Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 01:31:57 PM
but I'm still ok with other people having fun their way.

If they were just over there having fun their way, this wouldn't even be an issue.  No one would care.  This becomes an issue because they can't or won't do that.  They insist on insinuating themselves into everything they can, co-opting it and making it all about themselves. 

Storygamers have the most orgasmic mantras:

Storygamer: You CANNOT kill my character without my express opinion or you're violating my agency!

Us: This is Walmart, ma'am.

Why can't the fkn OSR get its fkn life together and be more like Apocalypse World?!?! Right?!?!

Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 08:19:49 PM
Storygamers have the most orgasmic mantras:

Storygamer: You CANNOT kill my character without my express permission or you're violating my agency!

Us: This is Walmart, ma'am.

Why can't the fkn OSR get its fkn life together and be more like Apocalypse World?!?! Right?!?!

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 01, 2024, 09:34:19 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2024, 01:51:03 AM
That would be nice if the storygamer fanatics would leave everyone else alone. But we are right back to the same infiltration and co-opt tactics from ten years ago. The return of their hateful little terms and the rest.

Therein lies the problem. There wouldnt be such resistance if they'd just leave everyone else the hell alone.

I am not sure what you are seeing, because none of their tactics and styles can be found in the games I play and I know there are many designers who ignore them.  It's easy to play the games we enjoy and just ignore them.

It is in how they push it outside of RPGs they 'create' and is seem more in the warped ideology they push on various forums. And the attempts to co-opt RPGs. Fake 5e is likely going to be not so subtly pushing their agenda.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 01, 2024, 12:53:28 PM
I'm late to this party.  Can anyone explain if there's something actually wrong with story games, or is just that the designers and players are a bunch of irritating poopyheads?  And what exactly is the difference between an rpg and a storygame anyway?  I thought I understood it but I've read conflicting things in various places.

It is not the games themselves that are the problem (other than some of them are not even games really)

The problem was when storygame fanatics started trying to co-opt regular RPGs and then started a hateful push to just get rid of DMs or shackle them into little more than vend bots for "teh fiction!"

They'd pop into forums with the usual "Gatcha" posts that "prove" how ha-hah! You were one of us all along! Because eventually their definition of storygame and "role playing" became literally "everything on earth!" no. I am not joking.

Years back there was a big push by the worst of them and looks like we are seeing a resurgence trying to take hold once again.

No one would be so resistant if they'd just leave everyone else the hell alone. But they never will.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on April 02, 2024, 04:59:45 PM

The short version is that storygames are bad games because they are warping their mechanics to the end of cooperativly creating a story as opposed to emulating a world. This fails since the ideal version of cooperative story creation is cooperative narrative improvisation with no mechanics at all, so any system that introduces mechanics makes the system worse at what it's trying to do.

That is exactly the problem. Storygamers want to get rid of rules by saddling games with more rules. While bitching incessantly about the evils of the hated DM.

They will bitch about how horrible D&D is because it has no rules for social interaction (a lie) and totally miss the point that you are supposed to narrate it and talk, you know. FUCKING STORYGAME STUFF YOU MORONS! ad nausium.

Its so ass backwards sometimes.

@Zeno & Omega, thanks for the explanation

Storygames actually sound fun to me.  I'm a storyteller by nature - what DM isn't? - and have enjoyed the few occasions I've done it cooperatively with others.  Giving it some structure with rules as a game sound intriguing.

Such games though are very different than RPGs and trying to combine them sounds like a disaster.  I see the main difference as the goal of play.  When I play RPGs I want to experience the first-person point of view of a fictional character in a story-like environment.  If I'm making a story, I want to be the author.  I don't see any way to do both at once.  There's a mode of play for RPGs that looks a little like storygaming, maybe enough to cause confusion, which is 3rd person rather than 1st person roleplaying.  Essentialy you say "my guy does this" rather than "I do this."  I remember hearing it called "pawn stance" somewhere.  It's definitely an RPG style IMO, but it shares the 3rd person point of view with storygames, which might lead someone who doesn't understand RPGs to think they might be the same thing.

oops

Vampire the Masquerade and all it's subgenre's are still around and thriving.

Storygaming comes back to 2nd Edition AD&D where all you had to do was pickup a copy of Dungeon magazine or a module around that time and realize you are just reading someone's novel that decided to put RPG stats in.

What's Old Is New Again.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 03, 2024, 03:54:26 AM
@Zeno & Omega, thanks for the explanation

Storygames actually sound fun to me.  I'm a storyteller by nature - what DM isn't? - and have enjoyed the few occasions I've done it cooperatively with others.  Giving it some structure with rules as a game sound intriguing.

Such games though are very different than RPGs and trying to combine them sounds like a disaster.  I see the main difference as the goal of play.  When I play RPGs I want to experience the first-person point of view of a fictional character in a story-like environment.  If I'm making a story, I want to be the author.  I don't see any way to do both at once.  There's a mode of play for RPGs that looks a little like storygaming, maybe enough to cause confusion, which is 3rd person rather than 1st person roleplaying.  Essentialy you say "my guy does this" rather than "I do this."  I remember hearing it called "pawn stance" somewhere.  It's definitely an RPG style IMO, but it shares the 3rd person point of view with storygames, which might lead someone who doesn't understand RPGs to think they might be the same thing.

