In response to another thread's mention of 19th century attitudes to science, I thought I would open this up for general conversation.
Has modern steampunk distorted the actual views and knowledge of the 19th century?
I will open and say it has. Not every scientific endeavor tried to implement a modern concept with steam. For example, Hollerith's Tabulating machine was always electrical in nature from its conception.
Quote from: BillDowns;607820Has modern steampunk distorted the actual views and knowledge of the 19th century?
Of course.
That's a bit like asking "Does Warhammer distort the actual history of the renaissance?"
I think it only distorts the view of ignorant people who think that reading fiction in an RPG book equates to actual knowledge. I think a few people on this board are guilty of this.
I like my Warhammer as you know, but I never once thought to conflate it with my knowledge of the Renaissance in the sense that I confused one for the other. I had to do too many papers in school for that.
I like my Warmachine, but never once thought that they could build giant robots with steam. That is, without magic, which no matter what you believe about Crowley it just wasn't around.
Quote from: Blackhand;607827I think it only distorts the view of ignorant people who think that reading fiction in an RPG book equates to actual knowledge.
Exactly. Anything that is a fantasy based on or inspired by a real thing is always already a distortion of it by virtue of it being fictional.
Quote from: BillDowns;607820I will open and say it has. Not every scientific endeavor tried to implement a modern concept with steam. For example, Hollerith's Tabulating machine was always electrical in nature from its conception.
Beats me why (http://mutteringsfromtheoubliette.blogspot.ie/2012/04/steampunk-z-e-is-for-electricity.html) you (http://steampunkscholar.blogspot.ie/2009/06/steampunk-pastiche-elements.html) think (http://steampunk-pics.com/steampunk.jpg) steampunk doesn't do electricity. Its not even worth the effort to make a snarky comment here.
Stormpunk (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/01/warmachine-news-cygnar-storm-strider.html)?
I play Cygnar, and half the units are based on electricity. I haven't gotten the new Iron Kingdoms RPG yet but I'm sure it's reflected therein.
Quote from: The Traveller;607839Beats me why (http://mutteringsfromtheoubliette.blogspot.ie/2012/04/steampunk-z-e-is-for-electricity.html) you (http://steampunkscholar.blogspot.ie/2009/06/steampunk-pastiche-elements.html) think (http://steampunk-pics.com/steampunk.jpg) steampunk doesn't do electricity. Its not even worth the effort to make a snarky comment here.
Because, as a pastiche, a lot of folks stylistically associate electricity with people like Tesla and the Art Deco/Electropunk vibe.
Also, by the 20s and Bauhaus, Victorian entitlement and sensibilities were de passe.
Most steampunk fans I run into are more about being well dressed Victorian/Edwardian era nobility and noveau riche with servants instead of being plucky middle class adventurers or Ellis island immigrants.
I want to pin down the scope of your question. When you ask
QuoteHas modern steampunk distorted the actual views and knowledge of the 19th century?
are you referring to society as a whole, gamers, or steampunk culture enthusiasts whether or not they are gamers?
My cynical reply to all three would be, "what actual views and knowledge?"
Outside of that, I've seen steampunk and retrofuturist aesthetics crop up in a number of places where it can reach a mass audience, but I think its mostly confined to geek culture.
That said, I think the steampunk ethos as it currently stands is a distortion of itself. If you choose to view "The Difference Engine" as a seminal work of steampunk, then the modern movement has drifted very far away from serious thought about "What happens if Victorian culture meets the Information Age?". The most interesting aspect of the steampunk movement to me was the modern corollary to that original question, "How can we maintain a technological culture in the absence of cheap energy?" Steampunk has largely become nothing more than dress up and fantasy.
Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;607853Because, as a pastiche, a lot of folks stylistically associate electricity with people like Tesla and the Art Deco/Electropunk vibe.
