Just wanted to share this email, I don't have many thoughts on this other than "yeah ok", but Steve Jackson sent out an email complaining about tariff's and asking people to contact congress because they are going to keep manufacturing in China, but maybe will manufacture in US when more infrastructure/capacity builds up.
QuoteAn Important Message From Our CEO
Meredith Placko
On April 5th, a 54% tariff goes into effect on a wide range of goods imported from China. For those of us who create boardgames, this is not just a policy change. It's a seismic shift.
At Steve Jackson Games, we are actively assessing what this means for our products, our pricing, and our future plans. We do know that we can't absorb this kind of cost increase without raising prices. We've done our best over the past few years to shield players and retailers from the full brunt of rising freight costs and other increases, but this new tax changes the equation entirely.
Here are the numbers: A product we might have manufactured in China for $3.00 last year could now cost $4.62 before we even ship it across the ocean. Add freight, warehousing, fulfillment, and distribution margins, and that once-$25 game quickly becomes a $40 product. That's not a luxury upcharge; it's survival math.
Some people ask, "Why not manufacture in the U.S.?" I wish we could. But the infrastructure to support full-scale boardgame production – specialty dice making, die-cutting, custom plastic and wood components – doesn't meaningfully exist here yet. I've gotten quotes. I've talked to factories. Even when the willingness is there, the equipment, labor, and timelines simply aren't.
We aren't the only company facing this challenge. The entire board game industry is having very difficult conversations right now. For some, this might mean simplifying products or delaying launches. For others, it might mean walking away from titles that are no longer economically viable. And, for what I fear will be too many, it means closing down entirely.
Tariffs, when part of a long-term strategy to bolster domestic manufacturing, can be an effective tool. But that only works when there's a plan to build up the industries needed to take over production. There is no national plan in place to support manufacturing for the types of products we make. This isn't about steel and semiconductors. This is about paper goods, chipboard, wood tokens, plastic trays, and color-matched ink. These new tariffs are imposing huge costs without providing alternatives, and it's going to cost American consumers more at every level of the supply chain.
We want to be transparent with our community. This is real: Prices are going up. We're still determining how much and where.
If you're frustrated, you're not alone. We are too. And if you want to help, write to your elected officials. You can find your representative and senators' contact information at house.gov and senate.gov. Ask them how these new policies help American creators and small businesses. Because right now, it feels like they don't.
We'll keep making games. But we'll be honest when the road gets harder, because we know you care about where your games come from – and about the people who make them.
The times are definitely changing.
We in the west have grown addicted, to a steady stream of inexpensively produced merchandise. We have financially supported the "Make it in the East, and Sell it to the West" scenario, for numerous decades now.
I'm not sure how this all ends, but I simply won't buy things that are too expensive. I'll have to prioritize, how I spend my money. It is what it is.
That simply is how it is. We as a nation have known for decades that having all of our stuff made by effectively slave labor overseas for pennies on the dollar while all of our manufacturing got priced out of the market was not a sustainable procedure. It needs to be mended, and the only way to do that mending is to break the economic incentive that perpetuates it, because there's no way people out of the goodness of their hearts will support local manufacturing in enough numbers to sustain it to profitability.
The faux outrage is obnoxious. Literally outsource EVERYTHING to garbage Chinese manufacturing so you make more money, complain when costs go up because US companies cannot actually provide a service because you and them both benefited from garbage Chinese manufacturing and thought the gravy train would never end.
"These new tariffs are imposing huge costs without providing alternatives", i.e. "Boo hoo we knew this was coming and didn't actually have a legitimate plan in place, Trump is a fascist asshole, pity us, please."
I really do not give one fuck. It's board games and crap. Figure it out.
They'll just push the costs onto the customers. The only way that we'll bring manufacturing jobs back to the USA is if the government directly funds their creation and bans international competition. Make a new department of government called the Department of Manufacturing, who will build new factories across the USA and re-employ all those former coal miners.
While we're at it, we need to annex Mexico and make all Mexicans into USA citizens so that the evil corpos won't hire them as effective slaves anymore. Send in the military to blow the cartels to kingdom come. Change drug use from a crime to an infectious disease and treat the addicts as disease victims.
We'll need to annex Canada and Greenland to get access to their rare earth minerals.
Build a bunch of nuclear plants, preferably thorium-based, so we aren't dependent on foreign oil.
Build more homes and sell them at cheap prices to solve the housing crisis...
Honestly, there are so many things we need to do to make America great again that I can't even list them all. It's definitely impossible to accomplish within Trump's presidency, so it needs to become a permanent part of party policy.
I love when businesses try to pass off the tariff percentage as the overall cost increase. Like the restaurant owner in San Francisco that claimed a 20% avocado tariff requires a 20% price increase for guacamole (from $16 to $19. For a side of guac. In SF.)
Except that food cost is a fraction of the total expenst e required to put guacamole on your plate. Labor is the majority, and of course overhead takes a big bite as well. Nor does a 20% tariff result in 20% food cost increase: food cost is mostly transportation (which, last I checked, is getting cheaper lately thanks to falling gas prices).
It's pure disingenuous grandstanding. And also hilarious to watch these people carve the noses right off their own faces (with that mixed expression of indignation and terrible pain), as they drive customers away to make a political point.
No one ever asks Why. Why is it so expensive to print paper items in the USA?
OSHA? Environmental regulations? Prop65 warning tags on everything? Insurance? Taxes? The gov graft and fraud have pushed taxes into the 50% range. If employers or workers paid less taxes, they could charge less and be competitive.
Games and toys are a luxury item, not a must have. Don't care about sjg anyways.
