TheRPGSite

It seems like after 35 years, the laws allow an author to re-snag publisher-abandoned titles, and he did.

I'm pretty thrilled / hopeful.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=154125

Quote from: Skarg;1016215It seems like after 35 years, the laws allow an author to re-snag publisher-abandoned titles, and he did.

I'm pretty thrilled / hopeful.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=154125

That would explain the report of massive takedown attacks on various fan made material or rethemes recently by SJG.

And why would you be thrilled they got ahold of it. That just means they will stifle it like their other re-acquisitions and then one shot it for a fast buck and then bury it.

We should be thrilled because it will be available again, even if only briefly.

I just hope he doesn't fuck with it.

Well, I was not thinking of any kind of crack down on fan material - that seems silly and backwards and liable to backfire.

I was thinking that at the least, the games and their components should be available in new editions, which means they can be conventionally recommended without having to send someone a PDF of something from 1980-85 or direct them to eBay or something. And new components such as counters and maps. More new players will get to try it and so on, and IME it was a great intro RPG, especially to the type of RPG I personally like. And it's a sentimental favorite. And SJ has written he'd like to make new editions with modern production values, which I don't need but would probably enjoy... as long as they don't mess it up.

Personally I do think there are some issues that could be addressed other than editing and organization, hopefully done in a good way. I know more or less what I'd do, anyway...

I didn't  read the whole forum...does Steve Jackson Games say somewhere they are going to produce and sell The Fantasy Trip as-is or a revised version?

Quote from: Dumarest;1016241I didn't  read the whole forum...does Steve Jackson Games say somewhere they are going to produce and sell The Fantasy Trip as-is or a revised version?

There's a sort of of 'watch this space' type of notice. So, it looks like it.

There's one post by Steve Jackson. He says he doesn't know what he's going to do exactly yet, except he thinks probably starting with a kickstarter Melee kit with a bunch of miniatures would be good, and that he'd like to see the old books released with current production values. And that he only got the rights to the books he wrote. So Melee, Wizard, Advanced Melee, Advanced Wizard, In The Labyrinth, Tollenkar's Lair, but I'm not sure exactly which MicroQuests - I'd guess the earlier ones though not the later ones (Master Of The Amulets, Land Beyond The Mountains, Lords Of UnderEarth...).

Well, I will surely be keeping an eye on that!

On Christmas I was thinking about playing a Sindbad game using The Fantasy Trip.

Quote from: Omega;1016219That would explain the report of massive takedown attacks on various fan made material or rethemes recently by SJG.

And why would you be thrilled they got ahold of it. That just means they will stifle it like their other re-acquisitions and then one shot it for a fast buck and then bury it.

Has this happened? Any links?

If so, that's a shame.

Interesting ... I never thought of 17 USC 203 to regain rights to long out of print stuff.  I should give Walter and Rich a call and we can snag Forest Lords of Dihad back ...

I hope this doesn't hose Dark City Games. They've been publishing their retro clone of TFT (well, that part is free, they sell modules for it). Especially since all SJ will do is make an expensive Kickstarter ($100? $200 maybe for both) with fancy counters and maps and then forget about it.


Anyway, I don't think this is necessarily for publisher abandoned stuff or books. I believe this is how Victor Willis got back the rights to the Village People songs he wrote. After 35 years, you can just get your rights back for whatever.

There are still a number of TFT sites actively posting content, some of which is in quite blatant violation of copyright law. Reports of their demise seem greatly exaggerated.

Which "requisitions" have been subject to "one shot and bury"?

Quote from: JeremyR;1016258I hope this doesn't hose Dark City Games. They've been publishing their retro clone of TFT (well, that part is free, they sell modules for it). Especially since all SJ will do is make an expensive Kickstarter ($100? $200 maybe for both) with fancy counters and maps and then forget about it.

Or they will do what they have done with Ogre. Produce a deluxe version via Kickstarter, then release a very nice updated version for the retail market, support it with at least on retail expansion, a retail card game, and retail released plastic miniatures. Not exactly forgotten. Multiple digital supporting products are available for Ogre, including new content, and there was a succesful KS for a second set of plastic miniatures, with a third set in the planning stages. As wellas the still in development "Ogre Battlefields" expansion, and the Ogre computer game on Steam for both Mac and PC.

I bought Car Wars classic at retail not long ago, and am pretty sure that game also had a succesful KS.

Munchkin of course remains SJG's bread&Butter product line.

Quote from: Omega;1016219That would explain the report of massive takedown attacks on various fan made material or rethemes recently by SJG.

And why would you be thrilled they got ahold of it. That just means they will stifle it like their other re-acquisitions and then one shot it for a fast buck and then bury it.

Legends of the Ancient Worlds is still up as well as Heroes and Other Worlds do you have any links to back this?

Oh hooray, there is no report of good news in this hobby that somebody can't shit all over.

Fucking gamers.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1016260Or they will do what they have done with Ogre. Produce a deluxe version via Kickstarter, then release a very nice updated version for the retail market, support it with at least on retail expansion, a retail card game, and retail released plastic miniatures. Not exactly forgotten. Multiple digital supporting products are available for Ogre, including new content, and there was a succesful KS for a second set of plastic miniatures, with a third set in the planning stages. As wellas the still in development "Ogre Battlefields" expansion, and the Ogre computer game on Steam for both Mac and PC.

I bought Car Wars classic at retail not long ago, and am pretty sure that game also had a succesful KS.

Munchkin of course remains SJG's bread&Butter product line.

Ogre's not an RPG.

SJ will probably just do a KS, using nostalgia to milk the thing some more, like most old guys do with their haven't-aged-well games.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/2017-12-26

That is fantastic news. A beautiful big boxed set re-issue of The Fantasy Trip would be amazing (perhaps with a touch of editing and folding in a few things from the zines of the era). If I were him I'd do it up like the Ogre boxed set. My only worry is that he'll realize it would compete with Dungeon Fantasy. Hopefully that kind of cynicism won't kill off what would otherwise be a dream product!

Brilliant news. While you can't make everyone happy, I have faith in SJG to make good decisions about the re-release. Sure, it will most likely be a nostalgia/one-and-done type of thing, but it will be great to have new copies of TFT material.

Idle curiosity, but I wonder if SJG would have needed to make contact with Howard Thompson to get the rights. Or merely make the case that it's been abandoned for 35 years and file a claim.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1016275SJ will probably just do a KS, using nostalgia to milk the thing some more, like most old guys do with their haven't-aged-well games.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/2017-12-26

As the asshole brigade weighs in!

Even if this turns out to be nothing but a one time reprint this is one of the more exciting bits of RPG news for me in years. TFT is one of my "games that got away". I was gaming when it came out, but I didn't pay it any attention until it well after it was out of print.
 

Quote from: The_Shadow;1016279Idle curiosity, but I wonder if SJG would have needed to make contact with Howard Thompson to get the rights. Or merely make the case that it's been abandoned for 35 years and file a claim.

My understanding is that was done years ago with no response. As I recall GURPS came about due to the inability for Steve Jackson to revive TFT, so he had to create an entirely new game (with much similarity).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1016226I just hope he doesn't fuck with it.

Of course he'll fuck with it. Or rather, since he's too busy sitting around drinking Coke, he'll get a particle physicist to fuck with it and make it more complicated.

I wish SJGames the best of luck with the IP. Though I'm not sure their is enough interest in the rpg. I could very well be wrong on that so who knows.

I would hope there wouldn't be any real competition issue between TFT, GURPS, or Dark City Games. Steve seems pretty clear TFT & GURPS are different sorts of games (even if I thought GURPS was the answer to having played the bejeezus out of TFT and wanting more complex rules at that point). It seems more likely to me that SJ finally having the rights to both means they can publish some clear guidelines for converting between systems, meaning all of those games could benefit from the content from the others. Certainly, the counters and maps should all be pretty interchangeable, and even without official guidelines it's not hard to convert stuff if you know the systems well.

(For OGRE there is a rather nice free PDF of the boardgame rules that is a nice condensation of the original micrograme rules from OGRE and GEV, so those of us that don't want to buy the deluxe set or miniatures or anything really can get a nice version of the rules.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1016226We should be thrilled because it will be available again, even if only briefly.

I just hope he doesn't fuck with it.

Its still being played locally. and there are plenty of fans playing it and making new stuff for it.

As for fucking with it. Hard to say really. They tinkered with Car Wars alot but Ogre not that much so who knows? Melee and Wizard had a fairly good setup so I cant see them altering it much unless its to make it more like Gurps? In which case whats the point? Could go alot of different ways really. But it will likely be another one-shot like the others. If its not Munchkin its just an afterthought.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1016254Has this happened? Any links?

If so, that's a shame.

Seems was a massive takedown of any material. But actually Im not seeing any fan material getting a C&D... this time. We'll know if they go after Kwaichia's redesign... again. Or the Melee+Heroscape conversion.

Well there are some things that seem a bit obvious to tidy up. to me, including the lack of an Index and some random organization (of what rule is where for no real reason), some rules that could be better (such as Hand To Hand combat), and a few ambiguities or interpretation shifts between Melee & Advanced Melee. There are also some common things that many players have come to use house rules for, which could be listed as options, perhaps. Personally, I think there are weak points in the experience and Talent system that can be nicely improved with making it easier to add Memory points than increase IQ, so characters can learn more talents and improve that way rather than increasing attributes which can get a bit much if/when some characters get a lot of experience. And I prefer house rules that add some sort of defense option. Some people like to loosen up the death threshold a bit. Etc. Really I would probably handle all such things by making one really clean version of the classic rules, and then having a section or supplement or free PDF with really nicely written optional rules for those things the veterans have house-ruled a lot.

After about 5-6 years of heavy play, we wanted some improvements, but having played TFT with some house-rules by players who'd stuck with TFT for many years, it seemed like a few of those made it interesting again to me, and some very well developed rules options could I think make something really great.

They could unify Melee and Wizard into one book. For some that would be an improvement.

Clean up or re-organize some of the rules?

What really does the game need that isnt cosmetic or the simple tweaks like Skarg notes above?

As for minis. That could make the game really expensive really fast if they went for the classic loadout. Seems an odd choice when SJG seems to rarely do minis anymore. But who knows.

Personally I think a really rich nice set of counters would be great and make it even more appealing and eye-catching for new players. I think the original TFT-style flat counters are genius, and would be even better if they had fallen art (even if fairly generic) and an identifier on the back. The reason is the flat counters are far handier than miniatures or SJG "Cardboard Heroes" (either the original ones or the thick ones they made for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy) because they can be easily flipped over to show fallen / crawling bodies and body piles in ways that minis and stand-up counters really do not do very well at all, and in TFT and GURPS, lots of bodies, even in piles (alive and/or dead) can be pretty common and have effects so it's really helpful to have counters that work well for that.

Nice hex maps would also be good.

For those who don't want to make their own settings, there could be settings books.

Quote from: The_Shadow;1016279Idle curiosity, but I wonder if SJG would have needed to make contact with Howard Thompson to get the rights. Or merely make the case that it's been abandoned for 35 years and file a claim.

