Quote from: The Traveller;644639Steampunk as a literary effort or as an RPG usually has political undertones, some intentional, some not. China Miéville for example has wheeled out numerous steampunk works with a blatantly hard left bent to them, which is more hijacking the genre for his own ends but still.

Steampunk as in the ex-goth types doesn't really have an agenda, it's just fashion like emo kids.

Traveller just nailed it.

Gotta say, I don't generally think "Mieville = Steampunk" - I guess I've drunk the CoolAid and use his own term New Weird, but considering that term covers everything from Mieville to Murakami* it might well be way too big & loose. I mean when I think "Steampunk" I basically think "pseudogoth with a hard-on for Victorian fashion and quite possibly a romantic view of the Victorian Age", to be honest, allthough that's quite possibly a bit unfair as I'm no expert on the issue.

*=lots of his works - maybe even most of them - do have "weirdness" in them, like "guy who can talk to cats", "talking sheepman" etc. and at least one of his works - Hardboiled Wonderland and the World's End - is pretty pure sf (or science fantasy maybe depending on POV but I'd say sf). Oh and much recommended. Certainly nothing Steampunk-y about his works at all, mind.

Quote from: Rincewind1;644636Just because the agenda is to make funny hats & goggles rather than free pandas or fight for freedom of Vietnamese burglars, doesn't make it less of a movement.

It's not a political movement.

I hate it.

Jim Butcher just announced he's doing a new Steampunk series.

The problem I've had with steampunk RPGs for the most part is that Steampunk is as much about aesthetics as anything, so to really capture that mood an RPG book needs to be gorgeous. The art is going to be really important. And most steampunk games I've seen recently just can't manage that, wether its the half-hearted "anime" steampunk doodles or just plain mediocre art.

Quote from: Mistwell;643825As for the "punk" part of the word, I don't think it's a joke or a misnomer.  As this excellent article states:

"The "punk" designation of any movement refers to its anti-establishment, counter-cultural leanings. Steampunk is unique in that the culture it rebels against is one of laziness, selfishness, disrespect and a low-minded resentment towards anything exceptional.  Thus, in order to be revolutionary, Steampunk returns to an older philosophy of bearing and personal excellence; of class and attention to detail; of mankind's inherent greatness and that siren which calls us to ascend, progress, and advance beyond the limitations of nature."

Frankly I think that the quoted portion here is bullshit.  I don't read any of that in any so-called Steampunk.  These are obviously just platitudes they've plastered on top of their boringly mainstream political views.

The punk portion of Steampunk is definitely just a meaningless appendage because of William Gibson; and the book in question reads absolutely nothing like a Cyberpunk novel.

I think that Steampunk is probably ideal for "punk" elements in reality, but almost none of the fans of the genre are anything other than college campus conformists who don't like punks because they often say unforgivably rude things and don't like to follow the laws put in place by the hurt feelings police.

There is an undercurrent in literature (and film) that predates cyberpunk, and you can read it in westerns and noir very directly which both directly predate cyberpunk and inform it.  Both genres are pervaded with a sense of alienation or men that are naturally loners and follow their own code.  Who for whatever reason don't belong in society.  There is a Nietzschean overtone to the genres in that for whatever reason the protagonist's "God is dead" and they have to make up their own rules, and usually even have a moral certitude in deciding right and wrong regardless of what anyone else might think about that.  They aren't out and out anti-establishment, but they don't put much value on the judgments of authority.

Cyberpunk takes things to it's logical conclusion, in that God is dead, the state is dead, democracy is dead, philosophy is dead, and anything that could possibly hold communitarian or populist society together has completely spiraled out of bounds.  

In some sense in the way that Elric is a subversion of Conan the Cyberpunk protagonists is a subversion of the Noir PI or Western outlaw with a heart of gold.  The Cyberpunk protagonists has moral certitude just like the protagonists of his predecessor genres, except that moral certitude isn't something that the audience can necessarily agree with (he's a punk).  We are really only on his side because it doesn't matter that he's a self-righteous cunt, because there is no 'redemption' through conformity in societies 'norms', or society is now so massive or degenerate that there is no 'norm' to speak of.  He's attempting to carve a new world out of the remains of the old (and probably failing).  Unlike the Western outlaw who lives on the frontier, the Cyberpunk punk is attempting to turn civilization into a frontier, because it either doesn't actually really work as a civilization anymore, or he just doesn't want it to because it presents itself as a bulwark against him acting out his own desires.