I will be blunt; I think the big danger to the tariffs is printer manufacturers trying to charge 3000% markups on ink. The Chinese market would not let them get away with that (they are infamous for piracy), but the American market could get sold an Orange Man Bad song and dance while HP tries to mark up ink costs into the moon.
The idea that Steve Jackson Games is having problems finding printers and plastic makers in the US is ridiculous. Do you think this is the 1980s or something? Did you spend any effort at all thinking about adapting your business model? Have you never heard of 3D printing?
In the short run, I think the RPG market will try to go more and more in the digital direction. PDFs are so good at sidestepping all the logistical hassles physical books create that it makes more sense in many instances to sell the PDF and offer a voucher for a print on demand service if you want a physical book. Prices will not change (if anything, they may go down!) The business model will be the part that adapts.
I've been formatting my work around the standards of a local publishing house for a while now because I am a big proponent of "buy local" and because, if there's ever a problem, I can talk face-to-face with someone with a 40 minute drive and point directly at problems with the product instead of needing to get on the phone with someone on the other side of the planet and hope they understand my issues.
It doesn't hurt that 6x9" also looks damn good on a tablet and as two-page spreads (like you'd see if you had a physical book open) on a laptop/desktop screen without needing to zoom in for those of us with older eyes.
Guess how many problems I have with tariffs?
It has nothing to do with the tariffs or the rising costs. He's angry and this is a good excuse to howl out loud.
I mean this guy was gonna bitch about Trump no matter what. He spends the email basically saying ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE ANYTHING IN AMERICA SO DON'T EVER BOTHER OK JUST DONT GIVE UP ITS OVER WE SUCK and like I just don't care that a bunch of random political winds hit this guy in the butt and his attitude sucks and he sucks and fuck him.
Who will pick my blueberries now?
Quote from: Venka on April 03, 2025, 05:49:48 PMHe spends the email basically saying ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE ANYTHING IN AMERICA SO DON'T EVER BOTHER OK JUST DONT GIVE UP ITS OVER WE SUCK
Yeah, that one raised my eyebrow. Maybe we can outsource Steve Jackson's job to China. It's not like he's doing anything useful.
QuoteHere are the numbers: A product we might have manufactured in China for $3.00 last year could now cost $4.62 before we even ship it across the ocean. Add freight, warehousing, fulfillment, and distribution margins, and that once-$25 game quickly becomes a $40 product.
So they charged $25 for a product that cost $3 to make last year. Now the cost could go up $1.62 but the price will go up $15 - from $25 to $40.
And yet they think they're the good guys. And claim to hate capitalism. And now want us to feel sorry for them.
I don't think so.
China is not a moral place. They pollute their own country massively just to make more money, only allow foreign investment if they also get to be involved/steal the designs, hack our computers to mine them for technical information, have zero control over IP theft, actively forced women to get abortions during 1-child policy era, and is currently sterilizing the Uhygrs of western China.
Let's pay more and get out of that place.
Quote from: Venka on April 03, 2025, 05:49:48 PMI mean this guy was gonna bitch about Trump no matter what.
I'm actually shocked the email didn't mention Trump by name. Clearly not written by Steve Jackson himself.
(https://yt3.ggpht.com/LzYNsr7VMV1LLGXVb6yIMR7QlN2g2Ga6YmxtL-qujqAwFCh17ErABkeKgnT6ZFeeGPuJEIybFJG4Kw=s800-rw-nd-v1)
Ya know, there is an opportunity here. Laser cut game tokens from MDF and plexiglass, 3d printing, etc. While some items do require big machines, not all of them.
Steve Jackson: progressive Democrat who believes in fair wages, unions, and economic patriotism
except when it comes to manufacturing the stuff he sells
then it is all about semi-slave labor in China, and no unions
Quote from: zircher on April 03, 2025, 08:17:52 PMYa know, there is an opportunity here. Laser cut game tokens from MDF and plexiglass, 3d printing, etc. While some items do require big machines, not all of them.
yes. this is why i pointed out taxes and regulations. because even if you subcontracted this out to a local mom and pop garage operation, they still have to pay very high taxes, and insurance, etc, etc.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 03, 2025, 09:34:48 PMSteve Jackson: progressive Democrat who believes in fair wages, unions, and economic patriotism
except when it comes to manufacturing the stuff he sells
then it is all about semi-slave labor in China, and no unions
...and yet years ago I remember people used to clsaim the default setting of "Infinite Worlds" (Time Travel) was too 'capitalist'/right woing biased.
Strange - huh?
- Ed C.
SJG has to explain the incoming price increases to their customers.
And that is what the mail is about.
It merely says "Sorry, we have to raise the prices due to the tariffs and don't come to us and complain because we are not responsible."
That is standard 101 PR.
And it is logical that they cannot produce in the USA since there is not enough production capacity in the foreseeable future.
Regarding slave labour in China - There is slave labour in China but it is not usual. Mostly people get paid their wages and live with that.
There are jobs in which people are being exploited of course (mostly delivery drivers).
But all in all it is not that much different from the USA or Europe.
What I think is an interesting side effect we can see here that the tariffs will probably weaken US exports since products which are partially being produced elsewhere will become more expensive when they are assembled in the USA and then being exported
Seems like a great opportunity to start company in the US specializing in making gaming products. Or you can be a whiny cunt like Steve Jackson games and put out a political ad for the Democrats and pretend you are non-partisan.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 01:50:47 AMSJG has to explain the incoming price increases to their customers.
And that is what the mail is about.
It merely says "Sorry, we have to raise the prices due to the tariffs and don't come to us and complain because we are not responsible."
