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So, not quite a year ago I got Uber Goober's Steampunk RPG... and hated it.  I may or may not have done a review of it... I remember writing it but not necessarily posting it... and all that.

However, I only mention this because it serves as an interesting case to illustrate the point I intend to make now that I've got some cider in me and a good boiling head of nerdrage built up. Yeah.

So: Genre. Those of you who have paid attention to my various rantings over the years (and seriously?: Creepy. Go stalk someone else...), may realize that I have a generalize dislike of the word Genre. Not because it is a bad word, but because people misuse the concept of genre all the time... they create with an eye on 'Genre', which is a post facto pigeon hole that honestly should be divorced from the creative impulse, but that is neither here nor there.  Steampunk is, in fact, a Genre... a post facto catagorization of various fictive works, and thus is subject to at least some stringent rules of catagorization that do not, should not, apply to purely fictive works. And by naming itself after the Genre, and setting itself up as a sort of generic genre work, teh Steampunk RPG is ideally positioned like few other creative works to be judged on that metric.

Of course, I have no real authority to pronounce judgement on what is, or is not Steampunk, thus I will endeavor to 'back mah shit up' with some reason and logic and general belligerent persuasiveness.  

Steampunk, like many 'genres' formed more or less organically, and as such it has gone through a few growing pains over the years as the 'culture' shaped itself. It is far more a cultural movement than a fictive one, more akin after a fashion with Furry fandom than with, say, Jedi fandom. That may seem somewhat insulting, but I don't really care about that. What I'm saying is not that Steampunkers have weird sexual fetishes that they insist on parading about in public as a valid lifestyle choice (or whatever...), but rather than Steampunk started as a sort of costume dressup and makebelieve, supported by art and later fiction, rather than growing out of fiction and art until it took a life of its own. THis does mean that there is no one single seminal source of the 'genre', and that the real fans can be quite disconnected from various exemplar works.  The real heart of the 'movement' seems to be costumers and club crowds as much as readers and gamers and so forth.

So what is Steampunk? What defines it?  

Well, the most obvious and facile answer is that it is an aesthetic informed by victorian or edwardian fashions combined with alternative technologies, often in the form of supersciences, largely utilizing steam, alchemy (in some cases) and Tesla style elctrical devices.  There are people who would break down the word and explaine the punk aesthetic, but those people are pretentious choads, so instead I'll say that the idea of 'punk' in Steampunk actually refers to a sort of cyber-punk aesthetic that snuck in. Cybersteam sounds silly, so Steam punk it was, as many early steampunk works heavily focused on some form or another of human augmentation (which is not to be confused with the smaller catagory of augmentation via cybernetics, or steam-netics I guess...), which is still prevalent in some versions of Steampunk.

However, the focus on Edwardian or Victorian fashion is slightly misguided. Wild Wild West is a sort of steampunk classic, and it was a western. One could argue for a Steam-Western, but I find that level of subdivision actually... divisive.  I'd rather point out that Steampunk's aesthetic does come from a mid to late 1800s western civilization standpoint, largely of British extraction (but steampunk prussians are legit, so still...).  British and American steampunk are essentially the focus, however.

Rather more controversial is my own personal thesis: Most of the Steampunk crowd are extremely careful craftsmen, very detail oriented. While they may pick and chose somewhat freely from historical details, their addition of the fantasic means that that freedom must be informed by a sense of restraint, an informal code of ethics that permits and refuses certain elements. That code of restraint is largely cultural, a good part of the movement is informed by a sense of nostalgia for 'better times', things we have discarded in the name of progress, like honor, are preserved, while technology progresses along alternative lines.  I feel this is actually somewhat important, both the level of detail found among true afficionados of Steampunk, the craftsmanship they show, and also the idea that they've rejected general progress for older notions of propriety which is why they've focused on alternative technological progress.  Cleaner tech, more culturally in tune tech. Individual mad science instead of cold sterile corporate R&D labs. Many of the technologies that have not be given analogs in Steampunk are indicative. Steampunk computers are almost unheard of. Steampunk cellphones even moresoe.  It is a fantasy, and escape from a stressful and unloved modernity... yet one where messy modern ideals can still be used with a wink and a nod, such as equality for women. I could argue that this is more because women love dress up more than men, and men love women who share their geek love more than they love the political implications of trying to keep historically true in their fantasies, but that is neither here nor there... its merely one such example. Most steampunkers aren't terribly interested in realistic depictions of class based deference either... at least not unless they can be the nobles. ;)

In RPGs, the best Steampunk RPGs never set out to consciously fit that genre.  Deadlands didn't do a bad job with its mad scientists, though hardly ideal, what with its focus on dirty gunslingers being dirty and sweaty in the dirt (most Steampunk stuff is amazingly clean, I will note.).  Iron Kingdoms is very good steampunk (despite crossing one of my canons later...), and I'm not convinced that 'being steampunk' was the goal. I think they started with the premise of steam powered robots and it sort of ballooned from there. I personally would count Victoriana, despite an almost utter lack of actual steam or punk in the book, if only due to the fantastic elements of an otherwise completely straight Victorian setting.  I already mentioned Deadlands.

Steampunk, naturally, set out to be a Steampunk RPG, and while MOST of my problems with it came from the system (which, to be honest, I have a hard time remembering after more than an hour of not looking at it. Seriously non-intuitive to me...), I loathed the presented 'setting' almost as much.

Let me compare Victoriana to Steampunk.

Steampunk has zepplins and elves and dwarves and fairies n'shit in a loosely detailed analog to a victorian sort of world (with murdered doxies in the streets and consulting detectives and so forth), with a very heavy emphasis on very loosely defined steam-tech, more towards the 'punk end of the spectrum.  Partly because the Uber Goober system seems to rely on giving you a shopping list of effects and letting the player build the set dressing there is very little governing the actual science, other than magically radioactive copper in place of coal (clean, not modern, technology!).

Victoriana is, however, played completely straight with an analog alternative world that is reconizably our own. It has elves and dwarves and fairies n'shit, including murdered doxies in teh streets and consulting detectives.  The tech however, appears almost entirely historically accurate for a game of this sort, as is largely the culture (wimmens in their place, even!, Classism! Racism!), so only the intrusion of the fantastic makes it other than a truly historical setting.  So we could say the focus more on teh Steam (as in Steam Era) end of the spectrum. So much so that calling Victoriana 'steampunk' at all is probably mildly controversial.  

The key difference between the two winds up not being the technology level (which clearly wouldn't favor the played-straight Victoriana anway), but the actual effort to capture the 'victorian world'.  In that regards Unhallowed Metropolis (which I generally disliked) is a much better Steampunk RPG than Steampunk RPG, despite a generally wonky 'writing off' of the rest of the world, and advancing the timeline a few centuries, and UM has some absolutley terrible ideas in it (like... ah... mary sue classes with non-specific super knives that no one else can use. Because.).

This does go back, ironically, to one of my personal peeves. People, and cultures, are defined largely by their tools and their history (mostly tools for RPGs sake...).  Steampunk can't offer much history because their setting is so blandly, generically, Not-Earth, and they can't offer much for technology because their system is basically player defined from Champion style rules effects (without, you know, Champion style rigorous math. Or organizations that could be quickly used to explain the mad science, or whatever.).  It is, in something of an utter counterpoint to the entire movement, slovenly.  It is more quintessentially modern in its rather blase approach to almost every detail, only appropriating the most superficial aspects of Steampunk at that, and then, in the name of bland genericism, diluting it with a sort of 'anything goes' mentality that excuses the blithe use of magic critters and potentially furries.  In trying to be any Steampunk setting, it winds up being no Steampunk at all.

And thus reinforces my point: Aesthetic matters.

Crucially: If steampunk arose from an admiration of the aesthetic style of Victorian Era England and America, and emulation of that style, if not fidelity to actual history, is important, than STYLE is one of the defining elements.

The Style of the day was very stiff and formal compared modern fashion, and in emulation of that even the least historic costumer still spends an inordinant amount of time ensuring his 'look' is right. Proper, buttoned up, neat.  Slack is permitted in some cases, and posh isn't required, but care is. they are playing a role, and they want to look the part.

