If you're GMing a game where the players are expected to roll stats, how often would you as GM roll up stats for NPCs - all the time, often, sometimes, occasionally just assign an appropriate number (i.e. because the guard captain should have a reasonable Strength, or the court wizard needs a high Intelligence?).
Also, if you do roll, do you tend to use less generous methods for NPCs (e.g. 3d6, instead of 4d6-L), and/or reroll ridiculous results? (e.g. I've rolled stats for an NPC who I was intending to be hag-esque, but gotten an 18 Charisma..).
I'll admit, if I am not handcrafting an important NPC, I will just go online and use an NPC generator to get the stats and everything else I need. I try to be the laziest GM I know. :D
I'll mix-and-match between the two. Sometimes I randomly roll all the stats, and sometimes I'll assign a stat based upon the NPC's description. Sometimes I'll assign only a single stat and randomly roll the rest.
Depends how rapidly this NPC moves up from periphery to full party focus. I've been surprised how even throw away characters who rolled up interesting Reaction Rolls ended up being useful adventure hooks later. Once they graduate to requiring more than 2 stats/skills for rolls and end up in 3 or more sessions, I tend to flesh out a stat sheet for them on an index card, just in case.
As for stat creation, I initially put in any number I feel like that justifies how I've been roleplaying them up to the present. This does include any previous quick rolls I made for an early stat or skill. Outside of placing those the rest tend to be a 3d6 or the like straight down, out of sheer speed and enjoying the random flavor. I don't like Mary Sues so 4d6 drop the lowest and the like are just unnecessary exercises in min-maxing. Since I just write in expected initial stats, I don't run into issues of hags getting 18 CHA and the like. At most I assume a baseline (such as class minimum requirement) and roll until I get the first number greater than or equal to that requirement. (Obviously in the hag example, if I really needed a random stat, I'd expect a CHA of 7 or less and roll 3d6 until I got the first number less than or equal to 7.)
I kind of work backwards so the NPCs will probably be all I have and I ad lib the everything else.
Generally, I assign stats and don't roll at all.
If I needed to generate a PC on the fly I would probably not roll stats at all because it slows down the game. So If the party meet a ticket conductor on a train and somehow that guy ends up getting involved I will give him a personality and a motivation (not being dead is usually sufficient) on the fly and if he needs to use a Stat I will assign it based on the situation and how it feels. Same goes for skills. Very occiassionally if the PCs get stuck I might give him a key stat to get them through a hole. So if they fail to notice that the ransom not is a quote from MacBeth then the train guy might be a literature nut, however that means I have made a rookie plot design error, the party can not complete the game unless they know arcane fact xxxxx, so it rarely comes up these days.
Quote from: jeff37923;557750I'll admit, if I am not handcrafting an important NPC, I will just go online and use an NPC generator to get the stats and everything else I need. I try to be the laziest GM I know. :D
This. But it is well known I am the laziest GM ever.;)
If I don't have access to that for some reason I kinda just wing it or use 3d6 reroll for ridiculous results. But mostly I just pull an appropriate number out of my ass.
Point buy or one of the 3.5 stat arrays is usually a good compromise. You still get a reasonably balanced character, but you also don't unexpectedly end up with Bobo the 9-Int wizard.
Some interesting answers. Thanks people.
Re. Mary Sues (which I think OpaOpa bought up)...as a player I've occasionally been cheesed off before by e.g. Ed Greenwood NPCs for 2E, which hardly ever had anything under a 15. Or in Palladium by how many of the TMNT archvillains and scientists have Ints of 30+ that are actually impossible to roll.
Quote from: fectin;558275Point buy or one of the 3.5 stat arrays is usually a good compromise. You still get a reasonably balanced character, but you also don't unexpectedly end up with Bobo the 9-Int wizard.
I think point-buy/default array for NPCs probably won't be too different to letting the GM just pick a number, in alot of cases. You assume the hag 'bought' an 8 charisma, and they'll probably have points elsewhere, even if you don't end up using that 15 Int...