That is standard 101 PR.
And it is logical that they cannot produce in the USA since there is not enough production capacity in the foreseeable future.
Regarding slave labour in China - There is slave labour in China but it is not usual. Mostly people get paid their wages and live with that.
There are jobs in which people are being exploited of course (mostly delivery drivers).
But all in all it is not that much different from the USA or Europe.
What I think is an interesting side effect we can see here that the tariffs will probably weaken US exports since products which are partially being produced elsewhere will become more expensive when they are assembled in the USA and then being exported
No on tariffs making manufacturing weaker. The US is working will be having zero tariffs with Argentina. Vietnam unfortunately did not go the Zero tariff approach it made some concessions on LNG and automobiles, but it was low so they are at 46% now. Hopefully a zero tariff negotiation can be put in place between the US and Vietnam.
SJG is supposed to be creative and brilliant with the game business, but he isn't showing it.
For decades the aerospace industry has used mom & pop garage type CNC outfits to manufacture their small parts under a subcontractor agreement. Considering the wild proliferation of 3D printers, there is no reason why SJG can't go this same route with boardgame pieces.
Except he wouldn't be able to whine about Trump if he did.
First of all being creative and brilliant with designing games doesn't mean that they have a clue about brilliant and creative means of production.
Regarding the use of 3D printers: These cost money and now they become even more expensive due to tariffs. TTRPG companies usually don't have that much money and banks are also not that open to handing out loans at a reasonable rate to such companies.
Additionally you need paper printers for TTRPGs which are also becoming more and more expensive due to tariffs. We are not talking here about your usual HP printer on your desk.
And all this has to be done at a reasonable price.
Then you need paper and you need to ask yourself wether it is being imported or not. Additionally you have to store the raw material for the printing which means additional costs.
Furthermore you need people to operate the printers. So you need professionals.
But currently you have a labour shortage (so hard that Florida is making it's child labour laws more lax) in the USA and finding expert labour for an industry which has been outsourced is difficult and expensive.
So in each case you have to pay more - the questions are
a) How much more (will it still be cheaper to produce in China than in the USA)?
b) How good will the quality be (proven quality by made in China vs unknown quality by made in the USA).
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 04:51:22 AMFirst of all being creative and brilliant with designing games doesn't mean that they have a clue about brilliant and creative means of production.
Regarding the use of 3D printers: These cost money and now they become even more expensive due to tariffs. TTRPG companies usually don't have that much money and banks are also not that open to handing out loans at a reasonable rate to such companies.
Additionally you need paper printers for TTRPGs which are also becoming more and more expensive due to tariffs. We are not talking here about your usual HP printer on your desk.
And all this has to be done at a reasonable price.
Then you need paper and you need to ask yourself wether it is being imported or not. Additionally you have to store the raw material for the printing which means additional costs.
Furthermore you need people to operate the printers. So you need professionals.
But currently you have a labour shortage (so hard that Florida is making it's child labour laws more lax) in the USA and finding expert labour for an industry which has been outsourced is difficult and expensive.
So in each case you have to pay more - the questions are
a) How much more (will it still be cheaper to produce in China than in the USA)?
b) How good will the quality be (proven quality by made in China vs unknown quality by made in the USA).
I think that you may have missed my use of the word, "subcontractor". You don't buy the printers, you get people who already have them to bid on the part manufacturing jobs. If it's mutually beneficial, you've got a business.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 06:34:11 AMI think that you may have missed my use of the word, "subcontractor". You don't buy the printers, you get people who already have them to bid on the part manufacturing jobs. If it's mutually beneficial, you've got a business.
I agree with that. But there are not that many subcontractors in that kind of business in the USA since that is kind of work which had so low margins that it was cheaper to outsource it to countries like China.
So the few available subcontractors left in the USA will have limited capacity and sell their services to the highest bidder (which won't be companies like SJG).
So of course new companies can be founded in that businesses but they have to buy machines which will be more expensive due to tariffs. And for these you need loans which might be difficult to get in that kind of business.
And then you still have the labour shortage in the USA to deal with.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 03:53:17 AMSJG is supposed to be creative and brilliant with the game business, but he isn't showing it.
For decades the aerospace industry has used mom & pop garage type CNC outfits to manufacture their small parts under a subcontractor agreement. Considering the wild proliferation of 3D printers, there is no reason why SJG can't go this same route with boardgame pieces.
Except he wouldn't be able to whine about Trump if he did.
This was the whole point.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 04:51:22 AMFirst of all being creative and brilliant with designing games doesn't mean that they have a clue about brilliant and creative means of production.
Regarding the use of 3D printers: These cost money and now they become even more expensive due to tariffs. TTRPG companies usually don't have that much money and banks are also not that open to handing out loans at a reasonable rate to such companies.
Additionally you need paper printers for TTRPGs which are also becoming more and more expensive due to tariffs. We are not talking here about your usual HP printer on your desk.
And all this has to be done at a reasonable price.
Then you need paper and you need to ask yourself wether it is being imported or not. Additionally you have to store the raw material for the printing which means additional costs.
Furthermore you need people to operate the printers. So you need professionals.
But currently you have a labour shortage (so hard that Florida is making it's child labour laws more lax) in the USA and finding expert labour for an industry which has been outsourced is difficult and expensive.
So in each case you have to pay more - the questions are
a) How much more (will it still be cheaper to produce in China than in the USA)?
b) How good will the quality be (proven quality by made in China vs unknown quality by made in the USA).
