Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 10, 2022, 07:14:33 AM
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games.  How sad.

For some of these things I do wonder if we have the order reversed. "Get Woke. Go Broke" is a well-established theme/meme at this point. Anyone in business has to be at least peripherally aware of it.

So, let's say you've made a bunch of boneheaded business decisions (i.e. are going broke; perhaps because you've been riding off a single product line that is starting to turn unprofitable), but want to hide your personal incompetence that would make it difficult to find future employment. Well, one option might be to loudly announce you've gone Woke to one and all so that, when your broke-ness comes due, you can blame the failure on those who refused to buy your product because of their istophobia and hatred. Now it's not your fault and you might find some Lefty who'll hire you despite your company failing.

No idea if it's the case or not for SJG, but someone upthread mentioned "just what has SJG really been doing in terms of business lately?" and it got me thinking. I know it's largely been riding on the back of Munchkin, so if those sales were in decline there could be some panic for attention/sales boosting/setting up a scapegoat going on.

Just a thought.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 10, 2022, 07:57:04 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 10, 2022, 07:14:33 AM
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games.  How sad.

For some of these things I do wonder if we have the order reversed. "Get Woke. Go Broke" is a well-established theme/meme at this point. Anyone in business has to be at least peripherally aware of it.

So, let's say you've made a bunch of boneheaded business decisions (i.e. are going broke; perhaps because you've been riding off a single product line that is starting to turn unprofitable), but want to hide your personal incompetence that would make it difficult to find future employment. Well, one option might be to loudly announce you've gone Woke to one and all so that, when your broke-ness comes due, you can blame the failure on those who refused to buy your product because of their istophobia and hatred. Now it's not your fault and you might find some Lefty who'll hire you despite your company failing.

No idea if it's the case or not for SJG, but someone upthread mentioned "just what has SJG really been doing in terms of business lately?" and it got me thinking. I know it's largely been riding on the back of Munchkin, so if those sales were in decline there could be some panic for attention/sales boosting/setting up a scapegoat going on.

Just a thought.

Yeah, it does seem like a chicken and egg question sometimes.  He wouldn't be the first to lose his old market (due to saturation, disinterest, or other factors) and to decide to try and gain a new one by going woke.  It's understandable, if stupid.  What's worse are the companies that still have a large market and decide they can expand by pandering to new markets, assuming their old customers will just put up with it.  I'm not sure which one SJG is (I think a solid argument can be made for either), but either way he's done unneeded damage to his brand.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 10, 2022, 01:20:05 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:04:09 AM
Today's announcement from Steve Jackson Games is -

Irrelevant to gaming. Like this thread.

Why do game companies and gamers feel they need to express an opinion on this? Not even the GURPS rules are complicated enough to model abortion. It's just irrelevant.

  No it is not.  At least not to gaming, I agree it would be best if the opinions were kept where they belong, away from gaming....but when a game company decides to bring it up on his game company site....he is the one dropping the turd in the punch bowl and making that turd relevant to his occupation/hobby.  People making comments on it become relevant etc.    Would I prefer he is announcing plans to release a setting book for fantasy or a post apocalypse fallout type world?  Yes.  But this is where he decides to focus energy and resources from his company, so it IS relevant. 

Is anyone talking about this anywhere else? I'm not seeing it discussed over on TBP, but they may be hiding the celebration in Tangency.

(*Adds SJG to the 'Companies Not to Purchase From' list. Somewhat disappointing, but I was never big on GURPS. If Troll Lord Games or PEG did this, that would be a heartbreaker ... )

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 10, 2022, 07:14:33 AM
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games.  How sad.

That was the question I asked earlier. Exactly how much business does SJG expect to gain from this, and is it likely to make up for or outweigh what they lose? I'd be genuinely curious to hear people's thoughts on the commercial value of open proselytizing in RPGs.

I encourage folks to both raise awareness of what's going on with SJG and to use their folly to our advantage. 

Just made a video on my YouTube channel and blog post about it.  If SJG doesn't want pro-life money, Kort'thalis Publishing is more than happy to bridge the gap!

VS

I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.

But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.

I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?

I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.

One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical", and that anyone who seeks to create an arena of life (like what games one plays for leisure entertainment) where politics is unnecessary or irrelevant is really only seeking to create a bubble where their politics reign unquestioned. Public declarations of position are designed as much to force people out of their supposed "pretenses of neutrality" as they are to strengthen one's own side. The toxicity of this approach to politics is that by definition, it's unfalsifiable: if pleading for a neutral space is never believed to be anything but a stalling or disengagement tactic, then neutral spaces become impossible.  (It has been used by other political alignments as well, q.v. Bush's famous, "You are either with us or with the terrorists," but the universality of this stance is, I think, a uniquely Woke thing.)

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?

I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.