Which probably is an argument for allowing both point-buy and random-roll for PCs as well just to me fair- or at least a random method with some choices ...though mind you, I'm not sure anyone advocates always using 3d6 straight down the line for PCs anymore these days...?
It's a little different than just picking a number, if only because your highest number is constrained and you don't end up with 18s in three stats (i.e. you avoid the Greenwood issue you just mentioned).
Ultimately though, everything other than the PCs is just the DM making stuff up anyway, so any option is going to be more of a rubric than a rule. You can make up whatever numbers you want for NPCs, so what you really are looking for is a way to easily make up reasonable numbers. You are right in that point buy is still basically just picking numbers, but it's easy, and at least you're confined to reasonable numbers.
I hate using PC stats for NPCs. Especially monsters. It's too damn much work for something that exists mostly to be murdered.
Both Drums of War and Hulks and Horrors use simplified saving throw values in place of full stats for their NPC monster stats, reserving full PC stats largely for special characters intended to be around a while.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;558278...though mind you, I'm not sure anyone advocates always using 3d6 straight down the line for PCs anymore these days...?
I may not advocate it, but lately I'm tired of the '4 hour chargen session' (I'm looking at you 3e & Pathfinder). Lately I just 3d6 it straight down, or allow you to shuffle if I'm feeling nice that day. Let's play already, don't get too attached to some ridiculously special niche. People end up having more imaginary game time crafting the most obscure PC but only play less than 5 sessions with them. So now I run through quick chargen and explicitly state that setting anomalies will be treated as threats and freaks accordingly... I've turned into a grumpy puss.
And stay off my lawn! :rant: /threadjack now over
I also advocate 3d6 in order. H&H is built around it. There are other options, buried in the GM's house rules section in the back, but the default and most advocated option in the core rules is 3d6 in order.
3d6 in order is awesome. You never know what you're going to get, and you just roll with whatever the dice of the universe throw at you. It's just cool.
Quote from: Benoist;5583193d6 in order is awesome. You never know what you're going to get, and you just roll with whatever the dice of the universe throw at you. It's just cool.
For me you better do 4d6 drop 1. I can take in order though. If not you will be watching me rolling several times to actually get a character that is by the actual rules playable, fair warning because I am without a doubt the worst dice roller in the history of rpg's.:)
It has happened on more than one occasion that everybody gets so frustrated that the DM will order other players to roll up my character.
In the past, I always enjoyed rolling up NPCs, even apparently minor ones. The stats might suggest a way of playing them that I enjoyed.
However, time becomes increasingly valuable, and I can't always put the same amount of time into game prep as I used to enjoy doing.
For that reason, I like to use 'default arrays', arranged as approrpiate for the particular enemy. Major villains (at least, those intended to be) use the same generation method as PCs. Usually 4d6 drop the lowest arrange as desired in 3.x
Quote from: deadDMwalking;558557In the past, I always enjoyed rolling up NPCs, even apparently minor ones. The stats might suggest a way of playing them that I enjoyed.
However, time becomes increasingly valuable, and I can't always put the same amount of time into game prep as I used to enjoy doing.
For that reason, I like to use 'default arrays', arranged as approrpiate for the particular enemy. Major villains (at least, those intended to be) use the same generation method as PCs. Usually 4d6 drop the lowest arrange as desired in 3.x
For some reason I haven't really done that but standard arrays should work perfectly. It's just that canny players may catch on.
I have a rule. You roll it you play it.
So you want to roll 3d6 straight then cool but there are no unplayable characters and their are no I will get this PC killed as quickly as possible cos he has 3 stats under 9. So generally if you die your next PC comes with a disadvantage because I am horrible.
We have to remember that people are playing to have fun though its not an exam. If the player hears about your cool campaign based on the Spartacus TV show and really wants to play it and then he rolls so badly that his only option is to play an unattractive especially clumsy house slave then I understand that they might not have much fun becuase that wasn;t the game they came to play. Rather than have those players trying to loose their weak PC I would rather have them roll a PC they want to play so I use 4d6 drop arrange. Remembering that what you roll you keep.
