Quote from: hedgehobbit;1113360There's a chicken and egg thing going on. Corporations can never get Mega big without a weak government. So, the government structure is required to be weak today for corporations to get larger than they currently are tomorrow.

Besides, the Mega Corp structure is inherently unstable because of the ownership problems. While it's possible to a company like Facebook to be owned by a single, very rich owner, a company like that cannot expand without selling (or trading away) shares in the company for cash to buy up other, smaller companies. Sooner or later, a majority of the equity of the corporation will be owned by investment firms. Firms which already own other large corporations. Either that or Megacorps will need to go in debt to expand so they will owe massive amounts of money to the banks which, themselves, are owned by investment firms.

So, for Megacorps to come into existence you need a very weak government unwilling to enforce their own anti-monopoly laws and, at the same time, you need investment firms to all agree to allow corporations to endlessly expand. And, even if both of those events occur, the MegaCorps will have so much of their equity owned by the investment firms that those firms, not the MegaCorps themselves, will be in control. The idea of MegaCorps running ops on each other (or, indeed, fighting each other directly) can't happen when both of those MegaCorps are owned by the same people.

I think you are missing a point in your analysis. The MegaCorps are presented as being the primary faces of competing Investment Firms, or rather Banks. Thats a driving factor in the Stormfront campaign, actually...  Even if Militech and Arasaka wanted to stop fighting before setting off a Tacnuke in California, they can't, because the banks that control their capital won't let them...

In fact, the entire Corporate war wasn't even between Militech and Arasaka but between two smaller Corps (let me check my books really quick...) OTEC and CINO, who are competing to buy up the assets of a third corp (IHAG), with the two security firms brought onboard to protect the assets, and eventually becoming the primary forces in the war.

The problem is in the perception of Megacorps themselves, taken from the street view. In the end of the day Militech isn't a Mega Corp at all... its a nearly wholly owned subsidiary with delusions of independence of a banking consortium...  

As I recall one of the 'background plot points' in the Fourth Corporate War books that ended the 2020 timeline is some banking execs that had kept the CINO/OTEC bidding war going to make a profit from the sale getting assassinated around the time the war went Hot, when Arasaka and Militech tossed aside considerations of profit and corporate politics over, essentially, National Pride.

The idea that some sort of cozy peace will break out because the corporations are all owned by teh same people, thus invalidating the entire 'ethos' of Cyberpunk games, is silly, because it ignores that there will still be competing interests backing the various sides.  There will be competing interests within each faction as well, both because of the classic 'left hand, right hand' issue, and also because once you're willing to hire criminal mercenaries to murder-steal corporate secrets to get ahead, why would you ever think to restrict yourself to 'approved enemies'?  This is a common feature of the various games, From Shadowrun, to Cyberpunk to SLA Industries (which, in fact, posits that there is only ONE megacorporation, and the 'shadowrunners' are de facto employees of said Megacorporation... and yet they will frequently be hired by one department IN CANON to run against other departments to some exec somewhere can get a promotion or pay-raise...)

The entire conversation around governments is based on the current Western status quo of governance, the Westphalian nation-state model. That model has only been in effect in the West, and in Western-influenced societies, since it was established in 1648 by the Treaty of Westphalia which ended the Thirty-Years War. And everything that has been said in this thread about governments is true within that model.

Some IRL observers are beginning to speculate that we may be living through the failure of that model. In which case, a currently-unknown successor model will be employed to provide governance - because human societies cannot function without some structure of governance. Whether that would more closely resemble a pre-Westphalian feudalism or something else entirely is anybody's guess.

In cyberpunk settings, corporations have taken on much of the governance role in the territorial areas they control. Distinct governments still exist, and play a variety of roles relative to the corporations. Thematically, the corporations are primary, and the governments secondary. Relative to the hypothetical end of the Westphalian model, this could be a state of transition, as the nation-state model fails and corporations move into the power vacuum. This does not mean that corporations would automatically be the long-term successors to the nation-state, though the first-mover advantage could position them for such.

Quote from: RandyB;1113373The entire conversation around governments is based on the current Western status quo of governance, ...

Corporations are creations of this status quo.

 

Quote from: RandyB;1113373...Relative to the hypothetical end of the Westphalian model, this could be a state of transition, as the nation-state model fails and corporations move into the power vacuum. This does not mean that corporations would automatically be the long-term successors to the nation-state, though the first-mover advantage could position them for such.

Impossible in real life; because corporations cannot exist without their patron government.