Not really, on the 3rd person thing.  Anyone can play a story game in 1st or 3rd, same as an RPG.  If anything, I suspect most story gamers are going to be more likely to strictly use 1st person, though that is merely a guess.  Also, 3rd person is not "pawn" stance.  You could be in "pawn" stance and articulate that as 1st or 3rd.

Pawn stance is all about the game.  You have an avatar, and you move it around and do game things with it.  You might be more likely to use 3rd person language when describing what your pawn is about to do, but it's not guaranteed.  People don't even do that in board games with overt pawns.  You don't land on Park Place with your do token and declare the dog will buy it.  You say that "I'll buy".

In contrast, if you make a decision in character and act on it, then describe it (1st or 3rd person), you are emphatically not in pawn stance.

Where pawn stance fits in regards to a story game or RPG might be a bit trickier.  I'm sure many story gamers would say it is:

--story game--------------------------------------------trad RPG---pawn

No doubt some experienced trad GMs would reverse story game and RPG in that connection.  To me, pawn is off in left field somewhere. Pawn is about disengagement from the game, and is likely going to be driven by group dynamics as much as the particular form of the game rules.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 03, 2024, 03:54:26 AM
Storygames actually sound fun to me.  I'm a storyteller by nature - what DM isn't? - and have enjoyed the few occasions I've done it cooperatively with others.  Giving it some structure with rules as a game sound intriguing.

Such games though are very different than RPGs and trying to combine them sounds like a disaster.  I see the main difference as the goal of play.  When I play RPGs I want to experience the first-person point of view of a fictional character in a story-like environment.  If I'm making a story, I want to be the author.  I don't see any way to do both at once.

That's your taste, which is legit. In the larger gaming world, though, hybrid RPGs like White Wolf's Storyteller system, Cinematic Unisystem, and Powered-by-the-Apocalypse games have been far more popular than pure author-stance story games like Microscope or Fiasco.

I think the reason is most people don't like GMing, and they find constant creative demand draining rather than fun. But some percent of people still like to dip their toe into GM-like activity.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 03, 2024, 10:01:25 AM
Vampire the Masquerade and all it's subgenre's are still around and thriving.

Storygaming comes back to 2nd Edition AD&D where all you had to do was pickup a copy of Dungeon magazine or a module around that time and realize you are just reading someone's novel that decided to put RPG stats in.

What's Old Is New Again.

Nice try. But all the WoD RPGs are not storygames. And neither were the Dungeon modules.

Try again please.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on April 02, 2024, 02:37:39 PM

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on April 02, 2024, 01:19:38 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on April 02, 2024, 11:45:45 AM
Who's got time to watch a video with a click-bait hyperbolic title?  "Are your children playing storygames?  D&D grognards want you to know the truth about Storygamers and their corruptive agenda!"  Meh, pass.

Holy fuck though, have we come full circle?

>Do you have anything to back up that claim?

>Why yes, here's a video where a I talk about exactly that claim. *Link to video titled That Claim*

>I'm not watching that, I already know the claim in the title is false, which means it's clickbait.

The only thing that's come full circle here is your reasoning.

1) I'm not clicking on somebody's YouTube "get off my lawn" ranting and give them views.  I don't care who they are, because...
2) I can read whatever they have to say faster than they can say it.  Especially since...
3) Whatever points are made can be summed up in a few sentences. 

It's 2024.  Any evidence on line to back up anything, and I do mean anything, can be linked to.  Opinion and hearsay are fine and all, but if that's all you have to support your argument, then that's all your argument is.

(and the whole "full circle" thing was me referencing scaremongering of the 80s trying to protect people from that "Satanic Dungeons & Dragons game".  Only now we have Pundit trying to protect us from "lib Storygamer games" it would seem.)

If you are going out of your way to state not only that you haven't watched the subject of this thread but that you intentionally refuse to do so, but continue to comment otherwise, it means you are posting off-topic by your own admittance.

Do not post again on this thread.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 02, 2024, 03:02:38 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 02, 2024, 07:33:47 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 01, 2024, 12:53:28 PM
I'm late to this party.  Can anyone explain if there's something actually wrong with story games, or is just that the designers and players are a bunch of irritating poopyheads?  And what exactly is the difference between an rpg and a storygame anyway?  I thought I understood it but I've read conflicting things in various places.

If you watch the video I literally explain all of that.

That probably seemed rude on my part, sorry.  I just pretty much don't watch any videos at all - too many demands on my time.  I was hoping for a two sentence summary.

Many things take more than two sentences to explain.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2024, 08:44:49 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 01, 2024, 09:34:19 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 01, 2024, 01:51:03 AM
That would be nice if the storygamer fanatics would leave everyone else alone. But we are right back to the same infiltration and co-opt tactics from ten years ago. The return of their hateful little terms and the rest.

Therein lies the problem. There wouldnt be such resistance if they'd just leave everyone else the hell alone.

I am not sure what you are seeing, because none of their tactics and styles can be found in the games I play and I know there are many designers who ignore them.  It's easy to play the games we enjoy and just ignore them.

It is in how they push it outside of RPGs they 'create' and is seem more in the warped ideology they push on various forums. And the attempts to co-opt RPGs. Fake 5e is likely going to be not so subtly pushing their agenda.

Storygamers are also the degenerates who forced "safety tools" into the hobby. Almost everything bad in our hobby today first appeared in the hobby in the Storygames movement.