Tell me about Cyberpunk RPGs. Or even talk about Cyberpunk in general. For the bounds of the discussion, I'm not interested in Shadowrun. Here are some things I have found in a cursory search. Let me know if you have any experience with them.
Corporation: Available right now on Bundle of Holding. I like the 2d10 roll-under system, but something is holding me back.
Cyberpunk 2020: Sure it's dated, but in a good way. Is it still playable? What do you need to add, change, or delete to make the game work?
Gurps Cyberpunk: It looks really dated, in a bad way. I wonder why they haven't made a 4th edition version, even if just a PDF. Or have they?
Interface Zero 2.0, for Savage Worlds: Looks like a very realized game world, maybe a bit too sci-fi?
OGL Cybernet: From Mongoose, when they were cranking out stuff in the 3rd Era halcyon days. I owned two of their other OGL titles which is enough to give me pause.
Polychrome: This is the cybernetics supplement for Stars Without Number. Would it be possible to use SWN + PC – the far future stuff to run an OSR cyberpunk? Until Sine Nomine makes an OSR cyberpunk game.
Sprawl: Uses the Apocalypse World engine. Any good?
The Worlds of Android: Looks like a sourcebook from the Netrunner CCG universe. Very Blade Runner. I think it is the most interesting thing on this list, but it's not an RPG.
CP2020 is the gold standard, there is so much out there that has been done to modify it, update it, etc. and its a darn good system
Just add cyberpunk to the game system you are using. Unless you don't like the system you are using.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091283Tell me about Cyberpunk RPGs. Or even talk about Cyberpunk in general. For the bounds of the discussion, I'm not interested in Shadowrun. Here are some things I have found in a cursory search. Let me know if you have any experience with them.
Corporation: Available right now on Bundle of Holding. I like the 2d10 roll-under system, but something is holding me back.
Cyberpunk 2020: Sure it's dated, but in a good way. Is it still playable? What do you need to add, change, or delete to make the game work?
Gurps Cyberpunk: It looks really dated, in a bad way. I wonder why they haven't made a 4th edition version, even if just a PDF. Or have they?
Interface Zero 2.0, for Savage Worlds: Looks like a very realized game world, maybe a bit too sci-fi?
OGL Cybernet: From Mongoose, when they were cranking out stuff in the 3rd Era halcyon days. I owned two of their other OGL titles which is enough to give me pause.
Polychrome: This is the cybernetics supplement for Stars Without Number. Would it be possible to use SWN + PC – the far future stuff to run an OSR cyberpunk? Until Sine Nomine makes an OSR cyberpunk game.
Sprawl: Uses the Apocalypse World engine. Any good?
The Worlds of Android: Looks like a sourcebook from the Netrunner CCG universe. The setting sounds like Blade Runner. I think it is the most interesting thing on this list, but it's not an RPG.
Sprawl and the Veil good for the setting maybe.
Interface Zero, I like it.
OGL Cybernet, no thanks.
Don't know the rest
You also have Zaibatsu and Identeco http://www.playidenteco.com/ (http://www.playidenteco.com/)
And soon (hopefully) my own take on an OSR Cyberpunk game.
Corporia by Brabblemark Press is a really cool game. It's a Cyberpunk game that mixes in Arthurian legend. But chances are if you want a more scifi than fantasy game, you shouldn't play it.
Fantasy Flight Games recently released Shadow of the Beanstalk (set in the Android universe) for their GeneSys game and it's very good. Add in Worlds of Android if you want a deeper dive, but it's by no means necessary.
What are you looking for as far as the gameplay loop? Drama and deep social stuff? Action-packed missions? Gritty and street? Heady "What is it to be human?" stories? What you're looking for is going to possibly steer you toward certain games.
I own The Sprawl and haven’t played it but based on a reading, it’s really good mission-based cyberpunk.
Quote from: NYTFLYR;1091285CP2020 is the gold standard, there is so much out there that has been done to modify it, update it, etc. and its a darn good system
Including the announced Cyberpunk Red from the RTG gang. https://rtalsoriangames.com/2019/05/04/cyberpunk-red-faq-5-4-2019/
I'm not affiliated, nor do I receive compensation. Just sharing with the community.
There Hard Hired Island (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ettin/hard-wired-island) for D&D 5e... But it's complete miss the point and the author really wants to writes about his political viewpoints instead of about Cyberpunk.
It's funny because all wrong reasons.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1091286Just add cyberpunk to the game system you are using. Unless you don't like the system you are using.
That's certainly an option. Isn't there a cybernetics book for Mongoose Traveller? That might work.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1091288And soon (hopefully) my own take on an OSR Cyberpunk game.
Looking forward to it. Can you give us a 30-second elevator pitch?
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091297Fantasy Flight Games recently released Shadow of the Beanstalk (set in the Android universe) for their GeneSys game and it's very good. Add in Worlds of Android if you want a deeper dive, but it's by no means necessary.
What are you looking for as far as the gameplay loop? Drama and deep social stuff? Action-packed missions? Gritty and street? Heady "What is it to be human?" stories? What you're looking for is going to possibly steer you toward certain games.
I own The Sprawl and haven't played it but based on a reading, it's really good mission-based cyberpunk.
I was browsing the FF website last night and saw both, as well as the card game and board game. Definitely going to pick up
Shadow and
World for setting ideas alone. Is Genesys any good? Is that the 2d20 engine? Found it meh when I tried Star Trek.
I'm leaning more towards drama/intrigue/humanity themes, but I don't really need a system for that. What I need is a really good cybernetics system, as well as a full-fleshed background. That's the stuff that takes time and energy to create.
Quote from: RandyB;1091313Including the announced Cyberpunk Red from the RTG gang. https://rtalsoriangames.com/2019/05/04/cyberpunk-red-faq-5-4-2019/
I'm not affiliated, nor do I receive compensation. Just sharing with the community.
Now that is intriguing. Looks like Rtal is ditching Fuzion and going back to Interlock. And no artwork with dolls this time.
Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1091318There Hard Hired Island (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ettin/hard-wired-island) for D&D 5e... But it's complete miss the point and the author really wants to writes about his political viewpoints instead of about Cyberpunk.
It's funny because all wrong reasons.
Quote from: KS pagePaul "Ettin" Matijevic is a tabletop RPG developer
Yeah, that's a hard stop right there.
Interface Zero has a variety of systems and versions.
Besides 2.0 for Savage Worlds, I believe there's a 3.0 for SWADE (or coming very soon).
Pretty sure there's a 2.0 for Pathfinder and Starfinder, and "1.0" for D20/True 20.
There's probably more I've failed to mention.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091327Looking forward to it. Can you give us a 30-second elevator pitch?
it's 2100 sometime in the past The corporations with the help of useful idiots rose to power, they maintain a mix of cooperation/cold war/full blown war. You're one among the less fortunate, neither a wage slave nor a corporate, everybody does what it takes to survive, there are no heroes, only survivors and you and your crew are disposable assets for sale to the highest bidder. No magic, no hacker class (It's an NPC on the side of the players).
Quote from: Aglondir;1091328I was browsing the FF website last night and saw both, as well as the card game and board game. Definitely going to pick up Shadow and World for setting ideas alone. Is Genesys any good? Is that the 2d20 engine? Found it meh when I tried Star Trek.
I'm leaning more towards drama/intrigue/humanity themes, but I don't really need a system for that. What I need is a really good cybernetics system, as well as a full-fleshed background. That's the stuff that takes time and energy to create.
No, it's FFG's Narrative Dice System not 2d20. I really enjoy it and have since it was introduced in FFG's
Star Wars line. It's not for everyone, especially since it uses proprietary dice. I feel they're well worth it and do things no other system does. It's got a wonderful space of crunch and narrative fluff that flows at the table. However, if interpreting results past the math of hit or miss isn't your thing, you might not enjoy it.
Setting-wise,
Android is meaty and runs the gamut from gritty, gang-riddled streets to Martian clone rebels with lasers. I really like the feel of it and how deep you can get with the philosophical aspects, or not. Either focus (or a mix) is good.
There's also Cyberspace, basically the cyberpunk-variant of MERP. It has some great material like the Chicago Arcology sourcebook and is, due to its age, part of the genre's root era. Back then it used to be Cyberpunk, Cyberspace and Shadowrun - plus GURPS Cyberpunk.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091336No, it's FFG's Narrative Dice System not 2d20. I really enjoy it and have since it was introduced in FFG's Star Wars line. It's not for everyone, especially since it uses proprietary dice. I feel they're well worth it and do things no other system does. It's got a wonderful space of crunch and narrative fluff that flows at the table. However, if interpreting results past the math of hit or miss isn't your thing, you might not enjoy it.
Setting-wise, Android is meaty and runs the gamut from gritty, gang-riddled streets to Martian clone rebels with lasers. I really like the feel of it and how deep you can get with the philosophical aspects, or not. Either focus (or a mix) is good.
Gotcha. I haven't tried that yet, and I must admit the weird dice give me pause. I'm more into 2d6 or 3d6 these days. Still it might be worth a look. The setting, however, sounds great.
Quote from: kythri;1091332Pretty sure there's a 2.0 for Pathfinder and Starfinder, and "1.0" for D20/True 20..
I like True 20, so that might work for me.
No love for Shadowrun?
Quote from: daddystabz;1091344No love for Shadowrun?
Probably aren't interested in cyberpunk + magic. Or at least, they perhaps know how SR is doing, how it's played, etc... but want a more 'pure' cyberpunk experience?
Anyways, to the OP, Cyberpunk 2020 is getting an upgrade this year, RTG is putting out a new version to go along with CD Projekt Red's Cyberpunk 2077 video game. Cyperpunk 2020 is a very fun game.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091338Gotcha. I haven't tried that yet, and I must admit the weird dice give me pause. I'm more into 2d6 or 3d6 these days. Still it might be worth a look. The setting, however, sounds great.
They gave me big pause until my desire for
Star Wars won out. Now I love the system. If you're set on the d6 I recommend
The Sprawl or even better, the upcoming
Null Vector official hack for
Blades in the Dark. Sadly, there's no timeline for
Null Vector, but the Forged in the Dark system is
FANTASTIC for cyberpunk!
Quote from: Aglondir;1091329Now that is intriguing. Looks like Rtal is ditching Fuzion and going back to Interlock. And no artwork with dolls this time.
Maybe because of Interlock Unlimited? https://datafortress2020.com/InterlockUnlimited.html (https://datafortress2020.com/InterlockUnlimited.html)
Watch this video, and then find a tabletop RPG that best does it using a system you like.
[video=youtube;qIcTM8WXFjk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIcTM8WXFjk[/youtube]
Quote from: daddystabz;1091344No love for Shadowrun?
NONE! Keep your elves out my cyberpunk!
(edit: On a more serious note, I played a lot of SR back in the 90's. I did not like the demi-humans, the magic, and the Native American stuff. Nor did I like the in-game fiction, which seemed downright stupid. Maybe the game has changed since then?)
Quote from: Aglondir;1091380NONE! Keep your elves out my cyberpunk!
(edit: On a more serious note, I played a lot of SR back in the 90's. I did not like the demi-humans, the magic, and the Native American stuff. Nor did I like the in-game fiction, which seemed downright stupid. Maybe the game has changed since then?)
No, it hasn't. I love
Shadowrun for itself, not to scratch my cyberpunk itch.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1091363Watch this video, and then find a tabletop RPG that best does it using a system you like.
[video=youtube;qIcTM8WXFjk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIcTM8WXFjk[/youtube]
Considering the game is based on the Cyberpunk 2020 RPG... :)
Setting-wise, Android is the most interesting thing I've seen in the genre recently. Take a look at Shadow of the Beanstalk for Genesys, Worlds of Android and the Netrunner cardgame to have a feel for it.
Rules-wise, The Veil seems to approach the kind of personal narrative seen in Blade Runner the most.
Everything else is missions-based. And you have a bazillion things for this.
CP2020 requires a lot of work to get it to run right. The only skills that are defined are the ones directly related to combat; for everything else you are on your own in figuring out mechanics.
The combat system is completely broken, with armor being so cheap and effective that most of the game's weapons are pointless. If you want to run Shadowrun style missions, feel free to laugh at the ridiculously under-armed and armored corporate security.
I played CP2020 a ton in the 90's, but I am not nostalgic for the system.
Quote from: NYTFLYR;1091285CP2020 is the gold standard, there is so much out there that has been done to modify it, update it, etc. and its a darn good system
All of this is true.
There are a few elements I would see cleaned up, but it holds up well. Friday Night Firefight is, for me,
THE best combat system written for modern weapons.
My group insists we play it next year. It has the working title of "
I was promised cyberarms."
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1091393Considering the game is based on the Cyberpunk 2020 RPG... :)
It even has the same Cyberpunk logo. ;)
Someone took a bite out of this thread.
ADDED:
Ok. Good. The posts are back.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091283The Sprawl: Uses the Apocalypse World engine. Any good?
If what you want is mission-based cyberpunk adventures (anything from theft, kidnapping, assassination, bad PR, etc) then The Sprawl is pretty darn good. You can still RP things that happen outside the jobs, but the game's focus is getting a job, doing the legwork for it, getting in and getting out and then getting paid. Any setting comes though via description and details that emerge during that cycle of play.
It is an Apocalypse World based game, so you have moves, clocks, harm and tags. If that's all ok by you then there is quite a bit to love. I talked about it in another threat here, but specifically the [intel] and [gear] rules were a hit with my players. Basically, in an effort to keep things moving and not bog the players and GM with hours of pre-job prep talk things are made a little abstract.
For example, [intel], is just info you got during the legwork part of the game. You go, talk to contacts, bribe people, whatever. You get X amount of [intel] while doing it. Then later on the job you can spend X [intel] to know things. So maybe you bribe a maintenance worker who is on a crew doing work at a building you need to get into. You get 2 [intel] from him. While sneaking into the building you spend 1 of your [intel] to know, according to the guy you talked to earlier, that when the climate control kicks in it makes the vents groan. You can then get a bonus to any roll you make taking advantage of that [intel], most likely involving sneaking, but maybe the players can think of other uses.
[Gear] is similar. You gather X [gear] instead of putting together a laundry list of what you bring. When you find yourself on the roof of the building and needing a rope and harness to repel down with you spend 1 [gear], describe where you got it from, and then pull out that rope and harness you packed earlier.
It's a bit much to go into here, but the hacking rules are handled pretty slick via its own Moves system. Compared to a few other games we've tried, most of my players liked the way it was done here over those games. It came down to everything moving along and not having anyone sitting out while other people do their thing.
The game has a few supplements out.
The November Metric is a collection of cities from around the world for you to set your game in.
The Downtown Dataheist is a pay-what-you-want adventure that is basically a short quickstart.
The Mission Files is a collection of 10 ready to run missions of various types and difficulty.
Touched: A Darkening Alley adds some low magic and supernatural elements to the game. I know there is a fan hack somewhere out there that basically turns the game into Shadowrun, but I don't have any experience with it.
Quote from: RgalexIt's a bit much to go into here, but the hacking rules are handled pretty slick via its own Moves system
It's not really a downside but we would prefer on-the-fly /augmented reality hacking than the old style remote hacking the game uses. But then it's not hard to tweak (we used a tweaked Bypass move from the Tech).
Quote from: RgalexI know there is a fan hack somewhere out there that basically turns the game into Shadowrun, but I don't have any experience with it.
We use this one and it's pretty good: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zAPjs8AprkpoW_u3lvNNTja9vI1oOuav (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zAPjs8AprkpoW_u3lvNNTja9vI1oOuav)
Quote from: Longshadow;1091403CP2020 requires a lot of work to get it to run right. The only skills that are defined are the ones directly related to combat; for everything else you are on your own in figuring out mechanics.
The combat system is completely broken, with armor being so cheap and effective that most of the game's weapons are pointless. If you want to run Shadowrun style missions, feel free to laugh at the ridiculously under-armed and armored corporate security.
I played CP2020 a ton in the 90's, but I am not nostalgic for the system.
I had to pull out my copy of the rulebook to refresh my memory. I don't remember actual play details, but I do remember playing CP2020, having to take AP ammo and use bursts to cut through body armor. Anything harder than MetalGear, You'll probably want to use something like a Rail Gun to punch through.
Interface Zero is pretty good for Cyberpunk in Savage Worlds.
I think Stars Will Numbers would be a good OSR cyberpunk option.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1091595Interface Zero is pretty good for Cyberpunk in Savage Worlds.
I think Stars Will Numbers would be a good OSR cyberpunk option.
Stars Without Number Revised has hacking rules of a sort. Really Matrix style combat. Of course I haven't found yet a good hacking rule set, either they are boring to all but the hacker, they are magic where the advanced technology allows the hacker to gain instant access (Really? the enemy has the same level of tech!) or they are the Matrix.
Think I found a way to solve this conundrum, not sure what the CP2013/2020 purists will think about it tho, it's totally different and allows for a more fluid game with no boring parts. But you'll have to wait to playtest it (or buy it) to find out.
Quote from: daddystabz;1091344No love for Shadowrun?
Not since 4th.
I have an incredible amount of disdain for the writers, who've channeled their extremely left leaning politics into the game to the point that it hurdled past subtext and simply became text.
Quote from: NYTFLYR;1091285CP2020 is the gold standard, there is so much out there that has been done to modify it, update it, etc. and its a darn good system
I'll see you CP2020 and raise you the Roadstriker II supplement for Mekton that was specifically designed to interface with CP2020. Because nothing tops pure Cyberpunk like adding motorcycles and cars that transform into power armor to it.
I skimmed the quickstart and it has some neat ideas.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ettin/hard-wired-island/
Quote from: Chris24601;1091663Because nothing tops pure Cyberpunk like adding motorcycles and cars that transform into power armor to it.
But does it show dolls in place of art? Because nothing bottoms out cyberpunk like Cyberpunk 3e.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091666I skimmed the quickstart and it has some neat ideas.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ettin/hard-wired-island/
I'll just keep using Mongoose Traveller's system
Quote from: Aglondir;1091329Now that is intriguing. Looks like Rtal is ditching Fuzion and going back to Interlock. And no artwork with dolls this time.