A few significant disagreements:
1): You don't need the best 3D printers in the world to make tabletop game components. Most 3D printers in this category go for less than $500. You could mark up most of them over 200% and the cost would still be at or below $1000 per unit. Obviously the plastic filaments or resin also cost, but my point is that this is not a particularly unapproachable expense for tabletop game companies.
2): The shortage for printing services is actually in bookbinding equipment, not printers. Most office supply stores maintain printers which are as good or better than what is needed to print books out, but they tend to not have bookbinding supplies for things other than spiral bound books. The industry will need to go through teething, but that shouldn't surprise, anyone.
3) International shipping from Southeast Asia means that quality will almost certainly go up because locally produced books can be produced at the same humidity they are intended to be kept in. SE Asia printing has a lot of problems caused by the heat and humidity. When you take paper products out of the heat and humidity they were created in, they tend to warp as they dry out or absorb moisture.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 06:55:57 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 06:34:11 AMI think that you may have missed my use of the word, "subcontractor". You don't buy the printers, you get people who already have them to bid on the part manufacturing jobs. If it's mutually beneficial, you've got a business.
I agree with that. But there are not that many subcontractors in that kind of business in the USA since that is kind of work which had so low margins that it was cheaper to outsource it to countries like China.
So the few available subcontractors left in the USA will have limited capacity and sell their services to the highest bidder (which won't be companies like SJG).
So of course new companies can be founded in that businesses but they have to buy machines which will be more expensive due to tariffs. And for these you need loans which might be difficult to get in that kind of business.
And then you still have the labour shortage in the USA to deal with.
I don't think that you realize how many 3D printers and printing businesses are already out there.
What labour shortage are you talking about?
Quote from: Fheredin on April 04, 2025, 07:18:37 AMA few significant disagreements:
1): You don't need the best 3D printers in the world to make tabletop game components. Most 3D printers in this category go for less than $500. You could mark up most of them over 200% and the cost would still be at or below $1000 per unit. Obviously the plastic filaments or resin also cost, but my point is that this is not a particularly unapproachable expense for tabletop game companies.
A simple 3D printer is not useful for mass production which you need for running a business.
Quote2): The shortage for printing services is actually in bookbinding equipment, not printers. Most office supply stores maintain printers which are as good or better than what is needed to print books out, but they tend to not have bookbinding supplies for things other than spiral bound books. The industry will need to go through teething, but that shouldn't surprise, anyone.
Are these printers suitable for mass production and printing several hundred or thousand books?
Quote3) International shipping from Southeast Asia means that quality will almost certainly go up because locally produced books can be produced at the same humidity they are intended to be kept in. SE Asia printing has a lot of problems caused by the heat and humidity. When you take paper products out of the heat and humidity they were created in, they tend to warp as they dry out or absorb moisture.
I am not sure where the most printing companies in China are but I know several in northern China. Especially during wintertime it is awful dry there.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 07:19:19 AMI don't think that you realize how many 3D printers and printing businesses are already out there.
Which need to be suitable for mass production unless you want to pay extremely high prices and wait for real long times.
QuoteWhat labour shortage are you talking about?
Currently the unemployment rate in the USA is about 4.1%. In Florida laws against child labour are becoming more lax because they don't have enough workers.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMWah! They're taking away my slave labor so I can't get cheap crap now!
Note my post above. I'm going to have zero cost increases because I only source from local printers and manufacturers.
All this is going to do increase the costs of my slave labor and environment destroying competition competing against me unfairly.
I'm crying for them. On the inside.
It's also providing opportunities for people I know to get better jobs. GM just announced they're ramping up production at a plant in my county and will need several hundred additional workers. That means their local suppliers will need to expand production and need new hires as well. Then all the other supporting businesses.
Hell, a decade or so ago I used to laser cut game pieces for some local game producers until I was priced out by China and I've been shopping around with getting a 3D printer to do some custom taillight work for a car restoration guy I already cut acrylic pieces for... doing miniature print runs on the side might make that a better deal for me (with the bed size I'd need for the taillight parts I could probably run 50+ figs at a time and could just set it to run overnight).
I'm pretty sure that, rather than DOOOOOMM!!!^tm, what we're looking at here is called Opportunity.
@Chris
I also think that this will be an opportunity for some. Of course the customers will have to pay.
I doubt that there will be zero cost increases.
Last time when Trump introduced tariffs for steel and aluminium (and I am aware that Biden didn't take them back) the prices for e.g. washing machines Made in SA went up.
So we will see.
Btw it seems that a minor mishap happened here. That quote is not from me.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMQuote from: Fheredin on April 04, 2025, 07:18:37 AMA few significant disagreements:
1): You don't need the best 3D printers in the world to make tabletop game components. Most 3D printers in this category go for less than $500. You could mark up most of them over 200% and the cost would still be at or below $1000 per unit. Obviously the plastic filaments or resin also cost, but my point is that this is not a particularly unapproachable expense for tabletop game companies.
A simple 3D printer is not useful for mass production which you need for running a business.
You'd better let all those custom miniature businesses know that they are Doing It Wrong then. It doesn't seem to be stopping them from making a profit.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMQuote from: Fheredin on April 04, 2025, 07:18:37 AM2): The shortage for printing services is actually in bookbinding equipment, not printers. Most office supply stores maintain printers which are as good or better than what is needed to print books out, but they tend to not have bookbinding supplies for things other than spiral bound books. The industry will need to go through teething, but that shouldn't surprise, anyone.
Are these printers suitable for mass production and printing several hundred or thousand books?
Yes. I used to work for Kinko's and we would regularly do print runs of 5,000 books of 128 pages double sided b/w each with laminated color cardstock covers - all softcover and with a glue binding in a weekend. The only thing that was substandard IMHO, was that the glue side of the paper was not roughed up to allow the glue to seep in enough for the books to last a very long time (they'd last for 10 years instead of 25).