I see the value of an arts degree is once again making itself known (ahh there's that snark). You are aware that they sell steampunk lightning gun toys, right? No mad scientist would be caught trying to take over the world without one. Electricity is deeply associated with steampunk, from Jacob's ladders to Frankenstein. Great how you managed to somehow drag social class into it once again though.
Quote from: Chogokin;607856I want to pin down the scope of your question. When you ask
are you referring to society as a whole, gamers, or steampunk culture enthusiasts whether or not they are gamers?
My cynical reply to all three would be, "what actual views and knowledge?"
Outside of that, I've seen steampunk and retrofuturist aesthetics crop up in a number of places where it can reach a mass audience, but I think its mostly confined to geek culture.
That said, I think the steampunk ethos as it currently stands is a distortion of itself. If you choose to view "The Difference Engine" as a seminal work of steampunk, then the modern movement has drifted very far away from serious thought about "What happens if Victorian culture meets the Information Age?". The most interesting aspect of the steampunk movement to me was the modern corollary to that original question, "How can we maintain a technological culture in the absence of cheap energy?" Steampunk has largely become nothing more than dress up and fantasy.
but you are missing an essential element of steampunk, corsetts.
One of the interesting things about steampunk is it takes a geeky nerd thing and actually makes it appealing to women becuase of the cross over between Burlesque and steampunk. Now the goth factor has a similar effect with Vampire and Vampire larps but they were always larps or as we like to call it down my way lets pretend.
Burlesque doesn't have the nerdish connotation of Larps and so you can pop to a local burlesque show in your Pith helmet and jet pack and fit right in.
few movements have mixed RPGs, Cosplay and chubby girls that want to get their boobs out in quite the same heady mix.
Quote from: The Traveller;607859I see the value of an arts degree is once again making itself known (ahh there's that snark). You are aware that they sell steampunk lightning gun toys, right? No mad scientist would be caught trying to take over the world without one. Electricity is deeply associated with steampunk, from Jacob's ladders to Frankenstein. Great how you managed to somehow drag social class into it once again though.
Well, because that's how it's manifested to my eyes, as in regards the whole thing about electricity, with my nerd and fandom experiences. I have yet to see a Steampunk cosplayer doing, for example, a trade unionist or John Henry. In the last Kerberos Club game I played, everyone was a born aristocrat, except for my PC (who was the historical Abraham Lincoln!) who earned his way into the upper class and was considered a country bumpkin from the colonies in 1830s Britain.
But, your point is correct in that electricity is an important
detail for Steampunk, as opposed to Electropunk/Art Deco/Bauhaus,where it's a central conceit. Tesla I think straddles the line.
Another detail I've noticed is the idea that Victorian era women were somehow Riot Grrls who donned overalls and brass goggles and worked the steam cogs at the central difference engine instead of treated like chattel, like they had been for the previous oh...FOREVER.
I think it's terrible that they were, but lending the idea that women weren't struggling for equality at the time is awful. Kinda like how Deadlands has a Civil War with a Confederation and stars & bars battleflag and all that yet it wasn't about slavery because that's icky - it's trying to erase history for happy happy joy joy fun and games.
I blame Firefly but then I can't stand Joss Whedon and I'll gladly pin anything bad on him, so you should probably disregard that.
As is usual, people take the parts they like and discard the rest. I can only appeal to folks who like aspects of Steampunk (cool fashions, jaunty adventurer, entreprenuerial pioneer) to learn more about that period of history so that it can be objectively cool as opposed to a nerd hipsterism (which unfortunately a lot of steampunk in fandom is.)
Maybe I should do that cosplay as a trade unionist, Ellis Island person who goes onto greatness, or something that's both historically accurate and entertaining.
Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;607864I have yet to see a Steampunk cosplayer doing, for example, a trade unionist or John Henry. In the last Kerberos Club game I played, everyone was a born aristocrat, except for my PC (who was the historical Abraham Lincoln!)
That's just another manifestation of the romanticisation of history. In fantasy, most people play knights, priests and scholars. Very few play peasants, serfs or so on.