Following the emulation of style is emulation of traits of the era, cultural signifiers, things people can be nostalgic for without feeling guilty about it. Honor and dignity, a certain formal politeness. By extension, the Culture of the Era is important, or at least a reasonable facsimile of the best aspects of the culture of the era.

The technological trappings are actually third, last if you like, on our list of elements.  I would hold that a historically accurate posh victorian outfit would go over better in a Steampunk crowd than someone in jeans and a t-shirt with a copper steap powered gauntlet and a tesla-coil cannon. Prove me wrong.

Thus Steampunk RPG and a few other properties work rather backwardsly towards their goal, focusing on the last and least element to the detriment of the other two.. and of course, by focusing on genre conventions rather than doing a good job.

So, back to the beginning: what makes a good Steampunk RPG then? What are the canon elements?

I believe that a good Steampunk RPG would use a large number of elements off of the following list, but that trying to keep all of them, or excessive fidelity to them, is problematic.

In no particular order of significance:

Steam powered technology, in advance of historical norms. Tesla based electricity and alchemical monstrosities are both permissable, but steam tech is a must, lose points of no one has to grab a shovel and fill the furnace.

Set in an alternative real world, in necessary advancing the time line, but not the culture from the mid to late eighteen hundreds or pre-World War I nineteen hundreds.  Lose points if it is not actually set in the Anglosphere (with apologies to any Russian, or whomever,  Steampunk afficionados. You are welcome to come up with your own take on teh genre to compete with this trope. Steam-Meiji Japan has been done, and works well, so its doable.).  Vague analogs do not count.

An emphasis on retro cultural traits, such as high culture, honor and dignity and so forth.  Rose tinted revisionism may actually be worth bonus points.

An emphasis on the style of the era, or an idealized fantastic take on the style of the era. I submit that aviator style goggles with smoked glass lenses are MUCH more popular among Steampunk fans than they ever were in real life. Ditto tophats, canes and corsets as outer-garments.  Proper historicity is less important than looking excellent.

Metallic palette dominated by copper and brass.  Green and smoke for glass objects. De-emphasis the chromes and when possible eliminate plastics (Even historically accurate plastics), though some rubber is acceptable, and in some cases encouraged.

Psuedo sciences from the era are encouraged to be correct to some degree. Lost continents, philosopher stone alchemy, mesmerism, phrenology, tarot divininations, golden dawn heremeticism... all have their place. If not actually true (and without lost continents I submit you actually have gone too far!), then characters at least should have every reason to respect that they Might Be True.

Emphasis on development of outmoded transportation. Trains and zepplins, steam ships and so forth.  Steam powered autos are permitted if rare and exotic, while horse and buggy, or some strange steam-tech version of a horse and buggy may be preferrable.

Above all, an emphasis on presentation. Style counts for a lot.




Note: This is hardly a definitive list by any means.  Iron Kingdoms is a pretty good Steampunk while only barely hitting a few elements on the list, but filling in by capturing the feel of the (actually an earlier era!) on a grander scale. Of course, they put a lot into the presentation, into Style, and they did hit the steamtech pretty hard.

One thing about my list that I will not revise is the exclusion of fantasy elements from the list.  Alchemical monsters (frankenstein) chthloid horror and even fucking elves all can fit in Steampunk just fine. They do not, however, define or create it. They can, if misused, seriously detract from it. Likewise hard coded magic (to include psychic powers beyond mesmerism) are also excluded as neither helping define or exclude a property. In using our 'textbook case' of a 'bad Steampunk product' I can then submit that they spent too much time on their fantastic elements and not enough trying to capture the era, but most of all, it lacked a certain panache in the presentation.

Note, by my own list Victoriana (which I held up in counterpoint) utter fails as well, but then I admitted plainly that it was mostly a better than Steampunk because it captured the ethos better, not because it was an ideal Steampunk game. Given what a fractious and bitchy lot we gamers are, I doubt we will ever see the definitive Steampunk game.

So here's me, doing my part.  Discuss.

Quote from: Spike;642796So, not quite a year ago [...] Discuss.

Gah! Long! Will read later!

One comment, re: Westerns.

The time frame for Steampunk is typically Victoriana (works like Ghosts of Manhattan aside.) Victoriana typically is set in 1870 to 1899. (Or thereabouts. You know. Roughly.)

The time frame of the Western genre is... roughly 1870's to 1890's. So, you know, there's some general overlap there, and many consciously Steampunk works are set in the American west. (Though, usually without the genre trappings of the Western.) Boneshaker, by Cherie Priest, is one such book. (It's kind of Deadlands without the magic and monsters. Other than zombies.)

Which brings up an excellent point: whatever the origins of Steampunk (I'd point out The Difference Engine as originating the name, because it involved not just steam-tech Victoriana with hackers, er, clackers, but it was also written by Cyberpunk giants William Gibson and Bruce Sterling, which made the name practically inevitable.) as a lifestyle movement ("When Goths discover the color brown."), it is quite consciously a literary movement now. Many writers consciously write steampunk novels. So, you know, it is a literary thing, now.

(Added, the complications of retroactive recognition of pre-existing works as Steampunk. Just to fudge with the scholars here.)

EDIT: Now I've read it all.

A long rant where the OP does capture the ideals of Steampunk but then contradicts himself several times, even acknowledging this, whereby his personal tastes overwrite the conclusions he has reached.

There are lots of Steampunk style games out there and many have different slants to them. I must admit to not being a huge fan of trying to do a Steampunk world and then just slapping Elves and Dwarves into it. This is one of the reasons I haven't bought a number of Steampunk styled games (Uber Steampunk, Telara, Victoriana, Iron Kingdoms). They often seem to be needless grafts onto a Steampunk setting and in my opinion do not really add much to them. If I wanted to play an Elf or a Dwarf then I'd choose a fantasy setting to do it in.

Good post, Spike! Enlightening! :)

Not an expert on Steampunk myself, I may have read a novel or two in the "genre" and of course I love Wells and Verne but. Thus good to get critical info!

I love Spike's screeds but they're too damn long. This was a good one.

Spike, you say good things about Victoriana. What's the system like? And does it support a mad scientist/inventor type character a la Deadlands'?

Hmm... I don't actually like the system, actually, Butcher. Mind you, I think I have two copies of the damn thing (I was busy and distracted whilst browsing game stores...), but I couldn't find either one after hours of searching my house during the writing.

As I recall its a smallish dice pool system. As noted, I was more impressed with the effort that went into detailing the setting and integrating the fantasitic elements as natural parts of the setting.

Pre-submission update: Found it under a guest's jacket! haha.  Yes, it appears to be a fixed TN dice pool system using d6's, where successes are counted. It also appears to have an opposition roll made by the GM for difficult tasks, which removes successes.  Dice pools have an unknown cap*, but five seems to be relatively substantial

*unknown because I am somewhat rushed and don't have time to delve deeply into the system for something that may not be hard coded (written down) in the book.

For me one of the main pillars of steampunk (and the one that puts the 'punk' in the title) is the sudden rapid advance in technology over the course of the 19th century. Advances had been incremental until then, someone from the 11th century wouldn't feel terribly out of place in the 18th, even guns were more or less flint and steel mechanisms.

Then suddenly you have self powered locomotives, you have Jules Verne dreaming about going to the moon, you have arcing electricity dancing around men in cages, phones, lightbulbs, wireless transmission, Tesla, and much more. The sudden explosion of technology challenged the old order and in ways began the process of democratising living standards and by extension political power. Therein lies the punk.

Gentleman-scientists, bold adventurers, explorers armed with new technology setting forth to fill in the blank spaces on the map, lone iconic figures standing up against the accepted order, even when they are part of it, maverick geniuses testing theories, this is the heart of steampunk.

It annoys me greatly when some abuse the genre for grubby nationalistic bombast, that's not what it's about, particularly when you consider the many atrocities that took place in the name of progress during that era, the barbarism of centuries past magnified a thousandfold by growing industrial might, excused by deliberate wilful blindness to any moral implications.

