Quote from: VisionStorm;1144229Pretty much. And there's lot of other ways that this and similar questions can be rephrased to arrive at the same conclusion. I have suggested similar things to what the author in the OP brings up (about reducing the attribute range by 5, since the actual value used for the vast majority of stuff in Hero is Stat/5) in another thread over at RPGPub, but the reality is that if you start hacking everything away after a certain point you're no longer dealing Hero system anymore, so you might as well make a new RPG (which I already sort of am). And there are already some RPG that do what Hero does with half or less the hassle, namely Mutants & Masterminds.

So what's even the point of the Hero System anymore? The system already ran its course, the only way to "save" it is to hack the living shit out of it till it becomes something else, which some systems have already done and you're better off making your own system than fixing Hero's, cuz ALL of these suggestions effectively constitute a different, new system anyways. Why even call it Hero?

I suppose it could be called Sidekick. There's not already a game named Sidekick, is there?

Quote from: VisionStorm;1144229...
So what's even the point of the Hero System anymore? The system already ran its course, the only way to "save" it is to hack the living shit out of it till it becomes something else, which some systems have already done and you're better off making your own system than fixing Hero's, cuz ALL of these suggestions effectively constitute a different, new system anyways. Why even call it Hero?

Branding.

OD&D was a much different beast than 4e.

Both said D&D on the cover.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1144229Pretty much. And there's lot of other ways that this and similar questions can be rephrased to arrive at the same conclusion. I have suggested similar things to what the author in the OP brings up (about reducing the attribute range by 5, since the actual value used for the vast majority of stuff in Hero is Stat/5) in another thread over at RPGPub, but the reality is that if you start hacking everything away after a certain point you're no longer dealing Hero system anymore, so you might as well make a new RPG (which I already sort of am). And there are already some RPG that do what Hero does with half or less the hassle, namely Mutants & Masterminds.

So what's even the point of the Hero System anymore? The system already ran its course, the only way to "save" it is to hack the living shit out of it till it becomes something else, which some systems have already done and you're better off making your own system than fixing Hero's, cuz ALL of these suggestions effectively constitute a different, new system anyways. Why even call it Hero?

I haven't kept up with the competitors, because I'm not all that interested in superheroes and lately I've scratched my Fantasy Hero itches elsewhere.  That huge caveat aside, I'd say the main reasons for a rework possibly making Hero worth saving:

- It plays so much easier than making characters, it isn't even funny.  Simplify the learning curve for making things, it's a fairly snazzy system in play.

- Likewise, a big drain in the system is the sheer accounting of everything even after you've surmounted the learning curve.  Simplifying the creation system takes a huge chunk out of the accounting.

- I'm fairly certain there are a lot of more recent games that have done their slants on "effects based design".  I'm not aware of any of them that are as all in as Hero is, and still relatively focused on creating a game as simulation.  For better or worse, and despite anything Ron Edwards might say, Hero is at heart a strange hybrid of genre emulation and genre simulation.  (It's the simulation elements that drive some people away, naturally, and lead to corner cases in comics it simply doesn't do well.  But that's also part of its charm, when you stay away from those corner cases.)

- Again, for better or worse, the system is biased towards the optimistic, big damn heroes, type of world.  This is also a strange mix for something with one foot in the simulation door.  If you squint or pick your limits right, you can kind of make it edge into gritty, but that's not where its heart is.  Better to go to GURPS for that.  The Hero feel is not necessarily easily replicated in other systems.

With something like a rewrite as described in this topic, I'd give it another shake, and I'm mostly out of generic systems.

Mainly, I'd be interested in a serious effort along those lines out of sheer gratitude for someone trying it.  I've always said that the problems from 3E on (with some exceptions in 6E) were that Hero went in exactly the wrong direction over and over again.  It would be nice to see someone show what might have been.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1144237I suppose it could be called Sidekick. There's not already a game named Sidekick, is there?

There is ... It was the name used for the basic version of HERO 5E.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1144260There is ... It was the name used for the basic version of HERO 5E.

Oh well.

The main problem I have with mmadsen's idea is that Dex = Dex, OCV, DCV, and SPD, which makes it the King of All Attributes. Even setting the cost at 20 points per rank (as compared to INT and SOUL at 10) doesn't fix it.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1144229Pretty much. And there's lot of other ways that this and similar questions can be rephrased to arrive at the same conclusion. I have suggested similar things to what the author in the OP brings up (about reducing the attribute range by 5, since the actual value used for the vast majority of stuff in Hero is Stat/5) in another thread over at RPGPub, but the reality is that if you start hacking everything away after a certain point you're no longer dealing Hero system anymore, so you might as well make a new RPG (which I already sort of am). And there are already some RPG that do what Hero does with half or less the hassle, namely Mutants & Masterminds.

