Quote from: CRKrueger;1112522Yeah, that's one of the problems of Cyberpunk games.  Now that we are well within the "How we Got Here" history chapter of any Cyberpunk Game, and the writing is on the wall, playing the game as the ones fighting the power just reinforces the fact that in the real world, you're one of the narcissistic consumers that walks through life like a good little Sarariman, not seeing the chain around your neck or even worse, not caring.  It strikes way too close to home.

That is a good summation of my problem with cyberpunk games. The can still be fun, but they're not what they used to be: exploring what could happen if corporations dominated the world. We're already there to a certain extent (I even work for a big, multi-national corporation), so now the cyberpunk genre is at a crossroads: should it broaden out into sci-fi and ultimately become not very cyberpunk-y, or continue to remain unchanged and ultimately become less and less relevant thematically.

I remember trying to watch Netflix's show, Altered Carbon, and thinking, "Wow, this has great production value, but nothing really new." I never got passed the first episode because it seemed to be retreading known territory, just with Netflix money to make it look good (also, the opening firefight made me wince multiple times at the lack of tactics, so the show didn't start off strong for me).

Well I don't wanna go flying off the rails... and not wanting to dive into personal lives.

The reality is precisely what we accept. And the cyberpunk attitude is "I don't accept this" - the game is what one does about it.

There are emerging themes that inform new ground to cover in the cyberpunk genre. I think it's a little distressing to contemplate... but definitely gamifiable. I mentioned something about this in another thread that Spinachat asked me to post on (which I haven't... yet... for reasons) about putting down some ideas for an Redteam RPG.

I think it has WONDERFUL gaming potential. But it would be *extremely* controversial... I mean it's fine to play at ones table. But publication? HMMMMM....

It could be the Red Dawn of modern RPG's... very fitting for something like Cyberpunk. And while Home of the Brave covers it somewhat in CP2020, you only get to play in the aftermath. I'm a little more interested in playing through it... in a modern context.

Quote from: SirBercelak;1112523I remember trying to watch Netflix's show, Altered Carbon, and thinking, "Wow, this has great production value, but nothing really new." I never got passed the first episode because it seemed to be retreading known territory, just with Netflix money to make it look good (also, the opening firefight made me wince multiple times at the lack of tactics, so the show didn't start off strong for me).

I watched the first episode of Altered Carbon and had no plans to go further. Then a friend suggested I give it another chance. I watched the first episode again and still thought it wasn't good. My friend said "yeah, the first--OK, the first two episodes are weak, but it gets better" so I watched it again. He was right; it picked up around episode 3 and I enjoyed it overall. I did have to watch it with subtitles because some of the lines are so softly spoken compared to the other sounds that I couldn't make it out. Hilariously, one of the lines I couldn't make out just had the subtitle of <<>>.

Quote from: kosmos1214;1111983After rereading this I remembered a system Ive never played of even own based on the mega man franchise that might be of use .
Its called "the robotic age" by virtue of it's influances its going to be more of a trashumanist lean but might work.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/125430/The-Robotic-Age?manufacturers_id=5775

*note; To any one who's not familiar with megaman it pretty much turned in to trasehumanisem 101 with cyberpunk leanings in some games.

I've played that game with the creator at Phoenix comicon when it came out. Had a good time although I can't recall the specifics of the system, but it was fast paced and with pregens we had no trouble getting into it. The creator is a good dude too!

This might be of interest to some of you:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/283725
I find the price tag a bit steep for a PDF...

Carbon 2185 | A Cyberpunk RPG Core Rulebook

QuotePlay as a Cyberpunk, a rebel refusing to live life by the rules of the oppressive megacorporations that rule San Francisco in this high action tabletop roleplaying game by Robert Marriner-Dodds.
Carbon 2185 gives you the chance to play in the cyberpunk worlds you've seen in movies, television shows, and video games.
The Core Rulebook is the only thing you need to run and play hundreds of hours of games in the world of Carbon 2185.

I remember looking at the Kickstarter, and I think I was more interested in the dice than the game itself, but decided not to in the end.

Quote from: SirBercelak;1112523That is a good summation of my problem with cyberpunk games. The can still be fun, but they're not what they used to be: exploring what could happen if corporations dominated the world. We're already there to a certain extent (I even work for a big, multi-national corporation), so now the cyberpunk genre is at a crossroads: should it broaden out into sci-fi and ultimately become not very cyberpunk-y, or continue to remain unchanged and ultimately become less and less relevant thematically.
...

Except not really one you scratch the surface.