It's about the dawning light of a new age, except in steampunk the wildest imaginings of visionaries of the time are actually real, and the world is somehow stuck in this age of discovery for longer than in the real world.

I love Steampunk and would love to mix it with a failing Russianesque dynastic setting (in the way Warhammer uses Germany). Difference Engine meets Nikolai Dante, or something.

Wow, long analysis for what is essentially a craft culture that emerged out of the Goth movement.

Steampunk is entirely a visual movement, and has no inherent philosophy, or even music, associated with it. I find that quite extraordinary, and am still not sure what that says about our current culture.

I've never tried a steampunk style setting or game but would love to play in one just to try it out some day.

Tsars commission a Difference Engine, then another, then another, then "network" them together and "outthink" the coming Revolution, manage to shore up the Empire by creating economic plans that actually work thanks to the advantage created by the D-Es.  Tsarist Russia lasts well into the 20th century, no WW1 (or one easily dealt with by the Imperial Russian Army and it's Engine-designed equipment, and Engine-plotted strategies), no WW2.  

It's 1950, and copies of the Difference Engine have sprung up worldwide.  An expansionist America has absorbed Mexico and Central America and is eyeing South America greedily after only just losing a trade war (that had actual hot war bits) with Britain in the 1930s.  Japan has firmly allied itself with the US, determined to drag itself out of the 1880s once and for all.  The British Empire is ossified and crumbling but still holding firmly to Canada, Australia and tenaciously to India - although that last colony is more like Canada is now (the British Engine accurately calculating that Gandhi's rising popularity would eventually force them to relinquish power there).

The German Union - including Austrio-Poland and Hungary - has one of the most compact and powerful Engines of all (occupying a mere two thousand square meters, capable of over a hundred thousand calculations per minute, despite the best efforts of Russian agents.  A good portion of the Engine's calculating power, however, isn't devoted to central planning, but rather given over to the scientific pursuits of von Braun and Einstein, both of whom have discussed intriguing ideas regarding planetary exploration and the energy sources capable of propelling a craft through space...

...

There's some steampunk for ya, not set in Victorian times.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;642940Wow, long analysis for what is essentially a craft culture that emerged out of the Goth movement.

Steampunk is entirely a visual movement, and has no inherent philosophy, or even music, associated with it. I find that quite extraordinary, and am still not sure what that says about our current culture.

Not entirely true. There is a literary tradition/genre which was jokingly called "steampunk", and it kind of stuck, and then there is also the fashion movement of the same name. They have not that much to do with each other.

Notably, the first wave of "steampunk" sci-fi isn't actually punk on any level, as the name was essentially a joke.

What's interesting is that we now have a wave of fiction which is more aligned to steampunk-fashion than it is to past steampunk-fiction. Or to put it another way - a lot of modern steampunk fiction is actually now a bit more punk, and also more prone to extraneous pointless gears.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;642940Wow, long analysis for what is essentially a craft culture that emerged out of the Goth movement.

Steampunk is entirely a visual movement, and has no inherent philosophy, or even music, associated with it. I find that quite extraordinary, and am still not sure what that says about our current culture.

I believe I actually covered that with my overemphasis on 'style' and the importance of visual presentation. I believe I also covered the social and cultural reasoning that seems to underly the cultural adoptions of the craft/costume based movement wrt nostaligic mannerisms.


'round these parts I'm famous for turning one sentance ideas into turgid, wordy grindfests.  Debates between me and, say, John Morrow would turn into marathon matches to see who got exhausted and quit first.  Usually me, since I don't have his library of ready links to toss up in a hurry.

It's funny to see Moorcock's Warlord of the Air books being republished and branded as Steampunk. I wonder how well his avidly political approach will go over with the Steampuk as aesthetic crowd.

Quote from: Haffrung;642966It's funny to see Moorcock's Warlord of the Air books being republished and branded as Steampunk. I wonder how well his avidly political approach will go over with the Steampuk as aesthetic crowd.

Haha yes.
It's been awhile since I read'em, but they're great fun, good books.
Wells has been considered "Steanpunk" for awhile hasn't he and I Believe he was more outspoken politically than Moorcock...but, of course, century ago etc.

Read alot of Wells recently. Interesting to contrast his stated political opinions with his expressions in his works.

Also interesting was picking up a random book in an airport and having Wells be a main character (The Map of Time).

He is definitely adaptable to the whole Steampunk thing.  I do feel I should have dropped a few non-rpg sources into my... essay. Not Wells, but Girl Genius and other early precursors. I did want to demonstrate the visual and detail oriented aesthetic by showing a random artist's work in designing steampunk renders. For free, as a hobby and showing far more concern for artistic and detail elements than many paid artists I've seen over the recent decades, but fitting everything I wanted to in was out of hte question.

I would prefer a steampunk setting sometime in the 1990s USA. Just as many tech gadgets, but more trains and steam-powered stuff in general. Victorian times are boring as hell to me (outside the Old West).

Something with "punk" in it absolutely SHOULD be political!

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;642940Wow, long analysis for what is essentially a craft culture that emerged out of the Goth movement.

Steampunk is entirely a visual movement, and has no inherent philosophy, or even music, associated with it. I find that quite extraordinary, and am still not sure what that says about our current culture.

Um, you do realize steampunk was a literary genre decades before anyone decided to cosplay it, right?

Hell, I think even GURPS Steampunk predates any steampunk-fashion/craft culture.

Quote from: RPGPundit;643604Something with "punk" in it absolutely SHOULD be political!

I always found the whole "punk" ending in the term Steampunk a bit of a misnomer, probably only attributed to the fact that Gibson wrote both the original Cyberpunk and the original Steampunk novels. Not that I have a terrible problem with it, but while the archeotypical characters  of Cyberpunk novels are definitely "punk" - as they are usually rebels, outlaws, bandits, prostitutes and various trash that would (and often did) sell their livers for the next fix, while at the same time - ultimately fight the system. On the other hand, in Steampunk, it's at best 50/50 - on one hand you have the airpirates, "clackers" and mad artists/poets, but I feel like the vast majority of archeotypes are part of the establishment - members of gentry, officers, doctors, detectives, etc. etc.

I would certainly agree though to that sentence - and perhaps in a way, a key is to shift the typical Steampunk character, from a member of establishment, to someone fighting it. And really, you have a lot of establishment to fight in the typical 1870 -1920 setting of steampunk. From the last vestiges of feudalism to the falling of colonies, there is a plethora of political issues to tackle.

Quote from: TristramEvans;643606Um, you do realize steampunk was a literary genre decades before anyone decided to cosplay it, right?

Hell, I think even GURPS Steampunk predates any steampunk-fashion/craft culture.

I'd say that Steampunk has one interesting feature - I sometimes feel like there's more RPG material to it, than the source material for RPGs. Though admittedly that seems to change, as Steampunk is The Shit at the moment.

Punk in the social context usually refers to a movement where the protagonists create their own stuff rather than just consuming it.

The Teddy boys buy old edwardian clothes and reimage them, the rockers buy military jackets and ride motorbikes. The 1970's punks created their own music, fashions etc from bits of junk, safety pins, black plastic sheets etc , they created their own music with little or no professional equipment or experience.

This is the punk that we see in cyber punk - the creation of home produced tech to outsmart the evil coporations

It's what we also see in Steam-punk  - the same self created stuff, in this case highly crafted with a specific esthetic.

Punk has come somehow to mean "lippy rude little wankers" but I believe that this is the result of the term being applied to the behaviour of the early adopters.

In the archaic parlance of course a punk is a young male homosexual prostitute, although I do not think that usage is particularly relevant.

Hey, All!

Steampunk has been an abiding interest of mine since I saw the original 1954 Disney 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea... followed by Island at the Top of the World. (No, not in 1954 - I'm not that old! Probably more like 1969 to 1970. Sheesh.)