I missed this the first time through the thread. Good news. I preferred Interlock over Fusion.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091283Tell me about Cyberpunk RPGs. Or even talk about Cyberpunk in general. For the bounds of the discussion, I'm not interested in Shadowrun. Here are some things I have found in a cursory search. Let me know if you have any experience with them.
The Worlds of Android: Looks like a sourcebook from the Netrunner CCG universe. Very Blade Runner. I think it is the most interesting thing on this list, but it's not an RPG.
Android Netwunner is not a CCG. Its a card game with little expansions that come out fairly regularly. No random. No collectible. Thats been FFGs business model for a while now.
Bemusingly the Card Game is actually a retheme of the Cyberpunk 2020 CCG that WOTC screwed over way back. They removed all the CP2020 elements but kept the netrunning cyberspace combat element and it is set in their Android sci-fi/cyberpink setting they use now and then.
Other interesting cyberpink RPGs I can think of...
Shadowrun: Seen alot of folk play this without the fantasy elements, or heavily downplaying them to the point elces, orcs, etc are essentially mutants and magic is not present.
Chromosome: An Amazing Engine setting. Interesting in that it is a biopunk setting overall. With biotech mostly functioning the same as cybernetics would.
Deathnet: A mini setting for d20 modern. A population of people in VR find themselves trapped in the virtual cyberscape and have to survive and try to find a way to escape. An interesting premise that was very open ended to how things played out.
Cyberworld: A combination LARP and RPG. Leaning more to the LARP side really. But was playable as an RPG. Kind of obscure and I've only met a few others who own the rulebook.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091666I skimmed the quickstart and it has some neat ideas.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ettin/hard-wired-island/
I saw that but refuse to back it because Paul "Ettin" Matijevic is involved.
Quote from: rgalex;1091722I saw that but refuse to back it because Paul "Ettin" Matijevic is involved.
Ugh. His Twitter feed.
And it's a real shame too. I like Jay Iles's work and would have probably backed this otherwise. I just can't with "Ettin" attached to it. He's one on a very, very small list of people who I refuse to support.
For fans of the
BLAME! manga/anime (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwy806RC2-Q), there's Evolution Pulse, an Italian rpg that's a spiritual successor (and apparently pretty good at it).
Spoiler
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2zodbww.png)
(https://www.terradeigiochi.it/4314-thickbox_default/evolution-pulse-echi-oscuri-versione-digitale.jpg)
(https://i2.wp.com/www.mundoscolidem.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Evolution_Pulse_Personagens.png?ssl=1)
(https://i2.wp.com/www.mundoscolidem.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Evolution_Pulse_Hekaths.png?fit=800%2C397&ssl=1)
(https://www.dreamlordpress.it/images/banners/banner_hekath.jpg)
(https://www.dreamlordpress.it/images/banners/banner_obscura.jpg)
Quote from: rgalex;1091722I saw that but refuse to back it because Paul "Ettin" Matijevic is involved.
I was hoping to separate art from artist until punching Nazis was an example of what you can do with a cyberfist. I deleted the quickstart. It has some good ideas, but damn if it's annoying to see the weak jabs with SocJus crap.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091789I was hoping to separate art from artist until punching Nazis was an example of what you can do with a cyberfist. I deleted the quickstart. It has some good ideas, but damn if it's annoying to see the weak jabs with SocJus crap.
Weak jabs is all the sjw crowd can accomplish.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091380NONE! Keep your elves out my cyberpunk!
(edit: On a more serious note, I played a lot of SR back in the 90's. I did not like the demi-humans, the magic, and the Native American stuff. Nor did I like the in-game fiction, which seemed downright stupid. Maybe the game has changed since then?)
Overall. Not for the better past 2nd ed. Theres some interesting stuff in 3rd ed but it starts to increasingly go downhill...
If you want Shadowrun done right then grab Night's Edge. The CP2020 techno-horror setting.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1091446Someone took a bite out of this thread.
ADDED:
Ok. Good. The posts are back.
Seems not? My post and a few others seem to be gone.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091283The Worlds of Android: Looks like a sourcebook from the Netrunner CCG universe. Very Blade Runner. I think it is the most interesting thing on this list, but it's not an RPG.
Try #2
Android Netrunner is NOT a CCG. It is a standard card game with alot of little expansions that come out fairly regularly. No random. No "collectible". This has been a business model for FFG for a while now.
But... Android Netrunner is in fact a retheme of the original Netrunner CCG. Which is... the CCG for Cyberpunk 2020 which WOTC produced and then screwed over. Its nearly exactly the same game. But with the CP2020 IP filed off. And now pacaged as a standard game rather than a CCG.
Try #2
Some good cyberpunk RPGs.
Shadowrun: Seen this played quite a bit with the magic elements either removed or heavily downplayed to the point that theres no magic and any elves, orcs, whatever are either mutants or bodymodding.
Night's Edge: This is Shadowrun done better in many ways. A techno-horror setting for CP2020 what meshes horror and the supernatural with cyberpunk so much better.
Chromosome: An Amazing Engine setting. This one is interesting as it is actually more a Biopunk setting with biotech used much more extensively rather than cybernetics.
DeathNet: A d20 modern setting that appeared in Polyhedron. This one was about a people being trapped in a VR world after some unknown event. They can not log out and have no idea what happened . From there they have to try and survive the various worlds trying to find clues or programs to help them escape. Rather ahead of its time and came out the same year that .Hack//sign.
Cyberworld: A LARP system that could also be played as a straightup RPG. An obscure one I have only met a few others who own a copy.
Cyberspace: This one used to be rather well known but eventually was overshadowed by CP2020 and others. If I recall right it ises a similar system to Runequest?
Cyberpapacy for TORG: This was a really interesting concept. Mixing inquisition type religious elements with a cyberpunk setting.
Tharkhold for TORG: Another odd mix. This one techno-horror and body-horror with a touch of Gargoyles. Did not though present itself as well as Cyberpapacy did.
Quote from: Omega;1091800Try #2
Android Netrunner is NOT a CCG. It is a standard card game with alot of little expansions that come out fairly regularly. No random. No "collectible". This has been a business model for FFG for a while now.
But... Android Netrunner is in fact a retheme of the original Netrunner CCG. Which is... the CCG for Cyberpunk 2020 which WOTC produced and then screwed over. Its nearly exactly the same game. But with the CP2020 IP filed off. And now pacaged as a standard game rather than a CCG.
The Android setting has its own identity and is actually pretty good. I recommend for anyone wanting an updated take on the genre.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091789I was hoping to separate art from artist until punching Nazis was an example of what you can do with a cyberfist. I deleted the quickstart. It has some good ideas, but damn if it's annoying to see the weak jabs with SocJus crap.
Was that actually in there? I couldn't get past the garbage on the KS page.
Quote from: Itachi;1091802The Android setting has its own identity and is actually pretty good. I recommend for anyone wanting an updated take on the genre.
Right Android is FFC's cyberpunk setting they use now and then. Androud, Android Netrunner and at least one other board game and seems the upcomming RPG. Similar to how they have used the Twilight Imperium setting to retheme the old Dune board game.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1091733Ugh. His Twitter feed.
Holy crap, it's like looking to nuclear reactor...
[video=youtube_share;5cmk52YwLQc]https://youtu.be/5cmk52YwLQc[/youtube]
Quote from: Aglondir;1091804Was that actually in there? I couldn't get past the garbage on the KS page.
Yes. I usually go right for quickstarts to see the system, etc. What turned you off on the main page?
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091827Yes. I usually go right for quickstarts to see the system, etc. What turned you off on the main page?
The game gets off to a great start, even if it sounds more like Babylon 5 than cyberpunk. But my favorite part of B5 was Garibaldi's adventures on Mars, so the initial premise intrigues me. Let's read on:
QuoteIn the shadows cast by the corporations lurk criminal gangs, hate groups, and rogue robots.
Uh... when did cyberpunk become about fighting hate groups?
QuoteThe player characters are Grand Cross citizens, trying to live their everyday lives while fighting for the station's future. They can be street activists, investigative reporters and other professionals, gig economy workers who run errands and hunt bounties to get by, or just here to fight the criminals, corrupt cops, hate groups, and alien androids the Cartel uses as proxies to do their dirty work.
More about fighting hate groups? I guess this is really a big thing in this game.
QuoteCapitalism? No thanks. Good cyberpunk is anti-capitalist. It's about how technology without ethics can make social inequality worse. The wealthy use it to cement their power and perpetuate the status quo, while marginalized communities are kept that way.
This is 90-degrees off. "Tech without ethics" makes
everything worse, not just social inequality. And the wealthy want to cement their power over
everyone, not just marginalized communities. This focus has me worried.
QuoteBeing a cyborg doesn't make you a stand-in for minorities in general, it's just another axis to your identity.
There's something weird going on with that statement. When did anyone think that cybering up makes you a minority? Usually the theme is that cybering up makes you less than human.
QuoteHard Wired Island is about a group of marginalized people using technology to try to change the status quo.
What exactly does marginalized mean? Can my PC be non-marginalized?
QuoteMany perspectives. Good cyberpunk examines how technology and power intersect in many different communities.
Is does? I think that good cyberpunk explores what it means to be human, the disintegration of government, corporate feudalism, the relationship of memories to identity, treachery and trust, etc.
I think it's possible to separate creator from content; some less than stellar people have created amazing works. But if I want to have "intrigues on a space station" I have a variety of other options that don't have built-in identity politics. This doesn't look like a cyberpunk game, it looks like "SJW Fantasies in the Near Future."
QuoteGood cyberpunk is anti-capitalist.
*Roll eyes* Good Cyberpunk is anti-
corporation.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1091954*Roll eyes* Good Cyberpunk is anti-corporation.
Bingo.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091947The game gets off to a great start, even if it sounds more like Babylon 5 than cyberpunk. But my favorite part of B5 was Garibaldi's adventures on Mars, so the initial premise intrigues me. Let's read on:
Uh... when did cyberpunk become about fighting hate groups?
More about fighting hate groups? I guess this is really a big thing in this game.
This is 90-degrees off. "Tech without ethics" makes everything worse, not just social inequality. And the wealthy want to cement their power over everyone, not just marginalized communities. This focus has me worried.
There's something weird going on with that statement. When did anyone think that cybering up makes you a minority? Usually the theme is that cybering up makes you less than human.
What exactly does marginalized mean? Can my PC be non-marginalized?
Is does? I think that good cyberpunk explores what it means to be human, the disintegration of government, corporate feudalism, the relationship of memories to identity, treachery and trust, etc.
I think it's possible to separate creator from content; some less than stellar people have created amazing works. But if I want to have "intrigues on a space station" I have a variety of other options that don't have built-in identity politics. This doesn't look like a cyberpunk game, it looks like "SJW Fantasies in the Near Future."
Sadly, the asshattery is baked into the DNA of the game, which turned me off. Your criticisms are spot-on. Well put.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091970Sadly, the asshattery is baked into the DNA of the game, which turned me off. Your criticisms are spot-on. Well put.
I found the focus on communities a little weird. Lots of cyberpunk I've seen is about the struggles of individuals and communities are secondary (at best).
I don't want to role-play as a cyber-ANTIFA character who is fighting for free wi-fi while trying to de-platform Earth-nationalist
groups.
I thought this bit was weird:
FORTRAN B. GOODE, A wannabe preacher with a gun. Goode
describes himself as a transhumanist; if you didn’t
know what that was before you met him you’d assume
it means “angry transphobe”.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091947Uh... when did cyberpunk become about fighting hate groups?
More about fighting hate groups? I guess this is really a big thing in this game.
This is 90-degrees off. "Tech without ethics" makes everything worse, not just social inequality. And the wealthy want to cement their power over everyone, not just marginalized communities. This focus has me worried.
There's something weird going on with that statement. When did anyone think that cybering up makes you a minority? Usually the theme is that cybering up makes you less than human.
What exactly does marginalized mean? Can my PC be non-marginalized?
Is does? I think that good cyberpunk explores what it means to be human, the disintegration of government, corporate feudalism, the relationship of memories to identity, treachery and trust, etc.
I think it's possible to separate creator from content; some less than stellar people have created amazing works. But if I want to have "intrigues on a space station" I have a variety of other options that don't have built-in identity politics. This doesn't look like a cyberpunk game, it looks like "SJW Fantasies in the Near Future."
1+2: Its cropped up on occasion. Usually either anti-cyborg hate groups, anti-android, or anti-test-tube babies, occasionally anti-biomod. I'd have to backtrack to find some good examples. Some were a part of the story, others were background. Player Piano may be a proto example. Anti robot groups boiling out into city wide riots. Its also part of the backstory of the Matrix. The machines tried friendly approaches but hate groups rioted and destroyed them and it escalated from there.
3: More importantly alot of cyberpunk stories are about the characters trying to make a big haul and get off rich, or at least pay their bills. Rather capitalistic huh?
4: I've seen it in some sci-fi. Cant think of any in cyberpunk though. The cases I recall cybernetics meant you had sold off a limb for money. Or in one setting I believe cyborgs were a working class and the treatments were mandatory to do the jobs. Been a long time so could be wrong. But overall it made the cyborgs more like 2nd class citizens or indentured servants than a 'minority'. Thats a new one and yeah it comes across as odd when you look at some of the other statements. YMMV and the author may have just misused the term when they really meant 2nd class citizen or somesuch.
5: Seems they mean the outcasts and non-conformists. Which is a staple of cyberpunk. But that brings up the question. Can the PCs not also play police? Detectives? Investigators? and other non-marginalized roles? Can they be entertainers? Workers?
6: Depends on the book. A few have explored how the tech is used and abused. Or looks at things from an AI or artificial perspective. Or economics. Crime drama. You name it, someone has likely taken a crack at writing it.
6.5: I am not sure it is all identity politics. Least the stuff you exampled can be read a few different ways. I assume theres something elsewhere in the book that puts an agenda spin on this?
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1091980I don't want to role-play as a cyber-ANTIFA character who is fighting for free wi-fi while trying to de-platform Earth-nationalist
groups.
I thought this bit was weird:
FORTRAN B. GOODE, A wannabe preacher with a gun. Goode
describes himself as a transhumanist; if you didn't
know what that was before you met him you'd assume
it means "angry transphobe".
Who the fuck thinks Transhuman = Transphobe? This is actually in the RPG?
Also note to the admin: The site was flipping out and stating something in the text was a non-english character?
The Left has tried to change the meaning of words to the point any interesting nuance of good cyberpunk is now lost in their Newspeak. This is relevant in things such as how capitalism perceived in cyberpunk or what trans-humanism stories are really about (hint: it's not a thinly-veiled agenda used to bludgeon those who disagree with you).
Quote from: Omega;1091986Who the fuck thinks Transhuman = Transphobe? This is actually in the RPG?
The game is written for SJWs to play. It's not for normies all that much. Democrats might still like it though. All of my GURPS Transhuman Space books are incorrect now in their meanings.
I think these nuts will meet some stiff resistance from the various transhuman themed RPGs out there.
Transhumanist Sci-fi is also the most modern Sci-fi that extrapolates off of the latest science.
No you can't co-op a genre. You guys still talking about Shadowrun?
Jesus Fucking Christ, how many more pages are you guys going to go on about how Ettin's game is SJW shit instead of Cyberpunk.
Of course it's SJW shit.
It's Ettin.
Separating author from work is admirable, but insane cultists are ok to dismiss I think.
Ok, ok. My bad, didn't mean to derail everything.
Someone tell me about Interface Zero. I picked up a bundle of, well I think it was everything, from Drivethru for dirt cheap but haven't had time to read any of it. I noticed that there are a bunch of versions: Savage Worlds, True20, Fate, Modern20, Pathfinder. Do any of these work better than the others or is it all a matter of system preference?
Compared to some other cyberpunk settings what's IZ got going for it or what's it lacking that I would need to either handwave or houserule?
Quote from: rgalex;1092010Ok, ok. My bad, didn't mean to derail everything.
Someone tell me about Interface Zero. I picked up a bundle of, well I think it was everything, from Drivethru for dirt cheap but haven't had time to read any of it. I noticed that there are a bunch of versions: Savage Worlds, True20, Fate, Modern20, Pathfinder. Do any of these work better than the others or is it all a matter of system preference?
Compared to some other cyberpunk settings what's IZ got going for it or what's it lacking that I would need to either handwave or houserule?
IFZ is the kitchen-sink of Cyberpunk. It's got everything including shit you might not even want.
I prefer the Savage Worlds system to run it (plus it's the most supported). "But I'm not going to tell you your business on what you should use". (Just kidding, I am.You should use Savage Worlds or convert it to Interlock. Don't be silly).
Setting - this is something that matters that rarely gets discussed. The pseudo-history of all cyberpunk settings matter. They speak directly to the fact that while Shadowrun/CP2020/GURPS Cyberpunk etc. etc. all do the same things, the context of the settings matter. In fact, I'd say outside of the mechanics of task-resolution, they're the only things that fundamentally separate them. Shadowrun without magic can BE CP2020 with different system under the hood. So IFZ's big conceit is that instead of magic - the big "thing" is Psionics. It's a thing. But not like magic in Shadowrun, basically government experimentation MK-Ultra type stuff worked and now there are a strain of people that can develop psionics, which makes them freak in a world filled with FREAKY shit.
IFZ has normal humans, humans 2.0 (gene-modified), human/animal hybrids, synthetic humans (ala Blade Runner), Androids, and many other things. So it de-facto delves into trans-humanism or is dancing on the threshold of it. Which is fine. Their netrunning is a thing - and it's practical, not VR simulation mini-gaming. And all the usual cyberpunk tropes are there - mega corps, etc. What is REALLY good about it, is since it's using Savage Worlds the gear scales to *really* crazy levels. Powered armor, mechs, even spaceships. So you get the full range of near-future tech all under one hood with very little "tack-on" feel. It's pretty complete and scales extremely well.
NOW... that said... if you're wanting something mechanically granular where the abstraction of classes of firearms are exacting... Savage Worlds ain't gonna do it. If you want to streamlined play for some run-n-gun over-the-top alternative to Shadowrun/CP2020 - this is your jam.
Edit: Houserules - either you like Psionics or you don't. I don't think the game needs it (though it is a big part of the setting - you can ignore it. Psionically active people are rare by conceit). You might want to use Setting Edges to raise/lower the grit-factor. Depends how you like it. There is nothing in the game systemwise I'd recommend without knowing specifically what you want out of your flavor of cyberpunk. But I'm pretty confident that Savage Worlds can accomodate nearly anything you're looking for with ease.
