How many stats do you consider necessary to make a good, solid, believable 'paper man'?
I've always thought gurps had too few stats, but they have gradually added in sub stats and modifiers that are effectively psuedo stats that might as well be stats, but apparently SOMEONE at sjg is utterly married to the 4 stat idea and won't change it.
As for me, I think 9 stats is good. for example, I like having dexterity and agility as separate stats because it's very easy to find people that can sit down at a desk or bench and preform great feats of manual dexterity, but at the same times are so clumsy that they risk their lives crossing a street. Also you can find people with incredibly agility when it comes to running, jumping, etc, but who can't thread a needle to save their souls
So dex and agi should be seperate stats. Likewise Intelligence and Wits should be different as there are lost of people who are academic wizards, but can't come up with a quick witty line for love or money, whereas a lot of these so called "witty' people who always have a good crack at hand would probably have a hard time figuring out what the square root of 4 is.
Wisdom is another issue that might deserve it's own stat as intelligent and witty people can often be fools or act foolishly, whereas some dimwits can be wise.
So Int and Wits should be sperate stats as one is about intellectual ability while the other is more speed than anything else. Wisdom is it's own area separate from both.
For me, if I were doing as game I think I'd have the following stats:
Int, Wits, Wisdom, Dex, Agi, Str, End, Health.
Senses would be their own catagory with each one having it's own score.
So basically I'd go with 8 stats, and senses as it's own catagory. That's how I feel, how many stats do you like in a game? BTW, what game has the MOST stats and which one has the LEAST stats?
In the new game I'm designing (with a good number of others, of course) the abilities run as follows:
Reflex
Coordination
Strength
Toughness
Luck
Luck might or might not get scrapped. "Spirit" has also been put forward. We haven't done mental stats thus far. Just haven't needed them.
I'd say it depends on what kind of game I'm trying to play.
If I'm going for a rules-light, fast, probably cinematic game I'd go with anywhere from 0 (FATE) to 6 (True20).
For something more detailed, I'd say 5+
I think anything in the double digits is ridiculous, unless they're derived stats.
-O
Quote from: beejazzIn the new game I'm designing (with a good number of others, of course) the abilities run as follows:
Reflex
Coordination
Strength
Toughness
Luck
Luck might or might not get scrapped. "Spirit" has also been put forward. We haven't done mental stats thus far. Just haven't needed them.
I hate Luck statistics, unless it's a vital part of the game. I mean by that, that the gameworld is constructed with "divine favor," "fortune," or whatever being doled out unequally among the populace. Even then, it would often be better handled by something that's not a characteristic - in D&D terms, a feat or class ability. I can't see someone improving a luck attribute down the road.
In most cases, I think luck is adequately handled by gameplay. The lucky characters are the ones whose players have the better die rolls. :)
-O
Quote from: obrynI hate Luck statistics, unless it's a vital part of the game. I mean by that, that the gameworld is constructed with "divine favor," "fortune," or whatever being doled out unequally among the populace. Even then, it would often be better handled by something that's not a characteristic - in D&D terms, a feat or class ability. I can't see someone improving a luck attribute down the road.
In most cases, I think luck is adequately handled by gameplay. The lucky characters are the ones whose players have the better die rolls. :)
-O
Well said. I don't know if there's a right number of attributes, but any game that has a "Luck" attribute has one too many.
Well, the Mekton zeta system used luck, and it was an Ok system, nothing great but it didn't suck either.
I think that Sean Punch and Dave Pulver got it right when they made luck something you buy with character points in gurps.
Trollbabe has one stat, called the Number.
HeroQuest has no universal set of defining stats at all. Everything on the character sheet is an Ability and can, in principle, be used like every other Ability, and every character will have a different set of Abilities.
For me, 7-9.
My baseline "ideal setup" that I used in my Sci-Fi homebrew had 8 (incidentally, A|State has an almost identical setup.)
Agility
Dexterity
Endurance
Strength
Charm
Perception
Reason
Willpower
I see that increasingly stength is becoming less and less useful in modern games as tracking encumbrance is (rightly) becoming regarded as a PITA. As such I think in many modern games, one could afford to roll stength and endurance into "physique".
