Quote from: VellorianHow exactly is the "Bill" stat used?  I've never seen that one before.

Very carefully. It is unstable and varies with the amount of coffee the character has.

Bill: 20

That Noumenon (which is under discussion over at RPGnet right now) apparently has nine of them: Awareness, Violence, Activity, Wisdom, Personality, Chitin, Metamorphosis, Communion, and Rapport.

But say what you will, renaming the hit points or wound levels in your game "Salubrity" might be going a bit too far.

Noumenon...  This takes the cake as the weirdest thing I've seen all week.

Mark me down as uninterested.

-O

Quote from: obrynYeesh.  I played Mythus for a year or so back in high school (I had a higher tolerance for crazy amounts of detail back then), but even then 27 stats seemed like a gigantic pain.  Many of them didn't seem to have any game use whatsoever.

-O

Didn't get much into the rules, did you?

Each stat has its purpose. I should know, I was the official rules lawyer for the game. For example, skill in melee combat got the average of Physical Muscular-Capacity and Physical-Neural-Capacity as a bonus. Magic resistance was 0.1 Physical Trait. But you do have a point about the detail. The game as a whole goes into great detail. An easier entry when you're a highschool kid is Mythus Prime, which has but 3 stats.

Gary's unique take on exposition doesn't help matters any. Especially when you're trying to deal with writing at the college level. And we're talking college level as it was back in the 40's. The errors add to the whole mess.

Tell you what, once I get the last part of my series on what an RPG is up on my blog here I'll put together a basic DJ SRD for people to read. Starting with Race and Nationality.

BTW, when you add in such things as skills and what not an RPG can have dozens of stats.

Quote from: mythusmageEach stat has its purpose. I should know, I was the official rules lawyer for the game. For example, skill in melee combat got the average of Physical Muscular-Capacity and Physical-Neural-Capacity as a bonus. Magic resistance was 0.1 Physical Trait. But you do have a point about the detail. The game as a whole goes into great detail. An easier entry when you're a highschool kid is Mythus Prime, which has but 3 stats.

No, the capacities got used a good deal.  They got used all the time.  The speeds saw some use, too, in certain situations.

What I didn't see much used was the "power" rating.

I think that game, more than anything, broke my childhood obsession with complex systems.

-O

I found my old FUDGE telescoping stats article. It actually started as a method for designing characters for a setting neutral character vice anything to be played, but I would consider using it for FUDGE.

There are 4 "baseline attributes". Each "baseine attribute" can be divided into up to 3 "component attributes".

The baseline attributes and their components are:

Body (Strength, Health, Endurance)
Action (Agility, Dexterity, Quickness)
Mind (Reasoning, Perception, Willpower)
Spirit (Charisma, Luck, Magic Potential)

You can describe a simple character by simply listing their baseline stats; in such a case it is assumed that all of their component stats are the same as the baseline. For example, a simple generic warrior NPC might be:

Body: Good
Action: Good
Mind: Mediocre
Spirit: Mediocre

If such a character was called on to do a Strength test, the characters strength would be assumed to be good, the same as the baseline stat Body.

More detailed characters might have different detailed stats; in these cases the baseline stat (if needed*) would be the average of the three component stats.

As a general guideline for most human characters, each component stat should be within 2 levels of the baseline stat, AND at least one of the other stats associated witht the same baseline, unless the character is unusual for some reason.

A starting character (using the "1/2 levels" rule from FUDGE might look like this

BODY: GOOD (Str:Great,Htlth:Fair)
ACTION: GOOD
MIND: FAIR (Res:Mediocre,Per:Mediocre,Will:Good)
Spirit: FAIR(Luck:Great, Magic:Mediocre)

Note that no component stats were listed for the action attribute; the player in this case might have been satisfied having an agility, dexterity, and quickness each of "good". Any stat not listed defaults to the baseline if it is not listed.

Cog Wars has five:

Cunning, Daring, Grace, Patience, and Zeal.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenCog Wars has five:

Cunning, Daring, Grace, Patience, and Zeal.

Woah...
That's actually diferrent.

Generally, I like either zero or 3-6.

Zero works when fine when everybody is assumed to be average at everything unless they have a skill, advantage or fault that differentiates them from the average in a significant way.  This is actually a pretty elegant approach and one I favor.