The problem I have with the Cyberpunk genre is that the core conceit of the genre: Mega Corporations taking over from governments.

That just can't and would never happen in real life.

Like the Star trek "post-scarcity" Society. That parts of its fandom actually think is possible.

Which is why I prefer to play in Sci-Fantasy settings like Star Wars; I know its sword and planet pulp. I can mentally disengage and enjoy it for what it is.

Rather than most Cyperpunk settings, which trip my preposterous alarm, because they keep trying to retcon the rise of "mega corps" from a version of our reality.

Quote from: kosmos1214;1112406My take is actually the opposite I think that the current state of things makes cyber punk even more important not less.

The current state of thing hasn't made cyberpunk more relevant, but it has exposed just how silly some of Cyberpunk's main tropes are. In cyberpunk, the evil corporation are always arms manufacturers or drug companies, yet we live in a world where two of the most evil corporations are a company that makes animated movies for kids and another that your parents use to post pictures of their family and pets. Is your wet work gonna be to sabotage the latest TV show?

And anyone with a modern phone or laptop knows just how temperamental modern tech is. Imagine if your arm or eyeball flaked out as much as your smart phone. Not only that, but considering how pervasive tech is, all those fancy cybernetic implants are going to have shutdown switches that local police can use. And if you don't have that tech install, the FIRST thing that will happen to you when you are arrested is all your expense implants get removed. You'll be sitting in jail with no arms and no eyes.

And that's not even considering how a supposedly oppressive government is going to let people walk around with guns in the first place.


I think it's best just to treat Cyberpunk as a retro future and enjoy it for what it was.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1112564I watched the first episode of Altered Carbon and had no plans to go further. Then a friend suggested I give it another chance. I watched the first episode again and still thought it wasn't good. My friend said "yeah, the first--OK, the first two episodes are weak, but it gets better" so I watched it again. He was right; it picked up around episode 3 and I enjoyed it overall. I did have to watch it with subtitles because some of the lines are so softly spoken compared to the other sounds that I couldn't make it out. Hilariously, one of the lines I couldn't make out just had the subtitle of <<>>.

And it's goes to shit around episode 7, that's what you trying to make an almost amoral TERRORIST with some kinda of freedom fighter fighting against the horrible white rich people.

And really, doing the same flashback multiple times is fucking annoying, just stop it and get over with it.

Quote from: Jaeger;1112627Except not really one you scratch the surface.

The problem I have with the Cyberpunk genre is that the core conceit of the genre: Mega Corporations taking over from governments.

That just can't and would never happen in real life.

Like the Star trek "post-scarcity" Society. That parts of its fandom actually think is possible.

Which is why I prefer to play in Sci-Fantasy settings like Star Wars; I know its sword and planet pulp. I can mentally disengage and enjoy it for what it is.

Rather than most Cyperpunk settings, which trip my preposterous alarm, because they keep trying to retcon the rise of "mega corps" from a version of our reality.

All right, you got me there, boss. As a proud member of the Austrian school of economics, I heartily agree: it is impossible. However, I also play and enjoy games with elves and magic in the setting, so as far as believability in core setting conceits, I'd say corporations taking over the world is about as believable as elves and magic. Still, I understand what you mean. We all have a certain amount of acceptable incredulity towards a setting's foundational beliefs, and some settings just cross that line.

Quote from: tenbones;1112524...
The reality is precisely what we accept. And the cyberpunk attitude is "I don't accept this" - the game is what one does about it.

There are emerging themes that inform new ground to cover in the cyberpunk genre. I think it's a little distressing to contemplate... but definitely gamifiable.
...

That's a good point. It goes back to what I believe is foundational to cyberpunk, i.e. not just the technology and current events of the setting but also the attitudes (see point #5 I made in my previous post). That's the fun part of it. I would like to understand more about what themes you find potentially distressing to explore, but I won't press you. You've already given me a few ideas to contemplate for now.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1112629...
I think it's best just to treat Cyberpunk as a retro future and enjoy it for what it was.

That's also a good observation. And why I feel apathy towards the genre in general. I chuckled a bit at your descriptions of those two companies, but you're spot on. There's really nothing new in terms of themes or exploring beyond the current themes in the lastest cyberpunk media offerings, and re-treading the same, well-worn ground just isn't interesting. As tenbones pointed out, anything creatively new might be too controversial to sell commercially. Creatively, cyberpunk feels stagnated to me. I can still have a good game or two with my friends, but after that 'punk itch has been scratched, I'm not terribly interested in it again for a couple months.