I thought I'd throw my contribution of this big Steampunk RPG List up where everybody can find it - at fifty roleplaying games of various vintages and being available. You might find John Harper's GHOST LINES of interest. At least I did.

Brad Elliott's Massive Steampunk RPG List! (http://www.voxorbisdesigns.com/?p=126)

And I agree with Pundit, here - something with 'punk' in the name SHOULD have some politics in it!

Finally, this is a living document - if there should be Steampunk RPGs that I've missed, let me know in the comments! Be warned, though, I am spectacularly uninterested in being told what Steampunk is. I have my opinion and that works for me. Make a polite case for your inclusions, and I'll listen!

Forgotten Futures is pretty nifty, with game versions of actual Victorian science fiction novels.

Space 1889 is what one might expect from GDW, especially the treatment of military affairs.

"Steampunk" still strikes as a silly term, but I don't lose sleep over it.

For people looking to get all detail oriented with their Victorian Steampunk, I cannot recommend Jess Nevin's Encyclopedia of Fantastic Victoriana highly enough.

It's breadth is astounding and intimidating. It is truly encyclopedic. Jess left few stones unturned, and you can readily read up on stories and authors long since forgotten by time.

Unfortunately, it's out of print and copies are very expensive. Still, worth it if you've a yen to explore history and literature of that era. (As opposed to literature about that era.)

Punk in this context means disruptive technologies changing the entrenched social order. So even stuffy old Baron Waxytache can be punk as long as he's building things to help strive towards a new era of enlightenment, completely unaware that it will almost certainly eventually end in the overthrow of the society he rigidly adheres to.

Punk in steampunk means the search for knowledge and technology undermining layers of impenetrable social strata, caste systems, and centuries of custom. So it definetely is political even if the scientist or adventurer is not aware of this.

The age we're living in right now for example could be called "digipunk" in the exact same way. Maybe a couple of centuries from now gamers will be sporting circuit board earrings and wearing anonymous masks, and talking about computer viruses that create zombie viruses.

Although primarily a fantasy game Castle Falkenstein had several things in its favour:

1. the magic system was excellent (if magic is your thing in steampunk).
2. the overall rules/presentation was excellent.
3. there was at the back of the book a mechanically light system for building steampunk marvels that was exceptionally flavourful.

For me something between 1889 and Falkenstein would have been excellent. 1889 was just a little too poe faced - particularly with it's relatively staid rulesset.

Etherspace was the most interesting recent steampunk game, but again staid (d20) rules made it seem needlessly stuffy and the setting, while overall conceptually very interesting, didn't seem to go anywhere.

Castle Falkenstein is to steampunk as Shadowrun is to cyberpunk.

Love me some CF. Pity it's been OOP for so long, never really got around to snag a copy.

BTW what's Goober's Steampunk, link please?

Quote from: flyingcircus;643808BTW what's Goober's Steampunk, link please?

From my Massive Steampunk RPGs List:

http://steampunkrpg.com/ (http://steampunkrpg.com/)

My current favorite Steampunk novel is Sanderson's "Alloy of Law" book, which added on to the Mistborn series by advancing the date.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;642940Wow, long analysis for what is essentially a craft culture that emerged out of the Goth movement.

Steampunk is entirely a visual movement, and has no inherent philosophy, or even music, associated with it. I find that quite extraordinary, and am still not sure what that says about our current culture.

The more you post, the more it becomes obvious to others that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  It was a literary movement well before it was a visual movement.  The visual movement was copying the literary, not the other way around.  And you not knowing that is kinda surprising, given you call yourself a long time RPG fan, and RPGs were exploring this territory well before the first former-Goth decided to tinker with some watch parts.

And, even the visual movement has some inherent philosophy.  That philosophy is that things made in the earlier industrial era placed importance on aesthetics in addition to utility, and that is better for society.  It's akin to the resurgence of the art deco era.  It's the reason why you see 1940s refrigerators and 1950s stoves on TV even in the most modern genre show - because the aesthetics of those appliances is superior to the modern utilitarian look of current appliances.  

It's a philosophy that says that how things look can be just as important for our mindset as a society, as their utility. It emphasizes a balance between the form and function.

And if you don't think that's a meaningful philosophy - go look some time at the towering gray Russian blocks of buildings built during the Stalin era purely for the utilitarian housing of people with no consideration for a pleasing architecture, and compare that to Los Angeles art deco buildings and Arts and Crafts movement architecture like the Bradbury and Union Station.  

There's no question that the gray behemoths depressed and fostered massive pessimism and hopelessness, while the artistic architectural works like those of Frank Lloyd Wright and others inspired people to further greatness at places like the World's Fair in Chicago.  Form which inspires innovation is also an element of Steampunk - and the literal practice of the visual movement is to use old items to make new, unique functional creations.

So yes, even the Steampunk visual movement has a philosophy behind it.  At it's heart, it's the same philosophy driving Apple to be the #1 company in America, despite it being a lesser company in terms of technical performance.  How things look has an impact on how we think about the world.

As for the "punk" part of the word, I don't think it's a joke or a misnomer.  As this excellent article (http://www.usrepresented.com/2013/03/25/of-cogs-and-culture-the-steampunk-renaissance/) states:

"The “punk” designation of any movement refers to its anti-establishment, counter-cultural leanings. Steampunk is unique in that the culture it rebels against is one of laziness, selfishness, disrespect and a low-minded resentment towards anything exceptional.  Thus, in order to be revolutionary, Steampunk returns to an older philosophy of bearing and personal excellence; of class and attention to detail; of mankind’s inherent greatness and that siren which calls us to ascend, progress, and advance beyond the limitations of nature."

As for music - of course there is Steampunk music.  Go look it up mang.  It's a thang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk_music#Music).  It sort of fuses "folk, gypsy, jazz, blues, and industrial".  It's nor primarily musical in nature, and it's still a young and evolving genre of music, but it certainly exists and is making inroads.

Quote from: The Butcher;643798Castle Falkenstein is to steampunk as Shadowrun is to cyberpunk.

Love me some CF. Pity it's been OOP for so long, never really got around to snag a copy.

Yeah, and the extant copies all have really crappy binding I'm afraid. I haven't seen one w/o pages falling out in a decade.

One of the funnest RPGs to read, though.

Why hasn't it been reprinted? Anyone have any idea on the game's current owners/legal status?

Quote from: Mistwell;643825And if you don't think that's a meaningful philosophy - go look some time at the towering gray Russian blocks of buildings built during the Stalin era purely for the utilitarian housing of people with no consideration for a pleasing architecture, and compare that to Los Angeles art deco buildings and Arts and Crafts movement architecture like the Bradbury and Union Station.  There's no question that the gray behemoths depressed and fostered massive pessimism and hopelessness, while the artistic architectural works like those of Frank Lloyd Wright and others inspired people to further greatness at places like the World's Fair in Chicago.

Yes, that was a style known quite aptly as 'brutalism', and has blighted many cities since then. They may as as well have "Lose all hope, ye who enter here" stamped on the lintel, intent on crushing the human spirit. It wasn't utilitarian incidentally, but quite deliberately harsh, they went out of their way to make it look that way. The lot should be bulldozed forthwith.

Quote from: Brad Elliott;643809From my Massive Steampunk RPGs List:

http://steampunkrpg.com/ (http://steampunkrpg.com/)

Ok, thanks for the link and info.  I saw this on Amazon before, looked at the ad and skipped it.  Not enough info on it.  So it's really bad huh?

Quote from: flyingcircus;643865Ok, thanks for the link and info.  I saw this on Amazon before, looked at the ad and skipped it.  Not enough info on it.  So it's really bad huh?

You bet, Flyingcircus! You can use my Steampunk RPG List to look at all the various games and their websites (if their companies still have them, that is.)

As for Uber-Goober Steampunk, I can't say I like it much either. You can take a look inside the book and see sample pages which should give you an idea of its layout and ideas. I have personally skimmed the book itself (my sister is a game store owner) but chose not to buy it... because this is a game that doesn't know if it wants to be a toolkit to build a roleplaying game setting or have one. Mostly the former. My tastes run to having an actual world presented, which Uber-Steampunk does not do. Perhaps in its other supplements?