If there are fixed stats, the Tri-Stat system's Body/Mind/Soul set is about the smallest one I've seen that I've actually found to be useable in play.

D&D six stats are the largest set I've seen that didn't get too nitpicky for my tastes (games where characters have multiple stats like Coordination, Reflexes and Speed instead of just Dexterity definitely split too many hairs for what's supposed to be a mere game, in my opinion).

Four is about the perfect number of fixed states for me, and I tend toward Caesar Slaad's approach in describing them.

Quote from: obrynNo, the capacities got used a good deal.  They got used all the time.  The speeds saw some use, too, in certain situations.

What I didn't see much used was the "power" rating.

I think that game, more than anything, broke my childhood obsession with complex systems.

-O

Power shows how strong a character is in a Category. But I agree that a few examples of how power works would've helped a lot.

BTW, Gary once told me he included all the stuff he did in DJ figuring that people would use what they saw a need for. Lejendary Adventures was his redevelopment and refinement of Mythus Prime done, in large part, because he found DJ a tad overwhelming.

Quote from: YamoIf there are fixed stats, the Tri-Stat system's Body/Mind/Soul set is about the smallest one I've seen that I've actually found to be useable in play.

Well, the characteristics in Prince Valiant consisted of nothing more than Brawn and Charisma, augmented by various skills.

(And of course, Nobilis has its set of four rather setting-specific attributes...)

Quote from: mythusmageBTW, Gary once told me he included all the stuff he did in DJ figuring that people would use what they saw a need for. Lejendary Adventures was his redevelopment and refinement of Mythus Prime done, in large part, because he found DJ a tad overwhelming.

So riddle me this - if the Power stat is more or less never used for any game mechanics, why have it at all?

-O

Quote from: obrynSo riddle me this - if the Power stat is more or less never used for any game mechanics, why have it at all?

-O

As "comprehensive" as the DJ system was, it was missing a ton of stuff. Rules for encumbrance and endurance for example. Mythus was rushed. Gary had a modern day/near future horror game ready to go, but a certain (computer game) partner insisted on a fantasy game. And it had to be done now.

So Gygax cobbled together a 1,000,000 word manuscript with the aid of Dave Newton (Rapture: The Second Coming) and sent it in to GDW. Where Lester Smith (Dark Conspiracy) got a grand total of three months to whip it into shape. Before TSR bought the rights in the settlement I was compiling errata for a possible second edition.

The "partner"? Couldn't be bothered to stay in touch in any substantial fashion. They also left Gary and GDW out on the line to dry where TSR's suit was concerned. Turns out they were three months from releasing the computer version of Mythus when GDW and Omega Helios (Gary and Dave's company) agreed to TSR's offer. Given that TSR faced having the suit thrown out of Federal court for lack of merit, plus the possibility of having to pay court costs and lawyers fees, news about the eminent debut of the Mythus computer game may have given Gary et. al. the will to continue the fight.

The computer game? It was released under a different name. Stunk on ice.

In short, Dangerous Journeys: Mythus was an incomplete game when it was published, and we never had the chance to complete it.

So what do you use power for in DJ? What do you use physical-muscular or mental-mnemonic power for in real life? Note that I said power measures how strong a character is in a category. What then is metaphysical power but how strong one is in understanding and insight?

Quote from: mythusmageI was compiling errata for a possible second edition.

I've always considered Mythus an overly complex mechanic, but I loved the detail of compiling all that information together.  At one point, I wanted to use it to develop a sci-fi campaign, but I realized that I'd have to go to all the work to compile the same kind of information about sci-fi that Mythus did for fantasy, just to make the game feel right.

I just couldn't afford that kind of time investment.  But, I still keep Mythus on my shelf and at one point I had about 4 copies of every book (I kept picking them up on eBay on the cheap) so that I could delve into it with my players.

And then I discovered another group who was developing their own games that had a much simpler and easy to use mechanic.  But, I do still have a love for Mythus, even though I never did figure out how to use the magic...

Mythusmage, where are you from?  I'd love to sit down one day and be reacquainted with the game by someone who knows it and loves it.  

I'm in San Diego, CA.  BTW, check out Yahoo Groups for Mythus groups.