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1112631And it's goes to shit around episode 7, that's what you trying to make an almost amoral TERRORIST with some kinda of freedom fighter fighting against the horrible white rich people.

And really, doing the same flashback multiple times is fucking annoying, just stop it and get over with it.

I'm glad I stopped when I did then, hahaha.

Quote from: SirBercelak;1112714All right, you got me there, boss. As a proud member of the Austrian school of economics, I heartily agree: it is impossible. However, I also play and enjoy games with elves and magic in the setting, so as far as believability in core setting conceits, I'd say corporations taking over the world is about as believable as elves and magic. Still, I understand what you mean. We all have a certain amount of acceptable incredulity towards a setting's foundational beliefs, and some settings just cross that line.
...

LOL, We come from a similar direction; it's my understanding of the Austrian Economic theory and how corporations relate to, and are in fact creatures of government, that make the traditional cyberpunk "corporations taking over" conceit hard to dismiss in play.

The reason I find it easier to set aside my"world logic" a bit in Elf games and "sword and planet" Sci-fi; is that neither genre tries to make a direct connection to modern day circumstances when you are reading the setting info.

Now I do think that one can capture the feel of traditional "cyberpunk", Without the "Mega corps Rule!" meme. But it would involve writing the background setting so that it more resembles a high-tech version of the Great Depression/Economic collapse + wild west lawlessness + urban Sprawl + Government incompetence/corruption + surviving Big/Mega? Corporations running a amok in the Chaos, that society seems largely unable to pull itself out of...

Quote from: The_Shadow;1112255The whole "-punk" aesthetic was always left-wing.

I'd say it was more anarchistic than left wing, at least in an economic sense. Thinking of 70s punk, certainly in the UK, it strikes me more as youth rebelling against the system set up to reward their parents' generation after the war. Cosy but increasingly obviously dysfunctional corporatism, more or less 1950s morals. There was a fair amount of usage of Nazi symbols, basically to shock older people. To me, the essence of punk is rebellion against a system perceived to be corrupt and rigged against you, with a youthful take-it-all-the-way style and energy, rather than the compromises that usually come with age.

Quote from: SirBercelak;1112523That is a good summation of my problem with cyberpunk games. The can still be fun, but they're not what they used to be: exploring what could happen if corporations dominated the world. We're already there to a certain extent (I even work for a big, multi-national corporation), so now the cyberpunk genre is at a crossroads: should it broaden out into sci-fi and ultimately become not very cyberpunk-y, or continue to remain unchanged and ultimately become less and less relevant thematically.

I can't really get this. In the US you just had 8 years of Obama smacking any kind of business that moved with a random regulation machine, and then Trump starts a trade war with China that business lobbies hate and can do fuck-all about. How the hell can that be depicted as a world run by corporations?

How about Cybergeneration?

I hated it when I first read the core book and have never revisited. There must be some fans though, even here.

I'm personally rather fond of Cybergeneration, perhaps much as I am of certain bad movies.  Looking at it now, you can see where the wheels on Pondsmith's vision of Cyberpunk were starting to come off, but its honestly kinda neat, taken by itself and not part of a greater whole.

Of course, it DID come out during the White Wolf Era, so you not only have a 'splat' class in your specific nano-plague mutant superpower, but a SECOND Splat Class in your 'yo-gang'. Oh, Mad Mike... sigh...

Quote from: Marchand;1112769I'd say it was more anarchistic than left wing, at least in an economic sense. Thinking of 70s punk, certainly in the UK, it strikes me more as youth rebelling against the system set up to reward their parents' generation after the war. Cosy but increasingly obviously dysfunctional corporatism, more or less 1950s morals. There was a fair amount of usage of Nazi symbols, basically to shock older people. To me, the essence of punk is rebellion against a system perceived to be corrupt and rigged against you, with a youthful take-it-all-the-way style and energy, rather than the compromises that usually come with age.



I can't really get this. In the US you just had 8 years of Obama smacking any kind of business that moved with a random regulation machine, and then Trump starts a trade war with China that business lobbies hate and can do fuck-all about. How the hell can that be depicted as a world run by corporations?

Random regulation machine still turned into an ATM when the businesses started to fail. And the only business lobbies that don't like what Trump is doing are the ones looking after small business, the major corps just shrugged and adjusted supply chain routing to their predetermined, planned alternatives in the event of chinese market disruption. Which the chinese corps did as well, meaning that there's a lot of stuff changing hands in the Southeast Asia now, then changing hands again.

"Nah, we bought these microprocessors in Manilla. No chinese tax for them, thanks."