For rulebooks included in boardgames, it would be even easier because your average commercial office copier can put out about a thousand per hour of 32 page double sided b/w saddle stitched with color laminated cardstock covers.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMQuote from: Fheredin on April 04, 2025, 07:18:37 AM3) International shipping from Southeast Asia means that quality will almost certainly go up because locally produced books can be produced at the same humidity they are intended to be kept in. SE Asia printing has a lot of problems caused by the heat and humidity. When you take paper products out of the heat and humidity they were created in, they tend to warp as they dry out or absorb moisture.
I am not sure where the most printing companies in China are but I know several in northern China. Especially during wintertime it is awful dry there.
While humidity can really fuck up printing, especially with lightweight paper, you solve that by using air conditioned space with dehumidifier. I worked in Knoxville, TN when at Kinko's and I can guarantee that summers feel like old school science fiction Venus with extra Swamp Ass.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 07:19:19 AMI don't think that you realize how many 3D printers and printing businesses are already out there.
Which need to be suitable for mass production unless you want to pay extremely high prices and wait for real long times.
A 3D printer made for mass production is just multiple 3D printers. You can get the same effect with a bunch of small businesses subcontracted to you.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 07:19:19 AMWhat labour shortage are you talking about?
Currently the unemployment rate in the USA is about 4.1%. In Florida laws against child labour are becoming more lax because they don't have enough workers.
How does that apply to what we are talking about? Is that a general number or is it specific to the book printing business and the 3D printing business?
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 09:27:23 AMYes. I used to work for Kinko's and we would regularly do print runs of 5,000 books of 128 pages double sided b/w each with laminated color cardstock covers - all softcover and with a glue binding in a weekend. The only thing that was substandard IMHO, was that the glue side of the paper was not roughed up to allow the glue to seep in enough for the books to last a very long time.
For rulebooks included in boardgames, it would be even easier because your average commercial office copier can put out about a thousand per hour of 32 page double sided b/w saddle stitched with color laminated cardstock covers.
Interesting. Was that just a regular Kinkos or more of a regional hub where they'd farm out the bigger runs from the normal storefronts out of curiosity? I'm relatively clueless in this regard so apologies if some of the questions might seem n00bish. Is 32 pages the limit for saddle stitched staple binding or is 64 pages possible? I didn't realize commercial office copiers were capable of doing that as it sounds like they could fulfill the printing for average zine, quickstart, or rules light rpg printing just by themselves.
QuoteWhile humidity can really fuck up printing, especially with lightweight paper, you solve that by using air conditioned space with dehumidifier. I worked in Knoxville, TN when at Kinko's and I can guarantee that summers feel like old school science fiction Venus with extra Swamp Ass.
Cedar Bluff Elementary FTW!
Happy Liberation Day, Meredith!
Quote from: RNGm on April 04, 2025, 09:52:49 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 09:27:23 AMYes. I used to work for Kinko's and we would regularly do print runs of 5,000 books of 128 pages double sided b/w each with laminated color cardstock covers - all softcover and with a glue binding in a weekend. The only thing that was substandard IMHO, was that the glue side of the paper was not roughed up to allow the glue to seep in enough for the books to last a very long time.
For rulebooks included in boardgames, it would be even easier because your average commercial office copier can put out about a thousand per hour of 32 page double sided b/w saddle stitched with color laminated cardstock covers.
Interesting. Was that just a regular Kinkos or more of a regional hub where they'd farm out the bigger runs from the normal storefronts out of curiosity? I'm relatively clueless in this regard so apologies if some of the questions might seem n00bish. Is 32 pages the limit for saddle stitched staple binding or is 64 pages possible? I didn't realize commercial office copiers were capable of doing that as it sounds like they could fulfill the printing for average zine, quickstart, or rules light rpg printing just by themselves.
We were the city hub store on Kingston Pike, there were three other stores in Knoxville. For an all-in-one commercial printer I'd keep it at 48 pages or less because any more pages overstresses the folder mechanism (which is plastic and I swear to God, designed to break). You could probably get 64 pages out of it if you used 10-15 pound 11x17 paper, but that is so flimsy that it would tend to jam in the copier during print runs.
Quote from: RNGm on April 04, 2025, 09:52:49 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 09:27:23 AMWhile humidity can really fuck up printing, especially with lightweight paper, you solve that by using air conditioned space with dehumidifier. I worked in Knoxville, TN when at Kinko's and I can guarantee that summers feel like old school science fiction Venus with extra Swamp Ass.
Cedar Bluff Elementary FTW!
Ha! Cedar Bluff Middle School and a year of Farragut High before I moved! Used to buy my games and dice at The Yankee Peddler!
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 07:51:22 AMCurrently the unemployment rate in the USA is about 4.1%. In Florida laws against child labour are becoming more lax because they don't have enough workers.
The vast majority of economists agree that full employment is an unemployment rate of 5% or less. 4.1% is well within full employment parameters, therefore there is no employment shortage.
Also, the majority of teens who work that the bill would effect work in places like grocery stores and entertainment (Disneyworld, Universal Studios, etc). We're not talking about places like meat packing or manufacturing. The percentage of people who fall within that age bracket aren't that significant either. So, you're about a specific job category (grocery stores) for a specific age group (14-17). The number is insignificant and it's only in Florida. It's not like that parents can't just tell their kids not to work their. They can quit or decline to sign the waiver to allow them to work extended hours.
BTW, the Fla law has nothing to do with lack of labor. I've checked multiple sources. It's about aligning with federal standards.