There area already plenty of real world examples of what happens to countries when the Westphalian nation-state model fails.

And there is not one single instance of a Corporation or business of any kind moving into the power vacuum.


The conceit of "Corporations taking over" Cyberpunk is a fantasy setting.

The wizarding world with "MegaCorp" instead of "Hogwarts".

I was just thumbing through the new Interface Zero 3.0 iteration (it's about to go to print)...

Gunmetal Games's setting is really the apotheosis of "cyberpunk" that crosses all the major lines of the genre and straddles them.

It's got *all* the major tropes wildly on display. Dystopian counter-culture, corporate/government hijinks run rampant, all the tech: cyber, bio, chemo, gene, nano etc. Even elements that would completely give you the Not-Shadowrun vibe - Psionics which is completely downplayed compared to previous editions (but this isn't the final iteration I think).

Artwork is excellent. Hacking rules that work alongside other actions (so no more need for the No Netrunning issue). I think they did damn fine job. I *really* need to take this out for a spin...

What infrastructure does a megacorp need in one country that it can't get in another?  
We have to pull out of China...Oh no, Vietnam.
We have to pull out of Hong Kong...Oh no, Taiwan. Indonesia. Mayasia. Thailand. Blah blah etc.

Some Country that isn't the US or EU blows up, you pick another, and it doesn't impact you much because you're already in so many.

All the arguments about Gov't being superior to current Megacorps applies only to the US, China, EU and Russia.  Any other country is meat for the beast.

US Megas don't have to compete with the US govt.  As long as money=speech and Corporations are allowed Free Speech, they'll own Congress.  They won't need their own military and security, because the most powerful nuclear military on earth invades other countries at their behest and enforces their will through economic treaties and global courts.

There's one commonality of all Cyberpunk histories that will need to happen in order for True Megas to arise - the collapse or partial collapse of Rule of Law in the US.   As long as Corporations control the only entity strong enough to sanction or eliminate them, they have no reason to bite the hand that feeds and protects.

With the gov't under control to a decent degree, the only possible threat to a US megacorp is an armed US populace.  Which is why Bond-Villain corps like Monsanto have been strapping up by purchasing armed security contracting companies.

The pieces are moving into place for something like the Shiawase Decision (which enshrined the concept of Corporate Extraterritoriality in Shadowrun history).  We just need mass civil unrest and /or partial governmental collapse for the pieces to start slotting into place.

I think the issue with megacorps is that they're massively unprofitable.
While "Born in a Evilcorp Crib and buried in an evilcorp coffin" sounds intimidating, unless Evilcrop is primarily a furniture manufacturer that would be massively unprofitable due to economies of scale and the way management is structured.
More importantly then IF a megacorp could take over is if a Megacorp would WANT to take over.

A "Megacorp becoming government" would be indistinguishable from a regular government. In fact in fiction most megacorps feel like they follow the Communist Profit model. As we all know the most profitable of governments.

A megacorp can manipulate the government and can be the "Power behind the throne" but it can't be the power in front of the throne because corps are notoriously responsibility and risk-averse.

Quote from: RandyB;1113373The entire conversation around governments is based on the current Western status quo of governance, the Westphalian nation-state model. That model has only been in effect in the West, and in Western-influenced societies, since it was established in 1648 by the Treaty of Westphalia which ended the Thirty-Years War. And everything that has been said in this thread about governments is true within that model.

Some IRL observers are beginning to speculate that we may be living through the failure of that model. In which case, a currently-unknown successor model will be employed to provide governance - because human societies cannot function without some structure of governance. Whether that would more closely resemble a pre-Westphalian feudalism or something else entirely is anybody's guess.

In cyberpunk settings, corporations have taken on much of the governance role in the territorial areas they control. Distinct governments still exist, and play a variety of roles relative to the corporations. Thematically, the corporations are primary, and the governments secondary. Relative to the hypothetical end of the Westphalian model, this could be a state of transition, as the nation-state model fails and corporations move into the power vacuum. This does not mean that corporations would automatically be the long-term successors to the nation-state, though the first-mover advantage could position them for such.

Interesting post. The essence of the Westphalian nation state is an entity having the monopoly over the legitimate use of force within a defined territory. I struggle to see why any entity structured as a modern-day corporation would ever want to take on such a role. But if it did, how would it be any different to a government? A nasty kind of oligarchy with a weird franchise, but still basically just another government.

Quote from: tenbones;1114711I was just thumbing through the new Interface Zero 3.0 iteration (it's about to go to print)...