I split out Agility and Dexterity, as it seems to me that one stat that represents both invariably becomes a super stat (unless you make it pricier, which is a solution that doesn't sit well with me.)
Depending on the cosmology and feel of the game, I may add a "luck" of "psyche" statistic.
Another setup I am fond of it the "telescoping statistics" setup. Basically, you start with 4 base statistics (which I consider the BARE minimum -- TriStat drives me nuts. Think tri-stat, but instead of a single body statistic, there is a physique and a deftness statistic), but each can be split into 3 sub-statistics for more fine-tuned definition. This is the setup I usually use when defining characters for FUDGE.
My preferred system has, technically speaking, 27 stats. However, said stats are, if you would, tiered.
You start with the 3 Traits: Mental, Physical, and Spiritual.
Each trait has two sub-traits, or Categories:
*Mental: Mnemonic and Reasoning.
*Physical: Muscular and Neural.
*Spiritual: Metaphysical and Psychic.
Each Category has 3 Attributes: Capacity, Power, and Speed. For example, under Mental-Reasoning Capacity would indicate how good the character could be if he applied himself, Power is how good he is at reasoning, while Speed measures how fast he can figure things out.
Each Attribute has it's own rating. The three Attributes under a Category add up to the Category's rating, and the two Categories in a Trait add together to give the Trait's rating. A Trait's rating can be as high as 120 depending on initial dice rolls.
Traits, Categories, and Attributes come into play depending on what's happening. For instance, the Physical Trait determines walking speed. The Mental Trait for a Dweomercrafting character determines if Full Practitioner status (Mage) is even possible, while Mental-Mnemonic-Power gives the character's chance of even being a Mage.
So saying that Dangerous Journeys has 27 stats does not begin to give one the full picture.
I think around six, maybe one dealing with physical might and brawn, one with how healthy you are, one with how agile and nimble you are, one maybe about how smart you are, one about how experienced and sagacious you are and one dealing with how charming you are.
I kid, I don't have a fixed view, enough for the game. More than eight tops and my eyes start to glaze over, less than three and I expect a good reason.
None is also good, I have a soft spot for systems that don't have stats at all like Heroquest or Over the Edge.
I like 10 or 12.
Yeesh. I played Mythus for a year or so back in high school (I had a higher tolerance for crazy amounts of detail back then), but even then 27 stats seemed like a gigantic pain. Many of them didn't seem to have any game use whatsoever.
-O
I don't really care about the stats so long as everyone remembers:
CHARISMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PHYSICAL BEAUTY
It irks me no end when someone mistakes "personability," "likeablity" and "force of personality" with physical beauty. :rolleyes:
Personally, I prefer fewer attributes and more skills. 5-6 attributes with a couple of derived stats that are necessary to the function of the mechanic suits me just fine.
In fact, I rather like the combining of "endurance" and "strength" because they are so closely related and raising/lowering one without raising/lowering the other makes very little sense in my mind.
I don't mind the idea that Dexterity and Agility are combined into a single attribute, in fact, I'd lump Speed in there, too. If you want to specifically state that the character is better at one thing than another, then that's where you use an Edge or a Flaw to determine that. And none of them (Dex, Agl or Spd) should be associated with missile weapons (bows, arrows, firearms, etc.)
What really irks me, however, is the combination of Perceptiveness and Intelligence. How good I am at looking around the room and noticing the finite movements of someone about to draw their weapon has NOTHING to do with how fast I can calculate a square root, recall the exact chemical formula for mustard gas nor how much of Shakespeare's Macbeth I can recall on the fly.
I can see lumping hand-eye coordination into Perceptiveness. That makes a lot of sense. Thus, I would see this attribute controlling actions that require hitting a target at distance: Pistols, Throwing, Archery, etc. (Although I've heard a strong argument for using Strength/Endurance for the firing of a bow, but then we get into the arguement of direct vs indirect fire for using Archery and I prefer to keep it as simple as possible.)