There's nothing remotely like any of that in Steampunk from my reading, which isn't Western, Noir-ish, Cyberpunk, or Nietzschean at all.

The Traveller has made the most compelling argument on how Steampunk is punk, but I think that's just an argument on how it could be punk rather than how any steampunk actually reads.  A character that wanted to use technology to carve a new world out of Africa or the Americas based on his sole vision would almost definitely be a Steampunk villain.  

Captain Nemo is the closest thing to a Cyberpunk character in a Steampunk setting, and that really only works because he's an Indian during the British Raj, which gives him something to actually rebel against in both the British and his own people due to their collaboration and apathy.  He's consciously not a savior of India and his war is a private one.  Even now though, his 'anti-Imperialism' would be read as some radical chic progressivism, which is pretty much what Steampunk resembles politically already (it's the 19th century but racism, sexism, classism, nationalism or any form of exclusion are all bad mkay; which means Captain Nemo is out anyway because he's certainly not a kumbaya figure trumpeting the Anglophone Enlightenment).

See, the thing is radicals from the 17th century onward won out basically and were firmly entrenched by the Enlightenment era portrayed in most Steampunk settings.  They created the modern world, so you're left with Steampunk as Radicals for the Establishment, which is basically what the radical chic is today anyway, and the white faction of that clique is derived from the same milieu as the bulk of steampunk fans.  

They just don't get punk, and the genre reflects it.  It's actually greatly reduced in potential because it's developed and promoted by such a conformist subculture that has such thin skin.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794The Traveller has made the most compelling argument on how Steampunk is punk, but I think that's just an argument on how it could be punk rather than how any steampunk actually reads.  A character that wanted to use technology to carve a new world out of Africa or the Americas based on his sole vision would almost definitely be a Steampunk villain.  

That's not what I said - the advance of technology upsetting established social orders doesn't neccessitate engaging in colonialism of your own.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794Captain Nemo is the closest thing to a Cyberpunk character in a Steampunk setting, and that really only works because he's an Indian during the British Raj, which gives him something to actually rebel against in both the British and his own people due to their collaboration and apathy.  He's consciously not a savior of India and his war is a private one.  Even now though, his 'anti-Imperialism' would be read as some radical chic progressivism, which is pretty much what Steampunk resembles politically already (it's the 19th century but racism, sexism, classism, nationalism or any form of exclusion are all bad mkay; which means Captain Nemo is out anyway because he's certainly not a kumbaya figure trumpeting the Anglophone Enlightenment).

You're making the mistake I outlined earlier. The Victorian era was repugnant by any rational modern standard, the abuses of what could charitably be called pseudoscience to justify appalling atrocities aren't what steampunk is about. It's not even about rebellion, it's about science>society. Even the most rabid molotov cocktail-throwing leftist should be able to play a gentleman scientist with a clean conscience.

Quote from: TristramEvans;644785The problem I've had with steampunk RPGs for the most part is that Steampunk is as much about aesthetics as anything

So alllll those steampunk novels are what? Empty shells of steampunk?

Seriously, if you think steampunk is about aesthetics, you don't know what steampunk really is.  Get the fuck out of the clubs and cosplay shit, and pick up a good steampunk book already.  They were writing good steampunk for 20 years (and calling it that) before the aesthetics part even started.

Quote from: Mistwell;644819So alllll those steampunk novels are what? Empty shells of steampunk?

Seriously, if you think steampunk is about aesthetics, you don't know what steampunk really is.  Get the fuck out of the clubs and cosplay shit, and pick up a good steampunk book already.  They were writing good steampunk for 20 years (and calling it that) before the aesthetics part even started.

You obviously have not read any of my posts in this thread thus far.