Gunmetal Games's setting is really the apotheosis of "cyberpunk" that crosses all the major lines of the genre and straddles them.

It's got *all* the major tropes wildly on display. Dystopian counter-culture, corporate/government hijinks run rampant, all the tech: cyber, bio, chemo, gene, nano etc. Even elements that would completely give you the Not-Shadowrun vibe - Psionics which is completely downplayed compared to previous editions (but this isn't the final iteration I think).

Artwork is excellent. Hacking rules that work alongside other actions (so no more need for the No Netrunning issue). I think they did damn fine job. I *really* need to take this out for a spin...

I'd missed this. Will it only be for Savage Worlds? The previous version was done in versions for various rulesets. I'm not the biggest fan of SW.

Quote from: Jaeger;1113297That whole concept is a false conceit. As demonstrated by History and Reality.

The Corp > Govt conceit in cyberpunk isn't based on history or reality. In the genre, it represents an unnatural order that causes tremendous suffering and social upheaval, aka the Dystopia. It could not have existed in previous eras because Mega-Corps rely upon advanced tech which allowed it to upend the previous relationship between Corp and Govt.

Quote from: Jaeger;1113297It defies any kind of belief based in reality that any corporation can pull off what the HEIC still managed to fuck up with over a hundred years of Crown backing.

The HEIC members were not post-national globalists elites. Their members, most especially the rank and file, still viewed themselves as proper English citizens loyal to the Crown. The MegaCorp elites have no national pride, no national allegiance and no sense of belonging to something beyond their MegaCorp.

But as soon as you enter any kind of speculative fiction, you have to decide to put aside disbelief to enjoy the media. Everyone knows movies aren't real, but we still jump at fake monsters and cheer for imaginary characters who can't hear us.

Quote from: Jaeger;1113297The economic conceits behind Cyberpunk style Megacorps are no more based in reality than Hogwarts academy for young wizards.

You have made many good points worth considering. However, its your turn for the hot seat.

How would YOU make Cyberpunk Mega-Corps make sense in YOUR campaigns?

How would YOU keep the conceits of genre, yet make them work in actual play at YOUR table?

Overall, what would economics in YOUR cyberpunk dystopia look like?

Quote from: Jaeger;1113297But lets not pretend a school for young wizards could actually happen in real life.

Still more useful than a gender studies degree!!

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114811I think the issue with megacorps is that they're massively unprofitable.
While "Born in a Evilcorp Crib and buried in an evilcorp coffin" sounds intimidating, unless Evilcrop is primarily a furniture manufacturer that would be massively unprofitable due to economies of scale and the way management is structured.
More importantly then IF a megacorp could take over is if a Megacorp would WANT to take over.

A "Megacorp becoming government" would be indistinguishable from a regular government. In fact in fiction most megacorps feel like they follow the Communist Profit model. As we all know the most profitable of governments.

A megacorp can manipulate the government and can be the "Power behind the throne" but it can't be the power in front of the throne because corps are notoriously responsibility and risk-averse.

What you're missing is, "government" doesn't have to mean keeping the lights on and the roads paved.  It can also mean keeping Rule of Law through a binding web of treaties and laws.  The EU and UN are examples of "meta-governments", in which states willing give up some sovereignty in order to belong to a union that will help them decide disputes through some means other than armed conflict.

International Corps these days push nation states around all the time through the International Centre for the Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID).

Corporations can rule governments without removing them and replacing them.  In fact, the idea that Cyberpunk settings mean "Corps replace Gov't" is mainly a strawman.  In CP settings, Megas pull the strings and give governments orders, but don't take over the helm themselves.  Why bother, when you can just choose the most profitable service to privatize, and charge the gov't maximum price for it.

Look how PG&E is flexing its muscles now in CA.  They raked the people for high energy rates for decades and did little infrastructure maintenance.  When fires caused by their faulty equipment cost them money, they decided to brownout whole cities for days at a time as a "safety measure" to punish the state for actually holding them barely accountable.

Look up the Toyota Motor Group, are they profitable?
Now look at the Mitsubishi Group, whose keiretsu includes Japan’s largest bank.  Profitable?  Just a bit, yeah.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1114942What you're missing is, "government" doesn't have to mean keeping the lights on and the roads paved.

The government doesn't actually do that since its been licensing that to subcontractors since forever.
The binding laws part is the ONLY part that government really does. Which corps don't do which is the basis for the argument.