One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical"

I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about. While it is a free adventure, it is both a political call out and an advertisement for his game Cha'alt. His blog announcement of the adventure went:

QuoteJust this morning, I released a new PDF scenario for Cha'alt... my eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalypse campaign setting.

The Good Syma'arian commemorates the striking down of Roe vs Wade.  Hey, bad precedent is bad precedent.  Not to mention, murder is wrong.  While I'm not an absolutist, I lean stronger on the pro-life side.

http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2022/05/anti-abortion-free-chaalt-adventure.html

And in the text of the adventure itself, it has the same political appeal.

QuoteThis scenario was written to commemorate the historic upending of America's "Roe vs Wade" abortion case from 1973... the year D&D was conceived.

As most people are hopefully aware, the overturning of this legal decision by the United States Supreme Court does not mean abortion is
suddenly illegal throughout the country. Rather, limitations and restrictions are kicked-back to the individual states so that the people can
decide for themselves what's to be done about this particularly thorny issue.

The Good Syma'arian touches on various political topics, referencing The Bible, pop-culture, and my own eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalyptic campaign setting Cha'alt... get the entire trilogy!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sGj55NiTGJ-WFHlr-VBou-B0rqAlEAt1/view

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 10, 2022, 07:14:33 AM
Steve Jackson took a stand, in the hopes that people who don't buy or play games, will buy and play his games.  How sad.

Could he have possibly taken a stand based on beliefs and principles,or are you incapable of believing that anyone who nay have left leanings could have princples?

Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2022, 02:09:42 PM
I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about.

Fair point. But I think it is also worth asking if this kind of explicitly politicized product design and advertising would have been a viable tactic in an environment not already polarized by those advocating the opposite agenda. "Non-Woke" didn't become a selling point for games until enough people got fed up with overt Wokeness in gaming.

Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2022, 02:09:42 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?

I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.

One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical"

I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about. While it is a free adventure, it is both a political call out and an advertisement for his game Cha'alt. His blog announcement of the adventure went:

This is it... I mean, I've been defending Venger's products online even if I don't agree with him politically per se. But I'll still buy his stuff and say he's got every right to release what he wants. This is why I hate the likes of DT because they are pro-censorship (when it suits them) and pro-certain politics. And I say that as a lefty...

Quote from: Dropbear on July 08, 2022, 10:49:59 AM

Quote from: Reckall on July 08, 2022, 10:38:39 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 10:19:27 AM
But in typical idiot Lefty fashion, you can't win that argument so you try to drag people off the topic into general politics

You are so blinded by your fanaticism that you didn't even considered that I could agree with you. This is not the point. The point is:

This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion

It is the first thing you read on this forum. Pundit's forum, Pundit's rules.

BTW, I wonder why no one even bothered to point out how SJ, in that very post, attacks the Right too:

Helping someone affected by one of the mass shootings that the right, and the Court, seem to be fostering out of sheer vicious perversity.

I noticed that as well. He is clearly an Austin Texan, lol. That is probably the only city in Texas that aligns with this statement accusing the right of vicious perversity because gun laws are not much stricter than they are.

The rule is about devolving an EXISTING thread into an unrelated political discussion. This thread started out as a political discussion. There is nothing to devolve.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2022, 06:53:03 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.

He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.

Definitely NOT libertarian.  I thought that he was all this time.  Steve Jackson was a law major before joining the game industry.  With his poor grasp of the Constitution, I'm glad that he went into gaming.

The forum here covered on his words on abortion and his friend, Lillith, but he really went weird and crazy, like an anti-Trump Alex Jones or something.  It was pretty short, but  he  presented a lot of irrational conspiracy theories.  For instance: A national tithe?  He heard people in high positions of power talking about it and taking serious measures toward it?  Only if you're hearing little voices in your head.

What do you mean by Law major? Did he go to Law School or did he just select a vague "Pre-Law" major while an undergrad?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PM
I don't think this is really a woke decision per se... This is about being pro or anti-abortion and not necessarily about the other ridiculous woke-scold nonsense that certain game companies shove down your throat. Of course, I'm pro-abortion but I'm certainly and virulently against uber political correctness.

But what if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement? Even though I might not agree at all with their sentiments.

I just don't believe you are automatically 'uber woke' if you're against abortion. So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to still buy their stuff.

Agree and agree.  I think "Woke" is used for ones with the SJW ideology, regardless of if they're doing it to protect their corporation from government giving them a bad social score.  I don't question the sincerity of SJG's SJW stance, because it was so unhinged, rather than professional.

I also support free speech.  Unlike SJG, I believe in the Constitution, and will defend his right to free speech, if people attack his right to speak.  I also don't care if Steve Jackson is pro-life or pro-abortion.  I don't believe in boycotts.  But I do believe in things like the woke list, that helps inform consumers, and allow them make a personal decision to not support a company if profits from their purchases are going to something they believe is intrinsically evil.

@ member VengerSatanis, what it the url link to your video?  I'd like to look at it.