He would have had to track Thompson down.  17 USC 203 requires written notification to the grantee or his heirs.

It also doesn't pertain to "work for hire" (so, for instance, I could reclaim my rights to my Gamelords work, but not for my MERP work), and if you've got co-authors, you need at least half of them to sign off on it as well.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1016274Ogre's not an RPG.

SJG's only RPG is GURPS, which remains in print and just hit availability on OneBookshelf.  Thankyou for adding support to my argument.  Omega was talking about SJG "re-acquisitions" and Ogre was the closest I could think of, although Steve probably took the rights with him when he left Metagaming.

So I am still not sure which games Omega is actually talking about. Non-specific internet smoke and mirrors not withstanding.

Quote from: Omega;1016294Seems was a massive takedown of any material. But actually Im not seeing any fan material getting a C&D... this time. We'll know if they go after Kwaichia's redesign... again. Or the Melee+Heroscape conversion.

Melee, Wizard, Advanced Melee, Advanced Wizard, and In the Labyrinth can all be found for download with a simple Google search for "In the Labyrinth" as of this morning.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1016226We should be thrilled because it will be available again, even if only briefly.

I just hope he doesn't fuck with it.

I think because of GURPS we will see Melee/Wizard presented more as a wargame. but Into the Labyrinth will get some love as well. Or another possibility is series of products focused on playing individual characters in certain situation like a game based on gladiators.

Never played TFT (or GURPS, for that matter), but as TFT is apparently a much simpler system than GURPS, I wonder what SJG will do to help distinguish the former from the latter.  Perhaps open it up to other publishers, via a OGL?

(I knew someone back in the 90's who had apparently modded TFT to run westerns - apparently it's fairly amicable to being tweaked in that fashion)

Or maybe any published fantasy adventures will be cross-statted between the two systems.

This is awesome.  Never had the chance to play TFT.  Looking forward to seeing what they will put out.  

For those in the know, was making adventures easier for TFT than GURPS?  Just wondering if there's any chance that they would make something like DM's Guild for it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1016270Oh hooray, there is no report of good news in this hobby that somebody can't shit all over.

Fucking gamers.

Physician, heal thyself and go read your own first post in this thread.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1016274Ogre's not an RPG.

Nor is it a pedantic twit.

This is good news, although I'm not sure exactly what he could do with it to make me want to re-purchase it.  The biggest problem with the old version is accessibility: the books are rare and expensive, and they are horribly written and presented, but a modern affordable presentation doesn't do much for me personally.  I would be more apt to take an interest if something new was added or included.

Over the last 40 years I've played more TFT than any other system, and I've prepared, play tested, used at the table, and distributed to interested folks literally hundreds of pages of new material (mostly spells from other games with good magic systems, new talents, monsters, gear and items, and some relatively subtle house rules). So, I have some strong opinions about what would be the best outcome of this. Some priorities I would set if I were in charge:

1) A clean edit of the core material in AM, AW and ITL, puling related rules into a rational order, removing redundant material like the alternative combat system in the back of AM, and condensing material like the dual experience point progression charts. This is the sort of thing that was kind of hard and expensive in the 70's but is trivial now - basically a couple of days work on a word processor.

2) Preserve all artwork, which was exceptional

3) Create a cool, beautiful and extensive set of maps and markers prepared in the original style

4) Add to the maps a set of terrain overlays that make the maps more flexible and interesting

5) Keep basic structure of the rules essentially unchanged, but expand spells by a factor of 2-3+, talents by a factor of 1.5-2 (enough to fill in some gaps and add some interesting flavor, but don't blow the system up), and monsters by a factor of ~2 (e.g., do more with the idea of demons than just having big and little ones)

6) Gently reshape a couple of talents to improve flavor and play balance. This can only be done by someone who really understands the game at the table, and who has some taste. But there are things to be done here.

7) Consider adding appendices with optional new rules that a) expand on the personality traits option in ITL, b) do something more substantial about priests and religion

8) Don't f&$% with any of the core rules in a significant way, but consider working in elements of the parry, passive defense and shield rules from GURPS, and maybe elements of the damage/injury/armor system; these were genuine improvements on the way combat works and naturally fit as subtle extensions of TFT that would not fundamentally change the original. This is another place where you need to use some judgement so you don't go bananas and just re-make GURPS.

9) Don't re-make it into another edition of GURPS

10) I mean it; we already have 5 versions of GURPS and don't need a sixth.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1016367Over the last 40 years I've played more TFT than any other system, and I've prepared, play tested, used at the table, and distributed to interested folks literally hundreds of pages of new material (mostly spells from other games with good magic systems, new talents, monsters, gear and items, and some relatively subtle house rules). So, I have some strong opinions about what would be the best outcome of this. Some priorities I would set if I were in charge:

1) A clean edit of the core material in AM, AW and ITL, puling related rules into a rational order, removing redundant material like the alternative combat system in the back of AM, and condensing material like the dual experience point progression charts. This is the sort of thing that was kind of hard and expensive in the 70's but is trivial now - basically a couple of days work on a word processor.

2) Preserve all artwork, which was exceptional

3) Create a cool, beautiful and extensive set of maps and markers prepared in the original style

4) Add to the maps a set of terrain overlays that make the maps more flexible and interesting

5) Keep basic structure of the rules essentially unchanged, but expand spells by a factor of 2-3+, talents by a factor of 1.5-2 (enough to fill in some gaps and add some interesting flavor, but don't blow the system up), and monsters by a factor of ~2 (e.g., do more with the idea of demons than just having big and little ones)

6) Gently reshape a couple of talents to improve flavor and play balance. This can only be done by someone who really understands the game at the table, and who has some taste. But there are things to be done here.

7) Consider adding appendices with optional new rules that a) expand on the personality traits option in ITL, b) do something more substantial about priests and religion

8) Don't f&$% with any of the core rules in a significant way, but consider working in elements of the parry, passive defense and shield rules from GURPS, and maybe elements of the damage/injury/armor system; these were genuine improvements on the way combat works and naturally fit as subtle extensions of TFT that would not fundamentally change the original. This is another place where you need to use some judgement so you don't go bananas and just re-make GURPS.

9) Don't re-make it into another edition of GURPS

10) I mean it; we already have 5 versions of GURPS and don't need a sixth.

Put it in a boxed set and it's sold!

Quote from: Skarg;1016308Personally I think a really rich nice set of counters would be great and make it even more appealing and eye-catching for new players. I think the original TFT-style flat counters are genius, and would be even better if they had fallen art (even if fairly generic) and an identifier on the back. The reason is the flat counters are far handier than miniatures or SJG "Cardboard Heroes" (either the original ones or the thick ones they made for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy) because they can be easily flipped over to show fallen / crawling bodies and body piles in ways that minis and stand-up counters really do not do very well at all, and in TFT and GURPS, lots of bodies, even in piles (alive and/or dead) can be pretty common and have effects so it's really helpful to have counters that work well for that.

Nice hex maps would also be good.

For those who don't want to make their own settings, there could be settings books.

So kinda like what Kwanchai did? Updated it with new art? Im not fond of his style. But he put alot of effort into covering all the counters and map. Dont know if he ever did Wizard as well. Heres an example.

(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic642875_lg.jpg)

Quote from: Dumarest;1016350Physician, heal thyself and go read your own first post in this thread.

Baloney.  I responded directly to "why should we care."  I am delighted at this news.

And I hope they don't "improve" it to the point it becomes GURPS.  I really liked TFT as a game, and I hate GURPS.

Quote from: Larsdangly;10163679) Don't re-make it into another edition of GURPS

10) I mean it; we already have 5 versions of GURPS and don't need a sixth.

This would be my greatest fear of a revision. Hopefully if it does get tinkered with it is recognized that a less complex RPG would complement rather than compete with GURPS. It creates a market for those who like the idea of GURPS but find it too much.

Seeing how TFT was released as a collection of semi independent games it would make sense to edit the rules to bring everything together as a more coherent and complete rule book.

SJ has said in an interview that he does not plan to remake TFT into something GURPSish, people who want that already have GURPS.  Beyond that he doesn't know exactly what he is going to do with it yet.

https://www.rpg.net/columns/interviews/interviews72.phtml

Our long national nightmare is over at last.

Quote from: Dumarest;1016350Physician, heal thyself and go read your own first post in this thread.

The one where he thinks it is good news and hopes it doesn't get spoiled?  That is shitting on it?

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1016444Our long national nightmare is over at last.

Truth!!!!!

Quote from: Manic Modron;1016447The one where he thinks it is good news and hopes it doesn't get spoiled?  That is shitting on it?

Yes.

No.


Might be easier to tell if the noun that goes with that pronoun was just a bit more definite.

Quote from: Bren;1016473Might be easier to tell if the noun that goes with that pronoun was just a bit more definite.

On my phone it had a quote and everything, I swear.

Steve Jackson has talked to Dark City about working together.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=2145756&postcount=59

Quote from: Omega;1016373So kinda like what Kwanchai did? Updated it with new art? Im not fond of his style. But he put alot of effort into covering all the counters and map. Dont know if he ever did Wizard as well. Heres an example.

(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic642875_lg.jpg)

Well, yes that's the right size/shape/type of counter, and the color is nice and Kwanchai did make a fresh and visually striking set, and it's ok but it's not my favorite style. The original TFT counters were more serious, e.g.:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2063[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]2064[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]2065[/ATTACH]

So I tend to prefer that style, or something like some of the Dark City Games counters:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2066[/ATTACH]

Quote from: dar;1016486Steve Jackson has talked to Dark City about working together.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=2145756&postcount=59

Translation, if you want their stuff, get it now.

I hope one of the new products an unaltered re-release of the original 70's game.

Quote from: Skarg;1016495Well, yes that's the right size/shape/type of counter, and the color is nice and Kwanchai did make a fresh and visually striking set, and it's ok but it's not my favorite style. The original TFT counters were more serious, e.g.:

So I tend to prefer that style, or something like some of the Dark City Games counters:

Same. I prefer a more realistic style. Interestingly Kwanchai also cleaned up the rulebook. I havent done a comparison yet so cant say how good or bad a job they did of it.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1016506I hope one of the new products an unaltered re-release of the original 70's game.

Theyd have to get permission from the original artists. Which might or might not be easy depending on how good or bad relations are.

I think SJG will tinker with it. Might be only a little. Might not. After the botch of how they handled the latest version of Car Wars I wouldnt hold too much hope.

Quote from: Omega;1016522Theyd have to get permission from the original artists. Which might or might not be easy depending on how good or bad relations are.

The rights to the art work might well reside with Metagaming, not the artists. So even if the artists are willing it might require new art.