Players can get really creative. A PC a couple of hears back was shit really poor stats I think 1 15 and maybe 4 less than 9, so they played a child thief, with annoying heavy does of Short Round of course.
But it explained why the PC had 7 Str, 7 Wisdom and some other crappy stats. so meh.
In my heartbreaker I have 3 option to generate stats.
Each stat is a modifier from -5 through to +5
You can
i) roll straight and keep the numbers in order. If you do and your total is less than -5 You can add 5 points anywhere , from -4 through to 0 you add 1,2,3,4
ii) you roll and arrange to taste. You get no bonus points
iii) you can point by and you will probably end up with a total of close to 0 but the scale is not smooth and so high bonuses are very expensive and so rare.
So effectively the straight roller has the best deal but if you really want to play a certain character idea you can go option 2 and if you want to eliminate all risk in return for a character who will be weaker than average you can do that as well.
Unless the NPC is major or important I will just use a set of stock stats.
When prepping the start of a new campaign one of the first tasks is creating stock stats for NPCs and other creatures in the general area of play.
One set for standard guard, active adult, sedentary adult, typical child, and a few other commonly needed individuals. All these stats will be in the average to slightly below average range.
For a particular NPC that has a strongly defining characteristic, I will pick the characteristic and give it a decently high score. A smith might get a boosted STR & INT if he/she is supposed to be a really good at the craft.
Everyone else just uses the average stats for their category. Thats what average is. :)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;558619Unless the NPC is major or important I will just use a set of stock stats.
When prepping the start of a new campaign one of the first tasks is creating stock stats for NPCs and other creatures in the general area of play.
One set for standard guard, active adult, sedentary adult, typical child, and a few other commonly needed individuals. All these stats will be in the average to slightly below average range.
For a particular NPC that has a strongly defining characteristic, I will pick the characteristic and give it a decently high score. A smith might get a boosted STR & INT if he/she is supposed to be a really good at the craft.
Everyone else just uses the average stats for their category. Thats what average is. :)
I am basically the same but the net result is you don't need any stats. Why stat out 2 dozen villagers if you know that the only exceptional ones are the blacksmith with 16 Str and 14 Co, the town drunk with 16 Wis and the old wise woman with 16 Chr that has no powers but used to be a bit of a looker
I am way to lazy to stat any of the other ones ... what is the point?
Quote from: jibbajibba;558620I am basically the same but the net result is you don't need any stats. Why stat out 2 dozen villagers if you know that the only exceptional ones are the blacksmith with 16 Str and 14 Co, the town drunk with 16 Wis and the old wise woman with 16 Chr that has no powers but used to be a bit of a looker
I am way to lazy to stat any of the other ones ... what is the point?
I can see the benefit being that as GM, the NPCs surprise you. You will get some silly answers occasionally, but it gives extra info for the GM as well that they can incorporate and use as inspiration. So if the tavern wench has an 18 Intelligence, perhaps she's also an apprentice for the local wizard, or has dreams of leaving and becoming a wizard, or the old cleric at the local temple rolled a 17 Dex so you decide that he used to be a thief in his younger days, but saw the light and dual classed...or if the you get a 5 for the innkeeper's Strength, its actually the innkeeper's young son at the bar while his ageing father (Con 7) is off sick...
EDIT: Granted its more work though. I don't think there are right/wrong answers, it just depends on how much idea the GM has in advance for what his NPCs are like.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;558622I can see the benefit being that as GM, the NPCs surprise you. You will get some silly answers occasionally, but it gives extra info for the GM as well that they can incorporate and use as inspiration. So if the tavern wench has an 18 Intelligence, perhaps she's also an apprentice for the local wizard, or has dreams of leaving and becoming a wizard, or the old cleric at the local temple rolled a 17 Dex so you decide that he used to be a thief in his younger days, but saw the light and dual classed...or if the you get a 5 for the innkeeper's Strength, its actually the innkeeper's young son at the bar while his ageing father (Con 7) is off sick...