And I'm talking about what it takes to make a good RPG work, not a novel. Two very different things. If you don't know that, go school yourself on RPGs then come talk to me. And I'll give you a hint: you wont find me in any of the trashy clubs you frequent.

My impression of Steampunk is that it's all aesthetics, fashion before function, imagery fetishism. Acting out to garner attention and feel clever.

I fabricate my own tools, I repair my own clothes, I write my own code, I'm goth, I'm punk as fuck, I'm DIY as fuck. I think Steampunk is a bunch of kitsch balloon juice. Buncha Burning Man-esque horseshit. Kali Yuga degeneracy

Quote from: Planet Algol;644844My impression of Steampunk is that it's all aesthetics, fashion before function, imagery fetishism. Acting out to garner attention and feel clever.

I fabricate my own tools, I repair my own clothes, I write my own code, I'm goth, I'm punk as fuck, I'm DIY as fuck. I think Steampunk is a bunch of kitsch balloon juice. Buncha Burning Man-esque horseshit. Kali Yuga degeneracy

this from the guy with a "professional wrestler" for an avatar.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794They just don't get punk, and the genre reflects it.  It's actually greatly reduced in potential because it's developed and promoted by such a conformist subculture that has such thin skin.

1000% agreement. Consumerist/tribalist horseshit.

Quote from: The Traveller;644816That's not what I said - the advance of technology upsetting established social orders doesn't neccessitate engaging in colonialism of your own.

Steampunk doesn't necessitate it.  It pretty much precludes it.

QuoteYou're making the mistake I outlined earlier. The Victorian era was repugnant by any rational modern standard, the abuses of what could charitably be called pseudoscience to justify appalling atrocities aren't what steampunk is about.

I know it's not about that.  That's part of why it's bad.  A part of Science Fiction is asking big "What if..." questions, but for the most part they shy away from any political or social questions because the picture is so broad or abstract that they assume that problems in the modern world aren't important, or have been "solved" somehow in order to explore new topics like space travel, et cetera.  

Cyberpunk isn't traditional science fiction because all of its "What if..." elements don't assume that modernity no longer exists/has been solved.  It does have an element of "What if..." in terms of new tech (particularly transhumanism), but a huge part of the central supposition is just an extrapolation of modernity rather than wiping the slate clean or honing in on a narrow perspective that precludes a broader look at the world like most traditional science fiction entails.  

Steampunk does neither really, in that it simply transposes modernity into a recognizable facsimile of the past that either doesn't resemble actual history except on a superficial level; or all of the completely white hat, unambiguous good guys are anachronistic leftists fighting the 'repugnant atrocities of the Victorian era' and generally just sticking it to the Man.

In reality both are true because the setting is almost always a Rule of Cool collage and things are either "backward" and evil or anachronistically "progressive" and good when it's convenient.  There is no fundamental supposition that is actually important to creating the theme or the setting.

QuoteIt's not even about rebellion, it's about science>society.

Apparently except in the case when society is committing repugnant atrocities or generally any character might have views which descend from anything "squicky", which is just about everything that everyone believed prior to 1969.

If the only theme is Science>Society then Steampunk would be capable of creating more characters like Captain Nemo, but then again you'd probably have to be capable of writing characters that are compelling or good and whose views are well thought out and potentially sympathetic that don't necessarily reflect the views of the author or the audience; which is not something that modern writers or their fans seem capable of accomplishing in this genre.  In virtually every way Society>Science in Steampunk, because the "science" is girded by a deterministic historiography much like Whig history, in which scientific and social "progress" are reciprocal causes of each other.

QuoteEven the most rabid molotov cocktail-throwing leftist should be able to play a gentleman scientist with a clean conscience.

Then the most rabid molotov cocktail-throwing leftist should be able to play a medieval knight with a clean conscience while haranguing his peers for worshiping some stupid Sky Wizard, and throwing down his gauntlet for their lack of appropriate trigger warnings and everyone should just be happy with this new model of fantasy fiction and roleplaying.