Honestly, he should tinker with it just a touch. There are about a half dozen talents that should be tweaked. The balance of hits stopped vs. DX penalty for some armors should be tweaked by a point. The game is more fun with another dozen or so talents (so long as you don't use them to engage in 'grade inflation' by granting game breaking kewl powerzzz). Another 20-30 spells would be cool. Combat is more fun with some kind of parry/dodge option that doesn't prevent you from counter attacking that turn (as in GURPS or HoW). I think it's a better game with significantly expanded jobs that are related to each other in some fashion, so you they contribute to the social and campaign game. These are all little things that don't fundamentally change how the game works.

Changing something quantitative about stats, adding important new stats, doubling hit points, introducing things that make PC's substantially different from NPC's - these would all be big mistakes. One thing about TFT that is pretty special is that it started as a balanced, tactical, fast-playing board game of gladiatorial combat, and it was clearly engineered and play tested to work well as that. This means that when combat starts, you have a great experience. It does mean there are certain kinds of cinematic play you can't do (basically, TFT is no good for high-level D+D experiences where you get to be an impervious god-like creature who wanders around and murders everything). And once your character has more than 50 attribute points things start to get wobbly. But that's the way the game works and it would be dumb to break it in order to 'fix' these limitations.

Well, hopefully we're going to see a good, positive example of fans and property owners working together.  Dark City have done a lot to keep the flame alive and I think it would be a mistake for SJG to screw them and the fan base they have.  Even so, official, new TFT by Dark City might be really cool.

Quote from: David Johansen;1016586Well, hopefully we're going to see a good, positive example of fans and property owners working together.  Dark City have done a lot to keep the flame alive and I think it would be a mistake for SJG to screw them and the fan base they have.  Even so, official, new TFT by Dark City might be really cool.

Yeah, maybe just me being optimistic but my reading of that post was less how do we get them to stop doing their stuff and more how does SJG integrate them into the new TFT.

Quote from: Omega;1016519Same. I prefer a more realistic style. Interestingly Kwanchai also cleaned up the rulebook. I havent done a comparison yet so cant say how good or bad a job they did of it.

It's ok. The style is somewhat more informal, which may help some people (i.e. those who have trouble with the more formal style), although I think it may also introduce some ambiguities for people not already familiar with the rules. However they also made a few random changes which I think are trying to simplify and/or making tweaks I mostly don't think are good. Re-skimming it, I notice:

* Movement in Plate armor is reduced to 4 rather than 6, which makes it even more ridiculously confining for low-level characters than it was originally.

* They changed the DX roll to not fall when crossing bodies from a DX roll to a 1d6 fall on 6 regardless of your DX, even if you jump over using 3 MA, which is a mix of slightly more generous for most but also arbitrary and removes the effect of DX, and removes the option to use more MA to jump over without rolling to avoid falling.

* Sheltering behind a body gives a random 1d6 cover effect instead of a DX penalty to the attacker (or in addition to it - they don't mention the penalty in the rule text but do list it in the DX modifier table, which also lists the same facing adjustments in two places).

* Elves, instead of being ST 6 DX 10 with 8 extra points to allocate, are ST 4 DX 4 with 16 points to allocate, making some weird starting characters technically possible... except that may be a typo in their description, as the later table lists the traditional ST 6 DX 10 minimums.

* The DX adjustment table disagrees with the armor table about the DX adjustments for chainmail and plate armor - to be fair, there are a couple of original editions that also have a different stat for those, but in almost all cases in original TFT, it's listed as -3 for chainmail, -6 for non-tailored plate.

* They list 2d-1 for a halberd instead of the usual 2d.

Quote from: Omega;1016373So kinda like what Kwanchai did? Updated it with new art? Im not fond of his style. But he put alot of effort into covering all the counters and map. Dont know if he ever did Wizard as well. Heres an example.

(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic642875_lg.jpg)

I really like the colors and clean design of this. It "Pops".

Quote from: RunningLaser;1016345... For those in the know, was making adventures easier for TFT than GURPS?  Just wondering if there's any chance that they would make something like DM's Guild for it.

It's generally easier than GURPS because making characters (i.e. NPCs and opponent) is much simpler. Thought GURPS Dungeon Fantasy tries to cheat a bit by suggesting all goblins be the same simple stat line, while in TFT usually each opponent is more or less varied in stats and equipment (though still just something like "ST 11 DX 11 IQ 9 shortsword, dagger, 21 silver" is enough for one, and sometimes an encounter will be lazy and use a few identical opponents).

The whole TFTs/GURPS dichotomy is complicated. The short version is that DM'ing and playing TFT feels about as complex as an early edition or retroclone of D+D or Tunnels and Trolls, whereas GURPS introduces a level of complexity in everyone's stat blocks that elevates the complexity to something like 3.5 or 4E D+D or one of the BRP games.

Yeah, although if you start with Man To Man, Orcslayer and detail characters about that much, or to the level of the original pre-4e sample characters, GURPS characters can be not all that complex.

Melee/Wizard was to GURPS what Chainmail was to D&D.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1016661The short version is that DM'ing and playing TFT feels about as complex as an early edition or retroclone of D+D or Tunnels and Trolls, whereas GURPS introduces a level of complexity in everyone's stat blocks that elevates the complexity to something like 3.5 or 4E D+D or one of the BRP games.

Since when does BRP get lumped in for crunch with 3.5/4e D&D? Call of Cthulhu is probably the best known/most popular flavor and it's pretty lite in comparison.
GURPS is also pretty lightweight unless you can't resist adding ALL the options to your plate.

GURPS 4e Character Creation can be as simple as:

The Characters will be built on n points.

The attributes: Strength (ST), Dexterity (DX), Intelligence (IQ), and Health (HT) start at 10.  Strength and Health can be increased or decreased for ten character points per attribute point.  Dexterity and Health can be increased or by one attribute point for twenty character points.

Crossbow (DX), Guns (DX), Shield (DX), Knife (DX), any one type of weapon Throwing (DX), Fast Draw any one type of weapon (DX), and Swimming(HT) cost 1 point at their controlling attribute level.
Axe/Mace (DX) Broadsword (DX), Bow (DX), Climbing (DX), Two Handed Sword (DX), Two Handed Axe/Mace (DX), Stealth (DX), Spear (DX), Boxing (DX), and Wrestling (DX) cost two points at their controlling attribute level.
Karate (DX), Judo (DX), and each spell (IQ) cost four points at their controlling attribute level.

You have $1000 to spend on equipment and $4000 in personal possessions.

For many NPCs it probably doesn't need to go beyond that.

Once you're familiar with what the levels mean and have made some characters so you have a rough feel for what's reasonable, a GM can make NPCs by just assigning what makes sense and feels right. In a realistic game, 8-9 is below-average attribute, 10 is average, and most NPCs are probably at most 11-12, maybe 13, unless they're outstanding, in all four attributes, but mostly probably in the 9-11 range, with ST based largely on their size, gender, and whether they're muscular or not. Weapon skills might be about DX -1 to DX +1 for most people, or a bit more for competent people. Professional skills at IQ or DX level or a bit more if they are experienced or good, and just list the relevant skills or rule what they have when/if it comes up. Points don't matter as long as you have a good sense of proportion.

Though, it helps to pre-calc the numbers you'll need for combat, if that's liable to happen to the NPC. That became pretty automatic for me soon after I got familiar with making characters. It is still even easier to do for TFT, and would be easier for newer people to learn faster.

Encumbrance is one thing that can still make me do a bit of math, if they have enough gear to matter (especially armor).

Good for him! I look forward to seeing what he does with it.

Quote from: David Johansen;1016711GURPS 4e Character Creation can be as simple as:

The Characters will be built on n points.

The attributes: Strength (ST), Dexterity (DX), Intelligence (IQ), and Health (HT) start at 10.  Strength and Health can be increased or decreased for ten character points per attribute point.  Dexterity and Health can be increased or by one attribute point for twenty character points.

Crossbow (DX), Guns (DX), Shield (DX), Knife (DX), any one type of weapon Throwing (DX), Fast Draw any one type of weapon (DX), and Swimming(HT) cost 1 point at their controlling attribute level.
Axe/Mace (DX) Broadsword (DX), Bow (DX), Climbing (DX), Two Handed Sword (DX), Two Handed Axe/Mace (DX), Stealth (DX), Spear (DX), Boxing (DX), and Wrestling (DX) cost two points at their controlling attribute level.
Karate (DX), Judo (DX), and each spell (IQ) cost four points at their controlling attribute level.

You have $1000 to spend on equipment and $4000 in personal possessions.

For many NPCs it probably doesn't need to go beyond that.

In principle, GURPS can be as simple as 'I have a ST of 17' (or whatever), full stop. But that isn't the reality. The reality is that you have a large number of options, falling into a half dozen categories, to play off one another and typical stat blocks have at least a couple dozen separate pieces of information in them. It's a complicated game in this respect.

One important feature of TFT is that it is a 'point buy' system, but operates under different and ultimately much stricter rules. You have a pretty narrow range of possible starting stats and there is no way to trade other things for more stat points. And your talents and spells can't be exchanged for stats, or status and jobs, or gear, etc. Each category of character capability is independent, and therefore the choices you are presented are always quite constrained. GURPS opens this up by putting all possible qualities a character can have under the same point-total calculus, so everything trades off of everything. This has theoretical benefits but in my experience makes character creation too complicated of a decision tree, and allows almost infinite scope for 'gaming' the character creation process to min/max in some way you like. If you are playing the game of 'build-a-bear-PCs', it is wonderful. If you are playing a roleplaying game, it is all a bit too meta for my tastes.

Quote from: Simlasa;1016695Since when does BRP get lumped in for crunch with 3.5/4e D&D? Call of Cthulhu is probably the best known/most popular flavor and it's pretty lite in comparison.
GURPS is also pretty lightweight unless you can't resist adding ALL the options to your plate.

It's a fair comparison. A character in Runequest or any of a number of other BRP games has a couple dozen skill percentages to track separately, in some versions hit locations and hit location specific armor, etc. You need quite a few independent bits of information to define what a character is and what he or she can do. To first order, its the same amount of information you need to define a 3.5E character, with all their feats, etc.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1016572And once your character has more than 50 attribute points things start to get wobbly.

This was my biggest problem with the system: that "roll 3 against IQ" is vastly different when dealing with a 35-pt character than a 50-pt character.  I was working out how I'd do an "original stat" system, and then I had GURPS 0.5 in my hands, and that put paid to my musings.

That, and I never cared for the wizard vs hero dichotomy, and was likewise musing over something akin to GURPS Magery: a lump sum point cost at startup for the right to pick spells.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1016721It's a fair comparison. A character in Runequest or any of a number of other BRP games has a couple dozen skill percentages to track separately, in some versions hit locations and hit location specific armor, etc. You need quite a few independent bits of information to define what a character is and what he or she can do. To first order, its the same amount of information you need to define a 3.5E character, with all their feats, etc.

I found 3.5 far more complicated than AD&D or RQ, granted at the time I had 20+ years with BRP systems so ymmv. ;)

Quote from: CRKrueger;1016500Translation, if you want their stuff, get it now.