How many NPCs do you stat out like this? A small village like Hommlet would require you to roll a shitload of stats!
:confused:
QuoteEDIT: Granted its more work though. I don't think there are right/wrong answers, it just depends on how much idea the GM has in advance for what his NPCs are like.
For me it's a simple rule of thumb:
Important NPCs -roll stats, assign numbers if necessary to get the class you want.
Everyone else -assume they're average across the board with maybe 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 potentially being better or worse.
Quote from: Elfdart;558629How many NPCs do you stat out like this? A small village like Hommlet would require you to roll a shitload of stats!
:confused:
For me it's a simple rule of thumb:
Important NPCs -roll stats, assign numbers if necessary to get the class you want.
Everyone else -assume they're average across the board with maybe 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 potentially being better or worse.
True...maybe just the ones the PCs are going to run into (innkeeper, blacksmith, wisewoman, etc...). Or just roll until you have enough weirdos for the whole village, then assign them an appropriate spot (village idiot, blacksmith, innkeeper, whatever) and the rest can be average.
I'd be more likely to be rolling a stat on the spot when improvising an NPC I hadn't planned out for whatever reason, but it'd probably be too slow to do the whole set.
D&D: For the most part, I assume that everyone is average and use hit dice for saves and attack bonuses and whatever. For a more important adversary or what not I might roll or craft something, but it's really not very likely. I do make up virtually all of my own monsters and critters, though.
ICONS: At one time I was using the software to make my npcs, but I know the game well enough that I can actually make characters up faster by hand. I usually replace coordination and prowess with a single number, assign a stamina score and go. If for some reason, I need more detail I roll it up on the spot- but that's only happened like once.
Quote from: J Arcane;558296I hate using PC stats for NPCs. Especially monsters. It's too damn much work for something that exists mostly to be murdered.
Both Drums of War and Hulks and Horrors use simplified saving throw values in place of full stats for their NPC monster stats, reserving full PC stats largely for special characters intended to be around a while.
I like it when a game has shorthands for NPCs. I too can't be bothered for a full stat sheet for certain characters. One reason I like sticking with certain systems is that after a while, I can draft up whole bad guys off the top of my head with the right level of difficulty I intended for the party.
I almost never bother rolling stats for NPCs. I assign NPCs whatever abilities I think they should have. (And while they often are, they don't necessarily need to be "legal" according to PC chargen rules; I might have a 0-level tailor who can shoot a crossbow like a 7th level Fighter, or whatever...)
Quote from: jibbajibba;558620I am basically the same but the net result is you don't need any stats. Why stat out 2 dozen villagers if you know that the only exceptional ones are the blacksmith with 16 Str and 14 Co, the town drunk with 16 Wis and the old wise woman with 16 Chr that has no powers but used to be a bit of a looker
I am way to lazy to stat any of the other ones ... what is the point?
I don't bother statting out regular individuals. I just use the generic set for all npcs of a given type. Farmer Joe and farmer Bob don't get individual statblocks, they, along with the many other farmers use the generic active adult stats.
I like to have the generic sets available because you never know who will end up getting interacted with and how.
If the PCs stroll into town and the wizard wants to charm a beggar kid to serve as unobtrusive eyes and ears then having a set of stats on hand for important stuff like INT is handy.
I will roll the crap out of NPC personality tables and roll some ad hoc reaction rolls between NPCs to flesh out a relationship network. Now that is useful and done way before NPC attribute stats. I usually like three adjectives to get a personality, and yes the AD&D DMG is solid gold for this stuff.
Knowing that the blacksmith is a belligerent boor with a heart of gold and has a bad reaction to the parsimonious but methodically protective town alderman is just priceless NPC information that writes its own living world interactions. (That and polysyllabic adjectives tend to wither the fun balloon of consummate math fapping munchkins! I kid, I kid. It's because I love, y'know...)
Like many others have mentioned, I don't stat out NPCs unless they're going to be actively participating in adventuring, whether as an ally or antagonist. No point to it.
The only times I ever roll stats for NPCs is if they are basically party members; and even then sometimes I don't.
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