I've come to the conclusion that complexity in mechanic is directly associated with bogged down combats that take hours to resolve while the story (and most of the players) end up waiting and waiting and waiting...
Keep it simple, yet detailed enough to make sense (thus 1-3 attributes doesn't make much sense to me).
GURPS is okay with four, because they have a lot of derived attributes, and let's face it, Health versus Hits can really be called another attribute.
Shadowrun was pretty good, though it combined Intelligence and Perception, which was BAD. I rather liked that the derived attributed Reflexes was based upon how perceptive and quick the character was instead of just a raw, physical attribute.
And, finally, I like systems that are not designed with one type of character in mind, with a plethora of "dump stats."
In my ideal system, you would have:
Physical Prowess (Strength and Endurance)
Reflexes (Dex, Agility and Speed)
Perceptiveness
Intelligence
Personability
Willpower
Essentially, two stats for each of the major playing arenas: Physical, Mental and Social.
(Additional stats may exist for such things as magic, psionics, super powers, etc. which should not be based upon the common attributes that everyone shares.)
My Iridium System has 11.
Physical
Strength
Dexterity
Agility
Constitution
Appearance
Mental
Intelligence
Wisdom
Will
Spiritual
Piety
Charisma
Luck
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltMy Iridium System has 11.
Physical
Strength
Dexterity
Agility
Constitution
Appearance
Mental
Intelligence
Wisdom
Will
Spiritual
Piety
Charisma
Luck
Bill
How exactly is the "Bill" stat used? I've never seen that one before.
Quote from: VellorianHow exactly is the "Bill" stat used? I've never seen that one before.
Very carefully. It is unstable and varies with the amount of coffee the character has.
Bill: 20
That Noumenon (which is under discussion over at RPGnet right now) (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=285218) apparently has nine of them: Awareness, Violence, Activity, Wisdom, Personality, Chitin, Metamorphosis, Communion, and Rapport.
But say what you will, renaming the hit points or wound levels in your game "Salubrity" might be going a bit too far.
Noumenon... This takes the cake as the weirdest thing I've seen all week.
Mark me down as uninterested.
-O
Quote from: obrynYeesh. I played Mythus for a year or so back in high school (I had a higher tolerance for crazy amounts of detail back then), but even then 27 stats seemed like a gigantic pain. Many of them didn't seem to have any game use whatsoever.
-O
Didn't get much into the rules, did you? :)
Each stat has its purpose. I should know, I was the official rules lawyer for the game. For example, skill in melee combat got the average of Physical Muscular-Capacity and Physical-Neural-Capacity as a bonus. Magic resistance was 0.1 Physical Trait. But you do have a point about the detail. The game as a whole goes into great detail. An easier entry when you're a highschool kid is
Mythus Prime, which has but 3 stats.
Gary's unique take on exposition doesn't help matters any. Especially when you're trying to deal with writing at the college level. And we're talking college level as it was back in the 40's. The errors add to the whole mess.
Tell you what, once I get the last part of my series on what an RPG is up on my blog here I'll put together a basic DJ SRD for people to read. Starting with Race and Nationality.
BTW, when you add in such things as skills and what not an RPG can have dozens of stats.
Quote from: mythusmageEach stat has its purpose. I should know, I was the official rules lawyer for the game. For example, skill in melee combat got the average of Physical Muscular-Capacity and Physical-Neural-Capacity as a bonus. Magic resistance was 0.1 Physical Trait. But you do have a point about the detail. The game as a whole goes into great detail. An easier entry when you're a highschool kid is Mythus Prime, which has but 3 stats.
No, the capacities got used a good deal. They got used all the time. The speeds saw some use, too, in certain situations.
What I didn't see much used was the "power" rating.
I think that game, more than anything, broke my childhood obsession with complex systems. :)
-O
I found my old FUDGE telescoping stats article. It actually started as a method for designing characters for a setting neutral character vice anything to be played, but I would consider using it for FUDGE.
There are 4 "baseline attributes". Each "baseine attribute" can be divided into up to 3 "component attributes".