I know nothing of Steve Jackson other than what he wrote and what his company published (so, like the Wikipedia version of the man). Does he have a reputation for something something that means people that work with him... something that precludes them selling their old stuff?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1016754I know nothing of Steve Jackson other than what he wrote and what his company published (so, like the Wikipedia version of the man). Does he have a reputation for something something that means people that work with him... something that precludes them selling their old stuff?

Its been weird. Even back in the late 90s there were sporatic reports of odd behavior at SJG. Then there was the C&D sent to a fan site for a game they didnt even own. Then takedown of one set of fan material and threats. Rumours of more. And so it goes. None of which makes one bit of sense. And if I didnt know some of the people involved or was present when it happened I would have thought such things just wild tales.

But after decades of watching game companies do underhanded things at this point I just shrug and chalk it up to whatever disease eats away at some publishers.

So sadly yeah. Its best to assume the worst at this point and grab what you can while you can. If SJG and DCG work out a deal then great. I sure hope they do.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1016727This was my biggest problem with the system: that "roll 3 against IQ" is vastly different when dealing with a 35-pt character than a 50-pt character.  I was working out how I'd do an "original stat" system, and then I had GURPS 0.5 in my hands, and that put paid to my musings.

That, and I never cared for the wizard vs hero dichotomy, and was likewise musing over something akin to GURPS Magery: a lump sum point cost at startup for the right to pick spells.

One simple way to keep TFT running well for characters with higher DX is to institute a house rule where you can trade an extra action per turn (like a second attack, or a parry or something) for an extra die rolled on all actions. Thus, if I parried with my buckler, cut with my sword and gave a kick, I'd roll all on 5d, which will fail often for characters having adjusted DX under 18-20. This keeps things spicy for a good while. High ST and IQ are not really problems in this same way.

Quote from: Omega;1016757Its been weird. Even back in the late 90s there were sporadic reports of odd behavior at SJG.

Is it true SJ used to show up at cons with a phalanx of bodyguards?

I can't decide if that's pathetic, awesome, or (Given some nerds) prudent.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1016754I know nothing of Steve Jackson other than what he wrote and what his company published (so, like the Wikipedia version of the man). Does he have a reputation for something something that means people that work with him... something that precludes them selling their old stuff?

He said (paraphrasing) that in his ideal world, there would be no retro-clones of TFT.  Since he has the rights and can C&D them whenever, it's his ideal world. :D  So, if you want their version of the game, get it now.  He leaves open them being SJG "partners" for modules and supplements, so that stuff might stay, depending on whether they want to tie their supplement and adventure writing to Core Rules they no longer control.   If not, they're just gonna move to something else.  So...if you want their stuff...get it now.

Steve Jackson is, charitably, a perfectionist. Less charitably, a control freak. Still, it's kept him in business for 35 years and resulted in some great products. I too would recommend on stocking up on Dark City Games products while the going is good.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1016865Is it true SJ used to show up at cons with a phalanx of bodyguards?

Raven CS McCracken used to have strippers at his GenCon booth.

Quote from: kyle aaron;1016898raven cs mccracken used to have strippers at his gencon booth.

winner.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1016865Is it true SJ used to show up at cons with a phalanx of bodyguards?

I can't decide if that's pathetic, awesome, or (Given some nerds) prudent.

I never saw it. In fact I rarely saw SJG booths at cons. Or at least ones worth remembering for some reason. I know I got my copy of Gurps and Gurps Bunnies & Burrows from them at Gen Con. But seemed like any other gaming booth really. Fairly laid back.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1016865Is it true SJ used to show up at cons with a phalanx of bodyguards?  I can't decide if that's pathetic, awesome, or (Given some nerds) prudent.

Not at any convention at which I ever saw him, and I moderated panels at two different conventions (one being Worldcon) at which he was a panelist.  Never mind that as a landed baron and one-time society officer for the whole damn SCA, I expect he can handle himself perfectly well.

So I would say less by way of pathetic, awesome or prudent as an outright lie.

I thought SJ was just a nerd that didn't look his real age.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1016865Is it true SJ used to show up at cons with a phalanx of bodyguards?

I can't decide if that's pathetic, awesome, or (Given some nerds) prudent.

Nope.

 At every con I have seen him appear at there are no bodyguards or 'entourage' - pretty much a normal guy.
Heck, at Gen Con this past August he autographed my old copy of the original 'Car Wars' and 'Truck Stop' anf happily chatted for a little bit.
He recognized me from the SJG forums even without my Klingon gear on. (Age is catching up with e - my look is mostly Steampunk these days)

- Ed C.

Evidence. If they post none they probably have none. Just grinding some grudge.

Just asking about the bodyguard thing, no agenda. It was something I heard from a rando at a comics shop 20+ years ago.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1016865Is it true SJ used to show up at cons with a phalanx of bodyguards?

I can't decide if that's pathetic, awesome, or (Given some nerds) prudent.

He sure didn't show up at Bricks West (a LEGO convention) with body guards... And he was quite friendly...

Quote from: The_Shadow;1016896Steve Jackson is, charitably, a perfectionist. Less charitably, a control freak. Still, it's kept him in business for 35 years and resulted in some great products. I too would recommend on stocking up on Dark City Games products while the going is good.

And not a control freak, at least in regards to Evil Stevie's Pirate Game... We had some a nice chat about the game over burgers and soda at In N Out...

His attitude with GURPS might be different...

Frank

Like a number of people I know who make their living from creative work and IP he does take copyright and IP seriously. But that is to be expected. Pirate copies of his work are literally taking money out of his pocket.

There are a lot of people that take shots at SJ and KS from Palladium along the same lines and it never meshes with my experience. I've had great experiences when I've met SJ at GenCon or other conventions and I've never seen body guards.

In fact I've had better experiences with the "old guard" than the new hotshots. Last year at GenCon when my kids were at booths the old guard were much more interested in talking to my girls about the games they play, what they like about them, and asked them deeper questions about the games. I know there is the old joke about nerds talking the ears off of publishers at their booths about or PCs and campaigns but had great experiences with these old guards. When we stopped at the PEG book they were completely ignored by the help. So that kind of turned me off their products.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1017407Like a number of people I know who make their living from creative work and IP he does take copyright and IP seriously. But that is to be expected. Pirate copies of his work are literally taking money out of his pocket.

When TFT was a dedades-long abandoned game without a hint of activity from an IP holder, I think it was reasonable for the small community of fans to cook up its own OSR-style knock offs and circulate pdfs of various things. But those days are over: the author holds the IP and has a company at his disposal and plans to put out products. That's a totally different situation. Why wouldn't he protect an active business?

I must admit it is pretty cool to see Steve Jackson over at the SJG forums publicly musing over some TFT design decisions he made 40 years ago and whether he might update them.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1017029I thought SJ was just a nerd that didn't look his real age.

I heard he eats babies and conspires with storygamers to ruin Western Civ. Just reporting the rumour. :D

According to a few designers who looked it up. According to provision what Steve regained was the game rules. Not the art or expression of the rules in the original. And nothing that isnt his personal work it seems.

So a straight-up reprint isnt going to happen. But a new edition with a new format and art can.

Quote from: Omega;1017939According to a few designers who looked it up. According to provision what Steve regained was the game rules. Not the art or expression of the rules in the original. And nothing that isnt his personal work it seems.

So a straight-up reprint isnt going to happen. But a new edition with a new format and art can.

That can't be correct since you can't copyright game rules but can only copyright the expression thereof.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1017420When TFT was a dedades-long abandoned game without a hint of activity from an IP holder, I think it was reasonable for the small community of fans to cook up its own OSR-style knock offs and circulate pdfs of various things. But those days are over: the author holds the IP and has a company at his disposal and plans to put out products. That's a totally different situation. Why wouldn't he protect an active business?

There's such a thing as gratitude. If not for those fanboys the game would be utterly forgotten, and the IP would have no value - like so many other rpgs from that time and beyond. Rein them in, but perhaps find a way to include their work in your future endeavours. So I hope they'll lean more towards inclusivity than C&D letters.

Quote from: Dumarest;1017947That can't be correct since you can't copyright game rules but can only copyright the expression thereof.

SJG thinks very differently on that matter.

As for TFTs case. Beats me. Im guessing its a factor of exactly what rights passed back to the designer. Such as if he wasnt the editor then the layouts of the pages are not his work and thus dont become his now.

Quote from: Omega;1017967SJG thinks very differently on that matter.

And this is a very tricky bit of business, involving an obscure part of the federal code, dealing with a notoriously tricky field of law.  More than in most areas of the law, copyright attorneys finance Caribbean vacations and new model Miatas on the backs of laymen who think they know a lot more than they do talking out of their asses.  I'm willing to wager both that there isn't a single copyright attorney on this forum, and that SJ is paying a bloke who is to advise him.

Concerning fan sites for TFT Steve has said he is in talks with some of the more popular fan sites about how they can work together. No details beyond that at this stage.


 #213
Steve Jackson
President and EIC
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home
When the initial "official" TFT website goes live, which won't be too long, it will include links to notable fan pages. Including Ty Beard's, which was mentioned recently - I reached out to Ty, heard back from him, and got a link to his archived site.

Quote from: Dumarest;1017947That can't be correct since you can't copyright game rules but can only copyright the expression thereof.

The text word for word is the expression.

Saying distribute X points between Strength, Intelligence, and Dexterity in your own words is a game mechanic. Copy and paste the exact words out of Melee or Wizard is copyright infringement.

Further a game of man to man combat on a heg grid called "Melee" would be a trade mark, regardless of game mechanics or wording.

Of importance is that Steve Jackson only has the rights to the parts of TFT that he personally wrote. Other artists and writers would have to go through the same legal process that SJ did to recover their rights, which may or may not be worth it to them.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1018009Of importance is that Steve Jackson only has the rights to the parts of TFT that he personally wrote. Other artists and writers would have to go through the same legal process that SJ did to recover their rights, which may or may not be worth it to them.

Not necessarily.  A collaborative work requires half the authors buying in to the effort; if you and I collaborated on a work in 1982, you could recover rights to the work without my input or worrying which of us wrote which bits (indeed, I didn't see anything in the code preventing you from doing so if I opposed it).

That being said, I suppose SJG could contact old TFT artists.  Might not cost him any more to buy out their rights of recovery than it would to hire a new artist to do filler.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1017982And this is a very tricky bit of business, involving an obscure part of the federal code, dealing with a notoriously tricky field of law.  More than in most areas of the law, copyright attorneys finance Caribbean vacations and new model Miatas on the backs of laymen who think they know a lot more than they do talking out of their asses.  I'm willing to wager both that there isn't a single copyright attorney on this forum, and that SJ is paying a bloke who is to advise him.

What?  You mean random dink-yanking gamers on the Internet AREN'T the greatest source of knowledge about the intricacies of IP and copyright?

That's just crazy talk!

Quote from: Ravenswing;1018024
That being said, I suppose SJG could contact old TFT artists.  Might not cost him any more to buy out their rights of recovery than it would to hire a new artist to do filler.