So what's even the point of the Hero System anymore? The system already ran its course, the only way to "save" it is to hack the living shit out of it till it becomes something else, which some systems have already done and you're better off making your own system than fixing Hero's, cuz ALL of these suggestions effectively constitute a different, new system anyways. Why even call it Hero?

I think most of the simplify HERO comments miss the point of HERO. A big part of its popularity is the build system, and there is a lot of nuance to the system that is lost when you simplify the game. I fully acknowledge that this aspect of HERO also drives many potential players away.
Comparisons to M&M also only look at a small piece of the system. How well does M&M do non supers games? HERO does a lot of genres well despite its roots in Supers gaming.

One option for simplifying HERO that I strongly support is ditching the powers system from the core rules and leaving that as an advanced rule set, as was done during the 2E/3E years with Espionage, Justice Inc, Fantasy HERO and Danger International (Champions being the source for the powers builds). This option is usually dismissed by the Supers players but the vast majority of complexity complaints come from the powers build system.


A grossly simplified HERO is certainly a viable option, and I would give such a game a solid consideration but in my mind it isn't really HERO anymore. Kind of like GURPS and The Fantasy Trip. they are definitely related but TFT is not just a simplified GURPS (or perhaps better put GURPS is not just a more complex version of TFT, since TFT came first).

Quote from: Aglondir;1144264The main problem I have with mmadsen's idea is that Dex = Dex, OCV, DCV, and SPD, which makes it the King of All Attributes. Even setting the cost at 20 points per rank (as compared to INT and SOUL at 10) doesn't fix it.

Also a Dex 19 will go before a Dex 18, and a Dex 20 goes before a Dex 19 so there were players who didn't always choose the perfect break points.

Quote from: Aglondir;1144236Not often. The two main cases are:

Your BODY is like your Hit Points, but it measures your actual physical body. So 1 point matters.
Your CON determines how much (stunning) damage you can take before you are Stunned. So 1 point sometimes makes a difference.

Also a Dex 19 will go before a Dex 18, and a Dex 20 goes before a Dex 19 so there were players who didn't always choose the perfect break points. A Dex 19 is usually only 2 points more than a Dex 18 and a Dex of 20 only costs 4 points since Speed is (Dex / 10) +1, so a Speed 3 with an 18 Dex costs 2 points, but with a Dex 19 only costs 1 point (1.8 + 1, vs 1.9 +1) and a Dex of 20 provides a Speed of 3 at no added cost.

Quote from: Aglondir;1144264The main problem I have with mmadsen's idea is that Dex = Dex, OCV, DCV, and SPD, which makes it the King of All Attributes. Even setting the cost at 20 points per rank (as compared to INT and SOUL at 10) doesn't fix it.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to go in the direction of making CAP allocation choices more important than basic attribute scores, and why Advantage and Speed (in my suggested rework in the other thread) incorporate INT as well as DEX -- precisely to get away from the single uber-primary Characteristic syndrome.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1144269Comparisons to M&M also only look at a small piece of the system. How well does M&M do non supers games? HERO does a lot of genres well despite its roots in Supers gaming.

Honestly? It does it really well.

It's a d20 derivative system to the point it's 2nd Edition was directly compatible; it used the same ability scores, saving throws and skills. They renamed AC to Defense, but it's still there too. Their Power Level system corresponded with the d20 system levels.

M&M3 just stripped out some of the complexity (ex. replacing the ability scores with their modifiers; i.e. STR 4 instead of STR 18 which grants a +4 bonus) and rebalanced it's attributes so that Dex was no longer a super-stat (its traits relative to D&D being split across Agility (ranged defense, initiative), Dexterity (ranged attacks) and Fighting (melee defense)).

The only major mechanical change relative to WotC-era D&D is replacing hit points with a Toughness save, meaning any hit could potentially put you down for the count with bruises/wounds from repeated hits acting as a penalty to the save.

They had supplements for Anime (Mecha & Manga), Fantasy (Warriors & Warlocks) and any modern genre could be duplicated pretty easily just by limiting the power level and power options.

M&M has pretty much all the options that made the HERO system great (detailed character/power creation, effect-based mechanics), but with some genuine improvements (streamlined task resolution, replacing the really exploitable disads system with complications, etc.).

A big part of why the HERO System is dead these days is that they refused to innovate and improve (and a big part of that is that it's own grognards wouldn't let them) and other people just did it better in the meantime. Anyone here remember Digital Research's CP/M-80 operating system? It was one of the first OS's on the market until Microsoft did it better and eclipsed them. Or how about Xerox being the first GUI with a mouse for input... until Apple and Microsoft eclipsed them.