That makes about as much sense as the Steampunk equivalent where you have a gentleman scientist in ersatz Victorian England that is too radical for the Jacobin Club.  That Steampunk actually looks like that is the problem; and meanwhile an ersatz Victorian Englishman is actually completely out of place.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885I know it's not about that.  That's part of why it's bad.  A part of Science Fiction is asking big "What if..." questions, but for the most part they shy away from any political or social questions because the picture is so broad or abstract that they assume that problems in the modern world aren't important, or have been "solved" somehow in order to explore new topics like space travel, et cetera.  

If you mean most sci-fi isn't dystopian, it's far too broad a parish to say "most". Star Trek human culture for example was relatively poorly developed but then it flipped the entire idea on its head by using sci-fi to explore modern attitudes and ideas. In some versions anyway. A case could even be made for calling Star Wars dystopian and not too far off cyberpunk, and it doesn't get more traditional than that in the common understanding, before the hard sci-fi purists get excited.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885Cyberpunk isn't traditional science fiction because all of its "What if..." elements don't assume that modernity no longer exists/has been solved.  It does have an element of "What if..." in terms of new tech (particularly transhumanism), but a huge part of the central supposition is just an extrapolation of modernity rather than wiping the slate clean or honing in on a narrow perspective that precludes a broader look at the world like most traditional science fiction entails.  

Again I'm not sure what 'traditional' sci-fi you're hearkening back to, but I'd definetely call cyberpunk sci-fi, albeit markedly dystopian. You're creating artificial differentiation here.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885Steampunk does neither really, in that it simply transposes modernity into a recognizable facsimile of the past that either doesn't resemble actual history except on a superficial level;

...but nobody is calling steampunk 'science fiction'...

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885or all of the completely white hat, unambiguous good guys are anachronistic leftists fighting the 'repugnant atrocities of the Victorian era' and generally just sticking it to the Man.

No, the heroes of the steampunk genre tend to be upper crust well to do types or intense upper middle class types, because these were the only people who would have had the time, education, luxury, or funds to do cool steampunky things, with a few exceptions. That's why all the fancy suits and top hats.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885Apparently except in the case when society is committing repugnant atrocities or generally any character might have views which descend from anything "squicky", which is just about everything that everyone believed prior to 1969.

This doesn't even make any sense.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885In virtually every way Society>Science in Steampunk,

Neither the society nor the science in steampunk are realistic. Nobody is trying to claim that they are. The theme running through steampunk is that technology is changing this fakey made up society in ways that the grand poobahs couldn't have predicted nor controlled, which is when you get down to it the exact same theme that runs through cyberpunk.

If you take away the tech you just have a tedious costume party.

Nemo is therefore a good fit for the genre. Sherlock Holmes is also an excellent fit, although he doesn't so much use high tech as his brain, which nonetheless rattles the halls of power.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644885Then the most rabid molotov cocktail-throwing leftist should be able to play a medieval knight with a clean conscience while haranguing his peers for worshiping some stupid Sky Wizard

You miss the point - the Victorian era saw the rise of the first strong leftist groups in the Anglosphere, so it's particularly emotive for those who consider themselves natural heirs to the movement. My point is steampunk is so dissocated from reality that they needn't fear. I agree that they should be able to deal with it one way or the other but I'm not really bothered.

Quote from: TristramEvans;644832You obviously have not read any of my posts in this thread thus far.

And I'm talking about what it takes to make a good RPG work, not a novel. Two very different things. If you don't know that, go school yourself on RPGs then come talk to me. And I'll give you a hint: you wont find me in any of the trashy clubs you frequent.

I frequent clubs? Dude, I am a newish dad...I honestly cannot remember the last club I was in.  Maybe a birthday four years ago?

Yes, previously you were arguing the other side, but you abandoned that with your more recent comments about Steampunk being "as much about aesthetics as anything".  One could have used that sentence in reply to one of your previous posts.  It's not my fault you've decided to take both sides of the debate on simultaneously.

Anyway, an RPG doesn't need art to be a good RPG (though I like good art in my RPGs).  A good Streampunk RPG does not require good Steampunk art to be a good Strampunk RPG.  Your point was quite clearly "Steampunk = Aesthetics" this time around, with this personality that you chose to use, and it was a bullshit point.