Good news for TFT fans is that SJ is actually contacting old TFT artists. Presumably this is about doing new artwork for a new edition. It is quite possibly more cost effective to just commission new artwork than try to recover the rights to teh old, then negotiate a new contract for its use, etc.

From his remarks about the process it seems that there is also an element of time in the rights recovery process, time that might be better spent in other ways than waiting for the wheels of the courts to turn.

Am I reading things correctly or do the various proclamations not say anything about SJ actually getting back the title "The Fantasy Trip".

Is the new version just gonna be called Melee/Wizard?

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1018046Am I reading things correctly or do the various proclamations not say anything about SJ actually getting back the title "The Fantasy Trip".

Is the new version just gonna be called Melee/Wizard?

I've been wondering that too. Its been kinda fuzzy what exactly hes referring to at any given moment on this. He says TFT alot but seems to be referring to M/W. So who knows?

Quote from: DavetheLost;1018032Good news for TFT fans is that SJ is actually contacting old TFT artists. Presumably this is about doing new artwork for a new edition. It is quite possibly more cost effective to just commission new artwork than try to recover the rights to teh old, then negotiate a new contract for its use, etc.

From his remarks about the process it seems that there is also an element of time in the rights recovery process, time that might be better spent in other ways than waiting for the wheels of the courts to turn.

Considering the changes in printing technology, it probably makes sense to hire the artists to do something similar or "inspired by" anyway. I would guess that works out better for the artists as well.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1018046Am I reading things correctly or do the various proclamations not say anything about SJ actually getting back the title "The Fantasy Trip".

Is the new version just gonna be called Melee/Wizard?

The new version will be called GURPS Ultra LITE 5e.

Quote from: Ravenswing;1017982And this is a very tricky bit of business, involving an obscure part of the federal code, dealing with a notoriously tricky field of law.  More than in most areas of the law, copyright attorneys finance Caribbean vacations and new model Miatas on the backs of laymen who think they know a lot more than they do talking out of their asses.  I'm willing to wager both that there isn't a single copyright attorney on this forum, and that SJ is paying a bloke who is to advise him.

How much are you willing to wager? ;)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1018066The new version will be called GURPS Ultra LITE 5e.

That's actually not a Bad idea - even tho I know you were joking.

If you think about it, in many ways "Melee"/Wzard was very much like the proto version or rough draft of GURPS.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Xanther;1018085How much are you willing to wager? ;)

Plenty.  (Copyright attorney = "someone who makes his living as a dedicated copyright specialist, as opposed to someone with a JD who didn't flunk CopyrightX.")  :cool:

Quote from: Omega;1018048I've been wondering that too. Its been kinda fuzzy what exactly hes referring to at any given moment on this. He says TFT alot but seems to be referring to M/W. So who knows?

We're publishing Melee and Wizard as $15 boxes (each) as well as a big The Fantasy Trip box that includes those plus more goodies.

Steve will be running demos at Origins this week.

http://www.sjgames.com/fantasytrip/

Thanks for the update!

If you are following this thread, you will want to check in with sjgames in the coming month or two; this looks like it is shaping up to be a really cool project, so you'll want to jump on the Kickstarter when it launches!

Quote from: philreed;1043305We're publishing Melee and Wizard as $15 boxes (each) as well as a big The Fantasy Trip box that includes those plus more goodies.

Steve will be running demos at Origins this week.

http://www.sjgames.com/fantasytrip/

(https://i.imgur.com/o8YPxGg.gif)

One thing I find encouraging is that all the signs point to release of products that are really pretty similar to the originals in core mechanics. There is some forum chatter about tweaking rules for a weapon or two and perhaps closing some loopholes in rules for jobs or experience, but overall this smells like a revival rather than re-shaping into a new game. I think that is pretty important, as a lot of systems that undergo well intentioned extensive re-writes get all the life and juice sucked out of them, or produce something that is an awesome white-room game theory document but no longer fun to play. This project seems to be going down a path more like the Dragonwarriors or Classic Traveller revivals, where the end result is highly recognizable tot people  who've been playing original editions for the last 35 years.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1043342Thanks for the update!

If you are following this thread, you will want to check in with sjgames in the coming month or two; this looks like it is shaping up to be a really cool project, so you'll want to jump on the Kickstarter when it launches!

We were working on the last touches to //www.thefantasytrip.game website yesterday. One bit of info from the "About" page on the new site:

"This is going to be a Kickstarter. Our target price for "I Want It All!" is only $60. If we hit our stretch goals, you'll be getting a package that would have looked like $60 worth even in the old school days. Plus a complete PDF, which didn't even exist back then!"

Quote from: Larsdangly;1043365One thing I find encouraging is that all the signs point to release of products that are really pretty similar to the originals in core mechanics. There is some forum chatter about tweaking rules for a weapon or two and perhaps closing some loopholes in rules for jobs or experience, but overall this smells like a revival rather than re-shaping into a new game.

You've nailed it. Steve doesn't so much want a complete overhaul and new edition as he does "let's make this my way." The goal is to bring back The Fantasy Trip and not to re-imagine The Fantasy Trip. You've clearly checked out the discussions, but for anyone who has missed the conversations -- http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=100

Quote from: philreed;1043482You've nailed it. Steve doesn't so much want a complete overhaul and new edition as he does "let's make this my way." The goal is to bring back The Fantasy Trip and not to re-imagine The Fantasy Trip. You've clearly checked out the discussions, but for anyone who has missed the conversations -- http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=100

This is just fantastic. There are almost no games that serve the same niche as TFT does. Can't wait to get my hands on the whole catalogue.

Quote from: philreed;1043305We're publishing Melee and Wizard as $15 boxes (each) as well as a big The Fantasy Trip box that includes those plus more goodies.

Steve will be running demos at Origins this week.

http://www.sjgames.com/fantasytrip/

This is fan-freakin-tastic!  TFT is still one of my favorite games, and I thought it was dead in the water.  I shiny new version will work wonders for me introducing new players to an old, and to them obscure, game.  I never thought it would happen.  Where do I sign up?

Quote from: philreed;1043482You've nailed it. Steve doesn't so much want a complete overhaul and new edition as he does "let's make this my way." The goal is to bring back The Fantasy Trip and not to re-imagine The Fantasy Trip. You've clearly checked out the discussions, but for anyone who has missed the conversations -- http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=100

EXCELLENT!  It's a damn fine game... don't fuck it up!

You may quote me to SJ, by the way.

I wanna know if TFT still features "Children" as nuisance creatures on the wandering monster table for dungeon encounters :D

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1043564I wanna know if TFT still features "Children" as nuisance creatures on the wandering monster table for dungeon encounters :D

While children are listed as nuisance creatures in ITL, they aren't part of the nuisance encounter table on pg 38.

Quote from: philreed;1043305We're publishing Melee and Wizard as $15 boxes (each) as well as a big The Fantasy Trip box that includes those plus more goodies.

Steve will be running demos at Origins this week.

http://www.sjgames.com/fantasytrip/

I'm looking forward to this!

Quote from: Narmer;1043577I'm looking forward to this!

Origins went well and we shared some pics from the show: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_21_2018/The_Fantasy_Trip_At_Origins_And_Beyond

Additionally, Steve has started posting some small extra bits to the new Fantasy Trip website:

http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/june/tft-extra-1-pit-trap-plant/

http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/june/tft-extra-2-plocker/

Everything is still on track to launch on July 23.

Quote from: philreed;1045712Origins went well and we shared some pics from the show: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/June_21_2018/The_Fantasy_Trip_At_Origins_And_Beyond

Additionally, Steve has started posting some small extra bits to the new Fantasy Trip website:

http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/june/tft-extra-1-pit-trap-plant/

http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/june/tft-extra-2-plocker/

Everything is still on track to launch on July 23.

Amazing. Please keep us in the loop about the Kickstarter.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1045717Amazing. Please keep us in the loop about the Kickstarter.

Of course! Steve's also still out there giving interviews, such as this one that was filmed at Origins and posted yesterday.

http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/june/be-bold-games-origins-interview-with-steve/

Quote from: philreed;1046078Of course! Steve's also still out there giving interviews, such as this one that was filmed at Origins and posted yesterday.

http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/june/be-bold-games-origins-interview-with-steve/

Awesome to hear that Guy McLimore (TFT author from Metagaming) has been talking to Steve. We might perhaps see a GrailQuest 2 after 35 years?

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1045717Amazing. Please keep us in the loop about the Kickstarter.

Liz shared some new art from the project: https://twitter.com/LizDanforth/status/1012856487754862592

Also, Steve posted some more to the site: http://thefantasytrip.game/news/

A couple of new bits of info before the Kickstarter launches later this month.

Characters - http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/july/1-2-3-4-adventure-quick-character-creation-with-the-fantasy-trip/

Systems & Stories - http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/july/systems-stories/

Quote from: The_Shadow;1046098Awesome to hear that Guy McLimore (TFT author from Metagaming) has been talking to Steve. We might perhaps see a GrailQuest 2 after 35 years?

We have signed on Guy as the line editor.

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_07_2018/Guy_McLimore_Steps_In_As_Fantasy_Trip_Line_Editor

Quote from: philreed;1048745We have signed on Guy as the line editor.

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_07_2018/Guy_McLimore_Steps_In_As_Fantasy_Trip_Line_Editor

The band is getting back together...hope the KS smashes this one out of the park...

This is something I didn't expect to ever see happening.

It is going well. Steve Jackson has been very open and interactive on his site forum regarding the development process, including details about new material and system revisions. It is all very encouraging. I expect the end result to be terrific.

The good news is that Steve is making a great effort to preserve what made TFT such a great game to begin with and has kept its fans loyal all these years. He is taking the chance to fix a few problems, but it is not going to be a full scale rewrite resulting in a new game.

That is how it looks. Yet there will be significant new meat on those old bones, so I expect to see some genuinely new angles to TFT.

I hope for thicker chits, that would be bitchin.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1049249The good news is that Steve is making a great effort to preserve what made TFT such a great game to begin with and has kept its fans loyal all these years. He is taking the chance to fix a few problems, but it is not going to be a full scale rewrite resulting in a new game.

That's a rare thing these days, where one RPG company after another is fucking up reissues of classic games by fucking up the system or setting.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1049265I hope for thicker chits, that would be bitchin.

Diecut counters in Melee and Wizard, on 1.5mm stock. Significantly thicker than the original counters.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1049249The good news is that Steve is making a great effort to preserve what made TFT such a great game to begin with and has kept its fans loyal all these years. He is taking the chance to fix a few problems, but it is not going to be a full scale rewrite resulting in a new game.

When we discussed the project, the goal came down to: Make the box set with as few changes to the game as possible. The forums have been a powerful tool in determining what truly needed adjustment and updating.

Quote from: philreed;1049741When we discussed the project, the goal came down to: Make the box set with as few changes to the game as possible. The forums have been a powerful tool in determining what truly needed adjustment and updating.

Nice!

