If you open it up that much poor Balbinus is going to be right out of his league.  But so be it, keep your eyes peeled folks!

Quote from: Abyssal MawHahahaa! This is great. So.. you aren't taking the bet?

As I keep saying, why would I?  Cut off my nose to spite my face? No, I enjoy roleplaying games.

I much prefer the long odds, so here's my counter-wager.  Success or failure of 4e aside, I'm laying odds that you crash and burn, like you did with 2e.  I don't know when, and I don't know exactly how, but I'm laying odds that you do.  Maybe it'll be like you described with 2e, that one day you look up from your GM's screen and realise that you don't like the people in your hobby, or that the game you're playing has morphed into something you don't enjoy anymore.  Maybe one day you'll realise that you've gotten old while the target demographic of whatever they're calling "D&D" at the time has nothing in common with you.  Maybe you'll just get bored and depressed.  But you did it once, and I'm betting you'll do it again.  And since you devoted so much energy and enthusiasm into returning to the fold, making D&D such a personal cause, the crash will be just that much harder, and you'll fall back on all that envy and resentment you described when you fell out with 2e.

What will I wager?  I don't know...maybe eat a bug?  I sure won't be dumb-assed enough to dare you to give up something you enjoy just to satisfy my bitter pride.  Nah, I'll eat a bug.  Call me up every decade or so to tell me how enthusiastically you're enjoying roleplaying, and I'll eat a bug every time.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAs I keep saying, why would I?  Cut off my nose to spite my face? No, I enjoy roleplaying games.

I much prefer the long odds, so here's my counter-wager.  Success or failure of 4e aside, I'm laying odds that you crash and burn, like you did with 2e.  I don't know when, and I don't know exactly how, but I'm laying odds that you do.  Maybe it'll be like you described with 2e, that one day you look up from your GM's screen and realise that you don't like the people in your hobby, or that the game you're playing has morphed into something you don't enjoy anymore.  Maybe one day you'll realise that you've gotten old while the target demographic of whatever they're calling "D&D" at the time has nothing in common with you.  Maybe you'll just get bored and depressed.  But you did it once, and I'm betting you'll do it again.  And since you devoted so much energy and enthusiasm into it, the crash will be just that much harder, and you'll fall back on all that envy and resentment you described when you fell out with 2e.

What will I wager?  I don't know...maybe eat a bug?  I sure won't be dumb-assed enough to dare you to give up something you enjoy just to satisfy my bitter pride.  Nah, I'll eat a bug.  Call me up every decade or so to tell me how enthusiastically you're enjoying roleplaying, and I'll eat a bug every time.

!i!

But I didn't crash and burn, Ian. I didn't. I went on to do other things (seriously, quiz me about any rpg made between 1989 and 1999. Chances are I played it). . Near the end of 2e's run, I was running it myself (Planescape). two campaigns. (Some of you guys would be shocked to hear who some of the players were, probably...)

What I described (and what you seem to have locked on to here) was that I understood the feeling of being left out of the mainstream. But during that time, I didn't like.. show up to tell the people who loved AD&D how much their game sucked or how much they sucked for loving it. Ever.

In fact, I created this for it: http://www.drosi.de/systeme/nutcracker_prince.htm

Nominally "3e", it was actually created several months before 3rd edition was released, based on speculation, house rules, and the notes from the AD&D2e campaign.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYour'e terrified. all of you.

While I acknowledge that none of us are having a Good Day today, this comment makes it appear that you, AM, are actually the one terrified otherwise you would not be so damn defensive about the subject.

Quote from: Abyssal MawHave you ever seen me argue with Koltar over whether Gurps is the best game in the world? actually..someone send Koltar over here. Ask him yourself.

I suddenly feel like Al Pacino as Michael Corleone in bad old age makeup:
 "Just when I thought I was out ..They drag me back in!!"

(I wasn't paying attention to this thread....really)



But yeah Abyssal Maw has been cool with me ...and its okay with me that he is not into my favorite game and vice versa .

 Not a big deal.

I don't really claim that GURPS is the best game (okay maybe on a caffein high I do) its just the game that I'm the most comfortable with and I'm the happiest with when I'm gamemastering.

On the other hand - I HAVE DM-ed a D&D game. I'm capable of it - its just not my preferred thing to do . And if you all remember a certain thread a month or so ago - got friends doing their best to talk me into running 3.5 D&D.

For purely mercenary reasons and partial job security - I hope that 4th edition sells really well. I LIKE having a job. {{{:- )


- Ed C.

AM, I´m not afraid.

D&D is basically irrelevant over here. I also really and only play D&D since after 3.5 came out. No childhood at stake.

I did participate in some AD&D 2e trainwrecks in the nineties, but that isn´t actually helping.

My concern for a looming Encount4rdization is truly one of an avid tactical and strategic roleplayer. The history side is interesting too, but that argument is history now.

I DID get into D&D because of it´s history. It was a huge gap in my RPG-experience.


So: I have found two things that I think D&D is terrific for:

1. It´s huge and lavish history of creativity in regards to modules and
 settings
2. It´s firm roots in a wargaming mindset

As I cannot recognise the historical D&D and as I can´t recognize any way how the Encounter based framework will go together with meaningful sandbox play, 4e is worthless to me.

And as I´m sure many players will follow 4e, I´m sad of the big America turning it´s back on those two things.

I was already pretty angry about Paizo and the recent 3.5 modules. They already did show the inaneness of the "Delve" or the "encounter-railroad-encounter-railroad" structure.

Now they are even taking away tactical freedom, and replace it with a hand full of magic cards. Without being able to build a deck, or to collect and trade cards as done in the ultimate card game: Cosmic Encounter.

Based on brand power and marketing muscle alone, 4e is going to sell relatively well to rpg's.  But is it going to sell well relative to 3rd edition?  I'm not so sure.  Right now, I expect an early surge and then a very quick drop-off and slowly diminishing sales year after year.  But this will be sitting on a base of revenue from new miniatures products, so it won't look all that bad.

What would be really cool, from my perspective, is if it were a huge success because it sucks a ton of MMORPG gamers back to the tabletop (or laptop if they actually get their shit together computer-wise) and a small percentage of those newcomers look outside WotC after a while for their tabletop RPG fun.  That would be fantastic.

What I fear is that WotC will fail miserably at doing that and will then turn back to the established fan base and aggressively retain D&D fans and try and restrict any growth in the hobby that might move people away from constantly buying their products.

I would just note, I didn't say it wouldn't be played, AM put that in his response to me, I said nothing of the sort.  Suggesting I was arguing absolutely nobody would play it is fallacy of the excluded middle, and a misquote.