The baseline attributes and their components are:
Body (Strength, Health, Endurance)
Action (Agility, Dexterity, Quickness)
Mind (Reasoning, Perception, Willpower)
Spirit (Charisma, Luck, Magic Potential)
You can describe a simple character by simply listing their baseline stats; in such a case it is assumed that all of their component stats are the same as the baseline. For example, a simple generic warrior NPC might be:
Body: Good
Action: Good
Mind: Mediocre
Spirit: Mediocre
If such a character was called on to do a Strength test, the characters strength would be assumed to be good, the same as the baseline stat Body.
More detailed characters might have different detailed stats; in these cases the baseline stat (if needed*) would be the average of the three component stats.
As a general guideline for most human characters, each component stat should be within 2 levels of the baseline stat, AND at least one of the other stats associated witht the same baseline, unless the character is unusual for some reason.
A starting character (using the "1/2 levels" rule from FUDGE might look like this
BODY: GOOD (Str:Great,Htlth:Fair)
ACTION: GOOD
MIND: FAIR (Res:Mediocre,Per:Mediocre,Will:Good)
Spirit: FAIR(Luck:Great, Magic:Mediocre)
Note that no component stats were listed for the action attribute; the player in this case might have been satisfied having an agility, dexterity, and quickness each of "good". Any stat not listed defaults to the baseline if it is not listed.
Cog Wars has five:
Cunning, Daring, Grace, Patience, and Zeal.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenCog Wars has five:
Cunning, Daring, Grace, Patience, and Zeal.
Woah...
That's actually diferrent.
Generally, I like either zero or 3-6.
Zero works when fine when everybody is assumed to be average at everything unless they have a skill, advantage or fault that differentiates them from the average in a significant way. This is actually a pretty elegant approach and one I favor.
If there are fixed stats, the Tri-Stat system's Body/Mind/Soul set is about the smallest one I've seen that I've actually found to be useable in play.
D&D six stats are the largest set I've seen that didn't get too nitpicky for my tastes (games where characters have multiple stats like Coordination, Reflexes and Speed instead of just Dexterity definitely split too many hairs for what's supposed to be a mere game, in my opinion).
Four is about the perfect number of fixed states for me, and I tend toward Caesar Slaad's approach in describing them.
Quote from: obrynNo, the capacities got used a good deal. They got used all the time. The speeds saw some use, too, in certain situations.
What I didn't see much used was the "power" rating.
I think that game, more than anything, broke my childhood obsession with complex systems. :)
-O
Power shows how strong a character is in a Category. But I agree that a few examples of how power works would've helped a lot.
BTW, Gary once told me he included all the stuff he did in DJ figuring that people would use what they saw a need for. Lejendary Adventures was his redevelopment and refinement of Mythus Prime done, in large part, because he found DJ a tad overwhelming.
Quote from: YamoIf there are fixed stats, the Tri-Stat system's Body/Mind/Soul set is about the smallest one I've seen that I've actually found to be useable in play.
Well, the characteristics in
Prince Valiant consisted of nothing more than Brawn and Charisma, augmented by various skills.
(And of course,
Nobilis has its set of four rather setting-specific attributes...)
Quote from: mythusmageBTW, Gary once told me he included all the stuff he did in DJ figuring that people would use what they saw a need for. Lejendary Adventures was his redevelopment and refinement of Mythus Prime done, in large part, because he found DJ a tad overwhelming.
So riddle me this - if the Power stat is more or less never used for any game mechanics, why have it at all? :)
-O
Quote from: obrynSo riddle me this - if the Power stat is more or less never used for any game mechanics, why have it at all? :)
-O
As "comprehensive" as the DJ system was, it was missing a ton of stuff. Rules for encumbrance and endurance for example.
Mythus was rushed. Gary had a modern day/near future horror game ready to go, but a certain (computer game) partner insisted on a fantasy game. And it had to be done now.
So Gygax cobbled together a 1,000,000 word manuscript with the aid of Dave Newton (
Rapture: The Second Coming) and sent it in to GDW. Where Lester Smith (
Dark Conspiracy) got a grand total of three months to whip it into shape. Before TSR bought the rights in the settlement I was compiling errata for a possible second edition.
