Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2022, 06:21:58 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is full-steam partisan/activist/pro-abortion.  I don't care what side you fall on: pro-abortion, or the side that's on the right side of history.  Right to privacy?  Keep your extremism private.

Official word from Steve Jackson, alienating the majority of people.
http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_08_2022/Roe_v_Wade

They states that they'll donate profits to help murder children.  (Link to the "charity" http://www.lilithfund.org )

Lilith fund?!  ROTFLMAO! They should have just called it the Moloch fund.

It's always interesting to me how left-wing groups, while supposedly being atheists, are so often quick to adopt Satanic imagery. On the face of it, it just seems like a bizarre decision to willfully reinforce your opposition's allegations against you. The Jungian conspiracy theorist in me wants to hypothesize that it's down to some kind of subconscious acknowledgement of a wider "Satanic" principle that lies deeper than Christian theology, but that's probably reaching.

It's a strange serendipity that in the last couple of weeks I've both been reading Montague Sommers' book on witchcraft, and exploring the world of Black Metal, and then this pops up. Just seems like there's been a lot of Satan in my life lately...

As much as we like to put issues in binary camps, it's entirely possible for people to have opinions that vary on specific issues.  Obviously, Steve Jackson takes the abortion issue very seriously.

 Their next annual public report, which usually includes revenue and employee numbers, will be interesting. Munchkin is their main revenue stream though and that relies on mass distribution, not an online-connected fan community, so they'll probably be okay. Looking over their forums a number of them seem to have dropped off in participation lately, although that may be just summer.

Salaam Folks,

My first post here, so please be gentle.  Or not.  I'm old.

I've been a GURPS fan for years (and before that, TFT).  At one point, in the early 2000's, I could boast having every single GURPS book.  (Sadly, in a fire, many were damaged...the rest still smell of smoke, but on my shelves.)  Though most of my RPG days are long past--I was far more into it in my Elementary, Junior High, and High School days...D&D White box, LBB Traveller, Gamma World, TMNT, Dr. Who, and of course...GURPS.  I still love looking through the books, but really haven't played much recently.

Politically and religiously, I'm pretty conservative in most ways (my handle here might give you some clues of those political and religious views).  But my views on the legal questions surrounding abortion aren't really dictated by my religion (which has a pretty nuanced view, depending on what legal school you subscribe to)--I view it more as a human rights issue (the human rights of prenatal Homo Sapiens), and being in a secular political system, they don't belong in the political discussion, either.

So I'm unashamedly pro-life, from a secular perspective.  I understand, though, that in this hobby there are many who are very much Pro-Choice, and this hobby isn't the place for that debate...on *either* side.  No matter how passionately I believe in this, I'm not going to expect that everyone in the hobby shares my view on the subject.  And I hope I would be extended the same courtesy by others.

So that's why I was so very disappointed by SJG announcement.  There wasn't even the pretense of saying "this is a controversial issue, and good people can disagree..."--rather, it was basically "if you are against the taking of prenatal human life, you are evil, the SCOTUS is evil, and the state we live in is evil."

It's very much in line with the move from Bill Clinton's "safe, legal, and RARE" to a full-throated celebration of abortion for any reason at any stage in the pregnancy, and any limitations whatsoever are literally the Handmaiden's Tale.  (And any scientific facts on the biological characteristics of prenatal homo sapiens are ignored or actively rejected as irrelevant.  "Science!" is only important if it support your metaphysical presuppositions, I guess.  Once you declare one set of Homo Sapiens as unworthy of human rights, well, all sorts of atrocities are possible and often realized.)

So...should I still buy SJG games?  I just got through an orgy of buying a bunch of 4th edition stuff (.pdfs) because if I start playing more RPGs with my kids (I'd rather bond over these games than the latest Disney drivel), I wanted them to try GURPS and see the boundless possibilities that RPGs have.

Now?  Well, I'm not going to get rid of all my books (hey, I even kept the blackened pages of the books that were all but destroyed by the fire.)  But I will seriously reconsider buying anything from them in the future.  And what was posted about some of the updated Illuminati game cards also reveals where the company's going.  Not so much that Steve might be Pro Choice, or even that he used the Daily Illuminator to proclaim his view...and not even pushing any SJW stuff in his games.  All of these things are personal and, well *pretend* when it's in a game.

It's his incredibly morally self-assured statement, demonizing his opposition--plus his donations to the Lilith Fund.  (And reading the post by Steve, it's not entirely clear that *only* tee-shirt sales will go to that fund.)  That's not playing a game.  That's actively supporting the killing of prenatal Homo Sapiens ***in real life***.  Those dollars will go directly to an activity that would be roughly analogous to having SJG as part owners in a ship importing slaves from Africa two and a half centuries ago.  It's morally abhorrent.