I hate their politics (all my M&M material came used from Half Price Books... plus they've got their own free SRD), but running M&M out of the box is just so much easier than trying to house rule HERO into something useable that I'll probably never touch HERO again in my lifetime.

Quote from: Chris24601;1144283Honestly? It does it really well.

It's a d20 derivative system to the point it's 2nd Edition was directly compatible; it used the same ability scores, saving throws and skills. They renamed AC to Defense, but it's still there too. Their Power Level system corresponded with the d20 system levels.

M&M3 just stripped out some of the complexity (ex. replacing the ability scores with their modifiers; i.e. STR 4 instead of STR 18 which grants a +4 bonus) and rebalanced it's attributes so that Dex was no longer a super-stat (its traits relative to D&D being split across Agility (ranged defense, initiative), Dexterity (ranged attacks) and Fighting (melee defense)).

The only major mechanical change relative to WotC-era D&D is replacing hit points with a Toughness save, meaning any hit could potentially put you down for the count with bruises/wounds from repeated hits acting as a penalty to the save.

They had supplements for Anime (Mecha & Manga), Fantasy (Warriors & Warlocks) and any modern genre could be duplicated pretty easily just by limiting the power level and power options.

M&M has pretty much all the options that made the HERO system great (detailed character/power creation, effect-based mechanics), but with some genuine improvements (streamlined task resolution, replacing the really exploitable disads system with complications, etc.).

A big part of why the HERO System is dead these days is that they refused to innovate and improve (and a big part of that is that it's own grognards wouldn't let them) and other people just did it better in the meantime. Anyone here remember Digital Research's CP/M-80 operating system? It was one of the first OS's on the market until Microsoft did it better and eclipsed them. Or how about Xerox being the first GUI with a mouse for input... until Apple and Microsoft eclipsed them.

I hate their politics (all my M&M material came used from Half Price Books... plus they've got their own free SRD), but running M&M out of the box is just so much easier than trying to house rule HERO into something useable that I'll probably never touch HERO again in my lifetime.

Agreed and seconded. Except for the damage save not a fan of it for M&M 3E. Between Hero Games not innovating ad the Hero Grognards stubbornly refusing to accept the reality of the situation with Hero Games and Hero System. Both the company and rpg will fade away like DOS. If given the choice I would rather run M&M 3E rather than the Hero System.

Quote from: sureshot;1144290Agreed and seconded. Except for the damage save not a fan of it for M&M 3E. Between Hero Games not innovating ad the Hero Grognards stubbornly refusing to accept the reality of the situation with Hero Games and Hero System. Both the company and rpg will fade away like DOS. If given the choice I would rather run M&M 3E rather than the Hero System.

To be fair; I don't like the damage system either. But we house-ruled it pretty easily by giving Heroic characters 50 hit points and Mooks 10; Instead of a DC, damage was 1D20+ranks (so a rank 10 blast would be 1d20+10 instead of DC 25) with the Toughness save modifiers becoming DR (so a +10 Toughness save became DR 10). At 20 HP or less you were staggered (1 action per turn) and a successful recovery restored 10 hp.

The average number of hits to drop someone remained about the same (which is why it had to be 50 hp... it was the smallest value that could deal with a d20 for a damage die... and the damage die needed to be that big due to the size of the modifiers and DR), but it reduced some swinginess.

Not to derail the thread, but many of the problems you're trying to fix are problems I don't have. My question is, do Hero System GMs actually let their players stat out their characters? I started playing Champions in the original box set and have never let a player build a character. In my most successful Fantasy Hero campaign, the player never even saw their point totals. I did this because I was told that this is the way you run a Champions game.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1144307Not to derail the thread, but many of the problems you're trying to fix are problems I don't have. My question is, do Hero System GMs actually let their players stat out their characters? I started playing Champions in the original box set and have never let a player build a character. In my most successful Fantasy Hero campaign, the player never even saw their point totals. I did this because I was told that this is the way you run a Champions game.

I ran Hero for the better part of a decade.  I'd have preferred that players make their characters with some loose guidelines, but I was the one that usually had to make them.  Along with everything else. Thus why I stopped running Hero.  

When I first started with it, there was a circle of about 10-12 players, with 4 of them willing to GM a lot and a couple more willing to GM occasionally.  5 of those people knew Hero well enough to make characters.  Spreading the work around that way, it didn't matter that about half the group wasn't that interested in the system.  Unfortunately, that ratio didn't hold long term.