Quote from: TristramEvans;643835Yeah, and the extant copies all have really crappy binding I'm afraid. I haven't seen one w/o pages falling out in a decade.

One of the funnest RPGs to read, though.

Why hasn't it been reprinted? Anyone have any idea on the game's current owners/legal status?

There was a Polish print not long ago, which means that someone bothered to sell the licence - so may be a sliver of hope for reprint.

Quote from: TristramEvans;643606Um, you do realize steampunk was a literary genre decades before anyone decided to cosplay it, right?

If by that you mean previous works have been collectively categorized as such. I'm talking about when Steampunk became a 'thing'.

Quote from: Mistwell;643825The more you post, the more it becomes obvious to others that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Yes, it's not like I actually attend things like The Steampunk World's Fair, or report on it, or talk to the people involved, or anything.

Quote from: Mistwell;643825And, even the visual movement has some inherent philosophy.  That philosophy is that things made in the earlier industrial era placed importance on aesthetics in addition to utility, and that is better for society.

***

It's a philosophy that says that how things look can be just as important for our mindset as a society, as their utility. It emphasizes a balance between the form and function.

Bull. Shit.

Have you seen Steampunk fashion? It's all tophats, gears, and googles. And you know what they all have in common in the context of Steampunk? They're all used EXCLUSIVELY for decoration and are functionally useless.

So if anything it's a movement against efficient functionality. How the way something works, if not optimal, is an artistic expression in itself (if that).

Quote from: Mistwell;643825And if you don't think that's a meaningful philosophy - go look some time at the towering gray Russian blocks of buildings built during the Stalin era purely for the utilitarian housing of people with no consideration for a pleasing architecture

***

There's no question that the gray behemoths depressed and fostered massive pessimism and hopelessness, while the artistic architectural works like those of Frank Lloyd Wright and others inspired people to further greatness at places like the World's Fair in Chicago.

Funny you mention that, because that's the kind of architecture that pops up in SteamPunk's kissing cousin, DieselPunk.

Quote from: Mistwell;643825At it's heart, it's the same philosophy driving Apple to be the #1 company in America, despite it being a lesser company in terms of technical performance. How things look has an impact on how we think about the world.

Yeaaah, there's a lot more behind Apples success than that. Apple is successful because they took advantage of how we naturally interact with technology and each other. It's the reason Apple stores are run like restaurants, and the employees use Apple devices to do the work there. Also their performance is usually better than competing devices too, so not sure where you're getting that from either.

Quote from: Mistwell;643825As for the "punk" part of the word, I don't think it's a joke or a misnomer.  As this excellent article (http://www.usrepresented.com/2013/03/25/of-cogs-and-culture-the-steampunk-renaissance/) states:

"The "punk" designation of any movement refers to its anti-establishment, counter-cultural leanings. Steampunk is unique in that the culture it rebels against is one of laziness, selfishness, disrespect and a low-minded resentment towards anything exceptional.  Thus, in order to be revolutionary, Steampunk returns to an older philosophy of bearing and personal excellence; of class and attention to detail; of mankind's inherent greatness and that siren which calls us to ascend, progress, and advance beyond the limitations of nature."

While nice, that's reading a HELL of a lot into the movement. And no, SteamPunk is NOT unique in that respect.

Quote from: Mistwell;643825As for music - of course there is Steampunk music.  Go look it up mang.  It's a thang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk_music#Music).  It sort of fuses "folk, gypsy, jazz, blues, and industrial".  It's nor primarily musical in nature, and it's still a young and evolving genre of music, but it certainly exists and is making inroads.

You mean, for example, Abney Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abney_Park_(band)), the EX-GOTH band? Who's lead singer I'm told (by someone far more involved in the movement than I) has never read Jules Verne or any other Steampunk lit?

Yeah, calling music 'SteamPunk' is nothing more than an effort to cash in on a popular brand, and doing a lot of revisionist classification to add existing works to the genera. And this is most definitely NOT what happened with Punk Rock or even Goth.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;643958If by that you mean previous works have been collectively categorized as such. I'm talking about when Steampunk became a 'thing'.

Well, the term originated in literary circles in the 1980s, coined by JW Jeters. It was a well-known subgenre of science fiction by the early 90s, with Gibson's The Difference Engine usually cited as the work that gave the term widespread acceptance. It was first used in the title of a book in 1995 with DiFillipo's Steampunk Trilogy. GURPs steampunk was written in 2000. Castle Falkenstein and Forgotten furtures predate that, and GURPs Steampunk was a reaction to a huge trend towards Steampunk in gaming at that time, also evinced by the Planescape setting.

Meanwhile, the steampunk as fashion/craft trend is cited as beginning at Burning Man in 2006.

So...16 years after it was popularized by Gibson, close to 30 years after the term was coined.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;643958If by that you mean previous works have been collectively categorized as such. I'm talking about when Steampunk became a 'thing'.



Yes, it's not like I actually attend things like The Steampunk World's Fair, or report on it, or talk to the people involved, or anything.

Conversation kind of begins and ends here when you display that level of ignorance.  Steampunk became a 'thing' well before YOU think it became a 'thing', and huge segments of it you remain entirely unaware of.  So when you didn't even know it before it was fashion (which was decades after it was a 'thing'), it's no surprise you're still so unaware of much of the movement that you think people mentioning parts you are not aware of must be bullshit.

How about you look deeper into this topic you claim expertise on.  More than one person here is telling you you're unaware of a huge segment of it, and decades that happened prior to your apparent awareness of it.  

Shit dude we've been talking about this topic in terms of RPGs since at least 1988 (and RPGs were a tad late to it in terms of the literary movement). That's almost 20 years before it became a fashion movement.

(http://www.waynesbooks.com/images/graphics/space1889gdw.jpg)

Quote from: TristramEvans;643835Yeah, and the extant copies all have really crappy binding I'm afraid. I haven't seen one w/o pages falling out in a decade.

One of the funnest RPGs to read, though.

Why hasn't it been reprinted? Anyone have any idea on the game's current owners/legal status?

They should reprint it, but if they do, Comme Il Faut should be included in the core book.

I could never find a copy of the Book of Sigils.

What I saw of Sixguns and Sorcery didn't really inspire though.

I had to rebind my copy; i think it's because the fluff part of the book is printed on better paper than the rules part.

Quote from: The Traveller;643838Yes, that was a style known quite aptly as 'brutalism', and has blighted many cities since then. They may as as well have "Lose all hope, ye who enter here" stamped on the lintel, intent on crushing the human spirit. It wasn't utilitarian incidentally, but quite deliberately harsh, they went out of their way to make it look that way. The lot should be bulldozed forthwith.

Hey!

Brutalism fucking rocks, man. It's an awesome style of architecture.
But you're quite correct that it was intentionally harsh-looking, thus the name.

Not to say I don't like Art Deco as well. Allthough I generally prefer Art Nouveau/Jugend.

Quote from: Anon AdderlanFunny you mention that, because that's the kind of architecture that pops up in SteamPunk's kissing cousin, DieselPunk.

Gotta say, I'd be more interested in DieselPunk than SteamPunk.

The thing is, any movement that says "make your own stuff" (be that "stuff" your look, or your technology, or your lifestyle) is by definition a political movement.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;644616The thing is, any movement that says "make your own stuff" (be that "stuff" your look, or your technology, or your lifestyle) is by definition a political movement.

RPGPundit

It's not a movement.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;644633It's not a movement.

Just because the agenda is to make funny hats & goggles rather than free pandas or fight for freedom of Vietnamese burglars, doesn't make it less of a movement.

Quote from: Rincewind1;644636Just because the agenda is to make funny hats & goggles rather than free pandas or fight for freedom of Vietnamese burglars, doesn't make it less of a movement.

Steampunk as a literary effort or as an RPG usually has political undertones, some intentional, some not. China Miéville for example has wheeled out numerous steampunk works with a blatantly hard left bent to them, which is more hijacking the genre for his own ends but still.