The fact that he stopped allowing posts on his thread at SJG on this issue probably means that some complained about this.  But the way he treats his opposition is frankly disgusting.  I'm not a Christian, I don't want to enshrine the Bible as the law of the land, I have completely non-religious reasons for being against abortion--but somehow I'm part of an evil cabal trying to build a theocracy.  Well, f*ck him and his company.

(And yes, the people running and contributing to the Lilith Fund probably don't believe in a literal Lilith, or a literal Devil.  They're just doing the "Edgy" thing of trying to be provocative in their naming, like Jezebel Magazine or others.  BUT...on the religious side, I'd say actively seeing to underwrite killing unborn humans is pretty much from Shaytan, even if they don't believe in him.  I'm sure Mao didn't believe in Shaytan, but served him well nonetheless in killing millions.  But that's my religious understanding, and I'm not going to let it cloud the issue that is at hand: killing human beings is wrong, no matter what your views on religion.  And again, I understand some might disagree...but it isn't an issue to me if they just shut the h*ll up about it.  But Stevie had to sermonize.  That makes him full-bore SJW and a A**hole.)

Welcome to one of the last places in this hobby where free speech still happens, Osman Gazi.

I agree with your position. The stand or opinion is one thing, but the attitude and bravado behind it was on a different level. So while I try to separate art from artist, if the artist *wants* to be tethered to their art, I am happy to accommodate.

Very well said, Osman Gazi.  I like the point made that he, along with so many others of his ilk, puts his opinion out there as though it's indisputable.  And it's a GREAT point that when he sends his money to the Lilith fund it's not a game.  That's real.  That's sending money to end lives.  No game at all.  Great point!

As far as the ineffable self-confidence of these crusaders, they live in a bubble and believe any new fake talking points their media cooks up. If their media of choice said voting and jury trials must be suspended to save democracy, they'd all high-five each other around the water cooler for agreeing. SJG can drift off peacefully without any more of my dollars.

At this Point are halfway there imo.

If they did not have a munchkin bringing in extra revenue they would have gone the way of Hero Games.

It always makes me laugh when any person owning a business says we don't need you're money. Sure you don't need our money lol.

Quote from: Abraxus on August 23, 2022, 12:14:53 PM
At this Point are halfway there imo.

If they did not have a munchkin bringing in extra revenue they would have gone the way of Hero Games.

It always makes me laugh when any person owning a business says we don't need you're money. Sure you don't need our money lol.

^^^^^This^^^^^^
the illuminati/munchkin games really can't afford to lose a high amount of customers.....or maybe they don't care....eh...what do I know.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 23, 2022, 05:25:05 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on August 23, 2022, 12:14:53 PM
At this Point are halfway there imo.

If they did not have a munchkin bringing in extra revenue they would have gone the way of Hero Games.

It always makes me laugh when any person owning a business says we don't need you're money. Sure you don't need our money lol.

^^^^^This^^^^^^
the illuminati/munchkin games really can't afford to lose a high amount of customers.....or maybe they don't care....eh...what do I know.

Well, Steve is around 70, and Phil Reed is a few years older iirc, so I guess it depends on what the succession plan is once one or both decide to move on.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 08, 2022, 02:44:36 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 08, 2022, 01:46:25 PM
I can support the art as separate from the artist until the artist rubs my nose in it.  Then I can't anymore.  Because when I try, instead of enjoying the art, all I can think about is, "This was made by that SOB that rubbed my nose in it." 

Separating the art from the artist is a two way street, and I don't see much work being done going down the opposite lane.

^ This right here.  Well said!

Catching this right now due to some recent things I've read about SJW and SJG agree here,  thanks for mentioning and this echoes my thoughts and find it nice that it's not just me. no car wars new version for me . still been wanting it for years. but sheesh.

Car Wars was fun back when it was the only game in town.  If I would do vehicle combat today, I'd probably go with Gaslands.
https://planetsmashergames.com/gaslands/

Oh thanks! had no idea!

Gaslands to me is pretty lame imitator of Car Wars, but Fantasy GMR, if you're interesting in the basic Car Wars 6th Edition, I have a barely-used Double Ace Box set that I wouldn't mind selling you.  Then you can own it by getting it on the secondary market.  Msg me if you're interested.

Quote from: rkhigdon on August 23, 2022, 05:44:52 PMWell, Steve is around 70, and Phil Reed is a few years older iirc, so I guess it depends on what the succession plan is once one or both decide to move on.