Couple of others not mentioned.
Underground: Somewhat like Chromosome this one leans to biotech more than cybertech if I recall right. Its a pretty weird setting with a bit of a Judge Dredd feel to it.
Bubblegum Crisis: Another R Talsorian RPG that one of my players has. Pretty good adaption of the anime series.
Dominion-Tank Police: another anime adaption.
Stars without Number: This is an odd one but a player suggested it because of the Polychrome expansion. Have not seen it yet so cannot say if it is viable or not?
Hc Svnt Dracones: Ine of my players backed this and has been really into it since it came out. Cyberpunk, biopunk, and more. I've only had a glance at it so far so can not as yet comment on the system.
Quote from: Omega;1092055Stars without Number: This is an odd one but a player suggested it because of the Polychrome expansion. Have not seen it yet so cannot say if it is viable or not?
I suggested it in the opening post as well. Unfortunately it's one of the SWN pdfs that I don't have. I read a review on Drive-thru RPG which makes me think that it won't work as well as I thought. "Polychrome" is not so much a cyberpunk supplement, but the name of a planet:
Quote from: Drive-thru reviewFirst off, this is a world book. I went in expecting something akin to skyward steel or relics of the lost but that's not what this is... It adds some new features to hacking but these are quite shallow compared to the 2E beta... On a second point the cyberware was seriously disappointing for a "cyberpunk" adventure. It has 17 implants/augments 5 of which of which are included in the 2E Beta and while this made them first it doesn't change the fact that they are now available for free.
While I love Sine Nomine's work, I want more than 17 augments. If someone has the pdf, please let us know your impression.
Quote from: Omega;1091986Also note to the admin: The site was flipping out and stating something in the text was a non-english character?
Sometimes it does that when you cut and paste something with quote marks in it. Type over the quote marks and it should work.
Quote from: Aglondir;1092081Sometimes it does that when you cut and paste something with quote marks in it. Type over the quote marks and it should work.
Or, apparently, just "Go Advanced" - I had a similar issue which I reported, and it appears to be a bug in the Quick Reply feature, but is not present in Advanced mode.
Quote from: Aglondir;1092080I suggested it in the opening post as well. Unfortunately it's one of the SWN pdfs that I don't have. I read a review on Drive-thru RPG which makes me think that it won't work as well as I thought. "Polychrome" is not so much a cyberpunk supplement, but the name of a planet:
While I love Sine Nomine's work, I want more than 17 augments. If someone has the pdf, please let us know your impression.
One of my players has a version from some sort of package. I had a glance over quick. Reads alot like Necromunda. Except theres just one city and the outside environ is absolutely lethal. It is though a cyberpunk setting and has some rules for netrunning and other stables of the genre. Also a handfull of new cyberware. I assume there is more in the core book? But has some tools and tables for rolling up some elements on the fly and such. YMMV on its viability. Looks like the PDF is up on Drive Thru for 5$.
The free version of Stars Without Number pdf has 24 different kinds of cyber implants.
I'm not sure an OSR game pdf get more thorough.
Since I'm a Traveller fanboy, the one I've played and enjoyed is Paul Elliott's Zaibatsu (https://www.paulelliottbooks.com/zaibatsu.html), which uses slightly modified Cepheus Engine rules. The game is pretty much Neuromancer: The RPG.
The author J Arcane used to post here. He wrote the excellent Hulks & Horrors OSR D&D in Space RPG.
Here's his free OSR(ish) cyberpunk supplement. It's his take on CP and Shadowrun.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/121828/Welcome-to-Neuro-City
Quote from: Aglondir;1091947Uh... when did cyberpunk become about fighting hate groups?
That was an element in Shadowrun with the Humanitas groups who didn't like all the monster-people running around.
Race war isn't a bad theme for near future cyberpunk. AKA, identity politics leads to mass voluntary segregation and then racial animosities explode in violence. Of course, in that scenario all groups who are not "your group" are "hate groups".
Quote from: Aglondir;1091947When did anyone think that cybering up makes you a minority? Usually the theme is that cybering up makes you less than human.
It's not a bad theme IF the cybernetics are crap. AKA, if the future is poor people selling off their good meat for cheap electronics, then anyone with cybernetics would be looked down upon by those who kept their meat.
However, in RPGs, cyber bits are always better than flesh bits.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091947What exactly does marginalized mean?
In reality, it should mean those groups which do not have equal rights inside their society.
AKA, non-citizens in a corporate owned state. It's a common enough cyberpunk trope. AKA, you are either a corporate cog or you have no rights in their turf.
But in SJW land, it means being a pasty bitch with one hand on your dice and the other in your pants while you "roleplay" somebody with a tan.
Quote from: Aglondir;1091947Can my PC be non-marginalized?
Ugh. Why does this forum have so many Nazis???
:D
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1092144Since I'm a Traveller fanboy, the one I've played and enjoyed is Paul Elliott's Zaibatsu (https://www.paulelliottbooks.com/zaibatsu.html), which uses slightly modified Cepheus Engine rules. The game is pretty much Neuromancer: The RPG.
Been wondering about Zaibatsu! If you can, please post a full review in our Review section. Love to hear about it in actual play!
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1092144Since I'm a Traveller fanboy, the one I've played and enjoyed is Paul Elliott's Zaibatsu (https://www.paulelliottbooks.com/zaibatsu.html), which uses slightly modified Cepheus Engine rules. The game is pretty much Neuromancer: The RPG.
Thanks, that's what I'm looking for. I was going to try to build it myself with Cepheus + MongTrav Cybernetics.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092147AKA, non-citizens in a corporate owned state. It's a common enough cyberpunk trope. AKA, you are either a corporate cog or you have no rights in their turf.
That could be a cool game. Citizenship costs money, the PC's can't afford it, so they are treated as "non-persons." Together, they fight the Man! The trouble is there's no reason to fight the Man any longer when you get enough cash to buy citizenship (and players are always getting more cash in a cyberpunk game.) It would probably work better if Big State was the Man, and there was no way you could ever escape your lot.
I think I will publish this as an OSR RPG. The premise: The players are the second wave of reality dissidents, fighting a "Big Brother" called the Department, that rules everything around me. The Department's "Moderators" determine what you can say and think, as well as what your job is, what you can eat, and if you are eligible for state-run health care. If you rebel, you are NAGF (Not A Good Fit) and unperson-ed. The PCs are hackers, trying to break into the Department's data vaults, and cybered-up mercs with monofilament katanas fighting government shocktroopers. I will call my game
SWORD DREAM
Quote from: Aglondir;1092152Thanks, that's what I'm looking for. I was going to try to build it myself with Cepheus + MongTrav Cybernetics.
I can give it a go. It may be a day or two before I get to it. I'll post a follow-up here when I do.
Edit: My first thought was, "Wait. We have a reviews section???"
Found another one: Remember Tomorrow.
QuoteRemember Tomorrow is a quick and dirty near-future "cyberpunk" game written by Gregor Hutton (Three Sixteen and Best Friends) with a cover from illodeli.com by Jon Hodgson. It's a framework for making near-future stories, now, reflecting the short fiction and novels of Gibson, McAuley, Noon et al.
Remember Tomorrow is a role-playing game set in the near future. Look at the world today, now flash it forward twenty minutes into the future. Sky Cars: Check. Memory Couriers: Check. Everything Else: Slightly Changed, huh, how about that?
Remember Tomorrow is set in a place called Somewhere. Maybe it was once Glasgow, Milan, Reno, Auckland or Hong Kong. Everywhere in the world is Somewhere. Are you Ready, Willing and Able?
Remember Tomorrow features:
Easy character generation;
An ensemble cast of PCs and Factions;
Goal-oriented stories built in play;
GMless, scene-based resolution.
GMless? Eh, no thanks. But the writing and tone in the preview look good.
Found another: Dark Orbital, by Better Mousetrap Games.
QuoteDark Orbital is a nasty place. The Flats and Mirrors are packed with people - humans and uplifts alike - and trapped there by cold, Hard economics. They live on the trash of the rich people living in the Rings - reusing, recycling, and repurposing that trash into their own technology. Put the punk back in Cyberpunk with Dark Orbital!
Looking at the quickstart, it looks more like a sci-fi game with animal uplifted races. But there is cyberware, and the tone is definitely cyberpunk.
As promised: https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40751-Zaibatsu-mini-review
If you want to play a Cyberpunk game and are a fan of DCC, some fans got you covered (so far only 2 issues)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JS389vKS_2eIPY-TrR034TI3_Vh_apFR/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aDxo-yNBDvov1xBpXfSVhE_G5CosIDPR/view
http://csc-rpg.byethost32.com/?i=1
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1091363Watch this video, and then find a tabletop RPG that best does it using a system you like.
[video=youtube;qIcTM8WXFjk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIcTM8WXFjk[/youtube]
I see your post and I raise
[video=youtube;wexoPcjgLIE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wexoPcjgLIE[/youtube]
Cyberpunk, Dieselpunk, steampunk don't hold a candle to surviving the real sprawl. Can you handle Burgerpunk?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3536[/ATTACH]
You call that a sprawl? How quaint (https://dissolve.com/video/Aerial-shot-urban-sprawl-Los-Angeles-California-United-royalty-free-stock-video-footage/001-D1748-95-005).
Quote from: tenbones;1092959You call that a sprawl? How quaint (https://dissolve.com/video/Aerial-shot-urban-sprawl-Los-Angeles-California-United-royalty-free-stock-video-footage/001-D1748-95-005).
Quaint indeed (https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-42344889)
Although...
the idea about warring gangs of fastfood tribalists is *FANTASTIC* in a cyberpunk setting.
Burgerpunk!
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092970Quaint indeed (https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-42344889)
Mexico City <> Los Angeles
LOL I'll take either.
Quote from: tenbones;1092976Although...
the idea about warring gangs of fastfood tribalists is *FANTASTIC* in a cyberpunk setting.
Burgerpunk!
Wasn't there a cannibal gang? SoylentBurger!
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092980Wasn't there a cannibal gang? SoylentBurger!
And the vegan gang. SoyBurger.
A decade ago, I heard about actual violence between representatives for Coke vs. Pepsi in Latin America. I ported that right over into a SR game because its got that perfect insanity between "holy shit, we're murdering each other over carbonated sugar water" and "hey, whoever dominates this market is gonna make bank".
So I'd totally run Burgerpunk.
All I can say is... given the last few years in politics and social-issues here in the States...
My next Cyberpunk game is going to be *really* interesting.
Quote from: tenbones;1093533All I can say is... given the last few years in politics and social-issues here in the States...
My next Cyberpunk game is going to be *really* interesting.
In what way?
Cyberpunk (from the 90's) seems on the surface to be a right-wing fantasy. In many settings the government has splintered into smaller nations (often including a "Dixie" nation) and is ineffectual in reigning in the corporations. The PC's are "rugged individuals" rather than members of a collective. On the other hand, corporations are portrayed as corrupt and The Man that players "stick it to." Perhaps it is apolitical, nihilist even.
The general mood of generations M and Z is that capitalism is evil and the government will save them. Their version of Cyberpunk would probably be government agents fighting the corps.
If I were to make a political cyberpunk, it would be corporate agents (or freelancers) fighting Big State. But honestly I think I'd just stick with nihilism or apolitical themes.
Quote from: Aglondir;1093547In what way?
Cyberpunk (from the 90's) seems on the surface to be a right-wing fantasy. In many settings the government has splintered into smaller nations (often including a "Dixie" nation) and is ineffectual in reigning in the corporations. The PC's are "rugged individuals" rather than members of a collective. On the other hand, corporations are portrayed as corrupt and The Man that players "stick it to." Perhaps it is apolitical, nihilist even.
To adjust that to the general mood of generations M and Z, capitalism is evil and the government will save them. Their version of Cybperpunk would be government agents fighting the corps.
If I were to make it political, it would be the corporate agents (or freelancers) fighting Big State. But honestly I think I'd just stick with nihilism or apolitical themes.
From the perspective of my players.
My players tended to consider all the SJW stuff (before it was coined as a term), and crass commercialism) that proliferates CP2020 with a "whatever" attitude. Largely just ignored it as stuff that didn't matter to them. 30-years later they most certainly care, because the cyberpunk dystopia now feels like it's looming for them. It's in their sights. Many of them have been directly impacted by the proliferation of leftism personally in their lives in varying ways.
It's not so much that's they're now magically collectivists - hardly. But now all that propaganda has more meaning for them. It feels sharper for them. Granted I'm speculating on what exactly my first campaign will be (I have LOTS of options)... but I know my players will act with heightened knee-jerk resistance to some SJW stuff in any kind of modern context.
Literally one of them quoted this to me this morning in a DM...
QuoteI'll be honest, right now that's the only drawback with CP Red. It's almost like it might not be escapism, lol
I can tell that they will be much more focused on what they engage in. But it's going to be interesting. Very interesting.
I've just started running Interface Zero and I agree, the psuedo-history is top notch. When I read the section on Canada I was sure the guy was Canadian - he isn't.
Quote from: Furious George;1111839I've just started running Interface Zero and I agree, the psuedo-history is top notch. When I read the section on Canada I was sure the guy was Canadian - he isn't.
An Actual Canadian wrote the portions of Canada in Interface Zero 2.0
Quote from: Aglondir;1091283Tell me about Cyberpunk RPGs. Or even talk about Cyberpunk in general. For the bounds of the discussion, I'm not interested in Shadowrun. Here are some things I have found in a cursory search. Let me know if you have any experience with them.
Okay.
QuoteCorporation: Available right now on Bundle of Holding. I like the 2d10 roll-under system, but something is holding me back.
British take on Cyberpunk 2020. Mechanically similar but not identical. Flavorful but very much one man's mad idea run amok. The default assumption is literally the inverse of Cyberpunk, in that the characters are, in fact, The Man. Also, they are rather explicitly nigh-immortal tech-demigods, and treated very differently from 'ordinary people' by the rules from page 1. Psychics are a thing. Corporate Splats are perhaps somewhat akin to Vampire Clans more than what you might think of as 'employers'.
QuoteCyberpunk 2020: Sure it's dated, but in a good way. Is it still playable? What do you need to add, change, or delete to make the game work?
Yes. Nothing. Even the Game Designer (Mad Mike Pondsmith), has learned the hardway that tinkering with CP2020 is bad business, and the new Cyberpunk edition that is coming out is really nothing more than a half-assed setting update with some rule tweaks. Not perfect, Difficulty odds can break down at the high end, but fast and playable beats 'perfect math' anyday. I suppose the big 'change' is deciding how much you want to use, seeing as there are books for Power Armor and rules for Full Body Cyborgs that would shatter many games, among other things. Core is fine though.
QuoteGurps Cyberpunk: It looks really dated, in a bad way. I wonder why they haven't made a 4th edition version, even if just a PDF. Or have they?
This is Cyberpunk by way of Gibson, with mid-eighties understanding of hacking and internets. Very, very dated and utterly eclipsed culturally by teh Shadowrun/CP2020 ethos of cyberpunk in gaming. GURPS doesn't really need a Cyberpunk book per se, as GURPS treats Cybernetics the way they treat super-powers or being an alien, and a lot of that techno-dystopic future is handled in books like Bio-tech and so forth.
I don't have any experience with the rest of your list, but I'll point out that running a Cyberpunk game is clearly not a matter of rule set. Its a setting with some tropes that might need a bit of homebrewing, but can probably be run using whatever rules you favor once you've figured out how to get the setting you like, and the tropes you need. For the record, I can't think of any game that really gets hacking 'right', just various shades running the gamut from 'not unplayable' to 'dear god what were they thinking', and note that even CP2020 tends towards the dark half of that spectrum.
Not on your list is Eclipse Phase, which is Transhuman rather than Cyberpunk, but the divide tends to be more of attitude than anything else, adn honestly their Transhuman setting feels more 'Punk than most.
Other options:
Mongoose Traveller (1st ed) with the Cybernetics book gives you a working framework in a gritty system, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it personally. Fragged Empire has a lot of Cyberpunk Ethos, but is 'very far future' and might get wonky if pushed too hard into a more pure CP framework. Underground, if you can find it, gives a very Cyberpunk game, but 'low-ish' Superpowers replace Cybernetics by default. There are Cybernetics rules in a supplement, but they are... not up to Cyberpunk needs, lets say (ditto Shatterzone, which is also too far future/sci-fi, perhaps). Kuro Tensai is very Cyberpunk, if you are super weeb into Japan stuff, and don't mind a bit of horror supernatural mixed in. If you can find it (and I doubt you can) Maurader 2107 defaults to a CP2020 style of play pretty easily.
Also, you missed ICE's Cyberspace, which is a Rolemaster style contemporary of CP2020. Its not directly influenced, but approaches the ideas of Cyberpunk in a similar fashion, which makes for an interesting read. I think the setting is a bit more interesting, and defaults (core only) to better developed, but lagged as Pondsmith churned out supplements and ICE let Cyberspace languish with only two or three supplements, one of which was focused on an open air prison in Death Valley to the exclusion of all else... but the Europe Supplement gave us Sturmjesuiten, so there is that.
After rereading this I remembered a system Ive never played of even own based on the mega man franchise that might be of use .
Its called "the robotic age" by virtue of it's influances its going to be more of a trashumanist lean but might work.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/125430/The-Robotic-Age?manufacturers_id=5775
*note; To any one who's not familiar with megaman it pretty much turned in to trasehumanisem 101 with cyberpunk leanings in some games.
Quote from: Furious George;1111839I've just started running Interface Zero and I agree, the psuedo-history is top notch. When I read the section on Canada I was sure the guy was Canadian - he isn't.
Of course the pseudo-history is top notch! Canada is an imaginary place! :)
Welcome aboard theRPGsite Furious George!! Glad you found your way to our gloriously deplorable Mos Eisley of a forum!
Also, start a thread about Interface Zero! Always cool to hear what people are playing.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1091992The Left has tried to change the meaning of words to the point any interesting nuance of good cyberpunk is now lost in their Newspeak. This is relevant in things such as how capitalism perceived in cyberpunk or what trans-humanism stories are really about (hint: it's not a thinly-veiled agenda used to bludgeon those who disagree with you).