Steampunk as in the ex-goth types doesn't really have an agenda, it's just fashion like emo kids.

Quote from: The Traveller;644639Steampunk as a literary effort or as an RPG usually has political undertones, some intentional, some not. China Miéville for example has wheeled out numerous steampunk works with a blatantly hard left bent to them, which is more hijacking the genre for his own ends but still.

Steampunk as in the ex-goth types doesn't really have an agenda, it's just fashion like emo kids.

Traveller just nailed it.

Gotta say, I don't generally think "Mieville = Steampunk" - I guess I've drunk the CoolAid and use his own term New Weird, but considering that term covers everything from Mieville to Murakami* it might well be way too big & loose. I mean when I think "Steampunk" I basically think "pseudogoth with a hard-on for Victorian fashion and quite possibly a romantic view of the Victorian Age", to be honest, allthough that's quite possibly a bit unfair as I'm no expert on the issue.

*=lots of his works - maybe even most of them - do have "weirdness" in them, like "guy who can talk to cats", "talking sheepman" etc. and at least one of his works - Hardboiled Wonderland and the World's End - is pretty pure sf (or science fantasy maybe depending on POV but I'd say sf). Oh and much recommended. Certainly nothing Steampunk-y about his works at all, mind.

Quote from: Rincewind1;644636Just because the agenda is to make funny hats & goggles rather than free pandas or fight for freedom of Vietnamese burglars, doesn't make it less of a movement.

It's not a political movement.

I hate it.

Jim Butcher just announced he's doing a new Steampunk series.

The problem I've had with steampunk RPGs for the most part is that Steampunk is as much about aesthetics as anything, so to really capture that mood an RPG book needs to be gorgeous. The art is going to be really important. And most steampunk games I've seen recently just can't manage that, wether its the half-hearted "anime" steampunk doodles or just plain mediocre art.

Quote from: Mistwell;643825As for the "punk" part of the word, I don't think it's a joke or a misnomer.  As this excellent article (http://www.usrepresented.com/2013/03/25/of-cogs-and-culture-the-steampunk-renaissance/) states:

"The "punk" designation of any movement refers to its anti-establishment, counter-cultural leanings. Steampunk is unique in that the culture it rebels against is one of laziness, selfishness, disrespect and a low-minded resentment towards anything exceptional.  Thus, in order to be revolutionary, Steampunk returns to an older philosophy of bearing and personal excellence; of class and attention to detail; of mankind's inherent greatness and that siren which calls us to ascend, progress, and advance beyond the limitations of nature."

Frankly I think that the quoted portion here is bullshit.  I don't read any of that in any so-called Steampunk.  These are obviously just platitudes they've plastered on top of their boringly mainstream political views.

The punk portion of Steampunk is definitely just a meaningless appendage because of William Gibson; and the book in question reads absolutely nothing like a Cyberpunk novel.

I think that Steampunk is probably ideal for "punk" elements in reality, but almost none of the fans of the genre are anything other than college campus conformists who don't like punks because they often say unforgivably rude things and don't like to follow the laws put in place by the hurt feelings police.

There is an undercurrent in literature (and film) that predates cyberpunk, and you can read it in westerns and noir very directly which both directly predate cyberpunk and inform it.  Both genres are pervaded with a sense of alienation or men that are naturally loners and follow their own code.  Who for whatever reason don't belong in society.  There is a Nietzschean overtone to the genres in that for whatever reason the protagonist's "God is dead" and they have to make up their own rules, and usually even have a moral certitude in deciding right and wrong regardless of what anyone else might think about that.  They aren't out and out anti-establishment, but they don't put much value on the judgments of authority.

Cyberpunk takes things to it's logical conclusion, in that God is dead, the state is dead, democracy is dead, philosophy is dead, and anything that could possibly hold communitarian or populist society together has completely spiraled out of bounds.  

In some sense in the way that Elric is a subversion of Conan the Cyberpunk protagonists is a subversion of the Noir PI or Western outlaw with a heart of gold.  The Cyberpunk protagonists has moral certitude just like the protagonists of his predecessor genres, except that moral certitude isn't something that the audience can necessarily agree with (he's a punk).  We are really only on his side because it doesn't matter that he's a self-righteous cunt, because there is no 'redemption' through conformity in societies 'norms', or society is now so massive or degenerate that there is no 'norm' to speak of.  He's attempting to carve a new world out of the remains of the old (and probably failing).  Unlike the Western outlaw who lives on the frontier, the Cyberpunk punk is attempting to turn civilization into a frontier, because it either doesn't actually really work as a civilization anymore, or he just doesn't want it to because it presents itself as a bulwark against him acting out his own desires.

There's nothing remotely like any of that in Steampunk from my reading, which isn't Western, Noir-ish, Cyberpunk, or Nietzschean at all.

The Traveller has made the most compelling argument on how Steampunk is punk, but I think that's just an argument on how it could be punk rather than how any steampunk actually reads.  A character that wanted to use technology to carve a new world out of Africa or the Americas based on his sole vision would almost definitely be a Steampunk villain.  

Captain Nemo is the closest thing to a Cyberpunk character in a Steampunk setting, and that really only works because he's an Indian during the British Raj, which gives him something to actually rebel against in both the British and his own people due to their collaboration and apathy.  He's consciously not a savior of India and his war is a private one.  Even now though, his 'anti-Imperialism' would be read as some radical chic progressivism, which is pretty much what Steampunk resembles politically already (it's the 19th century but racism, sexism, classism, nationalism or any form of exclusion are all bad mkay; which means Captain Nemo is out anyway because he's certainly not a kumbaya figure trumpeting the Anglophone Enlightenment).

See, the thing is radicals from the 17th century onward won out basically and were firmly entrenched by the Enlightenment era portrayed in most Steampunk settings.  They created the modern world, so you're left with Steampunk as Radicals for the Establishment, which is basically what the radical chic is today anyway, and the white faction of that clique is derived from the same milieu as the bulk of steampunk fans.  

They just don't get punk, and the genre reflects it.  It's actually greatly reduced in potential because it's developed and promoted by such a conformist subculture that has such thin skin.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794The Traveller has made the most compelling argument on how Steampunk is punk, but I think that's just an argument on how it could be punk rather than how any steampunk actually reads.  A character that wanted to use technology to carve a new world out of Africa or the Americas based on his sole vision would almost definitely be a Steampunk villain.  

That's not what I said - the advance of technology upsetting established social orders doesn't neccessitate engaging in colonialism of your own.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794Captain Nemo is the closest thing to a Cyberpunk character in a Steampunk setting, and that really only works because he's an Indian during the British Raj, which gives him something to actually rebel against in both the British and his own people due to their collaboration and apathy.  He's consciously not a savior of India and his war is a private one.  Even now though, his 'anti-Imperialism' would be read as some radical chic progressivism, which is pretty much what Steampunk resembles politically already (it's the 19th century but racism, sexism, classism, nationalism or any form of exclusion are all bad mkay; which means Captain Nemo is out anyway because he's certainly not a kumbaya figure trumpeting the Anglophone Enlightenment).

You're making the mistake I outlined earlier. The Victorian era was repugnant by any rational modern standard, the abuses of what could charitably be called pseudoscience to justify appalling atrocities aren't what steampunk is about. It's not even about rebellion, it's about science>society. Even the most rabid molotov cocktail-throwing leftist should be able to play a gentleman scientist with a clean conscience.

Quote from: TristramEvans;644785The problem I've had with steampunk RPGs for the most part is that Steampunk is as much about aesthetics as anything

So alllll those steampunk novels are what? Empty shells of steampunk?

Seriously, if you think steampunk is about aesthetics, you don't know what steampunk really is.  Get the fuck out of the clubs and cosplay shit, and pick up a good steampunk book already.  They were writing good steampunk for 20 years (and calling it that) before the aesthetics part even started.

Quote from: Mistwell;644819So alllll those steampunk novels are what? Empty shells of steampunk?

