Magic is a system imposed on the underlying reality. If that reality deviates too far from the perceptions of the players the game looses coherence.
To whit I may be a super ninja who can run vertical walls and dance on water but does that mean I can carry 10,000 shuriken hidden in my sleeves?

Ammo recovery is a convenience I agree and I have no objection but we should realise one of the reasons its there to give a boost to missile fighters who otherwise loose out to casters very quickly. That is why that ranger in the D&D cartonn has his uber magic solve any issue magical bow

In a genuine game situation a caster's cantrip is akin to a pistol with unlimited ammo. It can be used one handed whilst carrying other stuff or climbing a rope or poking through a hole in a wall or whatever.
It doesn't have the range of a bow but there is a reason that pistols are popular in urban enclosed spaces.

A wizard at 11th level can attack with their unlimited firebolt for 3d10 damage compared to the non specialist fighter who can shoot 3 arrows for 1d8 + Dex. They have the same chance to hit so the average damage is close and I can think of loads of real in game scenarios where the party are pinned down in a siege, running for their lives, or whatever  and the ammo issue will build up.
Like I noted cantrips are a real reason why 2 of my PCs went "hybrid" (Eldrich Knight and Arcane Trickster) versus straight (Thief and Champion).

You went into Arcane Trickster & Eldritch Knight for the combat cantrips? Uh... ok. That's not where I see the power, I see it in utility cantrips. But whatever floats your boat. :idunno:

Was your table using Feats? (Magic Initiate, Sharpshooter, Alert, etc.)

Quote from: Opaopajr;837753You went into Arcane Trickster & Eldritch Knight for the combat cantrips? Uh... ok. That's not where I see the power, I see it in utility cantrips. But whatever floats your boat. :idunno:

Was your table using Feats? (Magic Initiate, Sharpshooter, Alert, etc.)

The fighter selected for flexibility of the range attack the rogue used message like an always on combat mic to the whole team and mage hand like all the time.
He also really liked sleep versus the massed goblins they fought for the first few sessions so he picked it up as soon as he hit 3rd (start of session 4).

They will get feats but they are still 3rd level (yes I have reduced XP SIGNIFICANTLY....) after 6 4 hour sessions.

Quote from: jibbajibba;837726well technically she has 39 right as its recursive

With real arrows though if you miss its not going 10 feet its going 100m if you can comb an area of forest in a cone 100m deep in a minute you must have been a great boyscout

38 since you round down. But whos counting? :cool:

Bring more rangers. (So you can lose more arrows...)

With regard to finding spent ammo, I like the simplicity of finding 50% of ammo.

In reality, it is challenging to recover ammo.  Having both shot target and hunted with a bow, I can tell you it is not as easy as it sound.  When shooting target or hunting, you are shooting at a stationary target, so you know where to look.  When firing an arrow at deer, you with get only one shot most of the time.  Once, I have gotten off two because when I missed the deer ran only 10 yards then came back, apparently not seeing me.

Arrows that hit the ground can sometimes get buried up to the fletching or more.  Even with today's modern off-color nocks and fletchings, it's hard to find the ones that miss.  Now imagine combat where everyone is moving around the forest and you are shooting in different directions.  And forget about finding sling stones.  Spring would generally harder than late fall/winter.

Quote from: Opaopajr;837753You went into Arcane Trickster & Eldritch Knight for the combat cantrips? Uh... ok. That's not where I see the power, I see it in utility cantrips. But whatever floats your boat. :idunno:

Was your table using Feats? (Magic Initiate, Sharpshooter, Alert, etc.)

I really wish EK wasn't focused on being a blaster.  It's a FIGHTER! You get killy-death dealing out of the box.  Giving the EK more buff ability would have been much better.

And yes, I realize you can grab a few free spells as you level, but still, it's only a few.