The Car Wars and Ogre re-issues were look-alike but not rules-alike reissues of first printings.  For example, according to the rules pamphlet in the package, Ogre features rules from 1st, 2nd and 4th edition, and the Car Wars reissue despite being in a box like the 2nd edition, includes rules and scenarios from all later editions.  So I'm wondering if the "cleaned up" The Fantasy Trip will be like that.  I mean, not that there were bunches of editions since the first one, but I think you follow my meaning.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1049896So I'm wondering if the "cleaned up" The Fantasy Trip will be like that.  I mean, not that there were bunches of editions since the first one, but I think you follow my meaning.

All of the artwork in the upcoming titles = new art.

The rules = the originals, with revisions/refinements/additions that Steve (after much playtest and discussions) feel are necessary to upgrade the game. Few titles out there get the beneiit of 30+ years of play between editons, so Steve is taking advantage of the opportunity to make adjustments based on years of actual play and his own experiences in game design.

At its core, the new game is the old game. The modifications are _not_ the purpose behind the project.

FYI, the Kickstarter for this opened today (and was almost instantly funded). It looks really great; I highly encourage you all to go drop some cash:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying?ref=user_menu

I backed it at the 'embarrassingly high' level.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1050170FYI, the Kickstarter for this opened today (and was almost instantly funded). It looks really great; I highly encourage you all to go drop some cash:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying?ref=user_menu

Wow, no kidding. Only the middle of the first day and they are already past double the funding goal with 32 days to go.

I was about to post "it's live" . . . and instantly see that you guys don't need me.

Thanks for the support!

Quote from: philreed;1050190I was about to post "it's live" . . . and instantly see that you guys don't need me.

Thanks for the support!

Aaaaand I'm going all-in...

And... backed.

Nice to see more promotional efforts happening with this compared to Dungeon Fantasy. I have a feeling TFT means the end of GURPS from any real support from SJ Games. TFT suits the modern market better I guess.

Quote from: Lurtch;1050212I have a feeling TFT means the end of GURPS from any real support from SJ Games. TFT suits the modern market better I guess.

We have no plans to end GURPS support at this time. We hired a line editor for TFT so that we could keep the two lines separate and give both the support they need.

Quote from: Lurtch;1050212Nice to see more promotional efforts happening with this compared to Dungeon Fantasy. I have a feeling TFT means the end of GURPS from any real support from SJ Games. TFT suits the modern market better I guess.

I am glad that TFT isn't being updated into some version of Gurps, but I won't try to guess what SJ Games will do. But you could certainly annoy people by always referring to Gurps as "Advanced Fantasy Trip". :D

Quote from: philreed;1050213We have no plans to end GURPS support at this time. We hired a line editor for TFT so that we could keep the two lines separate and give both the support they need.

Thank goodness, to both sentences of your post. If GURPS got the axe, I would be pretty sore over it. I'll continue to purchase from both lines (and DFRPG), I firmly believe there's room for both on the market on a personal level anyway. That they're being treated as entirely separate product lines seems totally rational to me.

But I'm also just "some guy," and could never fault SJG for doing what's best for the company and its business/bottom line.

Still, I've been spoiled by the ongoing GURPS support and it will be a pretty dark day when it goes the way of the dodo. Whether that be five or fifty  or five hundred (I'm an optimist) years from now.

Very much hoping on 3rd party licensing and future first-party products to bring some extra life back to the GURPS side of the calculation.

I'm sure the market will dictate how this all evolves; things that sell will grow and things that don't will be pruned.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1050217I'm sure the market will dictate how this all evolves; things that sell will grow and things that don't will be pruned.

As it always does, yep.

TFT could very much be the product for people to expand into GURPS.

I don't think there's a conflict between GURPS and TFT. Except perhaps the overlap of Dungeon Fantasy and TFT. Frankly the DF box already functionally covered the same ground as the new TFT box only a year ago.
Still backing the Kickstarter though.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1050217I'm sure the market will dictate how this all evolves; things that sell will grow and things that don't will be pruned.

We're keeping a close eye on the new TFT project. Future support will depend on how much demand there is for the game.

Quote from: philreed;1050242We're keeping a close eye on the new TFT project. Future support will depend on how much demand there is for the game.

Are you able to indicate what you feel a reasonable demand would be?

Quote from: ponta1010;1050244Are you able to indicate what you feel a reasonable demand would be?

It's tough to say this early on, because we need to both see how the Kickstarter performs and, next spring, see how the game does in distribution sales.

So far, everything is looking strong enough that we are making some plans for an expansion in 2019. No solid work, yet, just the broad strokes of what we would like to do next if the Kickstarter continues to do so very well.

Quote from: philreed;1050247It's tough to say this early on, because we need to both see how the Kickstarter performs and, next spring, see how the game does in distribution sales.

So far, everything is looking strong enough that we are making some plans for an expansion in 2019. No solid work, yet, just the broad strokes of what we would like to do next if the Kickstarter continues to do so very well.

That's encouraging. It looks like the KS will be at close to $100k in the first 24 hours - seems to be coming in at the higher end of expectations which is fantastic.

Has anyone actually run a TFT game as a kind of campaign? I seem to recall playing Death Test, and I have a couple of the add-ons.

Quote from: Lynn;1050272Has anyone actually run a TFT game as a kind of campaign? I seem to recall playing Death Test, and I have a couple of the add-ons.

I've run and played in many TFT campaigns. Some of the longer-running things I've used it for:

- Middle Earth
- Hyborian Age (i.e., Conan)
- A quasi-historical, late-medieval campaign set in the Scottish borderlands
- A high-fantasy Cidri setting, consisting of a city, adjacent cyclopean ruins and surrounding area. Pavis/Big Rubble and/or Lhankmar sort of give you the flavor of the thing.

TFT is great for campaigns, you just need to understand that the odds of dying in combat are higher than most other games, and adventures tend to be more like an evening of play and less like a massive dungeon crawl where you don't see daylight for weeks or months of game time.

Quote from: Lynn;1050272Has anyone actually run a TFT game as a kind of campaign? I seem to recall playing Death Test, and I have a couple of the add-ons.

I played in a campaign that ran under TFT. Interestingly it was a highly political game that had very little dueling in it, and involved a lot of pretending to be in a parliament. Still, the game's rules did the trick, especially for "vignette" sessions that stopped in and visited various characters and their schemes taking place around the campaign city. I think I wanna use it for a "Pirates of Dark Water" meets "Joust, the video game" thing, whenever I get ahold of the the completed KS. Big fan of its vibe.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1050312I've run and played in many TFT campaigns. Some of the longer-running things I've used it for:

- Middle Earth
- Hyborian Age (i.e., Conan)

TFT is great for campaigns, you just need to understand that the odds of dying in combat are higher than most other games, and adventures tend to be more like an evening of play and less like a massive dungeon crawl where you don't see daylight for weeks or months of game time.

Did you make any special changes/modifications for Middle Earth or particularly the Hyborian Age?

Quote from: Narmer;1050396Did you make any special changes/modifications for Middle Earth or particularly the Hyborian Age?

No; I didn't feel it was necessary. The number and origins of magicians in these settings differs from the assumptions of TFT's default setting ('Cidri') but if you have an IQ over 60 and haven't shot up heroin that morning, I suspect anyone can figure out how to make those sorts of changes in setting assumptions. The nature of the magic items that players stumble across is different, but I'd say that falls under the same umbrella. Otherwise, I don't think I see any reasons why you would have to house rule much for these settings. I did end up writing up lots of setting specific monsters, dungeons, etc. But that is just normal DM stuff rather than changes to the core game.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1050414No; I didn't feel it was necessary. The number and origins of magicians in these settings differs from the assumptions of TFT's default setting ('Cidri') but if you have an IQ over 60 and haven't shot up heroin that morning, I suspect anyone can figure out how to make those sorts of changes in setting assumptions. The nature of the magic items that players stumble across is different, but I'd say that falls under the same umbrella. Otherwise, I don't think I see any reasons why you would have to house rule much for these settings. I did end up writing up lots of setting specific monsters, dungeons, etc. But that is just normal DM stuff rather than changes to the core game.

Only had Melee and Wizard back in the day so I never had the full TFT experience.  So I have no real idea.  Thanks for the response.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1050414I did end up writing up lots of setting specific monsters, dungeons, etc. But that is just normal DM stuff rather than changes to the core game.

Also known as: The fun parts!

Not TFT relevant, but I wrote above also applies to using standard D+D in middle earth. I can't count how many times I've read posts by people who are outraged by the idea o defiling middle earth with a game that includes beholders, the deck of many things, etc. So don't use them; they are not the game, they are just things someone used in their campaign world! I guess we don't need to have that argument any more now that there is an in-print, popular middle earth roleplaying game based on 5E. Anyway, all of those arguments apply to using TFT in middle earth (or hyboria, or the Young Kingdoms, etc.)

If anyone here has been on the fence about this kick starter, I highly recommend you jump in: it is blowing up, they have already added tons of extra material, and they are deliberating adding a bunch more. And we're just a few days in.

I just want to be clear, the $25 PDF pledge includes PDFs of everything that makes sense to be PDF? If so that is a great deal and one I can back.

It seems so. I don't think it has copies of Dyson's maps, but that's about it.

Quote from: ffilz;1050586I just want to be clear, the $25 PDF pledge includes PDFs of everything that makes sense to be PDF? If so that is a great deal and one I can back.

From what I see, the $25 level includes everything in PDF except the big Dyson logo maps. The $60 level includes everything in print and PDF except the big Dyson maps. The $110 level includes everything in both PDF and print.

Though it looks like they've just added the possibility of a "companion" volume that'll be a print bonus to the $110 level, and available as an add-on to all the others.

I'm in for $60, and will definitely pick up that companion as an add-on. I'll be looking at other add-ons as they come along. The big Dyson maps sound like the'll be gorgeous, but I'm happy with the 1" hexes in the basic stuff, and don't see any reason to pay an extra $50 for battlemats I'll never use.

According to the latest update it seems that all the hex maps will be 1.5 inch hexes, same for the megahex geomorphs and the playmats.  Not sure how I feel about this.

As someone who will be using minis I'm all for it.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1050617Though it looks like they've just added the possibility of a "companion" volume that'll be a print bonus to the $110 level, and available as an add-on to all the others.

If that stretch goal is unlocked, the Companion PDF will be a part of the PDF package included with the $25, $30, $60, and $110 reward levels. It's just the "you get this automatically!" print book that is only added to the $110 reward. Does that make more sense?

The big hexes will be great IF the whole package of maps + markers feels like an integrated product. 1" hexes are what we are used to but that doesn't mean they are an ideal scale. Moving to 1.5 will both enable miniatures use and open up the playing surface in a way I expect will look and feel good.

Since I've been using 1" hexes / counters since 1980, I'm unlikely to really want the 1.5" maps and counters (well, I'll want the 1.5" counters... in order to shrink down their art to print on 1" counters). Larger counters might be somewhat nice to handle, but I wouldn't really want my battles to be 50% larger on my table in each direction (and so be less able to handle larger situations).

Quote from: Lynn;1050272Has anyone actually run a TFT game as a kind of campaign? I seem to recall playing Death Test, and I have a couple of the add-ons.