You also missed the part where I agreed with your principle that corps can influence. I don't know PG&E but your ramblings on it are starting to sound conspiratorial.

Quote from: Marchand;1114830I'd missed this. Will it only be for Savage Worlds? The previous version was done in versions for various rulesets. I'm not the biggest fan of SW.

The ONLY system I've heard this game will be for is SW. I re-checked the KS and it doesn't mention other systems anywhere in the Stretch Goals (but if I'm wrong, my bad).

BUT! that said... SWADE is 98% compatible with previous editions of SW. So if you're not averse to some mental-elbowgrease you could convert faily easily to your system of choice they used in 2.0 or 1.0

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114959The government doesn't actually do that since its been licensing that to subcontractors since forever.
The binding laws part is the ONLY part that government really does. Which corps don't do which is the basis for the argument.

You also missed the part where I agreed with your principle that corps can influence. I don't know PG&E but your ramblings on it are starting to sound conspiratorial.

Once governments cede certain legal authority to international corporate courts, the fall of any one non-superpower gov't is negligible to an entity the size of a global keiretsu-like Mega.  They will be able to protect their interests, if necessary, exfil personnel and resources and be able to wait it out, take advantage of the chaos, or get the hell out of dodge.

Government does provide services, in many cases, at the local level.  All the PG&E outages don't bother me, because I get my power from SMUD, a not-for-profit, community owned electric utility company.  

If you don't know about PG&E, it doesn't take much research.  PG&E was hit with a major lawsuit after their powerlines were found to be at fault in the Camp Fire, the deadliest wildfire in CA history.  This and other lawsuits due to their improperly maintained and out of date equipment caused the company to file bankruptcy.  Ever since then, when high winds are predicted in dry areas, they shut down the power, so as to prevent future lawsuits.

The problem is, supposedly, that their grid is so bad, that when they have to shut down one area, they have to shutdown many other areas as well in other counties that do not have wind advisories.  That they have to blackout so many customers for the areas suffering wind advisories is criticized by, well pretty much everyone.  Even ex-employees have said there's no way the blackouts need to be as extensive to prevent issues in high-wind areas.

PG&E got held accountable, and now it's putting the screws to CA, because they are asking the state for money to upgrade their infrastructure so they won't have to take such drastic measures.

In other words, they got held accountable, and so are trying to make the taxpayers pay for the improvements they should have been doing all along, or else enjoy a week without power whenever the winds whips up in NorCal.

I don't like defending PG&E, but their defense for the lack of infrastructure repair was because California has draconian environmental protection laws so if a certain tree was dead and full of powerlines, you could do nothing if that tree was home to some endangered squirrel, snail or sparrow. Thus, it was only a matter of time until all these old lines wrapped in dead trees became ground zero fire issues. As for why so many dead trees, let's remember California has been going through a massive multi-year drought and diverting water to its cities. So the entire debacle is a combo of greed, stupidity and virtue signalling on all fronts.

AKA, we are getting what we deserve.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1115003In other words, they got held accountable, and so are trying to make the taxpayers pay for the improvements they should have been doing all along, or else enjoy a week without power whenever the winds whips up in NorCal.

This speaks much more to massive incompetence and mismanagement then sinister plots. But I also know California is massively incompitent state as a whole so I unno.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1114919The Corp > Govt conceit in cyberpunk isn't based on history or reality. ...

This is truth.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1114919But as soon as you enter any kind of speculative fiction, you have to decide to put aside disbelief to enjoy the media. Everyone knows movies aren't real, but we still jump at fake monsters and cheer for imaginary characters who can't hear us.

And everyone has varying tolerances for this.

For Cyberpunk my tolerance is obviously lower than most.

The main reason being that the setting background always tries to tie conceit of the rise of "megacorps" to issues in the 'modern day' (Or at least modern day circa 1980's). And the ludicrousness of that conceit just permanently breaks my immersion bubble.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1114919You have made many good points worth considering. However, its your turn for the hot seat.

How would YOU make Cyberpunk Mega-Corps make sense in YOUR campaigns?

How would YOU keep the conceits of genre, yet make them work in actual play at YOUR table?

Overall, what would economics in YOUR cyberpunk dystopia look like?

Off the top of my head:

A corrupt government shortly after a big economic collapse + war. (insert fallout here) Has granted  various monopolies to big corporations to fill certain functions.

Kinda like What the Crown did for the East India company, except turned on its own people.

It would need to be carefully though through more, but that would be the jist.