Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 13, 2022, 09:27:16 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 13, 2022, 06:14:44 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on July 13, 2022, 12:34:08 AM
Well, damn.  Pat's one of the more insightful posters on the site.  Though it's very clear he did break the rules, I'll miss his ideas.

he was often a good poster. The problem is he'd been warned before and kept taking the bait and breaking the rules.

Can Pat request to be unbanned after a time?  A good Virtual Time Out can do people wonders.

Has there been any push back from DTRPG regarding SJG's screed?

I'll throw in for Pat as well. His posts have been well-informed and intelligent for the majority. I think we all just need to recognize trolls and not take their bait a little better perhaps.

I have seen nothing on DTRPG as of yet regarding SJG, and I doubt that we will. It's been fairly obvious where their political beliefs lie for some time now. The site is firmly in the camp of "politics in gaming? Only if they agree with mine!"

Quote from: shihansmurf on July 13, 2022, 10:50:00 AM
Now no GURPS for me.

Just because the author now is being a moron doesn't mean you should have to throw away pre-moron material you already have. I'm not pitching my collection of classic Disney films I bought decades ago because they're now releasing nothing but shit sandwiches.

Nor am I going to pitch my 3e D&D or GURPS material just because the proceeds of new sales will be going to something I consider reprehensible. I paid good money for those books so the only reason for me to dump them is if I no longer find any value in them.

Similarly, if you find something in a used bookstore you like, you're not giving SJG a dime if you buy it there.

My objection is his turning future sales into material cooperation with evil. Past sales were not and so don't need to be regarded as intrinsically evil.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2022, 10:18:21 AM
I will politely add my voice to those asking for clemency for Pat, as well.

I will too, because of his generally informative posts and because he was bated by a troll I fully contend was a Big Purple plant (and thumbing his nose with his icon).

I will note however, that while "I was baited" is an explanation, it doesn't necessarily excuse the behavior. The rules were broken after a warning and so some type of punishment must be meted out or the rules means nothing. Anything beyond that is getting too far off-topic for my own tastes.

Never really understood burning or throwing out stuff you already paid for. I feel like generally the problem either wasn't in the product when you bought it or you were misinformed. In the former case why get rid of a functioning product when the company already got paid, and in the latter case the damage is done, and you might as well adapt it a bit to better suit your views if you can (like in the case of a TTRPG) or see if you can get at least something out of it before deciding it needs to be discarded.

Also, good point on used bookstores, and I guess also garage sales, eBay, etcetera.  I hadn't really considered that there are legal ways to get decent products otherwise owned by people who hate you without supporting them or giving them money.

I'll vote to give Pat an eventual second chance if that's a thing we can do, especially since he multiple times tried to help me not infringe on the thing that got him banned, (not even just on the RPG.net thread) and is very arguably one of the best posters on this site. Not able to vote for Battlemaster, tho, cuz I don't see a very good argument for it or changed behavior, and he did admittedly mock or use demeaning language towards a lot of people even if it was at times in response or whatever. I'd give Pat very good odds that he is trying to change, though, given he genuinely seemed to care about helping me not do what he had been warned about, and I guess probably that should be brought up here and potentially count for something.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 12:17:06 PM
Just because the author now is being a moron doesn't mean you should have to throw away pre-moron material you already have.

Agreed, and besides Steve Jackson already got his money.  Throwing away stuff doesn't hurt SJG, it hurts the person who bought it.

Just like it was silly when fans of the Dixie Chicks had a problem with their stance on Bush and burned their stuff.  Didn't hurt the Dixie chicks cause they already had their money.  And when their temper tantrum was over, they spend money rebuying their stuff.   Dixie chicks 1, Fans 0.

Sorry to have to use politics a little in my example as I really try to avoid politics altogether.  But the example worked in this instance.

Though, selling off the offending product might take sales away from the offender.  GURPS Martial Arts 4e goes for a lot these days.