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Quote from: blackstone on April 04, 2025, 10:39:23 AMand it's only in Florida.
So many terrible things get dismissed for being "only in Florida" until they spread...
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 10:31:32 AMQuote from: RNGm on April 04, 2025, 09:52:49 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 09:27:23 AMYes. I used to work for Kinko's and we would regularly do print runs of 5,000 books of 128 pages double sided b/w each with laminated color cardstock covers - all softcover and with a glue binding in a weekend. The only thing that was substandard IMHO, was that the glue side of the paper was not roughed up to allow the glue to seep in enough for the books to last a very long time.
For rulebooks included in boardgames, it would be even easier because your average commercial office copier can put out about a thousand per hour of 32 page double sided b/w saddle stitched with color laminated cardstock covers.
Interesting. Was that just a regular Kinkos or more of a regional hub where they'd farm out the bigger runs from the normal storefronts out of curiosity? I'm relatively clueless in this regard so apologies if some of the questions might seem n00bish. Is 32 pages the limit for saddle stitched staple binding or is 64 pages possible? I didn't realize commercial office copiers were capable of doing that as it sounds like they could fulfill the printing for average zine, quickstart, or rules light rpg printing just by themselves.
We were the city hub store on Kingston Pike, there were three other stores in Knoxville. For an all-in-one commercial printer I'd keep it at 48 pages or less because any more pages overstresses the folder mechanism (which is plastic and I swear to God, designed to break). You could probably get 64 pages out of it if you used 10-15 pound 11x17 paper, but that is so flimsy that it would tend to jam in the copier during print runs.
I agree that it's designed to break to save the company likely 10-15 cents but then charge for repairs. I was cluelessly hoping that 64 pages would be the limit but not at the cost of tissue paper durability/quality. Regardless, it's nice to know that it's at least a possibility locally.
Quote from: blackstone on April 04, 2025, 10:39:23 AMThe vast majority of economists agree that full employment is an unemployment rate of 5% or less. 4.1% is well within full employment parameters, therefore there is no employment shortage.
Dude, that number means that only a few people are looking for a job. Quite often these are people who are unemployable.
QuoteAlso, the majority of teens who work that the bill would effect work in places like grocery stores and entertainment (Disneyworld, Universal Studios, etc). We're not talking about places like meat packing or manufacturing. The percentage of people who fall within that age bracket aren't that significant either. So, you're about a specific job category (grocery stores) for a specific age group (14-17). The number is insignificant and it's only in Florida. It's not like that parents can't just tell their kids not to work their. They can quit or decline to sign the waiver to allow them to work extended hours.
You know that some families cannot afford not to sign such waivers or these kids to quit. And while this may only affect a specific kind of job it is a clear sign that there is a labour shortage.
QuoteBTW, the Fla law has nothing to do with lack of labor. I've checked multiple sources. It's about aligning with federal standards.
I also checked and it seems that it is more aligning to the standards of red states and not federal standards.
@Jeff
Assuming that everything is great and that there will be no additional costs and better quality - why were people like Chris outprized by China?
Ok, I am out of this discussion. We will see how it goes. In my opinion you will have to face raised prices and lower quality (at least in the beginning).
Fortunately I am not affected by this stuff. Free League is in Sweden and Modiphius is seated in the UK
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 11:50:32 AM@Jeff
Assuming that everything is great and that there will be no additional costs and better quality - why were people like Chris outprized by China?
Ok, I am out of this discussion. We will see how it goes. In my opinion you will have to face raised prices and lower quality (at least in the beginning).
Fortunately I am not affected by this stuff. Free League is in Sweden and Modiphius is seated in the UK
OK, which Chris are you talking about? You've lost me and I won't be able to answer your question accurately until I know which Chris.
Also, you may be feeling smug too soon. Free League may be in Sweden and Modiphius may be in the UK, but that doesn't mean that their books are printed in those countries.
So now they're complaining about RPG book printing? All my POD stuff from DTRPG and Amazon comes from Coppell, TX (Dallas) and La Vergne, TN (Nashville). There's literally no need to get anything printed in China except because you are unwilling to fork over the upfront cost of a decent sized printrun for full bleed. That's it. They're fucking game books; this hobby is so inundated with metric tons of "style over substance" that I welcome more indie designers producing good quality stuff and the large corps going out of business because they can't afford to get their coffee table non-playable bullshit produced anymore.
Whatever.
The videos complaining are starting to come out.
Cry harder.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 11:50:32 AMFortunately I am not affected by this stuff. Free League is in Sweden and Modiphius is seated in the UK
So why even comment?
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 04, 2025, 10:41:33 AMQuote from: blackstone on April 04, 2025, 10:39:23 AMand it's only in Florida.
So many terrible things get dismissed for being "only in Florida" until they spread...
Goggle "Florida man" and hope to God it doesn't.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 11:50:32 AMQuoteThe vast majority of economists agree that full employment is an unemployment rate of 5% or less. 4.1% is well within full employment parameters, therefore there is no employment shortage.
Dude, that number means that only a few people are looking for a job. Quite often these are people who are unemployable.
Unemployable for a number of reasons. We have welfare, social security, and other safety nets for those unfortunate enough to where they physically can't work, but we can't help everybody. As much as the Democrats have tried, they haven't made the US a welfare state yet.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 11:50:32 AMQuoteAlso, the majority of teens who work that the bill would effect work in places like grocery stores and entertainment (Disneyworld, Universal Studios, etc). We're not talking about places like meat packing or manufacturing. The percentage of people who fall within that age bracket aren't that significant either. So, you're about a specific job category (grocery stores) for a specific age group (14-17). The number is insignificant and it's only in Florida. It's not like that parents can't just tell their kids not to work their. They can quit or decline to sign the waiver to allow them to work extended hours.