Post-modernism is illiteracy for smart people.
Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1092958Cyberpunk, Dieselpunk, steampunk don't hold a candle to surviving the real sprawl. Can you handle Burgerpunk?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3536[/ATTACH]
That's Breezewood, PA. Basically a knot of truck stops and fast food surrounding a turnpike exit. A couple miles out in the right direction and you're driving on dirt roads.
As a slight aside one of my favourite game settings of all time is A/State. Its kind of Dickensian Horror meets cyberpunk by the guys that did "Hot War" and "Cold City".
For me the Vibe and atmosphere of the setting is amazing. If you like the idea of a cyberpunk meets horror game appeals its well worth a look if you can find the books (I think the PDFs are on drive thru)
Blue Planet was pretty cyberpunk in tone and content if I remember rightly. It definitely had cybernetic and biological modifications. And the default campaign (or at least one of them) was about sticking it to the corporations. I reckon you could have Blue Planet on the other end of a wormhole from Cyberpunk Red.
I saw a playtest for a new edition recently (of Blue Planet). I vaguely remember not being too impressed with some of the changes - think they might have added aspect/trait like mechanics to it.
For BRP-style systems there is River of Heaven (actually based on OpenQuest which is a slightly simplified BRP). It's hardish SF and "pre-transhuman" in feel - if your character gets too heavily modified, they go transhuman, like going insane in CoC.
Edt: I forgot Earth/Cybertech for 2300AD. Not so keen on the 2300AD system, and the whole idea of the line trying to do cyberpunk was like your dad having a midlife crisis and buying inappropriate clothes, but I'd love to run something in the default setting of Libreville, the megacity at the bottom of Earth's space elevator. It was in Rotten to the Core. All sorts of nasties could come down that elevator. Or the PCs might need to escape up it. Season to taste or not with the broader 2300AD background of a post-nuclear-war world where the French Empire is the dominant power.
Geebus Wept, I can't believe I forgot to mention Polaris!
Cyberpunk Post-post apocalyptic underwater dystopia! From the French!
Would I recommend it? Well, the books a fucken beauooootiful. THe system is... functional.
Also: Torg is back out. I don't like the new edition, which is totes a stealth 'Savage Worlds' with just enough old Torg that they can pretend to cater to fans of the original, plus mandatory Ulissies Speile card sales tactics, but you do have not one but TWO cyberpunk settings to play with, but if we're gonna count that, you have the new edition of Feng Shui which does allow for some cybernetics, and the entire idea is sort of double reversed kung fu flick cyberpunk (or sometimes just kung fu flick... its Feng Shui...)
Though I think I'd avoid Feng Shui for Cyberpunk, and I'd try to get classic TORG over the new stuff.
Quote from: Aglondir;1093547In what way?
Cyberpunk (from the 90's) seems on the surface to be a right-wing fantasy. In many settings the government has splintered into smaller nations (often including a "Dixie" nation) and is ineffectual in reigning in the corporations. The PC's are "rugged individuals" rather than members of a collective. On the other hand, corporations are portrayed as corrupt and The Man that players "stick it to." Perhaps it is apolitical, nihilist even.
The general mood of generations M and Z is that capitalism is evil and the government will save them. Their version of Cyberpunk would probably be government agents fighting the corps.
If I were to make a political cyberpunk, it would be corporate agents (or freelancers) fighting Big State. But honestly I think I'd just stick with nihilism or apolitical themes.
The whole "-punk" aesthetic was always left-wing. Rather than rugged individuals, the PCs were loose members of anarchist collectives of the type that squatted in inner-city dwellings, and raged against the machine. Judge Dredd was more the right-wing fantasy.
Quote from: Spike;1112229Geebus Wept, I can't believe I forgot to mention Polaris!
Cyberpunk Post-post apocalyptic underwater dystopia! From the French!
Would I recommend it? Well, the books a fucken beauooootiful. THe system is... functional.
Also: Torg is back out. I don't like the new edition, which is totes a stealth 'Savage Worlds' with just enough old Torg that they can pretend to cater to fans of the original, plus mandatory Ulissies Speile card sales tactics, but you do have not one but TWO cyberpunk settings to play with, but if we're gonna count that, you have the new edition of Feng Shui which does allow for some cybernetics, and the entire idea is sort of double reversed kung fu flick cyberpunk (or sometimes just kung fu flick... its Feng Shui...)
Though I think I'd avoid Feng Shui for Cyberpunk, and I'd try to get classic TORG over the new stuff.
TORG Eternity is a good game, and the standardized mechanics really help keep it balanced. It actually has three cyberpunk settings: Cyberpapacy, Pan-Pacifica, and Tharkold. Each is a take emphasizing different aspects of cyberpunk (and one of them even does it with almost zero cybernetics)..
Quote from: HappyDaze;1112301TORG Eternity is a good game, and the standardized mechanics really help keep it balanced. It actually has three cyberpunk settings: Cyberpapacy, Pan-Pacifica, and Tharkold. Each is a take emphasizing different aspects of cyberpunk (and one of them even does it with almost zero cybernetics)..
You do you, man. Personally, I'm done with games that expect you to power up by collecting micro-rules like some sort of absurd lego-man adding bits to himself.
Thats on top of the insult that is putting the different Setting Rules on cards... that don't come with the game and have to be bought separately.
Quote from: Aglondir;1092153...
I think I will publish this as an OSR RPG. The premise: The players are the second wave of reality dissidents, fighting a "Big Brother" called the Department, that rules everything around me. The Department's "Moderators" determine what you can say and think, as well as what your job is, what you can eat, and if you are eligible for state-run health care. If you rebel, you are NAGF (Not A Good Fit) and unperson-ed. The PCs are hackers, trying to break into the Department's data vaults, and cybered-up mercs with monofilament katanas fighting government shocktroopers. I will call my game
SWORD DREAM
I'd buy that.
Quote from: tenbones;1093551From the perspective of my players.
My players tended to consider all the SJW stuff (before it was coined as a term), and crass commercialism) that proliferates CP2020 with a "whatever" attitude. Largely just ignored it as stuff that didn't matter to them. 30-years later they most certainly care, because the cyberpunk dystopia now feels like it's looming for them. It's in their sights. Many of them have been directly impacted by the proliferation of leftism personally in their lives in varying ways.
It's not so much that's they're now magically collectivists - hardly. But now all that propaganda has more meaning for them. It feels sharper for them.
...
I think this is what kills the fun in the cyberpunk genre for me. I'm a huge fan of all things cyberpunk, but when the original themes/tropes of the genre become real or very close to it, I'm left wondering what's left to explore.
Ostensibly, cyberpunk generally comes back to:
1. Big corporations (usually the antagonist)
2. Small government (usually not too relevant because it's overshadowed by the corps)
3. High tech exists
4. Yet still a low life segment of society exists
5. All with Cool Dudes trying to carve out a life amongst it all
And while we don't yet have fully replaceable robotic arms and such, there are aspects of those tropes that come close to reflecting modern life. Anyone remember when Google's motto was "Don't be evil"? Well, not anymore.
If we remove the words "corporation" and "government", it becomes:
1. Big entity(s) have lots of power (usually the antagonist)
2. Small entity(s) have little power (usually not too relevant because it's overshadowed by the Big Entities)
3. High tech exists
4. Yet still a low life segment of society exists
5. All with Cool Dudes trying to carve out a life amongst it all
To get to my point: Aglondir, you inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Big corporations lording it over ineffectual, weak governments with their superior tech isn't terribly interesting as a theme to explore (although it can still be fun). A much more interesting theme to explore is what hasn't happened yet (what cyberpunk is all about, from my understanding), but is completely possible if, say, current governments harness the tech ("big data" in our case) the corporations have created and abuse it to spy on and control their citizens. The idea of a cyberpunk universe like 1984 seems like such a cool place to explore creatively, whereas modern cyberpunk offerings seems to be getting stale for my taste.
I'm hoping someone out there comes up new, fresh ideas in the cyberpunk genre, in any medium, whether it be movies, books, or games, because right now, the default genre of cyberpunk where the corps have all the power seems too close to reality for my liking.
Quote from: SirBercelak;1112383I'd buy that.
I think this is what kills the fun in the cyberpunk genre for me. I'm a huge fan of all things cyberpunk, but when the original themes/tropes of the genre become real or very close to it, I'm left wondering what's left to explore.
Ostensibly, cyberpunk generally comes back to:
1. Big corporations (usually the antagonist)
2. Small government (usually not too relevant because it's overshadowed by the corps)
3. High tech exists
4. Yet still a low life segment of society exists
5. All with Cool Dudes trying to carve out a life amongst it all
And while we don't yet have fully replaceable robotic arms and such, there are aspects of those tropes that come close to reflecting modern life. Anyone remember when Google's motto was "Don't be evil"? Well, not anymore.
If we remove the words "corporation" and "government", it becomes:
1. Big entity(s) have lots of power (usually the antagonist)
2. Small entity(s) have little power (usually not too relevant because it's overshadowed by the Big Entities)
3. High tech exists
4. Yet still a low life segment of society exists
5. All with Cool Dudes trying to carve out a life amongst it all
To get to my point: Aglondir, you inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Big corporations lording it over ineffectual, weak governments with their superior tech isn't terribly interesting as a theme to explore (although it can still be fun). A much more interesting theme to explore is what hasn't happened yet (what cyberpunk is all about, from my understanding), but is completely possible if, say, current governments harness the tech ("big data" in our case) the corporations have created and abuse it to spy on and control their citizens. The idea of a cyberpunk universe like 1984 seems like such a cool place to explore creatively, whereas modern cyberpunk offerings seems to be getting stale for my taste.
I'm hoping someone out there comes up new, fresh ideas in the cyberpunk genre, in any medium, whether it be movies, books, or games, because right now, the default genre of cyberpunk where the corps have all the power seems too close to reality for my liking.
My take is actually the opposite I think that the current state of things makes cyber punk even more important not less.
Also there is a game to play 1984 its called paranoia I've only ever read threw XP edition which was very tongue in cheek but could very much be played as 1984 if you wanted to.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1112406My take is actually the opposite I think that the current state of things makes cyber punk even more important not less.
Also there is a game to play 1984 its called paranoia I've only ever read threw XP edition which was very tongue in cheek but could very much be played as 1984 if you wanted to.
That's interesting. What makes you say that? What about current events, the state of technology, and the conflict of corporate vs. governmental makes it more relevant? I ask because I genuinely want to enjoy the themes and tropes of the cyberpunk genre and I'd like to know how you see it differently than me. It could breathe life back into my cyberpunk games.
And I've never had much of a high opinion of Paranoia, sadly. It definitely looks like a fun game, but not crunchy enough for me. Or, dare I say it, serious enough.
Quote from: Orphan81;1111859An Actual Canadian wrote the portions of Canada in Interface Zero 2.0
Good to know - thanks.
Yeah, that's one of the problems of Cyberpunk games. Now that we are well within the "How we Got Here" history chapter of any Cyberpunk Game, and the writing is on the wall, playing the game as the ones fighting the power just reinforces the fact that in the real world, you're one of the narcissistic consumers that walks through life like a good little Sarariman, not seeing the chain around your neck or even worse, not caring. It strikes way too close to home.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1112522Yeah, that's one of the problems of Cyberpunk games. Now that we are well within the "How we Got Here" history chapter of any Cyberpunk Game, and the writing is on the wall, playing the game as the ones fighting the power just reinforces the fact that in the real world, you're one of the narcissistic consumers that walks through life like a good little Sarariman, not seeing the chain around your neck or even worse, not caring. It strikes way too close to home.
That is a good summation of my problem with cyberpunk games. The can still be fun, but they're not what they used to be: exploring what could happen if corporations dominated the world. We're already there to a certain extent (I even work for a big, multi-national corporation), so now the cyberpunk genre is at a crossroads: should it broaden out into sci-fi and ultimately become not very cyberpunk-y, or continue to remain unchanged and ultimately become less and less relevant thematically.
I remember trying to watch Netflix's show, Altered Carbon, and thinking, "Wow, this has great production value, but nothing really new." I never got passed the first episode because it seemed to be retreading known territory, just with Netflix money to make it look good (also, the opening firefight made me wince multiple times at the lack of tactics, so the show didn't start off strong for me).
Well I don't wanna go flying off the rails... and not wanting to dive into personal lives.
The reality is precisely what we accept. And the cyberpunk attitude is "I don't accept this" - the game is what one does about it.
There are emerging themes that inform new ground to cover in the cyberpunk genre. I think it's a little distressing to contemplate... but definitely gamifiable. I mentioned something about this in another thread that Spinachat asked me to post on (which I haven't... yet... for reasons) about putting down some ideas for an Redteam RPG.
I think it has WONDERFUL gaming potential. But it would be *extremely* controversial... I mean it's fine to play at ones table. But publication? HMMMMM....
It could be the Red Dawn of modern RPG's... very fitting for something like Cyberpunk. And while Home of the Brave covers it somewhat in CP2020, you only get to play in the aftermath. I'm a little more interested in playing through it... in a modern context.
Quote from: SirBercelak;1112523I remember trying to watch Netflix's show, Altered Carbon, and thinking, "Wow, this has great production value, but nothing really new." I never got passed the first episode because it seemed to be retreading known territory, just with Netflix money to make it look good (also, the opening firefight made me wince multiple times at the lack of tactics, so the show didn't start off strong for me).
I watched the first episode of Altered Carbon and had no plans to go further. Then a friend suggested I give it another chance. I watched the first episode again and still thought it wasn't good. My friend said "yeah, the first--OK, the first two episodes are weak, but it gets better" so I watched it again. He was right; it picked up around episode 3 and I enjoyed it overall. I did have to watch it with subtitles because some of the lines are so softly spoken compared to the other sounds that I couldn't make it out. Hilariously, one of the lines I couldn't make out just had the subtitle of <<
>>.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1111983After rereading this I remembered a system Ive never played of even own based on the mega man franchise that might be of use .
Its called "the robotic age" by virtue of it's influances its going to be more of a trashumanist lean but might work.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/125430/The-Robotic-Age?manufacturers_id=5775
*note; To any one who's not familiar with megaman it pretty much turned in to trasehumanisem 101 with cyberpunk leanings in some games.
I've played that game with the creator at Phoenix comicon when it came out. Had a good time although I can't recall the specifics of the system, but it was fast paced and with pregens we had no trouble getting into it. The creator is a good dude too!
This might be of interest to some of you:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/283725
I find the price tag a bit steep for a PDF...
Carbon 2185 | A Cyberpunk RPG Core Rulebook
QuotePlay as a Cyberpunk, a rebel refusing to live life by the rules of the oppressive megacorporations that rule San Francisco in this high action tabletop roleplaying game by Robert Marriner-Dodds.
Carbon 2185 gives you the chance to play in the cyberpunk worlds you've seen in movies, television shows, and video games.
The Core Rulebook is the only thing you need to run and play hundreds of hours of games in the world of Carbon 2185.
I remember looking at the Kickstarter, and I think I was more interested in the dice than the game itself, but decided not to in the end.
Quote from: SirBercelak;1112523That is a good summation of my problem with cyberpunk games. The can still be fun, but they're not what they used to be: exploring what could happen if corporations dominated the world. We're already there to a certain extent (I even work for a big, multi-national corporation), so now the cyberpunk genre is at a crossroads: should it broaden out into sci-fi and ultimately become not very cyberpunk-y, or continue to remain unchanged and ultimately become less and less relevant thematically.
...
Except not really one you scratch the surface.
The problem I have with the Cyberpunk genre is that the core conceit of the genre: Mega Corporations taking over from governments.
That just can't and would never happen in real life.
Like the Star trek "post-scarcity" Society. That parts of its fandom actually think is possible.
Which is why I prefer to play in Sci-Fantasy settings like Star Wars; I know its sword and planet pulp. I can mentally disengage and enjoy it for what it is.
Rather than most Cyperpunk settings, which trip my preposterous alarm, because they keep trying to retcon the rise of "mega corps" from a version of our reality.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1112406My take is actually the opposite I think that the current state of things makes cyber punk even more important not less.
The current state of thing hasn't made cyberpunk more relevant, but it has exposed just how silly some of Cyberpunk's main tropes are. In cyberpunk, the evil corporation are always arms manufacturers or drug companies, yet we live in a world where two of the most evil corporations are a company that makes animated movies for kids and another that your parents use to post pictures of their family and pets. Is your wet work gonna be to sabotage the latest TV show?
And anyone with a modern phone or laptop knows just how temperamental modern tech is. Imagine if your arm or eyeball flaked out as much as your smart phone. Not only that, but considering how pervasive tech is, all those fancy cybernetic implants are going to have shutdown switches that local police can use. And if you don't have that tech install, the FIRST thing that will happen to you when you are arrested is all your expense implants get removed. You'll be sitting in jail with no arms and no eyes.
And that's not even considering how a supposedly oppressive government is going to let people walk around with guns in the first place.
I think it's best just to treat Cyberpunk as a retro future and enjoy it for what it was.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1112564I watched the first episode of Altered Carbon and had no plans to go further. Then a friend suggested I give it another chance. I watched the first episode again and still thought it wasn't good. My friend said "yeah, the first--OK, the first two episodes are weak, but it gets better" so I watched it again. He was right; it picked up around episode 3 and I enjoyed it overall. I did have to watch it with subtitles because some of the lines are so softly spoken compared to the other sounds that I couldn't make it out. Hilariously, one of the lines I couldn't make out just had the subtitle of <<>>.
And it's goes to shit around episode 7, that's what you trying to make an almost amoral TERRORIST with some kinda of freedom fighter fighting against the horrible white rich people.
And really, doing the same flashback multiple times is fucking annoying, just stop it and get over with it.
Quote from: Jaeger;1112627Except not really one you scratch the surface.
The problem I have with the Cyberpunk genre is that the core conceit of the genre: Mega Corporations taking over from governments.
That just can't and would never happen in real life.
Like the Star trek "post-scarcity" Society. That parts of its fandom actually think is possible.
Which is why I prefer to play in Sci-Fantasy settings like Star Wars; I know its sword and planet pulp. I can mentally disengage and enjoy it for what it is.
Rather than most Cyperpunk settings, which trip my preposterous alarm, because they keep trying to retcon the rise of "mega corps" from a version of our reality.