Quote from: David Johansen on July 13, 2022, 01:49:01 PM
Though, selling off the offending product might take sales away from the offender.  GURPS Martial Arts 4e goes for a lot these days.

Yeah, you are right.  I mean if you really want to get games from offenders out of your collection sell them.   You will recover some of the money and as you pointed out take possible sales from the offender.

GURPS still has the largest diversity of campaign settings. Including licensed settings like Alpha Centauri, War Against the Chtorr, and more!

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 12:17:06 PM

Quote from: shihansmurf on July 13, 2022, 10:50:00 AM
Now no GURPS for me.

Just because the author now is being a moron doesn't mean you should have to throw away pre-moron material you already have. I'm not pitching my collection of classic Disney films I bought decades ago because they're now releasing nothing but shit sandwiches.

Nor am I going to pitch my 3e D&D or GURPS material just because the proceeds of new sales will be going to something I consider reprehensible. I paid good money for those books so the only reason for me to dump them is if I no longer find any value in them.

Similarly, if you find something in a used bookstore you like, you're not giving SJG a dime if you buy it there.

My objection is his turning future sales into material cooperation with evil. Past sales were not and so don't need to be regarded as intrinsically evil.

I type like an idiot at times.

I meant to type "No new GURPS for me"

Anything I still want to acquire I will do so on the secondary market.

I try to separate the art from the artist, but this is a bridge too far.

Mark

I struggle with the idea that not buying something from people who are ideologically opposed is some kind of moral act. If a SJG product is fairly priced, then it's a zero sum exchange. You trade money for a game. It's not a donation. If you feel morally compromised being an SJG customer, then SJ has an equal and opposite moral compromise on his side. Would it not piss him off that pro-lifers buy his games? Does that not compromise the very public position he's taken? His side will say "Hey Steve, your post is all well and good but you're still taking money from all the pro-lifers buying your shit."

I get that it feels wrong paying someone you disagree with. But they must equally feel wrong giving you the product in exchange.

Just musing here. I have not decided for myself what is right, but it's come up a lot lately with people moving to the red list, Goodman Games being an example.

Also adding my voice to clemency for Pat.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 13, 2022, 03:10:01 PM
I struggle with the idea that not buying something from people who are ideologically opposed is some kind of moral act. If a SJG product is fairly priced, then it's a zero sum exchange.

Until he says, "I'm going to take the profits and donate them to a woke pro-abortion organization named after a demon who murders infants."

Then my religion calls making that purchase "material cooperation with evil" as you are buying a non-necessity knowing that the profits of the sale are going to be used to fund something against your religious beliefs.

Which is why this SJG thing is such a bone-headed move. He took what WAS a morally neutral act and made it into one that requires one segment of his customer base to knowingly violate their morals if they wish to buy his product... FOR NO REASON. No one was clamoring for him to take a stand on the issue, but he did it anyway to virtue signal to the Woke that he is down for their struggle to destroy Western Civilization.

I'm going to throw out there again that he may have done it fully knowing the "get woke, go broke" mantra because his business is already nearly broke and this at least gives some type of cover that isn't "I ran my company into the ground through bad business decisions." Instead he will be able to claim that it is all the "Istaphobes" fault when his debts come due.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 03:49:50 PM
Then my religion calls making that purchase "material cooperation with evil" as you are buying a non-necessity knowing that the profits of the sale are going to be used to fund something against your religious beliefs.

Okay. I get that. But it boils down to "knowing"? That does not sit well with me. The "knowing" requirement seems to reward ignorance. If SJG kept his opinion and donation private is it still material cooperation with evil? I guarantee the vast majority of pro-life gamers don't read the SJG blog and are ignorant of his views. Are they morally in the clear?

This is an open question, not just for you and your beliefs. I personally avoid buying anything made in the non-free world to the extent possible. But, I have to rely on knowing in the form of the "Made In ____." declaration and that is grey and often abused.