You know that some families cannot afford not to sign such waivers or these kids to quit. And while this may only affect a specific kind of job it is a clear sign that there is a labour shortage.
Again, it has nothing to do with a labor shortage. There is none. You can argue that until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains the 4.1% you cited is consider full employment by every economist on the planet.
Secondly, yes there are some families that are in that situation, and we have welfare and other systems to help compensate. The number of families that fall into that specific category you mentioned are small.
Sorry for the derailment folks.
Quote from: Brad on April 04, 2025, 01:22:09 PMSo now they're complaining about RPG book printing? All my POD stuff from DTRPG and Amazon comes from Coppell, TX (Dallas) and La Vergne, TN (Nashville). There's literally no need to get anything printed in China except because you are unwilling to fork over the upfront cost of a decent sized printrun for full bleed. That's it. They're fucking game books; this hobby is so inundated with metric tons of "style over substance" that I welcome more indie designers producing good quality stuff and the large corps going out of business because they can't afford to get their coffee table non-playable bullshit produced anymore.
Whatever.
POD quality is ass, though. Don't need coffee table books, but smyth-sewn binding is objectively better than a POD glue job. Whether it's a 90-page book, or especially if it's larger, it's going to last longer. I'd argue that this is MORE important for books that are gonna get used, rather than sitting on a shelf and looking pretty.
Quote from: JanDevries on April 04, 2025, 02:28:25 PMPOD quality is ass, though. Don't need coffee table books, but smyth-sewn binding is objectively better than a POD glue job. Whether it's a 90-page book, or especially if it's larger, it's going to last longer. I'd argue that this is MORE important for books that are gonna get used, rather than sitting on a shelf and looking pretty.
No disagreement about POD vs. sewn bindings. However: https://mixam.com/
I am sure more places will start offering that if the demand is there.
Quote from: blackstone on April 04, 2025, 02:15:07 PMQuote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 11:50:32 AMQuoteThe vast majority of economists agree that full employment is an unemployment rate of 5% or less. 4.1% is well within full employment parameters, therefore there is no employment shortage.
Dude, that number means that only a few people are looking for a job. Quite often these are people who are unemployable.
Unemployable for a number of reasons. We have welfare, social security, and other safety nets for those unfortunate enough to where they physically can't work, but we can't help everybody. As much as the Democrats have tried, they haven't made the US a welfare state yet.
In this thread alone the dude has defended/minimized China's use of slave labor and distorted the Florida labor law changes (then expanded to smear "red states"). You know exactly what you are dealing with.
One thing I can say, these leftists definitely have a stranglehold on reality...
Quote from: Brad on April 04, 2025, 02:42:19 PMQuote from: JanDevries on April 04, 2025, 02:28:25 PMPOD quality is ass, though. Don't need coffee table books, but smyth-sewn binding is objectively better than a POD glue job. Whether it's a 90-page book, or especially if it's larger, it's going to last longer. I'd argue that this is MORE important for books that are gonna get used, rather than sitting on a shelf and looking pretty.
No disagreement about POD vs. sewn bindings. However: https://mixam.com/
I am sure more places will start offering that if the demand is there.
That link says the price for a smyth-sewn, 48 page hardback is $268.50.
Edit: and that's digest sized.
Quote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 09:04:58 AMI also think that this will be an opportunity for some. Of course the customers will have to pay.
I doubt that there will be zero cost increases.
Last time when Trump introduced tariffs for steel and aluminium (and I am aware that Biden didn't take them back) the prices for e.g. washing machines Made in SA went up.
..
Biden didn't take them back for good reason; because the steel tariffs were good for the USA:
Quote"Trump implemented a 25% tariff on steel imports in March 2018. His reasoning was related to national security, along with a desire to get US steel mills operating at 80% capacity or higher.
Naturally, the critics of tariffs would argue that steel prices should have increased by 25% or more post-tariff, but even though steel prices increased through the summer (steel prices had already been skyrocketing pre-tariff too) and then began falling substantially. US steel prices eventually fell to price levels much lower than pre-tariff prices.
Why did the price of US steel decrease? Domestic manufacturing of steel increased by nearly 10% for the 2 years post-tariffs. Production rose to 86.6 million metric tons in 2018 and 87.8 million metric tons in 2019, before cratering in 2020 as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. Production bounced back in 2021, as American steel mills produced 85.8 million metric tons of raw steel that year.
This means the 2018 tariffs worked — US manufacturing of steel increased and US steel prices dropped lower.
So now you have a concrete example from the 2018 tariffs that show the critics were wrong. The tariffs led to lower prices, increased American manufacturing, more government revenue, and the creation of American jobs. Also, US inflation (CPI) fell from 2.1% in January 2018 to 1.6% in January 2019, so the tariffs didn't lead to higher inflation either.
The USA will win any tariff war because it has been losing the free trade war for decades. America has literally nothing to lose in this regard."
For table-top gaming:
If domestic manufacturers scale up to meet demand we will see a similar effect. Prices will come down so that games can be made in the US for a reasonable price.
This is an empirical good for the USA. The more jobs that come back into our economy, the better for us in the long run.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2025, 03:42:46 PMThey'll just push the costs onto the customers. The only way that we'll bring manufacturing jobs back to the USA is if the government directly funds their creation and bans international competition. Make a new department of government called the Department of Manufacturing, who will build new factories across the USA and re-employ all those former coal miners.