The "partner"? Couldn't be bothered to stay in touch in any substantial fashion. They also left Gary and GDW out on the line to dry where TSR's suit was concerned. Turns out they were three months from releasing the computer version of
Mythus when GDW and Omega Helios (Gary and Dave's company) agreed to TSR's offer. Given that TSR faced having the suit thrown out of Federal court for lack of merit, plus the possibility of having to pay court costs and lawyers fees, news about the eminent debut of the
Mythus computer game may have given Gary et. al. the will to continue the fight.
The computer game? It was released under a different name. Stunk on ice.
In short,
Dangerous Journeys: Mythus was an incomplete game when it was published, and we never had the chance to complete it.
So what do you use power for in DJ? What do you use physical-muscular or mental-mnemonic power for in real life? Note that I said power measures how strong a character is in a category. What then is metaphysical power but how strong one is in understanding and insight?
Quote from: mythusmageI was compiling errata for a possible second edition.
I've always considered
Mythus an overly complex mechanic, but I loved the detail of compiling all that information together. At one point, I wanted to use it to develop a sci-fi campaign, but I realized that I'd have to go to all the work to compile the same kind of information about sci-fi that
Mythus did for fantasy, just to make the game feel right.
I just couldn't afford that kind of time investment. But, I still keep
Mythus on my shelf and at one point I had about 4 copies of every book (I kept picking them up on eBay on the cheap) so that I could delve into it with my players.
And then I discovered another group who was developing their own games that had a much simpler and easy to use mechanic. But, I do still have a love for
Mythus, even though I never did figure out how to use the magic...
Mythusmage, where are you from? I'd love to sit down one day and be reacquainted with the game by someone who knows it and loves it. :)
I'm in San Diego, CA. BTW, check out Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) for Mythus groups.
Quote from: Dominus NoxBTW, what game has the MOST stats and which one has the LEAST stats?
I'll go for TWERPS for the least.
It has one. Which is both your Strength and your current Hit Points, and used to pay for any extras like spells or cyberware in the many add-ons.
As for most no idea, Hero system has more than enough for me however.
Personally between 3 and 9 is my favourite, depends on the setting and system.
QuoteBTW, what game has the MOST stats and which one has the LEAST stats?
Depending on what you are calling stats, Dream Park and Fate have zero.
But I can see one making the case that both have stats, if you want to call aspects stats in FATE and if you make the case that really broad skills act as stats in Dream Park.
Our Epic RPG system has 10:
Agility
Beauty
Build
Essence
Intuition
Might
Presence
Reason
Vitality
Will
Rolemaster with all the options turned on has 12 and a half I think and, in keeping with it being totally tone-deaf to style it has some odd decisions - split agility and quickness, a stand-alone memory stat, and a measure of mental quickness called, oddly, eloquence.
I actually kind of like all of them - you need to make an effort to keep memory relevant, but it's a handy way to split what you know from what you can figure out. And like others I usually like to split agility and dexterity in any kind of rules heavy action game.
The idea that strength is irrelevant in modern games unless you're figuring encumberance is a good one - most of my games are cartoony enough that there's plenty of martial arts and the like, but in a "realistic" modern game you'd only really use it for recoil - I like the idea of rolling it into body the way CP2020 did.
Charisma and appearance - Rolemaster and unearthed arcana 1st Ed AD&D split them, but I think it's a little silly - just say that charisma is the benefit you get from all your social advatanges, and that you can look good or just be captivating at your discretion.
I like the idea of a separate perception stat - I think SR4 has one and I read a dragon magazine article about adding it to 1st Ed AD&D. Most games make it a skill, which works for "search room" and "spot ambush" but otherwise seems an oddly broad array of things to learn through practice.
As for luck, I think there's a role for it, provided the GM is willing to handle the extra work of bringing it into the game. I'm inclined to agree with those who say that it's best treated as an advantage/disadvantage though.
I think willpower/self discipline is really worth having - I think it's a big omission from a lot of games.
Finally, what are people's thoughts about empathy as distinct from Charisma - makes more sense in a game where it ties to magical ability I guess.