Seriously, if you think steampunk is about aesthetics, you don't know what steampunk really is.  Get the fuck out of the clubs and cosplay shit, and pick up a good steampunk book already.  They were writing good steampunk for 20 years (and calling it that) before the aesthetics part even started.

You obviously have not read any of my posts in this thread thus far.

And I'm talking about what it takes to make a good RPG work, not a novel. Two very different things. If you don't know that, go school yourself on RPGs then come talk to me. And I'll give you a hint: you wont find me in any of the trashy clubs you frequent.

My impression of Steampunk is that it's all aesthetics, fashion before function, imagery fetishism. Acting out to garner attention and feel clever.

I fabricate my own tools, I repair my own clothes, I write my own code, I'm goth, I'm punk as fuck, I'm DIY as fuck. I think Steampunk is a bunch of kitsch balloon juice. Buncha Burning Man-esque horseshit. Kali Yuga degeneracy

Quote from: Planet Algol;644844My impression of Steampunk is that it's all aesthetics, fashion before function, imagery fetishism. Acting out to garner attention and feel clever.

I fabricate my own tools, I repair my own clothes, I write my own code, I'm goth, I'm punk as fuck, I'm DIY as fuck. I think Steampunk is a bunch of kitsch balloon juice. Buncha Burning Man-esque horseshit. Kali Yuga degeneracy

this from the guy with a "professional wrestler" for an avatar. :D

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794They just don't get punk, and the genre reflects it.  It's actually greatly reduced in potential because it's developed and promoted by such a conformist subculture that has such thin skin.

1000% agreement. Consumerist/tribalist horseshit.

Quote from: The Traveller;644816That's not what I said - the advance of technology upsetting established social orders doesn't neccessitate engaging in colonialism of your own.

Steampunk doesn't necessitate it.  It pretty much precludes it.

QuoteYou're making the mistake I outlined earlier. The Victorian era was repugnant by any rational modern standard, the abuses of what could charitably be called pseudoscience to justify appalling atrocities aren't what steampunk is about.

I know it's not about that.  That's part of why it's bad.  A part of Science Fiction is asking big "What if..." questions, but for the most part they shy away from any political or social questions because the picture is so broad or abstract that they assume that problems in the modern world aren't important, or have been "solved" somehow in order to explore new topics like space travel, et cetera.  

Cyberpunk isn't traditional science fiction because all of its "What if..." elements don't assume that modernity no longer exists/has been solved.  It does have an element of "What if..." in terms of new tech (particularly transhumanism), but a huge part of the central supposition is just an extrapolation of modernity rather than wiping the slate clean or honing in on a narrow perspective that precludes a broader look at the world like most traditional science fiction entails.  

Steampunk does neither really, in that it simply transposes modernity into a recognizable facsimile of the past that either doesn't resemble actual history except on a superficial level; or all of the completely white hat, unambiguous good guys are anachronistic leftists fighting the 'repugnant atrocities of the Victorian era' and generally just sticking it to the Man.

In reality both are true because the setting is almost always a Rule of Cool collage and things are either "backward" and evil or anachronistically "progressive" and good when it's convenient.  There is no fundamental supposition that is actually important to creating the theme or the setting.

QuoteIt's not even about rebellion, it's about science>society.

Apparently except in the case when society is committing repugnant atrocities or generally any character might have views which descend from anything "squicky", which is just about everything that everyone believed prior to 1969.

If the only theme is Science>Society then Steampunk would be capable of creating more characters like Captain Nemo, but then again you'd probably have to be capable of writing characters that are compelling or good and whose views are well thought out and potentially sympathetic that don't necessarily reflect the views of the author or the audience; which is not something that modern writers or their fans seem capable of accomplishing in this genre.  In virtually every way Society>Science in Steampunk, because the "science" is girded by a deterministic historiography much like Whig history, in which scientific and social "progress" are reciprocal causes of each other.

QuoteEven the most rabid molotov cocktail-throwing leftist should be able to play a gentleman scientist with a clean conscience.

Then the most rabid molotov cocktail-throwing leftist should be able to play a medieval knight with a clean conscience while haranguing his peers for worshiping some stupid Sky Wizard, and throwing down his gauntlet for their lack of appropriate trigger warnings and everyone should just be happy with this new model of fantasy fiction and roleplaying.

That makes about as much sense as the Steampunk equivalent where you have a gentleman scientist in ersatz Victorian England that is too radical for the Jacobin Club.  That Steampunk actually looks like that is the problem; and meanwhile an ersatz Victorian Englishman is actually completely out of place.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885I know it's not about that.  That's part of why it's bad.  A part of Science Fiction is asking big "What if..." questions, but for the most part they shy away from any political or social questions because the picture is so broad or abstract that they assume that problems in the modern world aren't important, or have been "solved" somehow in order to explore new topics like space travel, et cetera.  

If you mean most sci-fi isn't dystopian, it's far too broad a parish to say "most". Star Trek human culture for example was relatively poorly developed but then it flipped the entire idea on its head by using sci-fi to explore modern attitudes and ideas. In some versions anyway. A case could even be made for calling Star Wars dystopian and not too far off cyberpunk, and it doesn't get more traditional than that in the common understanding, before the hard sci-fi purists get excited.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885Cyberpunk isn't traditional science fiction because all of its "What if..." elements don't assume that modernity no longer exists/has been solved.  It does have an element of "What if..." in terms of new tech (particularly transhumanism), but a huge part of the central supposition is just an extrapolation of modernity rather than wiping the slate clean or honing in on a narrow perspective that precludes a broader look at the world like most traditional science fiction entails.  

Again I'm not sure what 'traditional' sci-fi you're hearkening back to, but I'd definetely call cyberpunk sci-fi, albeit markedly dystopian. You're creating artificial differentiation here.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885Steampunk does neither really, in that it simply transposes modernity into a recognizable facsimile of the past that either doesn't resemble actual history except on a superficial level;

...but nobody is calling steampunk 'science fiction'...

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885or all of the completely white hat, unambiguous good guys are anachronistic leftists fighting the 'repugnant atrocities of the Victorian era' and generally just sticking it to the Man.

No, the heroes of the steampunk genre tend to be upper crust well to do types or intense upper middle class types, because these were the only people who would have had the time, education, luxury, or funds to do cool steampunky things, with a few exceptions. That's why all the fancy suits and top hats.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885Apparently except in the case when society is committing repugnant atrocities or generally any character might have views which descend from anything "squicky", which is just about everything that everyone believed prior to 1969.

This doesn't even make any sense.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885In virtually every way Society>Science in Steampunk,

Neither the society nor the science in steampunk are realistic. Nobody is trying to claim that they are. The theme running through steampunk is that technology is changing this fakey made up society in ways that the grand poobahs couldn't have predicted nor controlled, which is when you get down to it the exact same theme that runs through cyberpunk.

If you take away the tech you just have a tedious costume party.

Nemo is therefore a good fit for the genre. Sherlock Holmes is also an excellent fit, although he doesn't so much use high tech as his brain, which nonetheless rattles the halls of power.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885Then the most rabid molotov cocktail-throwing leftist should be able to play a medieval knight with a clean conscience while haranguing his peers for worshiping some stupid Sky Wizard

You miss the point - the Victorian era saw the rise of the first strong leftist groups in the Anglosphere, so it's particularly emotive for those who consider themselves natural heirs to the movement. My point is steampunk is so dissocated from reality that they needn't fear. I agree that they should be able to deal with it one way or the other but I'm not really bothered.

Quote from: TristramEvans;644832You obviously have not read any of my posts in this thread thus far.

And I'm talking about what it takes to make a good RPG work, not a novel. Two very different things. If you don't know that, go school yourself on RPGs then come talk to me. And I'll give you a hint: you wont find me in any of the trashy clubs you frequent.

I frequent clubs? Dude, I am a newish dad...I honestly cannot remember the last club I was in.  Maybe a birthday four years ago?

Yes, previously you were arguing the other side, but you abandoned that with your more recent comments about Steampunk being "as much about aesthetics as anything".  One could have used that sentence in reply to one of your previous posts.  It's not my fault you've decided to take both sides of the debate on simultaneously.