My first RPG campaign was TFT from 1980-1986... then I converted it to GURPS.

Every campaign I've ever run, TFT, GURPS, Traveller, homebrew, whatever, has had a foundation of the logic from TFT and it's campaign book In The Labryrinth. It does a good job of explaining how to make and run a campaign that makes sense, is self-consistent and detailed and has maps and and is about having a situation in play as opposed to the assumptions of other games.

So yes, I think it works really well... at least, for a dynamic campaign where there is a consistent mapped world to explore, and where players are responsible for not getting their PCs killed, and they may well get killed anyway. ;-)

Large hexes look great with interesting terrain and minis. It will look terrible with TFT's simple monochrome hexes and counters.

Quote from: philreed;1050689If that stretch goal is unlocked, the Companion PDF will be a part of the PDF package included with the $25, $30, $60, and $110 reward levels. It's just the "you get this automatically!" print book that is only added to the $110 reward. Does that make more sense?

And the stretch goal has been met. We're collecting the web and Space Gamer articles into a printed book.

More info here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying/posts/2250112

The stretch goals on this thing are going nuts, people; this is rapidly becoming an unbelievable deal, particularly for the 'all in' backers.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1051047The stretch goals on this thing are going nuts, people; this is rapidly becoming an unbelievable deal, particularly for the 'all in' backers.

Yeah, I upped my level to $110 because it looks like we're gonna get a metric fuckton of cool stuff.

Quote from: Brad;1051050Yeah, I upped my level to $110 because it looks like we're gonna get a metric fuckton of cool stuff.

Definitely a good deal for in print. The $25 PDF level is a good deal too because you get everything in PDF.

There's so much stuff included at both the $60 and $110 levels that I'm not sure how SJG can even make a profit after production costs.

Quote from: The_Shadow;1051083There's so much stuff included at both the $60 and $110 levels that I'm not sure how SJG can even make a profit after production costs.

I thought about that myself, but considering my copy of Triplanetary was delivered on-time with high quality components, I'm guessing SJGames has figured this Kickstarter thing out. Really hoping we get to $165k for the GM screens.

As far as I can tell, he is a good businessman and has sorted this stuff out. It is noticeable that an increasing proportion of the stretch goals are new material (spells, etc.) that will condense down to a 1/2 or 1/4 page in print - you can go through a lot of those before running into problems with cost. And they are fun, so the customers are happy to see them get 'unlocked'. The only thing I see that might get a little tricky to deliver on is the markers, which require artwork and are being re-engineered for the new edition. So, there are some openings there to make mistakes that have to be corrected, which is where costs can get away from you on a project like this.

Quote from: Brad;1051179I thought about that myself, but considering my copy of Triplanetary was delivered on-time with high quality components, I'm guessing SJGames has figured this Kickstarter thing out. Really hoping we get to $165k for the GM screens.

Thank you. I was personally a little worred about Triplanetary for a few weeks (hit an early production snag), but our factory and fulfillment partner worked together to get everything processed smoothly.

I don't think we have Kickstarter "figured out," but we are being more cautious when it comes to stretch goals and doing our best to keep everything on schedule. Delays may happen, but we think we're minimizing the potential for delays.

Quote from: The_Shadow;1051083There's so much stuff included at both the $60 and $110 levels that I'm not sure how SJG can even make a profit after production costs.

A similar question came up at rpg.net where I posted this in response:

"We've taken the lessons learned from each of the previous projects and applied them to The Fantasy Trip. And not just TFT; if you followed our recent Munchkin Unicorns project,you noticed that there came a point where we announced "there are no more stretch goals." Also, with Munchkin Unicorns, the project went to print the day _before_ the Kickstarter project closed. We completed the work and will be refining the quantity produced later this month.

With The Fantasy Trip, you may have noticed that a lot of the stretch goals are for things like web articles (many of which are posting as the stretch goals are unlocked), upgrades to components (switching from urea to acrylic dice, for example), and items which have previously existed (Death Test, Death Test 2) and have already been in the works before the project launched.

Anything can go wrong between now and when we plan to deliver the rewards, but we believe we have taken the necessary steps to minimize the risk of delays. And, if you have seen some of the discussions about possible TFT miniatures, we aren't adding on stretch goals that we're not either already working on or are sure can be completed on schedule.

I am not sure if any of this eases your concerns, but it is where we stand on the matter and the approach that we are taking. If a stretch goal suggestion comes up that is fantastic and doesn't threaten the delivery date, we will consider it. Anything that runs the risk of holding up delivery, though, is automatically filed away for a TFT expansion Kickstarter next year (if this continues to perform well on Kickstarter)."

Quote from: philreed;1051300A similar question came up at rpg.net where I posted this in response:

"We've taken the lessons learned from each of the previous projects and applied them to The Fantasy Trip. And not just TFT; if you followed our recent Munchkin Unicorns project,you noticed that there came a point where we announced "there are no more stretch goals." Also, with Munchkin Unicorns, the project went to print the day _before_ the Kickstarter project closed. We completed the work and will be refining the quantity produced later this month.

With The Fantasy Trip, you may have noticed that a lot of the stretch goals are for things like web articles (many of which are posting as the stretch goals are unlocked), upgrades to components (switching from urea to acrylic dice, for example), and items which have previously existed (Death Test, Death Test 2) and have already been in the works before the project launched.

Anything can go wrong between now and when we plan to deliver the rewards, but we believe we have taken the necessary steps to minimize the risk of delays. And, if you have seen some of the discussions about possible TFT miniatures, we aren't adding on stretch goals that we're not either already working on or are sure can be completed on schedule.

I am not sure if any of this eases your concerns, but it is where we stand on the matter and the approach that we are taking. If a stretch goal suggestion comes up that is fantastic and doesn't threaten the delivery date, we will consider it. Anything that runs the risk of holding up delivery, though, is automatically filed away for a TFT expansion Kickstarter next year (if this continues to perform well on Kickstarter)."

Well, that's fine. I was just hoping that after packing in $200+ of goods into a $110 pledge that the good folks at Steve Jackson Games will be able to afford an office pizza party and a vacation after a successful Kickstarter!

Quote from: philreed;1051300A similar question came up at rpg.net where I posted this in response:

"We've taken the lessons learned from each of the previous projects and applied them to The Fantasy Trip. And not just TFT; if you followed our recent Munchkin Unicorns project,you noticed that there came a point where we announced "there are no more stretch goals." Also, with Munchkin Unicorns, the project went to print the day _before_ the Kickstarter project closed. We completed the work and will be refining the quantity produced later this month.

With The Fantasy Trip, you may have noticed that a lot of the stretch goals are for things like web articles (many of which are posting as the stretch goals are unlocked), upgrades to components (switching from urea to acrylic dice, for example), and items which have previously existed (Death Test, Death Test 2) and have already been in the works before the project launched.

Anything can go wrong between now and when we plan to deliver the rewards, but we believe we have taken the necessary steps to minimize the risk of delays. And, if you have seen some of the discussions about possible TFT miniatures, we aren't adding on stretch goals that we're not either already working on or are sure can be completed on schedule.

I am not sure if any of this eases your concerns, but it is where we stand on the matter and the approach that we are taking. If a stretch goal suggestion comes up that is fantastic and doesn't threaten the delivery date, we will consider it. Anything that runs the risk of holding up delivery, though, is automatically filed away for a TFT expansion Kickstarter next year (if this continues to perform well on Kickstarter)."

This is all very responsible kick starting. I appreciate folks who set realistic, achievable goals.

Frank

Quote from: The_Shadow;1051321Well, that's fine. I was just hoping that after packing in $200+ of goods into a $110 pledge that the good folks at Steve Jackson Games will be able to afford an office pizza party and a vacation after a successful Kickstarter!

Disclosure: I have already booked a trip which starts the day _after_ the project closes. (Of course, part of that trip is meeting with our factory rep to discuss the final specs for the game, but it will still include a short vacation.)

Quote from: ffilz;1051330This is all very responsible kick starting. I appreciate folks who set realistic, achievable goals.

Thank you. We feel it is better to deliver as close to on time as possible, and with a profitable project, than it is to keep scrambling for promises and new stretch goals that cause delays.

Quote from: The_Shadow;1051083There's so much stuff included at both the $60 and $110 levels that I'm not sure how SJG can even make a profit after production costs.

But if you look over the list of things, there's really only a handful of -physical- items included. A lot of the stuff is "We're posting this new thing to our website!" which is great, cuz more content, right? And then the website stuff is now being added to a single Companion book.

But its really like, a couple of books, some boxes, dice, play mats, hex grids, chits, etc. And all that stuff comes down in cost due to the economies of scale. The more copies fo the game they print, the cheaper each one is.

Now, all that being said, my guess is that most of this stuff is going to be slightly more expensive when it hits retail. So those of us jumping on the KS early are getting a great deal, and SJG is getting help bringing the game out. Win/win.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1051505But if you look over the list of things, there's really only a handful of -physical- items included. A lot of the stuff is "We're posting this new thing to our website!" which is great, cuz more content, right? And then the website stuff is now being added to a single Companion book.

But its really like, a couple of books, some boxes, dice, play mats, hex grids, chits, etc. And all that stuff comes down in cost due to the economies of scale. The more copies fo the game they print, the cheaper each one is.

Now, all that being said, my guess is that most of this stuff is going to be slightly more expensive when it hits retail. So those of us jumping on the KS early are getting a great deal, and SJG is getting help bringing the game out. Win/win.

It might only be a "handful" of items, for for $110 you get two rulebooks, a companion book, play mats, two boxed sets, and a GM screen, with possibly more to come. It's actually probably worth $150 or more, but as you stated, since they can print a lot more, the cost is dramatically reduced. SJGames is winning big, and the people backing the Kickstarter are winning big. I could have just said "yes", but why not reiterate what you said?

Quote from: Herne's Son;1051505Now, all that being said, my guess is that most of this stuff is going to be slightly more expensive when it hits retail.

If I had to guess, I would place the Legacy Edition box final MSRP between $80 and $100. The box is going to be a bit of a beast.

That "I Want It All," if it went to retail, would be more like $175 to $200.

Quote from: Brad;1051532It might only be a "handful" of items, for for $110 you get two rulebooks, a companion book, play mats, two boxed sets, and a GM screen, with possibly more to come. It's actually probably worth $150 or more, but as you stated, since they can print a lot more, the cost is dramatically reduced. SJGames is winning big, and the people backing the Kickstarter are winning big. I could have just said "yes", but why not reiterate what you said?

True. I guess what I was getting at was that most of the additional content being added to the kickstarter was really that: content. Written words, and things directly useable for the game.

On the flip side, you have something like the Chaosium fiasco KS' (CoC7 and HOTOE), where they kept adding hats, shirts, mugs, tons and tons of physical items that added nothing to make the game better, and just ended up crippling the company with sourcing, shipping, etc.