New factories promptly filled with robots and AI.
As for SJG. Oh boo hoo hoo! You profited off the misery of others and now come crying because you can't profit off it.
On the one hand, it'll definitely make us more self-sufficient. On the other hand, it will probably come at a costs-based price both now and in the future.
We don't have the same level of cheap labor or built infrastructure locally, and even if the jobs come back in potential, and even if there is a reallocation of capital (away from what were previously the preferred investments thereof) our labor pool is still limited. So there's a limit to how much labor we can throw into a given industry even if it becomes suddenly more viable locally in absolutely terms. Also, we don't have as many people willing to work those jobs, especially for a given pricing.
Hopefully even moreso limited than previously once illegal immigrants are no longer being hired locally to work in bad conditions.
Why am I rooting for a labor shortage? Supply and demand, we'll see wages rise for those who don't own their own businesses, or who work lower positions. Also, we'll hopefully see an uptick in local business-starting opportunities.
TLDR: Tariffs will cause prices to go up. This will drive up cost of living. But on the flipside, a labor shortage driven by the tariffs could also hike up labor's wages, which could compensate for the everyman, though overall economic growth will likely still slow a bit since there's only so much labor and capital to go around. But this will still likely rebalance power away from the economic elites and back towards the everyman and aspiring business owner.
(I'm not actually trained in economics, so take all of this with a pile of salt.)
I guess in counterpoint to myself, if the other countries retaliate heavily that would drive down demand for us goods abroad, which could make the labor shortage locally less a thing. Let's hope the negotiations go well on that, I guess.
Quote from: KindaMeh on April 04, 2025, 05:11:33 PMI guess in counterpoint to myself, if the other countries retaliate heavily that would drive down demand for us goods abroad, which could make the labor shortage locally less a thing. Let's hope the negotiations go well on that, I guess.
Veitnam already caved and said they'd lower their tariffs on all US goods to zero and Trump has said their reciprocal tariff rate will likewise be dropped to zero.
The reciprocal tariffs were always a negotiation tactic. Give it a few weeks for the foreign government economists to run the numbers and all but the most Globalist regimes will make a deal.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 04, 2025, 12:59:11 PMQuote from: Coffeecup on April 04, 2025, 11:50:32 AM@Jeff
Assuming that everything is great and that there will be no additional costs and better quality - why were people like Chris outprized by China?
Ok, I am out of this discussion. We will see how it goes. In my opinion you will have to face raised prices and lower quality (at least in the beginning).
Fortunately I am not affected by this stuff. Free League is in Sweden and Modiphius is seated in the UK
OK, which Chris are you talking about? You've lost me and I won't be able to answer your question accurately until I know which Chris.
Also, you may be feeling smug too soon. Free League may be in Sweden and Modiphius may be in the UK, but that doesn't mean that their books are printed in those countries.
Weird to quote myself, but a quick Google search shows that Free League prints their books in Latvia and Lithuania while Modiphus prints their books in the United States, Canada, Australia, Europe, and the UK (apparently to keep shipping costs down). Take it with a grain of salt (Google).
Quote from: JanDevries on April 04, 2025, 03:38:09 PMQuote from: Brad on April 04, 2025, 02:42:19 PMQuote from: JanDevries on April 04, 2025, 02:28:25 PMPOD quality is ass, though. Don't need coffee table books, but smyth-sewn binding is objectively better than a POD glue job. Whether it's a 90-page book, or especially if it's larger, it's going to last longer. I'd argue that this is MORE important for books that are gonna get used, rather than sitting on a shelf and looking pretty.
No disagreement about POD vs. sewn bindings. However: https://mixam.com/
I am sure more places will start offering that if the demand is there.
That link says the price for a smyth-sewn, 48 page hardback is $268.50.
Edit: and that's digest sized.
I didn't say it was cheap! But if there is enough demand I bet the price will drop dramatically. What's amazing to me is the US used to do all this stuff and the prices were maybe a bit higher but wasn't fucking Chinese junk. When I was a kid anything made in China was seen as a joke for poors. Now it's ubiquitous and yet the quality is exactly what it's always been. Can you imagine buying a refrigerator, for instance, that just...works? And maybe you replace the freon after 20 years, otherwise you die before it does. That used to be the norm.
Steve J., what a maroon. He should be joining the class action against Actblue for how they were parties to massive fraud and misuse of the funds Steve and other 'gamers' gave them. What a dip
It seems like an opportunity really. Someone should step up and produce high end board game components in the United States.
Quote from: JanDevries on April 04, 2025, 03:38:09 PMThat link says the price for a smyth-sewn, 48 page hardback is $268.50.
Edit: and that's digest sized.
That's for one. There is a setup cost. If you increase quantity to 100, the price goes to $9.53 per book. At 1000, it's $7.28. Not cheap, but not crazy expensive.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 04, 2025, 11:04:49 PMIt seems like an opportunity really. Someone should step up and produce high end board game components in the United States.
That's the idea, innit?
Quote from: blackstone on April 04, 2025, 02:04:56 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on April 04, 2025, 10:41:33 AMQuote from: blackstone on April 04, 2025, 10:39:23 AMand it's only in Florida.
So many terrible things get dismissed for being "only in Florida" until they spread...
Goggle "Florida man" and hope to God it doesn't.
I live and work in central Florida. I don't need to Google it when I can see it every day. OTOH, the Florida Man stories only seem so ridiculous because Florida allows stories to come out without any credible evidence. Stricter laws elsewhere generally require more stringent reporting, so the Florida Man is really no more common (OK, maybe a little more common...) than idiots elsewhere, they just get more exposure.