All right, you got me there, boss. As a proud member of the Austrian school of economics, I heartily agree: it is impossible. However, I also play and enjoy games with elves and magic in the setting, so as far as believability in core setting conceits, I'd say corporations taking over the world is about as believable as elves and magic. Still, I understand what you mean. We all have a certain amount of acceptable incredulity towards a setting's foundational beliefs, and some settings just cross that line.
Quote from: tenbones;1112524...
The reality is precisely what we accept. And the cyberpunk attitude is "I don't accept this" - the game is what one does about it.
There are emerging themes that inform new ground to cover in the cyberpunk genre. I think it's a little distressing to contemplate... but definitely gamifiable.
...
That's a good point. It goes back to what I believe is foundational to cyberpunk, i.e. not just the technology and current events of the setting but also the attitudes (see point #5 I made in my previous post). That's the fun part of it. I would like to understand more about what themes you find potentially distressing to explore, but I won't press you. You've already given me a few ideas to contemplate for now.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1112629...
I think it's best just to treat Cyberpunk as a retro future and enjoy it for what it was.
That's also a good observation. And why I feel apathy towards the genre in general. I chuckled a bit at your descriptions of those two companies, but you're spot on. There's really nothing new in terms of themes or exploring beyond the current themes in the lastest cyberpunk media offerings, and re-treading the same, well-worn ground just isn't interesting. As tenbones pointed out, anything creatively new might be too controversial to sell commercially. Creatively, cyberpunk feels stagnated to me. I can still have a good game or two with my friends, but after that 'punk itch has been scratched, I'm not terribly interested in it again for a couple months.
Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1112631And it's goes to shit around episode 7, that's what you trying to make an almost amoral TERRORIST with some kinda of freedom fighter fighting against the horrible white rich people.
And really, doing the same flashback multiple times is fucking annoying, just stop it and get over with it.
I'm glad I stopped when I did then, hahaha.
Quote from: SirBercelak;1112714All right, you got me there, boss. As a proud member of the Austrian school of economics, I heartily agree: it is impossible. However, I also play and enjoy games with elves and magic in the setting, so as far as believability in core setting conceits, I'd say corporations taking over the world is about as believable as elves and magic. Still, I understand what you mean. We all have a certain amount of acceptable incredulity towards a setting's foundational beliefs, and some settings just cross that line.
...
LOL, We come from a similar direction; it's my understanding of the Austrian Economic theory and how corporations relate to, and are in fact creatures of government, that make the traditional cyberpunk "corporations taking over" conceit hard to dismiss in play.
The reason I find it easier to set aside my"world logic" a bit in Elf games and "sword and planet" Sci-fi; is that neither genre tries to make a
direct connection to modern day circumstances when you are reading the setting info.
Now I do think that one can capture the feel of traditional "cyberpunk", Without the "Mega corps Rule!" meme. But it would involve writing the background setting so that it more resembles a high-tech version of the Great Depression/Economic collapse + wild west lawlessness + urban Sprawl + Government incompetence/corruption + surviving Big/Mega? Corporations running a amok in the Chaos, that society seems largely unable to pull itself out of...
Quote from: The_Shadow;1112255The whole "-punk" aesthetic was always left-wing.
I'd say it was more anarchistic than left wing, at least in an economic sense. Thinking of 70s punk, certainly in the UK, it strikes me more as youth rebelling against the system set up to reward their parents' generation after the war. Cosy but increasingly obviously dysfunctional corporatism, more or less 1950s morals. There was a fair amount of usage of Nazi symbols, basically to shock older people. To me, the essence of punk is rebellion against a system perceived to be corrupt and rigged against you, with a youthful take-it-all-the-way style and energy, rather than the compromises that usually come with age.
Quote from: SirBercelak;1112523That is a good summation of my problem with cyberpunk games. The can still be fun, but they're not what they used to be: exploring what could happen if corporations dominated the world. We're already there to a certain extent (I even work for a big, multi-national corporation), so now the cyberpunk genre is at a crossroads: should it broaden out into sci-fi and ultimately become not very cyberpunk-y, or continue to remain unchanged and ultimately become less and less relevant thematically.
I can't really get this. In the US you just had 8 years of Obama smacking any kind of business that moved with a random regulation machine, and then Trump starts a trade war with China that business lobbies hate and can do fuck-all about. How the hell can that be depicted as a world run by corporations?
How about Cybergeneration?
I hated it when I first read the core book and have never revisited. There must be some fans though, even here.
I'm personally rather fond of Cybergeneration, perhaps much as I am of certain bad movies. Looking at it now, you can see where the wheels on Pondsmith's vision of Cyberpunk were starting to come off, but its honestly kinda neat, taken by itself and not part of a greater whole.
Of course, it DID come out during the White Wolf Era, so you not only have a 'splat' class in your specific nano-plague mutant superpower, but a SECOND Splat Class in your 'yo-gang'. Oh, Mad Mike... sigh...
Quote from: Marchand;1112769I'd say it was more anarchistic than left wing, at least in an economic sense. Thinking of 70s punk, certainly in the UK, it strikes me more as youth rebelling against the system set up to reward their parents' generation after the war. Cosy but increasingly obviously dysfunctional corporatism, more or less 1950s morals. There was a fair amount of usage of Nazi symbols, basically to shock older people. To me, the essence of punk is rebellion against a system perceived to be corrupt and rigged against you, with a youthful take-it-all-the-way style and energy, rather than the compromises that usually come with age.
I can't really get this. In the US you just had 8 years of Obama smacking any kind of business that moved with a random regulation machine, and then Trump starts a trade war with China that business lobbies hate and can do fuck-all about. How the hell can that be depicted as a world run by corporations?
Random regulation machine still turned into an ATM when the businesses started to fail. And the only business lobbies that don't like what Trump is doing are the ones looking after small business, the major corps just shrugged and adjusted supply chain routing to their predetermined, planned alternatives in the event of chinese market disruption. Which the chinese corps did as well, meaning that there's a lot of stuff changing hands in the Southeast Asia now, then changing hands again.
"Nah, we bought these microprocessors in Manilla. No chinese tax for them, thanks."
Quote from: Jaeger;1112627Except not really one you scratch the surface.
The problem I have with the Cyberpunk genre is that the core conceit of the genre: Mega Corporations taking over from governments.
That just can't and would never happen in real life.
You are dangerously naive then. Corps control more and more of the government. Just usually not out in the open.
Quote from: Jaeger;1112733LOL, We come from a similar direction; it's my understanding of the Austrian Economic theory and how corporations relate to, and are in fact creatures of government, that make the traditional cyberpunk "corporations taking over" conceit hard to dismiss in play.
The reason I find it easier to set aside my"world logic" a bit in Elf games and "sword and planet" Sci-fi; is that neither genre tries to make a direct connection to modern day circumstances when you are reading the setting info.
Now I do think that one can capture the feel of traditional "cyberpunk", Without the "Mega corps Rule!" meme. But it would involve writing the background setting so that it more resembles a high-tech version of the Great Depression/Economic collapse + wild west lawlessness + urban Sprawl + Government incompetence/corruption + surviving Big/Mega? Corporations running a amok in the Chaos, that society seems largely unable to pull itself out of...
Neurospasta (https://www.diasexmachina.com/newgames/13-games/neurospasta/6-neurospasta) intentionally inverts the "megacorp" and "chrome" tropes of cyberpunk while attempting to invoke the rest. YMMV as to how successful the attempt. is.
This is a great thread! Thank you to all of you! Lots of stuff to mull over for my re-write.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1112629I think it's best just to treat Cyberpunk as a retro future and enjoy it for what it was.
True. It's retro-alt-future.
However, I think its possible to tweak some of the tropes to being more "realistic" to our era's future and still build something gameable. I think one aspect of making cyberpunk work is for hacking to be ahead of the surveillance tools. AKA, yes, there's this oppressive mega-state all around us, but their tech can't compete with mad skillz and with a hacker nearby, you can break rules that shackle the masses.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1112522Yeah, that's one of the problems of Cyberpunk games. Now that we are well within the "How we Got Here" history chapter of any Cyberpunk Game, and the writing is on the wall, playing the game as the ones fighting the power just reinforces the fact that in the real world, you're one of the narcissistic consumers that walks through life like a good little Sarariman, not seeing the chain around your neck or even worse, not caring. It strikes way too close to home.
Hulk, those are some depressing truth bombs. You owe me a bottle of tequila because its empty suddenly for no reason.
However, isn't D&D the same thing. Entertainment as wish fulfillment, yearned for especially because of mundane reality? I remember REH's correspondence with HPL discussing their writing as a way to escape the unbearable boring real world they felt they were shackled with.
I purchased a new copy of the Cyberpunk 2020 rulebook from DriveThruRPG's print on demand service last week. To replace my well-worn copy.
I'm still a fan of the game. It has brought me a lot of joy over the years owning it. I have quite a few of the supplements for it.
Someone earlier mentioned CyberGeneration. I own all of the supplements for it that ever saw physical book form. Including the two from Firestorm Ink. I loved it.
Quote from: Omega;1113063You are dangerously naive then. Corps control more and more of the government. Just usually not out in the open.
They're not at the point yet where they are basically nations of their own, but they do have the politicians in their pocket. Then again, in other parts of the world that they exploit, it looks like they have defacto mercenary armies that will gun down locals.
Also, the current situation with our southern neighbor and their struggle with the Cartel seems like a twisted version of a mega corp rivaling the government for control.
Quote from: Jaeger;1112627Except not really one you scratch the surface.
The problem I have with the Cyberpunk genre is that the core conceit of the genre: Mega Corporations taking over from governments.
That just can't and would never happen in real life.
For the sake of discussion - I will challenge this idea. Why not? A government, like a corporation, is nothing more than an organizational structure whose constituents agree to participate in - or are forced to.
One of the very real issues with any government is the basic idea of solvency. If a government cannot afford to sustain itself - which we've invented a lot of convenient smoke and mirrors since coming off the Gold Standard and allowing the Fed to accrete power, it cannot hold itself together. You can't pay for the soldiers to enforce your will etc. While this isn't an overnight thing, it certainly becomes a very salient issue that demands the realities of the Cyberpunk Future(tm) to be examined.
Cyberpunk generally assumes economic downturns of varying degrees. Generally hyper-wealthy via Mega-Corporations as global entities backed by AI entities that regulate a lot, if not most of the complexities of such systems. National governments by their very nature have to be in direct competition because rampant globalism - via state agencies might not be real, but it they're very much real on a Mega-Corporate level.
People have to realize that the notion of a Mega-Corp is vastly more powerful than what we see today. A Mega-Corp isn't just "one thing" - it's a veritable Amazon that controls huge swathes of production, manufacturing, distribution, and in the dark future - the infrastructure and security necessary to keep a hold of it's market-share. Imagine if Amazon owned Googly, Boeing, Lockheed, and a shit-ton of subsidiaries, had most of the politicians in key positions on its payroll, wrote its own legislation "protecting itself legally" with a veritable army of lawyers and judges, tribunals, on an international scale - backed by AI's created by the corporation itself... and the largely gutted U.S. government, which relied on those companies and subsidiaries for its own needs had to compete against them.
Now imagine that same government had SIX other Mega-Corps of similar stature to contend with - but only with it's own national resources to bear.
This is not to say the government couldn't deal with it... my contention is by the time the government needed to deal with the situation, it would be too late without *massive* bloodshed. And frankly I think the government would collapse first because as we see today, they would be too weak.
That *is* the cyberpunk future which our characters have to deal with. That post-national question... it could be pre-collapse/post-collapse but there IS a collapsing paradigm in there.
This assumes we do not go post-scarcity. Which is a fun thing to play with in a cyberpunk game... an adventure where the secrets of cold-fusion are unlocked, and what would governments or Mega-Corps do to suppress/unleash it?
I think Corporations *can* take over. I think that's one of the hallmark conceits of the genre, it's not that government doesn't exist, it's that the government has become so fundamentally weakened, it has outsourced the few things on the federal level it was intended to do.
Possible themes to explore in Cyberpunk -
- AI Jyhad - Megacorps being undermined by their own AIs for *reasons*. AI conspiracies. AI's have secretly started to play 5-d chess for their own GM-determined reasons that could be like Vampire, where immortal elders use the PC's for inscrutable machinations
- Post-Scarcity - One of the means of control is resources. Post-Scarcity is a threat to any corporation(s) leveraging that control over the populace and even government itself.
- Revolution - There may have already been a revolution before. And it failed. Or failed to enact the necessary changes. Time for a do-over and run it back. Why anytime is a good time for a revolution.
- Fuck this Rock - Why fight it, when you can run from it. Take it to space. Be the king of your trash-heap elsewhere, where *you* can be the top-dog with less G's.
- Rulers of the Wasteland Let the Mega-Corps rule in their domed cities. We control the byways and highways between the cities. We have created our own civilization, our own city-states. We are the Ayatollah's of Rockn'rolla!!!! This can also translate to ocean-traffic too. Imagine this happening on islands in the caribbean, where people hijack automated shipping, piracy etc.
These would all be big-backdrop conceits to mix-and-match and use to inform your adventures of course. The players can get involved with these things as you see fit.
Quote from: tenbones;1113114For the sake of discussion - I will challenge this idea. Why not? A government, like a corporation, is nothing more than an organizational structure whose constituents agree to participate in - or are forced to.
One of the very real issues with any government is the basic idea of solvency. If a government cannot afford to sustain itself - which we've invented a lot of convenient smoke and mirrors since coming off the Gold Standard and allowing the Fed to accrete power, it cannot hold itself together. You can't pay for the soldiers to enforce your will etc. While this isn't an overnight thing, it certainly becomes a very salient issue that demands the realities of the Cyberpunk Future(tm) to be examined.
Cyberpunk generally assumes economic downturns of varying degrees. Generally hyper-wealthy via Mega-Corporations as global entities backed by AI entities that regulate a lot, if not most of the complexities of such systems. National governments by their very nature have to be in direct competition because rampant globalism - via state agencies might not be real, but it they're very much real on a Mega-Corporate level.
People have to realize that the notion of a Mega-Corp is vastly more powerful than what we see today. A Mega-Corp isn't just "one thing" - it's a veritable Amazon that controls huge swathes of production, manufacturing, distribution, and in the dark future - the infrastructure and security necessary to keep a hold of it's market-share. Imagine if Amazon owned Googly, Boeing, Lockheed, and a shit-ton of subsidiaries, had most of the politicians in key positions on its payroll, wrote its own legislation "protecting itself legally" with a veritable army of lawyers and judges, tribunals, on an international scale - backed by AI's created by the corporation itself... and the largely gutted U.S. government, which relied on those companies and subsidiaries for its own needs had to compete against them.
Now imagine that same government had SIX other Mega-Corps of similar stature to contend with - but only with it's own national resources to bear.
This is not to say the government couldn't deal with it... my contention is by the time the government needed to deal with the situation, it would be too late without *massive* bloodshed. And frankly I think the government would collapse first because as we see today, they would be too weak.
That *is* the cyberpunk future which our characters have to deal with. That post-national question... it could be pre-collapse/post-collapse but there IS a collapsing paradigm in there.
This assumes we do not go post-scarcity. Which is a fun thing to play with in a cyberpunk game... an adventure where the secrets of cold-fusion are unlocked, and what would governments or Mega-Corps do to suppress/unleash it?
I think Corporations *can* take over. I think that's one of the hallmark conceits of the genre, it's not that government doesn't exist, it's that the government has become so fundamentally weakened, it has outsourced the few things on the federal level it was intended to do.
An alternative is private-public "partnership" writ large. Government stays out of they way because govt officials benefit from MegaCorp "largesse" - the larger the MegaCorp, the greater the "largesse".
Quote from: RandyB;1113117An alternative is private-public "partnership" writ large. Government stays out of they way because govt officials benefit from MegaCorp "largesse" - the larger the MegaCorp, the greater the "largesse".
I think that's the actual natural outcome: ineffective government bureaucrats living large on the largesse... while the Mega-Corps "do what they want".
In the
Home of the Brave book for CP2020 they have a fun story about the American government "fighting back"...
QuoteOperation Big Stick
Internally, the U.S. military has gained another duty : balance of power. The elected U.S. government sees the military as a tool to keep the powerful corporations that inhabit U.S. soil in line.
Collectively, the corporations field twice as many soldiers as the U.S. Army and Marine Corps combined. Individually, though, no corporation, not even security giant Arasaka or mercenary power Militech, can match the firepower of three Army regiments. The power of the U.S. military machine vis a vis corporations was amply demonstrated during what is called the Mantoga Incident, when the Mantoga Corporation was destroyed by military effort. This took place prior to the return of free elections in 2008, during an abortive attempt to relax military government and appoint a president. On November 5, 2005, Presidential appointee Henry Jacobi was assassinated.
Evidence strongly pointed to Mantoga, Inc. involvement and instigation, and on November 17, 2005, the corporation was given four hours to completely pull out of the United States of America. This ultimatum was ignored by the corporation ... to its sorrow. Exactly four hours after the issue of the ultimatum, Army forces moved on all Mantoga, Inc. facilities, destroying every Mantoga office with concerted air strikes (the most
impressive being a pin-point attack on the Mantoga office located in a Chicago suburb; a single air-dropped burrowing bomb shattered the entire office building with the surgical precision of a planned demolition), and overrunning all storage and factory facilities with troops, armor and artillery. The operation took twelve-hours, including mopping up. lntelligence operatives and covert military direct-action units (e .g . assassins) followed up, pursuing and killing Mantoga employees and operatives who escaped the country.
On April3, 2006, Operation Big Stick was officially closed when the last Mantoga, Inc. administrator was assassinated in Bonn, Germany.
This genocidal military action has remained as an example to all corporations on American soil of what happens when the U.S. government is pushed too far.
Heh, it's fun to just remind people... even the diseased, sleeping lion can still rise up and prove he's still King of the Jungle... at least on occasion.
Quote from: tenbones;1113121I think that's the actual natural outcome: ineffective government bureaucrats living large on the largesse... while the Mega-Corps "do what they want".
In the Home of the Brave book for CP2020 they have a fun story about the American government "fighting back"...
Heh, it's fun to just remind people... even the diseased, sleeping lion can still rise up and prove he's still King of the Jungle... at least on occasion.