Amusingly, when people have 'past life memories' they are almost universally of being members of the ruling class, despite the fact most people lived harsh, drudge based existences!
So steampunk games aren't full of suffragettes with lightning guns? I thought they were part of the 'punk' in steampunk.
How did people start assuming Frankenstein's monster was born of electricity? I don't recall any mention of it in the book.
Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;607938Maybe I should do that cosplay as a trade unionist, Ellis Island person who goes onto greatness, or something that's both historically accurate and entertaining.
Ha, right as if you'd ever get invited to parties. Its a lonely life, being a tedious one-track-minded communist entryist. Seriously take that crap to the international worker or wherever, this is a gaming board.
Quote from: Simlasa;607963How did people start assuming Frankenstein's monster was born of electricity? I don't recall any mention of it in the book.
There is mention of Galvinism in the book. Shelley was quite interested in that just prior to writing the seed of
Frankenstein in 1816.
Quote from: The Traveller;607964Ha, right as if you'd ever get invited to parties. Its a lonely life, being a tedious one-track-minded communist entryist. Seriously take that crap to the international worker or wherever, this is a gaming board.
No, let's continue the discussion. I think it's something you need more engagement on. If not, just ignore my content.
It's media, it's stuff, it's what I game at my table, it's important.
CB
I think the steampunk idiocy may have distorted some NERDS' views of real history, sure. But a great deal of nerds are very good at assuming they must know things just because they're nerds, as if its some kind of natural-born right that they must be smart, and don't actually have to read or learn or study anything seriously. Just any stupid shit that comes out of their mouth, they figure is probably true.
Seriously, the only thing worse than someone with no knowledge is someone with just a little bit of knowledge and a total lack of understanding of the vast abyss of things he doesn't actually know.
RPGPundit
Quote from: misterguignol;607978There is mention of Galvinism in the book. Shelley was quite interested in that just prior to writing the seed of Frankenstein in 1816.
There's also Frankenstein's inspiration by the lightning hitting a tree. Still, it's not done in some remote castle in the midst of a lightning storm, it's in an apartment in a house in a city... there's no mention of electricity being directly involved in the process (just some cryptic references to a secret that will not be named)... and the whole lab seems relatively tiny. I was surprised by that, having seen the various movies that all feature huge sparking apparatus in enormous chambers.
Also that the building of the creature is not just a hand sewn to arm sewn to torso with heavy thread... the description in the book seemed more intricate... knitting new muscles and nerves and such from fundamental tissues. He's not just reanimating a corpse, he's building a new form from scratch. I was also struck by the explanation that the creature is a giant because he had no way to perform such techniques on a suitably small scale to keep it down to human-sized... and no skill (or consideration?) in making it appear like anything but a nightmarish monster.
Sorry, I love that book and hope someday someone might make a movie that's a bit more true to it.
I'm happy to have sparky flesh golems in a steampunk game.
I might have liked our Deadlands games more if there'd been more of that sort of thing, and more political/moral quandries... vs. whatever the hell it was we were playing.
Quote from: Simlasa;608292Sorry, I love that book and hope someday someone might make a movie that's a bit more true to it.
You and me both, friend. (I teach the novel at least once a year.)
Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;608149I think it's something you need more engagement on.
You know nothing about me, and would probably be quite surprised at the very real (read:not slacktivism on the internet) measures I've been involved with in order to help deal with serious social issues, considerably beyond "giving at the office". In fact in different situations you'd have a lot of time for someone like me.
I choose not to bring it up because this isn't a suitable forum, as they say the problem with zealots is they will change neither their minds nor the topic. Or perhaps more appropriate in this case would be that term for people who can't differentiate between reality and fantasy, I forget was that psychotic or schizophrenic.
People come here to talk about games, so in the absence of overt neo-nazi fetishism or clear discussions about where reality and fantasy cross over, change the record. This pious "missionary among the savages" act was old and badly misplaced before you wheeled it out in the first place.