Anyway, an RPG doesn't need art to be a good RPG (though I like good art in my RPGs).  A good Streampunk RPG does not require good Steampunk art to be a good Strampunk RPG.  Your point was quite clearly "Steampunk = Aesthetics" this time around, with this personality that you chose to use, and it was a bullshit point.

Quote from: Mistwell;645045I frequent clubs? Dude, I am a newish dad...I honestly cannot remember the last club I was in.  Maybe a birthday four years ago?

Yes, previously you were arguing the other side, but you abandoned that with your more recent comments about Steampunk being "as much about aesthetics as anything".  One could have used that sentence in reply to one of your previous posts.  It's not my fault you've decided to take both sides of the debate on simultaneously.

Anyway, an RPG doesn't need art to be a good RPG (though I like good art in my RPGs).  A good Streampunk RPG does not require good Steampunk art to be a good Strampunk RPG.  Your point was quite clearly "Steampunk = Aesthetics" this time around, with this personality that you chose to use, and it was a bullshit point.

Nope.

An rpg conveys themes and moods via aesthetics. Look at the difference in the views of AD&D vs AD&D 2e, despite the system being 99% compatible. My point was not steampunk = aesthetics. Thats merely a failure on your part to understand the difference in what works for an RPG where being able to evoke and inspire is at least half the battle for new players trying to suss out what a game is about.

Just as a novel is not devoid of aesthetics as you seem to think it is. The quality of prose is judgeed on its ability to convey mood and evoke imagery. This is especially true with a novel trying to evoke a specific genre. The methods that work for a novel, however, do not work as well for an rpg.

And if you don't go to clubs, that makes your previous statement about clubs even more asinine.

So what are the best Steampunk novels in whoever's opinion?

Quote from: CRKrueger;645055So what are the best Steampunk novels in whoever's opinion?

Ones written for that genre or retroactivelly given the term?

Quote from: TristramEvans;645059Ones written for that genre or retroactivelly given the term?

Either. Both.

Quote from: CRKrueger;645060Either. Both.

Well, HG Wells and Jules Verne are the grand-daddies here.

The Difference Engine by Gibson is considered the hallmark of the genre at this point.

I enjoyed Perdido Street Station, though its more of a mix of steampunk and fantasy.

The Steam Man of the Prairies is an oldie but goodie.

The Diamond Age is also quite good.

The Vesuivius Club gets a recommendation from Stephen Fry.

But my favourite of all (which also mixes steamopunk and fantasy of a Doctor Who-ish variety, is Garth Nix's Keys to the Kingdom series.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794Both genres are pervaded with a sense of alienation or men that are naturally loners and follow their own code.  Who for whatever reason don't belong in society.  There is a Nietzschean overtone to the genres in that for whatever reason the protagonist's "God is dead" and they have to make up their own rules, and usually even have a moral certitude in deciding right and wrong regardless of what anyone else might think about that.  They aren't out and out anti-establishment, but they don't put much value on the judgments of authority.

You called?

RPGPundit

Quote from: TristramEvans;643963Well, the term originated in literary circles in the 1980s, coined by JW Jeters. It was a well-known subgenre of science fiction by the early 90s, with Gibson's The Difference Engine usually cited as the work that gave the term widespread acceptance. It was first used in the title of a book in 1995 with DiFillipo's Steampunk Trilogy. GURPs steampunk was written in 2000. Castle Falkenstein and Forgotten furtures predate that, and GURPs Steampunk was a reaction to a huge trend towards Steampunk in gaming at that time, also evinced by the Planescape setting.

Meanwhile, the steampunk as fashion/craft trend is cited as beginning at Burning Man in 2006.

That's actually pretty accurate. 2000 is about when I saw signs of the movement coalescing into something more consistent, and 2006 is about when Abney Park made their transition.

But let's for a moment forget the moniker, and go by the elements that identify Steampunk. As you know we can go all the way back to Verne and Wells if we want, and the 'original' definition included works by Tim Powers and 'gonzo historicals'. So what's the commonality?

Most literary and musical movements have a much more definitive origin and ethos than Steampunk. And the only consistent element is one of aesthetics (as you pointed out), even in literature. So I identified the movement as starting after those elements were sufficiently identified and refined, but I'm reconsidering that now.

Quote from: Mistwell;643975More than one person here is telling you you're unaware of a huge segment of it, and decades that happened prior to your apparent awareness of it.

You mean the person you're angry at for taking the 'other side' of the argument?

There are more people here not only effectively saying that Steampunk is purely about aesthetics, but dismissing its legitimacy because of it.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794There is an undercurrent in literature (and film) that predates cyberpunk,

EXCELLENT essay on Cyberpunk BTW.

Quote from: Mistwell;644819Seriously, if you think steampunk is about aesthetics, you don't know what steampunk really is.

Dude, he's still arguing your side, and he didn't say it was only about aesthetics.

You know what? This argument is stupid. Actually, every argument on this board is stupid, but this one is especially stupid. So if you're ever at Steampunk World's Faire, hit me up. Drinks are on me.

Quote from: CRKrueger;645055So what are the best Steampunk novels in whoever's opinion?

Glad you asked!

Here's some of my favorite Steampunk Novels, according to my own eccentric definition - alternate gonzo history and anachropunk takes on technology (and fantasy, in some cases... I likes me some gaslamp.)

D.M. Cornish's Monster Blood Tattoo (http://www.monsterbloodtattoo.com/) Series.  [Alchemypunk]

Scott Westerfield's Leviathan (http://scottwesterfeld.com/books/leviathan/) Trilogy.  [Straight-up Steampunk]

Gail Carriger's Parasol Protectorate (http://www.gailcarriger.com/).  [Gaslamp Victorian Fantasy]

Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard (http://www.scottlynch.us/books.html) Sequence. [Medieval Alchemypunk]

And let's face it, Gents - Steampunk is hardly a cut-and-dried word.
Maybe the word I made up above - 'Anachropunk' is a better one,
though I have no intention to have bitter arguments about etymology.  :)

Quote from: Brad Elliott;645624Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard (http://www.scottlynch.us/books.html) Sequence.

In no way is that steampunk.

Quote from: The Traveller;645625In no way is that steampunk.

I did say 'in my eccentric definition' - alternate history with another take on technology or fantasy.

The Gentleman Bastard Sequence is another form of 'alchemypunk' - instead of steam, alchemy.

To my mind, 'steampunk' is the overarching term - like 'anime' - and 'alchemypunk' is the subset.

I'm way more interested in building a more thorough set of definitions than telling people they're wrong.

So what other kinds of 'steampunk' are there - dieselpunk, gaslamp fantasy, alchemypunk... what more?

I did like the Oswald Bastable stories by Moorcock, but they are largely the same each book!

Quote from: Brad Elliott;645659I did say 'in my eccentric definition' - alternate history with another take on technology or fantasy.

The Gentleman Bastard Sequence is another form of 'alchemypunk' - instead of steam, alchemy.

You can call the Lord of the Rings steampunk if you like and welcome to it but if you do it in public forums expect to get pulled up on it. The Lies of Locke Lamora and related books are in no way steampunk, even if you squint really hard at the Oliver Twistiness of them.

Gormenghast was steampunk, but it was a Surprise! in the third book (spoilers!)

Quote from: TristramEvans;646195Gormenghast was steampunk, but it was a Surprise! in the third book (spoilers!)

I wouldn't qualify it as steampunk at all.

Quote from: TristramEvans;646195Gormenghast was steampunk, but it was a Surprise! in the third book (spoilers!)

Well the third book did show the world outside Castle Gormenghast (and its immediate surroundings) to be a fairly modern, industrialized place, yes. Wouldn't call it "Steampunk" myself though - do you have good reasons to consider it so (and if so I'd love to hear them, I mean that non-sarcastically actually)?

I mean if anything the world outside Gormenghast seems too advanced for Steampunk. I didn't get a Victorian Age vibe outta it, anyway. A Gilded Age vibe, maybe.