Quote from: Arduin;708751There's nothing "terrible".  It's just that a HUGE % of experienced RPers dislike railroading.  Which is what HAS to happen to in a Game that has a "story".

No it doesn't.

Just as an addendum, and further evidence, many of these types openly and proudly admit they don't even game. It's just a vehicle for them to express their maladjustments and ideologies.

The general bilious vehemence of the group has also attracted other even less savoury types, like Andy Kitkowski, current operator of the story-games.com website who was heavily involved in the production of the game Maid, wherein one gets to seduce nine year old children. Or Vince Baker, last seen cheering wildly as his game Poisn'd resulted in a cabin boy being throat fucked.

Entertainingly I came across a prominent blog a while back which spoke glowingly of Baker's work - one of the commenters on the blog was a schoolteacher who swore she would teach his games to all the kids in her class.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Quote from: The Traveller;708779Just as an addendum, and further evidence, many of these types ...

Just for clarification ... which types?
I am just having trouble following the pronoun "these".

Quote from: The Traveller;708779Just as an addendum, and further evidence, many of these types openly and proudly admit they don't even game. It's just a vehicle for them to express their maladjustments and ideologies.

The general bilious vehemence of the group has also attracted other even less savoury types, like Andy Kitkowski, current operator of the story-games.com website who was heavily involved in the production of the game Maid, wherein one gets to seduce nine year old children. Or Vince Baker, last seen cheering wildly as his game Poisn'd resulted in a cabin boy being throat fucked.

Entertainingly I came across a prominent blog a while back which spoke glowingly of Baker's work - one of the commenters on the blog was a schoolteacher who swore she would teach his games to all the kids in her class.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

That is the normal trajectory when dealing with left wing psychos.

Quote from: atpollard;708782Just for clarification ... which types?
I am just having trouble following the pronoun "these".

Post #10 in this thread.

Quote from: atpollard;708782Just for clarification ... which types?
I am just having trouble following the pronoun "these".

Don't bother.   He's soapboxing.

Quote from: Sommerjon;708787Don't bother.   He's soapboxing.

Hey, the man asked why the word "story" in association with RPGs was a touchy subject, so he got the full unvarnished truth.

And that's without even going into groups like the so-called goons from somethingawful who started a thread called grognards.txt over there, wherein they quote people's posts from here. When there aren't enough quotable quotes, they send over trolls to stir things up.

Equal parts sad and pathetic maybe, but nonetheless deranged.

Quote from: Arduin;708775In a pick a path book, you can ONLY pick a pregenerated path.  It is STILL Railroading.  Just a couple more tracks added...  to a PREGENERATED story with a few outcomes.

I suppose that is because it is a book, rather than an open ended "Plot" like you would have in a TTRPG.

I mean if you cast a broad enough net, everything can be called railroading ... "Why do I have to adventure in Greyhawk? You are railroading my dwarf into your preconceived universe."

Well, yeah. If your character is in a city surrounded by plains, he ain't gonna have a 'swashbuckling on the high seas' adventure, now is he?

Most modules that I have seen have only two outcomes ... success or failure.
You rescue the princess or you don't.
You kill the giant and take his treasure or you don't.

So what do you play that is completely open ended with no restrictions on what anyone does or where they go?

For me this isn't especially linked to railroading. You can construe the game as a story building exercise and prepare an iron clad plot and railroad your players from there. You can also construe the game as a story telling exercise and build the narrative organically with GM and players being co-authors of said narrative. This is the concept of "Story Now", and a feature of post-Forge Story Games. It is pretty much the reverse of railroading on this same story-building axis of play styles. There's a world of excluded middle between these two extremes, of course, the point being, the game's still construed as a story telling exercise whether you play a Dragonlance railroad or a modern Story Game with an emergent narrative.

I don't particularly enjoy role playing games construed as story telling exercises either way, and I do not construe my own games as story building exercises at all. My games also do feature some depth, emotional involvement and plenty of role playing as well, if that is what the participants are looking for.

Quote from: The Traveller;708785Post #10 in this thread.

Thanks, that makes it perfectly clear.
There were just a lot of posts above Post #17 that it could have been responding to.

Quote from: atpollard;708792I suppose that is because it is a book, rather than an open ended "Plot" like you would have in a TTRPG.

A plot DEMANDS predetermined direction.  Which means, railroading to a large degree.  Slice it anyway you like, it tastes the same...  Renaming it doesn't change it.

Quote from: The Traveller;708789Hey, the man asked why the word "story" in association with RPGs was a touchy subject, so he got the full unvarnished truth.

And that's without even going into groups like the so-called goons from somethingawful who started a thread called grognards.txt over there, wherein they quote people's posts from here. When there aren't enough quotable quotes, they send over trolls to stir things up.

Equal parts sad and pathetic maybe, but nonetheless deranged.

Yes it is equally part sad and pathetic that you have such intimate knowledge of this and seem more than happy to oblige the 'goons' poking.

One wonder how much time you spend on that grognards.txt thread getting yourself all worked up.

Quote from: Arduin;708795A plot DEMANDS predetermined direction.  Which means, railroading to a large degree.  Slice it anyway you like, it tastes the same...  Renaming it doesn't change it.

No it doesn't.

Do your sandboxes use time?  Do things happen in your sandboxes as direct results of the actions or inaction of the PCs?  If yes to either of those questions, you got yourself plot.

Quote from: The Traveller;708765Well, the short version:

Thank you for the history lesson.
I feel enlightened.

Quote(big hint folks, if it can't be explained in a short paragraph someone's trying to bullshit you).

Ok, you haven't exactly been my favorite poster since I arrived here [even though at first glance I thought that someone called The Traveller might be a Traveller RPG fan], but credit where it is due ... that was pretty damn funny.

QuoteA shared narrative game:
"Sir Perceval the Knight leaps forward and kills the orc with his hammer, before ten more orcs burst into the room wielding giant wobbly vegetables"

It's a far more detached and less personal experience, much like wargaming. The out of character further control over the setting world is really the finishing touch. Shared narrative games in the sense that they are currently used repudiate the notion of roleplaying.

Is this the general consensus on what a "Shared Narrative" game is, or just one of many personal definitions?

'Cause if this is "Shared Narrative", then I sure as heck don't play Shared Narrative style!

Players control their characters (typically in 1st person if it matters), referee controls the setting, everyone gets to be big damn heroes – that's how I like to play.

Quote from: Sommerjon;708799Do your sandboxes use time?  Do things happen in your sandboxes as direct results of the actions or inaction of the PCs?  If yes to either of those questions, you got yourself plot.

See, that's where you are crossing the Rubicon and attempting to tell me what's actually going on at my game table.

No. I'm sorry. I'm the one who knows better what's going on in my games. Not you.

I don't have plots in the narrative sense of the term, the real, common language sense of the term applied to a medium such as novels or movies. What I do have is individuals, PCs and NPCs, locales, groups and factions with different motivations, personalities, needs and wants, agendas and things they are doing to fulfill those various agendas in the game world, and the adventure is what happens when all these elements come in contact with each other inside the game world, as the game of make-believe, let's pretend, is being played around the table.