That's similar to how the closing adventure of the original CP2020 metastory, Firestorm:Shockwave, got closed out, too.
Quote from: RandyB;1113153That's similar to how the closing adventure of the original CP2020 metastory, Firestorm:Shockwave, got closed out, too.
yeah it's same story!
Home of the Brave is the backdrop America sourcebook for all the metaplot adventures in "Land of the Free" boxset. I don't use the adventure modules much, so I got a LOT of mileage from
Home of the Brave.
Quote from: tenbones;1113155yeah it's same story! Home of the Brave is the backdrop America sourcebook for all the metaplot adventures in "Land of the Free" boxset. I don't use the adventure modules much, so I got a LOT of mileage from Home of the Brave.
Not quite. In
Firestorm: Shockwave it was Militech itself that got brought to heel by the U.S. Government. They recalled the Militech CEO back to active duty.
Quote from: RandyB;1113164Not quite. In Firestorm: Shockwave it was Militech itself that got brought to heel by the U.S. Government. They recalled the Militech CEO back to active duty.
Yeah I know. Firestorm happens after the events that set up Home of the Brave. HoB is just a setting book for America in CP2020. Firestorm is the mega-module adventure campaign that set's up and plays out the 4th Corporate War.
With the retconning of Cyberpunk 3.0 to be an alternate timeline... it makes Firestorm really the last vestige of CP2020 before CPRed, which I assume they'll establish the "official" outcome.
I'm considering for my first CPRed campaign... to actually run Firestorm with the new rules, as a fun exercise to get my players into the "zone". heh
Quote from: tenbones;1113222Yeah I know. Firestorm happens after the events that set up Home of the Brave. HoB is just a setting book for America in CP2020. Firestorm is the mega-module adventure campaign that set's up and plays out the 4th Corporate War.
With the retconning of Cyberpunk 3.0 to be an alternate timeline... it makes Firestorm really the last vestige of CP2020 before CPRed, which I assume they'll establish the "official" outcome.
I'm considering for my first CPRed campaign... to actually run Firestorm with the new rules, as a fun exercise to get my players into the "zone". heh
I misunderstood. I thought you were conflating the two events.
Yeah. That setting rocked hard. We're on what, the third alt.future? Cybergeneration, CP 3.0, and now Red? And which of those, if any, is the history for Mekton's Starblade Battalion setting?
Quote from: RandyB;1113224I misunderstood. I thought you were conflating the two events.
Yeah. That setting rocked hard. We're on what, the third alt.future? Cybergeneration, CP 3.0, and now Red? And which of those, if any, is the history for Mekton's Starblade Battalion setting?
CPRed is *as I understand it* - is the direct timeline from CP2020. It's the intermediary period between 2020 and 2077. I don't think any of them were overtly connected to Mekton (which is fine - though I used a lot of stuff from Mekton as "futuretech" for prototype stuff).
I've not looked forward to a new game release like this in *years*. Hell I think I'm more excited for CPRed than I was for my own game... Okay that's not true, but it's close!!!!
Quote from: tenbones;1113239CPRed is *as I understand it* - is the direct timeline from CP2020. It's the intermediary period between 2020 and 2077. I don't think any of them were overtly connected to Mekton (which is fine - though I used a lot of stuff from Mekton as "futuretech" for prototype stuff).
I've not looked forward to a new game release like this in *years*. Hell I think I'm more excited for CPRed than I was for my own game... Okay that's not true, but it's close!!!!
Starblade Battalion was explicitly set in the future of CP2020.
Which of the alt.futures lies in between CP2020 and Starblade Battalion is effectively unknown.
Quote from: RandyB;1113240Starblade Battalion was explicitly set in the future of CP2020. Which of the alt.futures lies in between CP2020 and Starblade Battalion is effectively unknown.
Its been so long... I'm gonna have to look tonight! I know I have a copy of that somewhere. Now you got me itching to dig in.
Quote from: tenbones;1113249Its been so long... I'm gonna have to look tonight! I know I have a copy of that somewhere. Now you got me itching to dig in.
I am now vaguely recalling that Cybergeneration was excluded by implication in the history of Starblade Battalion. If so, that's one down... :)
Quote from: RandyB;1113224I misunderstood. I thought you were conflating the two events.
Yeah. That setting rocked hard. We're on what, the third alt.future? Cybergeneration, CP 3.0, and now Red? And which of those, if any, is the history for Mekton's Starblade Battalion setting?
Unless Maximum Mike has been engaged in twenty years of Harkonnen-esque plans within plans I suspect the answer is "whichever one you want or can shoehorn in the best."
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1113269Unless Maximum Mike has been engaged in twenty years of Harkonnen-esque plans within plans I suspect the answer is "whichever one you want or can shoehorn in the best."
Quite likely the latter. :)
Quote from: tenbones;1113114For the sake of discussion - I will challenge this idea. Why not? A government, like a corporation, is nothing more than an organizational structure whose constituents agree to participate in - or are forced to.
For the sake of discussion.
There is one very all important point here you are missing.
A corporation is a legal entity created by government. And is always subservient to it. Always its creature.
People may buy into the narrative that it is the other way around, but that is just an illusion. It is fake news.
National governments always hold the whip hand over corporations.
Always.
Quote from: tenbones;1113114One of the very real issues with any government is the basic idea of solvency. If a government cannot afford to sustain itself - which we've invented a lot of convenient smoke and mirrors since coming off the Gold Standard and allowing the Fed to accrete power, it cannot hold itself together. You can't pay for the soldiers to enforce your will etc. While this isn't an overnight thing, it certainly becomes a very salient issue that demands the realities of the Cyberpunk Future(tm) to be examined.
While solvency is an issue for governments, *cough**Venezuela**cough* - the issue is an even infinity times
x, one for corporations. They cannot print money. A government has a power over its currency that no corporation can match.
Governments get away with financial shenanigans as a matter of routine that would cause any corporation to go into continual bankruptcies if they tried to keep up.
Quote from: tenbones;1113114Cyberpunk generally assumes economic downturns of varying degrees. Generally hyper-wealthy via Mega-Corporations as global entities backed by AI entities that regulate a lot, if not most of the complexities of such systems. National governments by their very nature have to be in direct competition because rampant globalism - via state agencies might not be real, but it they're very much real on a Mega-Corporate level.
National governments are not in competition with corporations at all, and never will be. Corporations are and will always be subservient to them. Only maintaining their good favor as long as they continue to keep the largess flowing into the right government hands.
When corporations fall out of favor with governments, they tend to have assets seized, and fines laid. It never works the other way around. Never.
The fundamental nature of the corporation as a legal entity created by national governments prevents this.
Quote from: tenbones;1113114People have to realize that the notion of a Mega-Corp is vastly more powerful than what we see today. A Mega-Corp isn't just "one thing" - it's a veritable Amazon that controls huge swathes of production, manufacturing, distribution, and in the dark future - the infrastructure and security necessary to keep a hold of it's market-share. Imagine if Amazon owned Googly, Boeing, Lockheed, and a shit-ton of subsidiaries, had most of the politicians in key positions on its payroll, wrote its own legislation "protecting itself legally" with a veritable army of lawyers and judges, tribunals, on an international scale - backed by AI's created by the corporation itself... and the largely gutted U.S. government, which relied on those companies and subsidiaries for its own needs had to compete against them.
So basically "too big to fail". Except that people forget that the government certainly can let them fail if it serves a purpose to do so. Because national governments are never "gutted" in comparison to the corporations that operate under their patronage. That is another false conceit.
Quote from: tenbones;1113114Now imagine that same government had SIX other Mega-Corps of similar stature to contend with - but only with it's own national resources to bear.
See previous. And next.
Quote from: tenbones;1113114This is not to say the government couldn't deal with it... my contention is by the time the government needed to deal with the situation, it would be too late without *massive* bloodshed. And frankly I think the government would collapse first because as we see today, they would be too weak.
When Governments collapse so to goes the fortunes of the corporations under it. The corporation may survive the collapse, but they never ever will come out more powerful than the government they rely on for support. History has shown this to be true.
Quote from: tenbones;1113114That *is* the cyberpunk future which our characters have to deal with. That post-national question... it could be pre-collapse/post-collapse but there IS a collapsing paradigm in there.
This is called Somalia. (or *insert failed nation-state here*) Worth noting that it is not in any way ruled, or run, by any corporation of any size...
Worth noting that corporations actually have a hard time operating in failed nation-states. Kinda hard to pay out a dividend to your shareholders when there is not much of an economy to exploit.
Quote from: tenbones;1113114This assumes we do not go post-scarcity. Which is a fun thing to play with in a cyberpunk game... an adventure where the secrets of cold-fusion are unlocked, and what would governments or Mega-Corps do to suppress/unleash it?
Cold-fusion does not = post-scarcity. It just gives us cheaper power bills, and somewhat cleaner air.
Now back on topic...
Quote from: tenbones;1113114I think Corporations *can* take over. I think that's one of the hallmark conceits of the genre, it's not that government doesn't exist, it's that the government has become so fundamentally weakened, it has outsourced the few things on the federal level it was intended to do.
It is a false conceit of the genre.
Proof: The British East India Company. BEA
At its height:
A full 1/5th of the world's trade came under its influence.
It had it's own private army, with officers trained at a private academy.
It took over most of India by threat, intimidation, bribery or outright war.
In the end when the East India company caused more geopolitical trouble than it was worth, The British Government nationalised the company. The Crown took over its Indian possessions, its administrative powers and machinery, and its armed forces.
What did the HEIC do about that? After all, they were the closest thing to a cyberpunk Megacorp in history; they had control over a country thousands of miles from the British Isles. They had gobs of cash. They had their own army and Navy.
They did jack shit. They rode their golden parachutes into retirement. That's what they did.
Because they were always just a creature of the British Crown and its Government.
National governments always hold the whip hand over corporations.
Always.
In the scope of Cyberpunk, I disagree. You've drawn a parallel to the EIC, but there were a lot of differences between that and the megacorps as presented in CP. And there's a sizable difference in the way that corporations are treated now from the way they were then. They have rights, and legal representation that is able to fight back against imperious decisions on the part of government. If Donald Trump were to decide to nationalize Amazon today, the whole thing would be mired in court cases for the next sixty years, with nothing happening in the meantime. It just doesn't work that way anymore.
So in Cyberpunk, there's ten of those Amazons running around (we really only have about six), companies that are so big and so dug into every economy around the world that they're beyond the scope of a single government to rule anymore. Your government doesn't like them? They stop providing their key niche service or product to you. Go ahead, try to find it somewhere else. Because they've been in that position for years, they have laws, contracts, and even entire treaties that are dedicated to preserving their control over their niche product. You can't find it somewhere else. You can try to build the capability yourself, but it's likely that they also control the means to build the equipment needed to make the thing. In the end, you're stuck buying it from them somehow.
In the case of Militech and Arasaka, both were rich companies, but neither was diversified, and when it came down to it, all either one was providing was either weapons (militech) or security (arasaka). And they were still strong enough to just fight it out in major cities around the world, and it took actual military force to stop them. President Kress jerking around Donald Lundee doesn't make any sense outside the fact that she'd already mobilized the US military against Arasaka AND Militech forces, and was threatening to finish wiping out his people if he didn't accept her offer. Arasaka didn't even stop in North America until Kress wiped them all out (ofc, even if they'd have surrendered, she was using them as a scapegoat and blaming the Night City Nuke on them).
Anyway, your beholden to basis of argument isn't applicable. CP2020 corps aren't beholden to anyone. They're not quite as free as the ones in Shadowrun (that whole UN-recognized extraterritoriality thing), but they're pretty close.
From another angle, there's always the way that things worked out in Living Steel; as they explored the stars, corporations set up the colonies, when the nation-states tried to exert authority over the corporate colonies (in the form of taxation), the corps had a revolution, overthrew the nation states, offered the former political leaders positions in the corps as an incentive to surrender, assassinated the ones who wouldn't, then went on about their business, restructuring government in the corporate image. So all the major "governments" in the setting (including the Starguild and Corporate Imperium) were actually corporations in disguise. Later, one of the CEOs of Imperium decided to be the actual Emperor (a la Julius Ceaser) and took control, but the structure is corporate in nature for pretty much 90% of humanity.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272National governments always hold the whip hand over corporations.
Always.
While this is true in the real world, one of the core concepts of cyberpunk is the relationship between govts and corps has been broken and govts no longer holds the whip. Perhaps they are competing for the whip. Perhaps the corps now hold the whip. But either way, the "natural order" of govts and corps has been shattered, perhaps that's even cause for the dystopia.
Honestly, there are a lot of dodgy economics in the classic cyberpunk setup.
If you actually get rid of nation-states, you lose the financial and legal frameworks that corporations use to operate. The stable currencies, the stock exchanges, the legal systems themselves.
Cyberpunk also loves to talk about how high tech is made inexpensive by mass production and mass adoption, but every place we actual go to is a murdery slum or a banana republic. Where are all these consumers who are driving prices down? And why are they buying monowire whips and gun arms?
If there are no nation-states, who is keeping the lights on, the toilets flushing, and the faucets running?
Quote from: Panzerkraken;1113280In the scope of Cyberpunk, I disagree. You've drawn a parallel to the EIC, but there were a lot of differences between that and the megacorps as presented in CP..
The core conceit of the way megacorps are presented in CP, is a fallacious one.
Its a nonsense conceit - like the flat earth theory.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;1113280And there's a sizable difference in the way that corporations are treated now from the way they were then. They have rights, and legal representation that is able to fight back against imperious decisions on the part of government. If Donald Trump were to decide to nationalize Amazon today, the whole thing would be mired in court cases for the next sixty years, with nothing happening in the meantime. It just doesn't work that way anymore. ..
Yes it does:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-election-nationalizations/factbox-venezuelas-nationalizations-under-chavez-idUSBRE89701X20121008
While it indeed does depend on who gets into power. Don't ever fall into the trap of "It can't happen here."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/14/politics/kfile-bernie-nationalization/index.html
That guy was a presidential candidate, and there's plenty more out there who are already in various government
elected offices who share those views. Legal defense? They'll just change the laws. Just like Venezuela did.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1113285While this is true in the real world, one of the core concepts of cyberpunk is the relationship between govts and corps has been broken and govts no longer holds the whip. Perhaps they are competing for the whip. Perhaps the corps now hold the whip. But either way, the "natural order" of govts and corps has been shattered, perhaps that's even cause for the dystopia.
That whole concept is a false conceit. As demonstrated by History and Reality.
Because this:
Quote from: Lurkndog;1113289Honestly, there are a lot of dodgy economics in the classic cyberpunk setup.
If you actually get rid of nation-states, you lose the financial and legal frameworks that corporations use to operate. The stable currencies, the stock exchanges, the legal systems themselves.
Cyberpunk also loves to talk about how high tech is made inexpensive by mass production and mass adoption, but every place we actual go to is a murdery slum or a banana republic. Where are all these consumers who are driving prices down? And why are they buying monowire whips and gun arms?
If there are no nation-states, who is keeping the lights on, the toilets flushing, and the faucets running?
First world nations have trouble with the upkeep of their infrastructure, both physical and financial.
The same infrastructure that Corporations rely upon to make money.
It defies any kind of belief based in
reality that any corporation can pull off what the HEIC still managed to fuck up with over a hundred years of Crown backing.
The economic conceits behind Cyberpunk style Megacorps are no more based in reality than Hogwarts academy for young wizards.
Now if you want to play in a setting with hogwarts economics, like most cyberpunk settings, fine.
But lets not pretend a school for young wizards could actually happen in real life.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113297Yes it does:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-election-nationalizations/factbox-venezuelas-nationalizations-under-chavez-idUSBRE89701X20121008
And how'd that work out for him?
QuoteWhile it indeed does depend on who gets into power. Don't ever fall into the trap of "It can't happen here."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/14/politics/kfile-bernie-nationalization/index.html
That guy was a presidential candidate, and there's plenty more out there who are already in various government elected offices who share those views. Legal defense? They'll just change the laws. Just like Venezuela did.
Implying that the law changing power of elected members of the US Congress is the same as a banana republic dictator? That's a good one.
QuoteThat whole concept is a false conceit. As demonstrated by History and Reality.
Because this:
First world nations have trouble with the upkeep of their infrastructure, both physical and financial.
The same infrastructure that Corporations rely upon to make money.
It defies any kind of belief based in reality that any corporation can pull off what the HEIC still managed to fuck up with over a hundred years of Crown backing.
The economic conceits behind Cyberpunk style Megacorps are no more based in reality than Hogwarts academy for young wizards.
Now if you want to play in a setting with hogwarts economics, like most cyberpunk settings, fine.
But lets not pretend a school for young wizards could actually happen in real life.
I'm sure yours is fascinating and richly detailed. (/sarcasm)
Good responses! Let's dive in!
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272For the sake of discussion.
There is one very all important point here you are missing.
A corporation is a legal entity created by government. And is always subservient to it. Always its creature.
People may buy into the narrative that it is the other way around, but that is just an illusion. It is fake news.
National governments always hold the whip hand over corporations.
Always.
I actually thought we were assuming we're past that point. I didn't forget it - I assumed for the point of "Cyberpunk" is that "corporations" are not these "tiny" things we see in Amazon, Google, MS, etc. - they're orders of magnitude larger. Mega-Corps are like Japanese Zaibatsu on gamma-irradiated steroids. In performing their corporate functions, they *own* whole swathes of territory, they're their own municipalities, they maintain security, and because of their zaibatsu-like structure maintain their own self-contained economies. They own the subsidiary that acquires raw-material, who then sells it to their other subsidiaries+ to process it, who then uses their own subsidiary distributions companies to get it to markets+ that they then sell it consumers+ and to other corporations and organizations and governments. Where '+' = all the external entities that they mark up their product at each point of the chain which consume them resulting in pure profit.
I'm suggesting such entities would essentially "own" the government which weakened itself from the very existence of these things. Politicians get bought, they institute legislation which benefits these Mega-Corps, which could easily lobby to have the government outsource more and more of their traditional - even Constitutional roles. You can see that happening right now where nearly every amendment is under threat by corporate interests. I'm not saying it's easy - I'm saying it could happen. It would just take time and more unprincipled behavior by an eroding system.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272While solvency is an issue for governments, *cough**Venezuela**cough* - the issue is an even infinity times x, one for corporations. They cannot print money. A government has a power over its currency that no corporation can match.