It's pretty obvious that SJG has learned a -lot- from the Kickstarters they've done over the last few years, and are doing a really great job with this one. The game is clearly reaching for realistic goals, and is going to be a great product when it's released.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1051629On the flip side, you have something like the Chaosium fiasco KS' (CoC7 and HOTOE), where they kept adding hats, shirts, mugs, tons and tons of physical items that added nothing to make the game better, and just ended up crippling the company with sourcing, shipping, etc.

It's pretty obvious that SJG has learned a -lot- from the Kickstarters they've done over the last few years, and are doing a really great job with this one. The game is clearly reaching for realistic goals, and is going to be a great product when it's released.

Very true; I went for the $110 option in part from nostalgia but it's turning into a great deal.

But now that you brought it up I really, really want a Fantasy Trip mug. :(

Quote from: Herne's Son;1051629True. I guess what I was getting at was that most of the additional content being added to the kickstarter was really that: content. Written words, and things directly useable for the game.

We tried to have quite a bit of the material ready before launching the project. That has helped, since Steve has been able to post most of the unlocked game content as the stretch goals are met. You can find what has been posted so far here: http://thefantasytrip.game/tags/extras/

Quote from: rawma;1051649But now that you brought it up I really, really want a Fantasy Trip mug. :(

Nope! Not as part of this Kickstarter project. :)

Quote from: philreed;1051776Nope! Not as part of this Kickstarter project. :)

Well, I did back the kickstarter at the "I Want It All" level, so I'm just role playing appropriately by wanting awesome things that won't happen.

Quote from: rawma;1051872Well, I did back the kickstarter at the "I Want It All" level, so I'm just role playing appropriately by wanting awesome things that won't happen.

Sorry. I'm kinda suffering from Ogre PTSD which makes me defensive and protective when it comes to what we're willing to promise during a Kickstarter project.

Quote from: philreed;1051906Sorry. I'm kinda suffering from Ogre PTSD which makes me defensive and protective when it comes to what we're willing to promise during a Kickstarter project.

No need to apologize. I really, really should have put one or more smileys on that comment. :cool:

Quote from: rawma;1052021No need to apologize. I really, really should have put one or more smileys on that comment. :cool:

Deal! :) :) :) :)

I'm not sure if anyone can really understand how stressful a Kickstarter project can become. The challenge is in keeping momentum and trying to fulfill _reasonable_ requests while balancing the schedule and costs. And even as much planning as we put into The Fantasy Trip before launching the project, we're still left to manage as best we can. Fortunately, the project is going well and I'm happy that we have resisted straying outside of our plans/means.

Quote from: philreed;1050894And the stretch goal has been met. We're collecting the web and Space Gamer articles into a printed book.

More info here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying/posts/2250112

How do I add the companion to my $60 pledge level? I'm not really interested in the play mats, but would like the companion. If says you can add it for $15 but I'm not seeing an option to add options, just increasing your pledge level. Is the software smart enough to automatically add the companion if I bump my pledge to $75?

Quote from: Toadmaster;1052117How do I add the companion to my $60 pledge level? I'm not really interested in the play mats, but would like the companion. If says you can add it for $15 but I'm not seeing an option to add options, just increasing your pledge level. Is the software smart enough to automatically add the companion if I bump my pledge to $75?

You have to manually add the $15 to your pledge.  A week or two after the Kickstarter campaign ends, most Kickstarter campaign runners send out a survey to the pledgers, where you can note that you added an additional $15 for the companion.

Quote from: Apparition;1052118You have to manually add the $15 to your pledge.  A week or two after the Kickstarter campaign ends, most Kickstarter campaign runners send out a survey to the pledgers, where you can note that you added an additional $15 for the companion.

Thanks, the only kick starters I've done were the Reaper ones a couple years ago (and netted me an obscene number of minis). Now that you mention it I remember having to do the math so that my pledge would match up with my desired add ons.

Quote from: philreed;1052066Deal! :) :) :) :)

I'm not sure if anyone can really understand how stressful a Kickstarter project can become. The challenge is in keeping momentum and trying to fulfill _reasonable_ requests while balancing the schedule and costs. And even as much planning as we put into The Fantasy Trip before launching the project, we're still left to manage as best we can. Fortunately, the project is going well and I'm happy that we have resisted straying outside of our plans/means.

You folks are crushing this thing; when I can get my act together I'm going to go increase my commitment just because; any fan of the system should be grateful it is happening at all!

Quote from: Apparition;1052118You have to manually add the $15 to your pledge.  A week or two after the Kickstarter campaign ends, most Kickstarter campaign runners send out a survey to the pledgers, where you can note that you added an additional $15 for the companion.

Thanks for the assist! And yeah, the Kickstarter tools aren't really built to make this easier.

BackerKit is where project supporters will tell us how to use any added funds.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052182You folks are crushing this thing; when I can get my act together I'm going to go increase my commitment just because; any fan of the system should be grateful it is happening at all!

Thank you. The new UK and EU shipping info will, hopefully, also help bring some new backers in who were (rightfully) concerned about shipping costs. International shipping can get pricey!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying/posts/2258625

What happened with the OGRE kickstarter?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1052957What happened with the OGRE kickstarter?

I cried for six years.

Seriously, though, what happened was constant delays that made us miss delivering the box by one year. Also, we continue to work through various stretch goals (the biggest, a new edition of Car Wars, is almost the last of those promises), meaning that a part of our resources continue to go to the project, over six years after it closed.

We learned a lot from that Ogre project, and we constantly apply those lessons to new Kickstarter projects.

Our first was our largest, but it was also the most painful. Some of the decisions made resulted in increased revenue, yes, but then fulfillling those decisions negatively affected the profitability of the project.

We won't Ogredo it again.

Quote from: philreed;1052965We won't Ogredo it again.

*Groan*  :D

Quote from: Narmer;1053023*Groan*  :D

I know. At the office, we sometimes go Ogreboard with things.

OGRE/GEV is a great game and a cool setting. Looking forward to more OGRE stuff in the future.

BTW, if anyone has not played OGRE, fix that. It's an amazing achievement in wargame design and tremendous fun (and battles are 30m-1hr).

As a player, I'm very excited that the Fantasy Trip is back! I had (and still have) the original Melee and Wizard and played through Death Trap 2 many times. As a game designer, I'm even more excited they are opening the game up with a license deal.

Quote from: philreed;1052965I cried for six years.

Seriously, though, what happened was constant delays that made us miss delivering the box by one year. Also, we continue to work through various stretch goals (the biggest, a new edition of Car Wars, is almost the last of those promises), meaning that a part of our resources continue to go to the project, over six years after it closed.

We learned a lot from that Ogre project, and we constantly apply those lessons to new Kickstarter projects.

Our first was our largest, but it was also the most painful. Some of the decisions made resulted in increased revenue, yes, but then fulfillling those decisions negatively affected the profitability of the project.

We won't Ogredo it again.

I really appreciate the answer. And rather than making excuses, acknowledging the mistakes that were made, and explaining how you are learning from them, that's a good stance to take.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053556I really appreciate the answer. And rather than making excuses, acknowledging the mistakes that were made, and explaining how you are learning from them, that's a good stance to take.

Thank you. We always try to be as transparent at the office, and we want to learn from mistakes. With Ogre, there were definitely mistakes.

We sometimes take heat for actions -- especially when it comes to international shipping -- but it is better to have some grumbling online than to make a promise that will cause serious delays or threaten the success of a project.

Quote from: philreed;1053575Thank you. We always try to be as transparent at the office, and we want to learn from mistakes. With Ogre, there were definitely mistakes.

We sometimes take heat for actions -- especially when it comes to international shipping -- but it is better to have some grumbling online than to make a promise that will cause serious delays or threaten the success of a project.

Yeah, that's it, I was, you know, just testing you when I asked for a mug with the Fantasy Trip logo. Thumbs up for turning me down! :D

Quote from: rawma;1053634Yeah, that's it, I was, you know, just testing you when I asked for a mug with the Fantasy Trip logo. Thumbs up for turning me down! :D

Evil! (I like it.)

Maybe what we need is a Kickstarter project _just_ for a mug.

On a serious note, we're moving into the final days; the project closes on Friday. If anyone wants a look at how big it has grown, here' the link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying

Quote from: philreed;1053650Evil! (I like it.)

Maybe what we need is a Kickstarter project _just_ for a mug.

On a serious note, we're moving into the final days; the project closes on Friday. If anyone wants a look at how big it has grown, here' the link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying

Probably not gonna hit the $300k mark (hoping it does!), so if not are there any plans to produce the pocket box sometime in the future?

Who knows about that, but today I have eyes only for the new FB-share stretch goal: 14 hex dragon markers. The white whale of TFT combat...

Quote from: Larsdangly;1053685Who knows about that, but today I have eyes only for the new FB-share stretch goal: 14 hex dragon markers. The white whale of TFT combat...

Just shared it, up to 734...almost there.

Quote from: Brad;1053686Just shared it, up to 734...almost there.

Awesome; that bad boy is going to be a lot of fun.

Quote from: philreed;1053575Thank you. We always try to be as transparent at the office, and we want to learn from mistakes. With Ogre, there were definitely mistakes.

We sometimes take heat for actions -- especially when it comes to international shipping -- but it is better to have some grumbling online than to make a promise that will cause serious delays or threaten the success of a project.

Well, if you like feel free to send me a review copy when it publishes!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053995Well, if you like feel free to send me a review copy when it publishes!

Please email me -- phil@sjgames.com -- and I can have you added to the list.

Quote from: philreed;1054004Please email me -- phil@sjgames.com -- and I can have you added to the list.

Email sent!

I can't wait to see this myself, even as I was a latecomer to it. Hey, TSR ruled the bookstore, toy store, and uh Ard-something (Ardans?) an old department store locally and those were the only places to get games for me as a kid.

I was lucky that, all through my youth and teen years and right up until I moved to the 3rd world, I always had one or (usually) more gaming stores in my area, wherever I was living.

Thank you to everyone who supported the project! The packages are starting to reach the U.S. backers, and we've seen a lot of kind comments and fantastic pics!

https://twitter.com/TheGascon/status/1108075289031118854

https://www.facebook.com/groups/141064653224352/permalink/307633689900780/

https://twitter.com/RightHandZero/status/1108096932717699073

The Legacy Edition ships to distributors next month.

My copy is hitting Phoenix today. Excited to open it

Got mine yesterday.
Haven't had a chance to do more than open it up.
Hopefully I can mess with it this weekend.

Really looking forward to getting my 'get it all' package. TFT was my first gaming experience and I've been obsessed with it since the late 70's; it is such a pleasure to see it blossom in the hands of a company with the know how and resources to do it right.

I did get my copy. Fortunately I live in Michigan, about 40 minutes away from the warehouse I think they shipped from. The "I want it all" package is almost embarrassingly over the top. I feel like a crazy person that would have bought Invisible Sun having this thing sitting in my home. In other words, they did an ace job. As for the rules themselves, I like all of the brush up they've done. Most of that I was familiar with through following their forum talk before the KS, but a lot to still dig through.