PAT IS A DORK! But he's our dork and needs clemency.

However, I'm also against 99% of bans. I'd bring BattleButtMaster back too, especially because that freak of the week was unintentionally hysterical. We're better off letting marxist bitches make their idiot noise to liven up the forums.

As for Moloch Jackson, all the fans of baby butchery are free to give SJG all their money.

I'll be voting with my wallet elsewhere.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 13, 2022, 12:17:06 PM

Quote from: shihansmurf on July 13, 2022, 10:50:00 AM
Now no GURPS for me.

Just because the author now is being a moron doesn't mean you should have to throw away pre-moron material you already have. I'm not pitching my collection of classic Disney films I bought decades ago because they're now releasing nothing but shit sandwiches.

Nor am I going to pitch my 3e D&D or GURPS material just because the proceeds of new sales will be going to something I consider reprehensible. I paid good money for those books so the only reason for me to dump them is if I no longer find any value in them.

Similarly, if you find something in a used bookstore you like, you're not giving SJG a dime if you buy it there.

My objection is his turning future sales into material cooperation with evil. Past sales were not and so don't need to be regarded as intrinsically evil.

I agree that throwing out your GURPS books is complete overkill. Jackson and SJG legitimately created some great gaming stuff over the decades, and that should be acknowledged. Keep your GURPS books.

That said, I won't reward him or his company with any future money.....because his current actions and statements horribly violate my moral and religious beliefs, to such a point that I would feel like I was contributing to evil if I gave him money now.....just so that I could play "elf games". Everyone has a threshold, everyone has a limit. Steve Jackson breached mine, and I guess that's it.

WANNA REPLACE GURPS (lite) FANTASY?
http://www.stargazergames.eu/warrior-rogue-mage/

Warrior, Rogue & Mage (for me) is everything kewl from GURPS Fantasy without the mountains of crunch I never enjoyed from GURPS.

Fans of GURPS lite & Fantasy RPGs will probably enjoy W,R&M (often called Wyrm by fans) and I can confirm it runs great at the table and there's PLENTY of bips and bobs to customize your campaign and characters. Not to the Nth degree like GURPS, but more than enough to run a kewl campaign of kewlness.

And it's free. With lots of supplements. Which are also free.

However, I know NOTHING about the author's politics...and hope to never know.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 13, 2022, 04:05:36 PMBut it boils down to "knowing"? That does not sit well with me. The "knowing" requirement seems to reward ignorance.

Think of it instead as proper assignation of responsibility. I can't be responsible for anything I'm not sufficiently informed about to be able to make an enlightened decision, so long as the information I'd need to meet my responsibilities isn't something I can reasonably acquire for myself or am not legally obliged to ensure I know.

As a parallel, one of the legal requirements for being charged as an accessory to a crime is that you have to know the act you're assisting with is either criminal or in protection of criminals. I can be convicted of being an accessory if I help my friend hide a body; I can't be convicted if there's a reasonable likelihood I had no idea that rolled-up carpet I helped him throw out contained a body. Conversely, reckless negligence doesn't require me to know my workplace is unsafe; the crime is in my not having taken the time and effort to make sure, because the workplace is my responsibility. What a merchant does with the money I give him isn't my responsibility to learn or anything I'm entitled to know -- but once I do know, after he freely announces it, it becomes my responsibility not to pretend I don't.

If Jackson assumed that he wouldn't lose any more customers by announcing where his money would go that he hadn't already lost by announcing his position, that's not unreasonable, but it's still wrong. If he assumed that he'd gain enough new customers who agreed with him to make up for the ones he lost, that seems considerably dodgier, but still believable. Chris24601's hypothesis that the financial writing is already on the wall for SJG and this is either a Hail Mary pass or a posterior-covering responsibility shift seems plausible, but I have to admit that I generally believe shortsightedness over 3D chess when it comes to explaining people's actions.

I also will chime in to plead for clemency for Pat.