Unfortunately this is already proving to be untrue. We're almost exclusively using fiat-currency now with very little backing up our economies. The US Government is $23-trillion+ in debt, with $120-trillion in unfunded liabilities. We are already *beyond* bankrupt. The only thing keeping it going is faith and participation and fear of the consequences of accepting reality.
That said... you're seeing the first flirtations of corporations creating their own currencies. Not only is the use of digital currencies a gigantic blow to national governments - side story - I LITERALLY passed on Bitcoin back when I first heard about it when it was going for about .25-cents/coin, *because* I thought "There is no fucking way the U.S. Government isn't going to shut this down... and I don't want to end up getting fucked for owning a thousand-dollars worth of shit." This is what happens when I overestimate the intelligence of the Government... And I watched for years like a dumbass (I'm the real dumbass here - so we're clear) as Bitcoin climbed and climbed... and then other cryptocurrencies arrived - and I passed on those... waiting for the hammer to fall... (meanwhile my brother loaded up, including pre-Ipod era Apple Stock) and that hammer never arrived. Now you see Facebook trying to get into the act, and various banks now working on their own.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272Governments get away with financial shenanigans as a matter of routine that would cause any corporation to go into continual bankruptcies if they tried to keep up.
I draw no distinction. Very few government financial shenanigans do not involve corporate involvement including tacit participation. What governments DO get to do that corporations don't - is absolve themselves of responsibility when push comes to shove. But in my above scenario - I don't see that happening because the "corruption" that would generate "financial shenanigans" would simply be "normal business" and the politician in question would used as a sacrificial lamb to be replaced by another corporate stooge. That would only require that a Mega-Corp control the "media"... or as we have in the FCC now where the committee leaders are former corporate execs in the first place.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272National governments are not in competition with corporations at all, and never will be. Corporations are and will always be subservient to them. Only maintaining their good favor as long as they continue to keep the largess flowing into the right government hands.
When corporations fall out of favor with governments, they tend to have assets seized, and fines laid. It never works the other way around. Never.
The fundamental nature of the corporation as a legal entity created by national governments prevents this.
Depends. I'm *assuming* we're talking about the West. See above - my assumptions on what it would take for corporations to take over require only slightly different conceits than what we see today. Today's big corporations are not quite big enough. But the path to get there is clearly laid out. Honestly, while I get what you're saying - "corporations are a legal entity etc. etc." - sure that's true. But that's *right now*. An honest to goodness Mega-Corp could *easily* fulfill most of the functions - if even only in a large territory, the functions of a government. Maybe on a state-level? Or multi-state level.
I'd split the difference with you and say - it doesn't require a Mega-Corp to control everything and remove "the government" - as much as it needs to merely keep it weak and lethargic in order to services its own needs. As technology advances, and you see more and more technologically illiterate office-holders get into power, as economic reality exerts itself more - where the value of currency withers which would drive corporate currency values much higher, it makes it easier to influence politicians.
The *real* question is the Government military vs. Corporate capacity to exert real force. That's the big question where I'll cede all the ground to you. It's the big equalizer.
My only defense to that is the will to exert that power.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272So basically "too big to fail". Except that people forget that the government certainly can let them fail if it serves a purpose to do so. Because national governments are never "gutted" in comparison to the corporations that operate under their patronage. That is another false conceit.
Again - my conceits are not "modern" corporations. I'm talking about a much larger beast.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272When Governments collapse so to goes the fortunes of the corporations under it. The corporation may survive the collapse, but they never ever will come out more powerful than the government they rely on for support. History has shown this to be true.
Mega-Corps are multi-national affairs. It depends on the nation in question but the fact that nations can fall all over the place, it doesn't matter to a decentralized multi-national necessarily. As Mega-Corps proliferate, it squashes smaller businesses/consumes them which drives more and more people that earn their wages into their control. The tax-revenue generated by those people are a huge portion of revenue for the Government. It's symbiotic. The whole point of the discussion from my perspective is not one of "Corporations need Governments to exist" - they don't. Venezuela collapsed - all the multi-nationals that did business there did no collapse. Some are still doing business there.
The question for me is - can Corporations subsume government functions and remain solvent in the absence of that government? I say they can. but it would take some very specific conditions that haven't arrived yet... but I'll concede the following:
1) Those elements exist and are growing but other factors might preclude those elements from coming to fruition (world wars, people coming to their senses, singularity events, etc)
2) It *might* be that Mega-Corps simply cannot exist at that scale at all. It might not be a case of "Too Big to Fail" - but simply, at this current time, "Too Big to Work Right Now" but I suspect machine-learning will help a lot in that regard... to our deteriment.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272This is called Somalia. (or *insert failed nation-state here*) Worth noting that it is not in any way ruled, or run, by any corporation of any size...
Worth noting that corporations actually have a hard time operating in failed nation-states. Kinda hard to pay out a dividend to your shareholders when there is not much of an economy to exploit.
Bad example. Corporations *require* infrastructure to be solvent. Mega-Corporations require even more obviously. So unless a corporation moves into a territory and creates that infrastructure from scratch the chance of monetary success is precipitously slimmer - but this depends on the nature of the business. One wouldn't create a silicon-wafer design factory in the middle of the Sudan... but a mining company (as you see with Chinese corporations) is a different matter.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272Cold-fusion does not = post-scarcity. It just gives us cheaper power bills, and somewhat cleaner air.
It's a huge factor over time in achieving post-scarcity once the technology proliferates.
Assuming iterative design improvements etc. But my point on this was that Mega-Corps would *never* allow that to happen.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113272It is a false conceit of the genre.
Proof: The British East India Company. BEA
At its height:
A full 1/5th of the world's trade came under its influence.
It had it's own private army, with officers trained at a private academy.
It took over most of India by threat, intimidation, bribery or outright war.
In the end when the East India company caused more geopolitical trouble than it was worth, The British Government nationalised the company. The Crown took over its Indian possessions, its administrative powers and machinery, and its armed forces.
What did the HEIC do about that? After all, they were the closest thing to a cyberpunk Megacorp in history; they had control over a country thousands of miles from the British Isles. They had gobs of cash. They had their own army and Navy.
They did jack shit. They rode their golden parachutes into retirement. That's what they did.
Because they were always just a creature of the British Crown and its Government.
National governments always hold the whip hand over corporations.
Always.
Interesting point. Mega-Corporations require technological advances that HEIC couldn't possibly have dreamed of. But the fundamental difference I'd point out is that for this discussion to be apples-to-apples is that the government has to be sufficiently weakened. And as you pointed out - they were the extension of the Government - not the other way around.
That's the whole point.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;1113320And how'd that work out for him?
Him? He was too soon.
But those views have been gaining traction.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/257639/four-americans-embrace-form-socialism.aspx
Never say it can't happen here.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;1113320Implying that the law changing power of elected members of the US Congress is the same as a banana republic dictator? That's a good one.
Venezuela has a freely elected national assembly (their version of a congress.)
Chavez did not take over Venezuela by marching in with his revolutionary army; he was first elected to be president. By the people. All nice and democracy like...
That's how they work now. First, they get elected...
Its rather naive to think that such a thing cannot happen here.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;1113320I'm sure yours is fascinating and richly detailed. (/sarcasm)
Like the song says: It's a beautiful world.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339I actually thought we were assuming we're past that point. I didn't forget it - I assumed for the point of "Cyberpunk" is that "corporations" are not these "tiny" things we see in Amazon, Google, MS, etc. - they're orders of magnitude larger.
There's a chicken and egg thing going on. Corporations can never get Mega big without a weak government. So, the government structure is required to be weak today for corporations to get larger than they currently are tomorrow.
Besides, the Mega Corp structure is inherently unstable because of the ownership problems. While it's possible to a company like Facebook to be owned by a single, very rich owner, a company like that cannot expand without selling (or trading away) shares in the company for cash to buy up other, smaller companies. Sooner or later, a majority of the equity of the corporation will be owned by investment firms. Firms which already own other large corporations. Either that or Megacorps will need to go in debt to expand so they will owe massive amounts of money to the banks which, themselves, are owned by investment firms.
So, for Megacorps to come into existence you need a very weak government unwilling to enforce their own anti-monopoly laws and, at the same time, you need investment firms to all agree to allow corporations to endlessly expand. And, even if both of those events occur, the MegaCorps will have so much of their equity owned by the investment firms that those firms, not the MegaCorps themselves, will be in control. The idea of MegaCorps running ops on each other (or, indeed, fighting each other directly) can't happen when both of those MegaCorps are owned by the same people.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339...
I actually thought we were assuming we're past that point. I didn't forget it - I assumed for the point of "Cyberpunk" is that "corporations" are not these "tiny" things we see in Amazon, Google, MS, etc. - they're orders of magnitude larger. Mega-Corps are like Japanese Zaibatsu on gamma-irradiated steroids. In performing their corporate functions, they *own* whole swathes of territory, they're their own municipalities, they maintain security, and because of their zaibatsu-like structure maintain their own self-contained economies. They own the subsidiary that acquires raw-material, who then sells it to their other subsidiaries+ to process it, who then uses their own subsidiary distributions companies to get it to markets+ that they then sell it consumers+ and to other corporations and organizations and governments. Where '+' = all the external entities that they mark up their product at each point of the chain which consume them resulting in pure profit.
Literally just described the HIEC.
Controlled India:
They totally controlled the economy of an entire subcontinent.
And had influence over a fifth of the worlds trade. And had their own army and navy.
Still went tits up when the crown pulled their card.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339...I'm suggesting such entities would essentially "own" the government which weakened itself from the very existence of these things. Politicians get bought, they institute legislation which benefits these Mega-Corps, which could easily lobby to have the government outsource more and more of their traditional - even Constitutional roles. You can see that happening right now where nearly every amendment is under threat by corporate interests.
Political interests. Many politicians have a vested interest in allowing such corporate /economic shenanigans.
They get rich passing laws that benefit corporations, because the corporations in question are their bitch.
And when Corporations start thinking they are bigger than the government and stop paying out to the right people, they get body checked; investigated, fined, congressional hearings, etc...
Until they start the largess flowing again.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339...Unfortunately this is already proving to be untrue. We're almost exclusively using fiat-currency now with very little backing up our economies. The US Government is $23-trillion+ in debt, with $120-trillion in unfunded liabilities. We are already *beyond* bankrupt. The only thing keeping it going is faith and participation and fear of the consequences of accepting reality.
Proof that it is true. No corporation can do this, and put off the consequences for so long.
Mind numbing debt levels: Brought to you by 100 years of elected government officials in the USA!
Quote from: tenbones;1113339..That said... you're seeing the first flirtations of corporations creating their own currencies. Not only is the use of digital currencies a gigantic blow to national governments - side story - I LITERALLY passed on Bitcoin back when I first heard about it when it was going for about .25-cents/coin, *because* I thought "There is no fucking way the U.S. Government isn't going to shut this down... and I don't want to end up getting fucked for owning a thousand-dollars worth of shit." This is what happens when I overestimate the intelligence of the Government... And I watched for years like a dumbass (I'm the real dumbass here - so we're clear) as Bitcoin climbed and climbed... and then other cryptocurrencies arrived - and I passed on those... waiting for the hammer to fall... (meanwhile my brother loaded up, including pre-Ipod era Apple Stock) and that hammer never arrived. Now you see Facebook trying to get into the act, and various banks now working on their own.
Meh, banks used to be able to print their own currency in the US. They were still under the US gov thumb.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339..I draw no distinction. Very few government financial shenanigans do not involve corporate involvement including tacit participation. What governments DO get to do that corporations don't - is absolve themselves of responsibility when push comes to shove.
You should, Corporations are the creatures of government. It is a core concept.
The role is impossible to reverse in real life.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339...Mega-Corps are multi-national affairs. It depends on the nation in question but the fact that nations can fall all over the place, it doesn't matter to a decentralized multi-national necessarily. As Mega-Corps proliferate, it squashes smaller businesses/consumes them which drives more and more people that earn their wages into their control. The tax-revenue generated by those people are a huge portion of revenue for the Government. It's symbiotic. .
Of course it is symbiotic. How else are the politicians gonna cash out? But the national government it is based in still holds the whip hand.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339...The whole point of the discussion from my perspective is not one of "Corporations need Governments to exist" - they don't. Venezuela collapsed - all the multi-nationals that did business there did no collapse. Some are still doing business there.
Again, Multi-nationals are still beholden to their home nation.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339...The question for me is - can Corporations subsume government functions and remain solvent in the absence of that government? :
Not in the real world.
Quote from: tenbones;1113339...Interesting point. Mega-Corporations require technological advances that HEIC couldn't possibly have dreamed of. But the fundamental difference I'd point out is that for this discussion to be apples-to-apples is that the government has to be sufficiently weakened. And as you pointed out - they were the extension of the Government - not the other way around.
That's the whole point.
An that point is incorrect, because as creatures legally created by and entirely dependent on government patronage of some kind or another, a reversal of those roles is flat out impossible in the real world.
Look, CP type mega corps are a fantasy invention.
All the tech advancement that you say would make CO mega corps possible = fantasy. Those advances don't exist in real life. It's just more hogwarts.
And that's OK.
People game in fantasy settings all the time.
Nothing wrong with that at all.
I also don't like gonzo fantasy settings like forgotten realms. And I think palladium's RIFTS was one of the dumbest rpg settings of all time.
But there are hardcore fans for all that shit.
It's just not for me.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1113360There's a chicken and egg thing going on. Corporations can never get Mega big without a weak government. So, the government structure is required to be weak today for corporations to get larger than they currently are tomorrow.
Besides, the Mega Corp structure is inherently unstable because of the ownership problems. While it's possible to a company like Facebook to be owned by a single, very rich owner, a company like that cannot expand without selling (or trading away) shares in the company for cash to buy up other, smaller companies. Sooner or later, a majority of the equity of the corporation will be owned by investment firms. Firms which already own other large corporations. Either that or Megacorps will need to go in debt to expand so they will owe massive amounts of money to the banks which, themselves, are owned by investment firms.
So, for Megacorps to come into existence you need a very weak government unwilling to enforce their own anti-monopoly laws and, at the same time, you need investment firms to all agree to allow corporations to endlessly expand. And, even if both of those events occur, the MegaCorps will have so much of their equity owned by the investment firms that those firms, not the MegaCorps themselves, will be in control. The idea of MegaCorps running ops on each other (or, indeed, fighting each other directly) can't happen when both of those MegaCorps are owned by the same people.
I think you are missing a point in your analysis. The MegaCorps are presented as being the primary faces of competing Investment Firms, or rather Banks. Thats a driving factor in the Stormfront campaign, actually... Even if Militech and Arasaka wanted to stop fighting before setting off a Tacnuke in California, they can't, because the banks that control their capital won't let them...
In fact, the entire Corporate war wasn't even between Militech and Arasaka but between two smaller Corps (let me check my books really quick...) OTEC and CINO, who are competing to buy up the assets of a third corp (IHAG), with the two security firms brought onboard to protect the assets, and eventually becoming the primary forces in the war.
The problem is in the perception of Megacorps themselves, taken from the street view. In the end of the day Militech isn't a Mega Corp at all... its a nearly wholly owned subsidiary with delusions of independence of a banking consortium...
As I recall one of the 'background plot points' in the Fourth Corporate War books that ended the 2020 timeline is some banking execs that had kept the CINO/OTEC bidding war going to make a profit from the sale getting assassinated around the time the war went Hot, when Arasaka and Militech tossed aside considerations of profit and corporate politics over, essentially, National Pride.
The idea that some sort of cozy peace will break out because the corporations are all owned by teh same people, thus invalidating the entire 'ethos' of Cyberpunk games, is silly, because it ignores that there will still be competing interests backing the various sides. There will be competing interests within each faction as well, both because of the classic 'left hand, right hand' issue, and also because once you're willing to hire criminal mercenaries to murder-steal corporate secrets to get ahead, why would you ever think to restrict yourself to 'approved enemies'? This is a common feature of the various games, From Shadowrun, to Cyberpunk to SLA Industries (which, in fact, posits that there is only ONE megacorporation, and the 'shadowrunners' are de facto employees of said Megacorporation... and yet they will frequently be hired by one department IN CANON to run against other departments to some exec somewhere can get a promotion or pay-raise...)
The entire conversation around governments is based on the current Western status quo of governance, the Westphalian nation-state model. That model has only been in effect in the West, and in Western-influenced societies, since it was established in 1648 by the Treaty of Westphalia which ended the Thirty-Years War. And everything that has been said in this thread about governments is true within that model.
Some IRL observers are beginning to speculate that we may be living through the failure of that model. In which case, a currently-unknown successor model will be employed to provide governance - because human societies cannot function without some structure of governance. Whether that would more closely resemble a pre-Westphalian feudalism or something else entirely is anybody's guess.
In cyberpunk settings, corporations have taken on much of the governance role in the territorial areas they control. Distinct governments still exist, and play a variety of roles relative to the corporations. Thematically, the corporations are primary, and the governments secondary. Relative to the hypothetical end of the Westphalian model, this could be a state of transition, as the nation-state model fails and corporations move into the power vacuum. This does not mean that corporations would automatically be the long-term successors to the nation-state, though the first-mover advantage could position them for such.
Quote from: RandyB;1113373The entire conversation around governments is based on the current Western status quo of governance, ...
Corporations are creations of this status quo.
Quote from: RandyB;1113373...Relative to the hypothetical end of the Westphalian model, this could be a state of transition, as the nation-state model fails and corporations move into the power vacuum. This does not mean that corporations would automatically be the long-term successors to the nation-state, though the first-mover advantage could position them for such.
Impossible in real life; because corporations cannot exist without their patron government.
There area already plenty of real world examples of what happens to countries when the Westphalian nation-state model fails.
And there is not one single instance of a Corporation or business of any kind moving into the power vacuum.
The conceit of "Corporations taking over" Cyberpunk is a fantasy setting.
The wizarding world with "MegaCorp" instead of "Hogwarts".
I was just thumbing through the new Interface Zero 3.0 iteration (it's about to go to print)...
Gunmetal Games's setting is really the apotheosis of "cyberpunk" that crosses all the major lines of the genre and straddles them.
It's got *all* the major tropes wildly on display. Dystopian counter-culture, corporate/government hijinks run rampant, all the tech: cyber, bio, chemo, gene, nano etc. Even elements that would completely give you the Not-Shadowrun vibe - Psionics which is completely downplayed compared to previous editions (but this isn't the final iteration I think).
Artwork is excellent. Hacking rules that work alongside other actions (so no more need for the No Netrunning issue). I think they did damn fine job. I *really* need to take this out for a spin...
What infrastructure does a megacorp need in one country that it can't get in another?
We have to pull out of China...Oh no, Vietnam.
We have to pull out of Hong Kong...Oh no, Taiwan. Indonesia. Mayasia. Thailand. Blah blah etc.
Some Country that isn't the US or EU blows up, you pick another, and it doesn't impact you much because you're already in so many.
All the arguments about Gov't being superior to current Megacorps applies only to the US, China, EU and Russia. Any other country is meat for the beast.
US Megas don't have to compete with the US govt. As long as money=speech and Corporations are allowed Free Speech, they'll own Congress. They won't need their own military and security, because the most powerful nuclear military on earth invades other countries at their behest and enforces their will through economic treaties and global courts.
There's one commonality of all Cyberpunk histories that will need to happen in order for True Megas to arise - the collapse or partial collapse of Rule of Law in the US. As long as Corporations control the only entity strong enough to sanction or eliminate them, they have no reason to bite the hand that feeds and protects.
With the gov't under control to a decent degree, the only possible threat to a US megacorp is an armed US populace. Which is why Bond-Villain corps like Monsanto have been strapping up by purchasing armed security contracting companies.
The pieces are moving into place for something like the Shiawase Decision (which enshrined the concept of Corporate Extraterritoriality in Shadowrun history). We just need mass civil unrest and /or partial governmental collapse for the pieces to start slotting into place.
I think the issue with megacorps is that they're massively unprofitable.
While "Born in a Evilcorp Crib and buried in an evilcorp coffin" sounds intimidating, unless Evilcrop is primarily a furniture manufacturer that would be massively unprofitable due to economies of scale and the way management is structured.
More importantly then IF a megacorp could take over is if a Megacorp would WANT to take over.
A "Megacorp becoming government" would be indistinguishable from a regular government. In fact in fiction most megacorps feel like they follow the Communist Profit model. As we all know the most profitable of governments.
A megacorp can manipulate the government and can be the "Power behind the throne" but it can't be the power in front of the throne because corps are notoriously responsibility and risk-averse.
Quote from: RandyB;1113373The entire conversation around governments is based on the current Western status quo of governance, the Westphalian nation-state model. That model has only been in effect in the West, and in Western-influenced societies, since it was established in 1648 by the Treaty of Westphalia which ended the Thirty-Years War. And everything that has been said in this thread about governments is true within that model.
Some IRL observers are beginning to speculate that we may be living through the failure of that model. In which case, a currently-unknown successor model will be employed to provide governance - because human societies cannot function without some structure of governance. Whether that would more closely resemble a pre-Westphalian feudalism or something else entirely is anybody's guess.
In cyberpunk settings, corporations have taken on much of the governance role in the territorial areas they control. Distinct governments still exist, and play a variety of roles relative to the corporations. Thematically, the corporations are primary, and the governments secondary. Relative to the hypothetical end of the Westphalian model, this could be a state of transition, as the nation-state model fails and corporations move into the power vacuum. This does not mean that corporations would automatically be the long-term successors to the nation-state, though the first-mover advantage could position them for such.
Interesting post. The essence of the Westphalian nation state is an entity having the monopoly over the legitimate use of force within a defined territory. I struggle to see why any entity structured as a modern-day corporation would ever want to take on such a role. But if it did, how would it be any different to a government? A nasty kind of oligarchy with a weird franchise, but still basically just another government.
Quote from: tenbones;1114711I was just thumbing through the new Interface Zero 3.0 iteration (it's about to go to print)...
Gunmetal Games's setting is really the apotheosis of "cyberpunk" that crosses all the major lines of the genre and straddles them.
It's got *all* the major tropes wildly on display. Dystopian counter-culture, corporate/government hijinks run rampant, all the tech: cyber, bio, chemo, gene, nano etc. Even elements that would completely give you the Not-Shadowrun vibe - Psionics which is completely downplayed compared to previous editions (but this isn't the final iteration I think).
Artwork is excellent. Hacking rules that work alongside other actions (so no more need for the No Netrunning issue). I think they did damn fine job. I *really* need to take this out for a spin...
I'd missed this. Will it only be for Savage Worlds? The previous version was done in versions for various rulesets. I'm not the biggest fan of SW.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113297That whole concept is a false conceit. As demonstrated by History and Reality.
The Corp > Govt conceit in cyberpunk isn't based on history or reality. In the genre, it represents an unnatural order that causes tremendous suffering and social upheaval, aka the Dystopia. It could not have existed in previous eras because Mega-Corps rely upon advanced tech which allowed it to upend the previous relationship between Corp and Govt.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113297It defies any kind of belief based in reality that any corporation can pull off what the HEIC still managed to fuck up with over a hundred years of Crown backing.
The HEIC members were not post-national globalists elites. Their members, most especially the rank and file, still viewed themselves as proper English citizens loyal to the Crown. The MegaCorp elites have no national pride, no national allegiance and no sense of belonging to something beyond their MegaCorp.
But as soon as you enter any kind of speculative fiction, you have to decide to put aside disbelief to enjoy the media. Everyone knows movies aren't real, but we still jump at fake monsters and cheer for imaginary characters who can't hear us.
Quote from: Jaeger;1113297The economic conceits behind Cyberpunk style Megacorps are no more based in reality than Hogwarts academy for young wizards.
You have made many good points worth considering. However, its your turn for the hot seat.
How would YOU make Cyberpunk Mega-Corps make sense in YOUR campaigns?
How would YOU keep the conceits of genre, yet make them work in actual play at YOUR table?
Overall, what would economics in YOUR cyberpunk dystopia look like?
Quote from: Jaeger;1113297But lets not pretend a school for young wizards could actually happen in real life.
Still more useful than a gender studies degree!!
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114811I think the issue with megacorps is that they're massively unprofitable.
While "Born in a Evilcorp Crib and buried in an evilcorp coffin" sounds intimidating, unless Evilcrop is primarily a furniture manufacturer that would be massively unprofitable due to economies of scale and the way management is structured.
More importantly then IF a megacorp could take over is if a Megacorp would WANT to take over.
A "Megacorp becoming government" would be indistinguishable from a regular government. In fact in fiction most megacorps feel like they follow the Communist Profit model. As we all know the most profitable of governments.
A megacorp can manipulate the government and can be the "Power behind the throne" but it can't be the power in front of the throne because corps are notoriously responsibility and risk-averse.
What you're missing is, "government" doesn't have to mean keeping the lights on and the roads paved. It can also mean keeping Rule of Law through a binding web of treaties and laws. The EU and UN are examples of "meta-governments", in which states willing give up some sovereignty in order to belong to a union that will help them decide disputes through some means other than armed conflict.
International Corps these days push nation states around all the time through the International Centre for the Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID).
Corporations can rule governments without removing them and replacing them. In fact, the idea that Cyberpunk settings mean "Corps replace Gov't" is mainly a strawman. In CP settings, Megas pull the strings and give governments orders, but don't take over the helm themselves. Why bother, when you can just choose the most profitable service to privatize, and charge the gov't maximum price for it.
Look how PG&E is flexing its muscles now in CA. They raked the people for high energy rates for decades and did little infrastructure maintenance. When fires caused by their faulty equipment cost them money, they decided to brownout whole cities for days at a time as a "safety measure" to punish the state for actually holding them barely accountable.
Look up the Toyota Motor Group, are they profitable?
Now look at the Mitsubishi Group, whose keiretsu includes Japan’s largest bank. Profitable? Just a bit, yeah.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1114942What you're missing is, "government" doesn't have to mean keeping the lights on and the roads paved.
The government doesn't actually do that since its been licensing that to subcontractors since forever.
The binding laws part is the ONLY part that government really does. Which corps don't do which is the basis for the argument.
You also missed the part where I agreed with your principle that corps can influence. I don't know PG&E but your ramblings on it are starting to sound conspiratorial.
Quote from: Marchand;1114830I'd missed this. Will it only be for Savage Worlds? The previous version was done in versions for various rulesets. I'm not the biggest fan of SW.
The ONLY system I've heard this game will be for is SW. I re-checked the KS and it doesn't mention other systems anywhere in the Stretch Goals (but if I'm wrong, my bad).
BUT! that said... SWADE is 98% compatible with previous editions of SW. So if you're not averse to some mental-elbowgrease you could convert faily easily to your system of choice they used in 2.0 or 1.0
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114959The government doesn't actually do that since its been licensing that to subcontractors since forever.
The binding laws part is the ONLY part that government really does. Which corps don't do which is the basis for the argument.
You also missed the part where I agreed with your principle that corps can influence. I don't know PG&E but your ramblings on it are starting to sound conspiratorial.
Once governments cede certain legal authority to international corporate courts, the fall of any one non-superpower gov't is negligible to an entity the size of a global keiretsu-like Mega. They will be able to protect their interests, if necessary, exfil personnel and resources and be able to wait it out, take advantage of the chaos, or get the hell out of dodge.
Government does provide services, in many cases, at the local level. All the PG&E outages don't bother me, because I get my power from SMUD, a not-for-profit, community owned electric utility company.
If you don't know about PG&E, it doesn't take much research. PG&E was hit with a major lawsuit after their powerlines were found to be at fault in the Camp Fire, the deadliest wildfire in CA history. This and other lawsuits due to their improperly maintained and out of date equipment caused the company to file bankruptcy. Ever since then, when high winds are predicted in dry areas, they shut down the power, so as to prevent future lawsuits.
The problem is, supposedly, that their grid is so bad, that when they have to shut down one area, they have to shutdown many other areas as well in other counties that do not have wind advisories. That they have to blackout so many customers for the areas suffering wind advisories is criticized by, well pretty much everyone. Even ex-employees have said there's no way the blackouts need to be as extensive to prevent issues in high-wind areas.
PG&E got held accountable, and now it's putting the screws to CA, because they are asking the state for money to upgrade their infrastructure so they won't have to take such drastic measures.
In other words, they got held accountable, and so are trying to make the taxpayers pay for the improvements they should have been doing all along, or else enjoy a week without power whenever the winds whips up in NorCal.
I don't like defending PG&E, but their defense for the lack of infrastructure repair was because California has draconian environmental protection laws so if a certain tree was dead and full of powerlines, you could do nothing if that tree was home to some endangered squirrel, snail or sparrow. Thus, it was only a matter of time until all these old lines wrapped in dead trees became ground zero fire issues. As for why so many dead trees, let's remember California has been going through a massive multi-year drought and diverting water to its cities. So the entire debacle is a combo of greed, stupidity and virtue signalling on all fronts.
AKA, we are getting what we deserve.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1115003In other words, they got held accountable, and so are trying to make the taxpayers pay for the improvements they should have been doing all along, or else enjoy a week without power whenever the winds whips up in NorCal.
This speaks much more to massive incompetence and mismanagement then sinister plots. But I also know California is massively incompitent state as a whole so I unno.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1114919The Corp > Govt conceit in cyberpunk isn't based on history or reality. ...
This is truth.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1114919But as soon as you enter any kind of speculative fiction, you have to decide to put aside disbelief to enjoy the media. Everyone knows movies aren't real, but we still jump at fake monsters and cheer for imaginary characters who can't hear us.
And everyone has varying tolerances for this.
For Cyberpunk my tolerance is obviously lower than most.
The main reason being that the setting background always tries to tie conceit of the rise of "megacorps" to issues in the 'modern day' (Or at least modern day circa 1980's). And the ludicrousness of that conceit just permanently breaks my immersion bubble.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1114919You have made many good points worth considering. However, its your turn for the hot seat.
How would YOU make Cyberpunk Mega-Corps make sense in YOUR campaigns?
How would YOU keep the conceits of genre, yet make them work in actual play at YOUR table?
Overall, what would economics in YOUR cyberpunk dystopia look like?
Off the top of my head:
A corrupt government shortly after a big economic collapse + war. (insert fallout here) Has granted various monopolies to big corporations to fill certain functions.
Kinda like What the Crown did for the East India company, except turned on its own people.
It would need to be carefully though through more, but that would be the jist.
Quote from: Jaeger;1115180Off the top of my head:
A corrupt government shortly after a big economic collapse + war. (insert fallout here) Has granted various monopolies to big corporations to fill certain functions.
Kinda like What the Crown did for the East India company, except turned on its own people.
It would need to be carefully though through more, but that would be the jist.
I think Sci Fi Settings with Space and other plants work especially well for this.
You have that separation of responsibility on a much larger scale.
Quote from: tenbones;1114711I was just thumbing through the new Interface Zero 3.0 iteration (it's about to go to print)...
Gunmetal Games's setting is really the apotheosis of "cyberpunk" that crosses all the major lines of the genre and straddles them.
It's got *all* the major tropes wildly on display. Dystopian counter-culture, corporate/government hijinks run rampant, all the tech: cyber, bio, chemo, gene, nano etc. Even elements that would completely give you the Not-Shadowrun vibe - Psionics which is completely downplayed compared to previous editions (but this isn't the final iteration I think).
Artwork is excellent. Hacking rules that work alongside other actions (so no more need for the No Netrunning issue). I think they did damn fine job. I *really* need to take this out for a spin...
This got me into SW and I pulled the trigger on SWADE and the Essentials Box, both of which are awesome! David's been hard at work on taking in comments and errata so the print is likely to be even better.
I very much like how enhancements are handled and used it to hack a "Savage Dishonored 4" style of game to resounding success. I'm very impressed with SW and am glad to finally be on board.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1115651This got me into SW and I pulled the trigger on SWADE and the Essentials Box, both of which are awesome! David's been hard at work on taking in comments and errata so the print is likely to be even better.
I very much like how enhancements are handled and used it to hack a "Savage Dishonored 4" style of game to resounding success. I'm very impressed with SW and am glad to finally be on board.
Savage Worlds has been a very big (and needed) breath of fresh air for me. It really does hit a *lot* of the sweet-spots that I want in terms of "crunch"-to-"ease of play" factor. And its flexbility is undeniable.
While Interface Zero 3.0 is looking very very good to me. As a system it's a known quantity to my current group. But everyone is hyped for CPRed... but I'm the only one with a multi-decade history of running that game, literally no one else in my crew has ever played it (they're all Shadowrun players). It's going to be prove to be very interesting to see if Interlock is "too gritty" for them. But if so - Interface Zero will be right there.
I'm a CP 2020 alumni from way back (but not 2013 way back, or whatever the first ed was) so I've been following this thread with interest. The other day I found a copy of a cyberpunk game called The Sprawl, which I don't really remember buying. Anyone got any experience of it?
Quote from: He-Ra;1115713I'm a CP 2020 alumni from way back (but not 2013 way back, or whatever the first ed was) so I've been following this thread with interest. The other day I found a copy of a cyberpunk game called The Sprawl, which I don't really remember buying. Anyone got any experience of it?
It's PbTA, so may not be to everyone's taste. It's good for one-offs and mini-campaigns (I've played it a few times and enjoyed it) but I don't think it has the chops for real campaign play. It's pretty quick to set up and play, with fairly customisable characters from the get-go, but it's a bit too limited for me long-term.
Blatant plug, my mate Whitt has a new cyberpunk game out - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/295936/Black-Code
It's a fun take on transhuman cyberpunk #NOTACULTIST
Quote from: spon;1115797It's PbTA, so may not be to everyone's taste. It's good for one-offs and mini-campaigns (I've played it a few times and enjoyed it) but I don't think it has the chops for real campaign play. It's pretty quick to set up and play, with fairly customisable characters from the get-go, but it's a bit too limited for me long-term.
Blatant plug, my mate Whitt has a new cyberpunk game out - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/295936/Black-Code
It's a fun take on transhuman cyberpunk #NOTACULTIST
Thanks Spon, that's exactly the kind of info that's useful. We're going through our collections one-shotting things we haven't tried, and we aren't averse to a bit of PbtA, so this sounds like an ideal candidate. And I'll also check out your friend's game. Thanks again.
Quote from: tenbones;1115712Savage Worlds has been a very big (and needed) breath of fresh air for me. It really does hit a *lot* of the sweet-spots that I want in terms of "crunch"-to-"ease of play" factor. And its flexbility is undeniable.
While Interface Zero 3.0 is looking very very good to me. As a system it's a known quantity to my current group. But everyone is hyped for CPRed... but I'm the only one with a multi-decade history of running that game, literally no one else in my crew has ever played it (they're all Shadowrun players). It's going to be prove to be very interesting to see if Interlock is "too gritty" for them. But if so - Interface Zero will be right there.
Based on the jumpstart, CP Red isn't a game my group's going to like. Add in that SW does a lot of cool things in many genres, that IZ3.0 is really cool and IZ3.0 is going to do us well. Funny bit is that we did keep the life-path results from the jumpstart. :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1115925Based on the jumpstart, CP Red isn't a game my group's going to like. Add in that SW does a lot of cool things in many genres, that IZ3.0 is really cool and IZ3.0 is going to do us well. Funny bit is that we did keep the life-path results from the jumpstart. :)
I'm also pretty pumped about the IZ3.0 release and want to run a campaign for my group but I don't know of any available campaigns. Do you know of any that you would recommend?
Cheers,
Geo
Quote from: Furious George;1116003I'm also pretty pumped about the IZ3.0 release and want to run a campaign for my group but I don't know of any available campaigns. Do you know of any that you would recommend?
Cheers,
Geo
I believe a Plot Point is upcoming as are some Savage Tales, but I don't know when. The themes in the book are good at a prompt, but from there it's up to you. :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1115925Based on the jumpstart, CP Red isn't a game my group's going to like. Add in that SW does a lot of cool things in many genres, that IZ3.0 is really cool and IZ3.0 is going to do us well. Funny bit is that we did keep the life-path results from the jumpstart. :)
Yeah Lifepath is such a ridiculously good mechanic for any game.