I have always like ther roll 4d6, droping the low die, in order method.

As a player it was more fun to have a the challange of playing a fighter with average or below strength or dex.

I think to many people lose sight of the fact that the stats are also supposed tell you about the nature of your character. How he may look, talk, or what he might do in a given situation. Players tend to be too hung up on getting the "best build".

Quote from: SosthenesFor 3E, you might be right. I've almost never encountered this stat inflation before, where we took our 6 con an were happy with it, godammit...

I think it was common among many groups way before 3E.  I remember noticing a decade or so ago that most of the character stats in Dragon were virtually unattainable by normal rolling, with 12-14 as the low stats.  Plus, I remember groups where every fighter had percentile strength.


In addition to rolling in order, a fun thing to try is to choose race and then roll dice.  That way race is more than an exageration of what was already rolled and you might wind up with a strong halfling or a charming dwarf.

Wow... that runs absolutely counter to my actual play experience...  

I see very, very few 18's to start with in 3.x games.  Every character in a 1e or 2e game I ever saw had at least one 18, and most had 16's or so supporting that.

OTOH, my players are very happy with a 14 or so in 3.x.  Not only does it give some noticeable in-game effect, it can be easily increased later on without the use of Wish spells.

-O

Quote from: SosthenesFor 3E, you might be right. I've almost never encountered this stat inflation before, where we took our 6 con an were happy with it, godammit... One of the major culprits is that it's more easy to get a bonus now, so everybody wants in on the game. It might sound paradox, but when you had to have an even higher stat to get a bonus, people were more content with their average ones.

And BTW, my favorite stat generation method for OGL games: Conan. 8+1d10, +1 to _every_ stat every four levels, plus the usual raise.

Quote from: NicephorusIn addition to rolling in order, a fun thing to try is to choose race and then roll dice.  That way race is more than an exageration of what was already rolled and you might wind up with a strong halfling or a charming dwarf.

i'd like to try that!

Quote from: obrynWow... that runs absolutely counter to my actual play experience...  

You should sit in the game I'm in now. My character is the 'weakest' stat wise with only two 18's.

Ironically, I think he was the most powerful, though missing two games in a 2nd level game is painful. Of course the other cleric (who, it should be pointed out, started 1st level with 27 hp...) died while I was gone, so he might not have caught back up yet.... We shall see when next we play.

I guess personally, I play them how the dice fall.  Then again, I like random chargen and then trying to figure out the details of the character.  With many of the groups I've played with though it was taken for granted that you would cheat or min-max a little to get a character you wanted to play.  It was a minor GM allowance so the players would want to play.  I never liked the allowances which routinely made me the weakest character in the group.  I never cared if other people did it though.

Quote from: SosthenesWow. It seems there's a whole bunch of players who won't like their characters unless they start as the best of the best. So, am I right in the assumption that no one starts their players at level 1, either?

It Depends.

I'm all over the board with stats.  I've ran campaigns where I told players to write down whatever they wanted.  Some players took me up on it and put down all 18's.  Other times I favor rolling 3d6 in order.  As a player I don't like agonizing over how to allocate stat points.  I'd rather be given something like the Elite Array to assign or just roll the dice.

QuoteWow. It seems there's a whole bunch of players who won't like their characters unless they start as the best of the best. So, am I right in the assumption that no one starts their players at level 1, either?

I sure as hell don't.  1st-level D&D blows, hard, and not in that good way.  

And it isn't a matter of "starting out powerful", it's a matter of starting out competent.  1st level D&D characters are utter weaklings who'd be lucky to hold their own in combat against a wet cat, let alone any kind of interesting opponent.  

It's worse still if you made the foolish decision to play an arcane caster at that level, since the wierd bell curve design of their power progression means that pretty much, until you hit about 5th level, you're dead weight for the party.  No decent spells, no defenses, no hit points, no BAB.

Quote from: J ArcaneI sure as hell don't.  1st-level D&D blows, hard, and not in that good way.  

And it isn't a matter of "starting out powerful", it's a matter of starting out competent.  1st level D&D characters are utter weaklings who'd be lucky to hold their own in combat against a wet cat, let alone any kind of interesting opponent.  

It's worse still if you made the foolish decision to play an arcane caster at that level, since the wierd bell curve design of their power progression means that pretty much, until you hit about 5th level, you're dead weight for the party.  No decent spells, no defenses, no hit points, no BAB.

Actually at low levels, the Wizard can make a competent support warrior.  At least from my actual play experience.

The Wizard is a decent archer till about level 3 or so.  At level one, everyone's got a shitty to-hit rating, so sitting there with a +0 BAB and a crossbow isn't going to be much of a hindrance.  The problem is the ever-present "firing into melee" penalty, so when that tactic doesn't seem worthwhile, then you can wade into melee.

You heard me.  Pull out that quarterstaff, club, or dagger, and charge in with the rest of them.  Just remember that your purpose is to be support, not a mainline fighter.  Also remember that you can take a standard action to go to a Total Defense, getting a whopping (for first level) +4 AC modifier.  And going total defense does not negate your ability to setup a flank for your mainline fighter or rogue, so take advantage of that.

Also, a Wizard is usually bloated with skill points.  And they'll be getting surplus skill points as they increase their Intelligence scores.  So it doesn't hurt to max out Bluff or Intimidate at first level for combat use, especially since you probably also speak enough languages to get your point across...

Quote from: SosthenesWow. It seems there's a whole bunch of players who won't like their characters unless they start as the best of the best. So, am I right in the assumption that no one starts their players at level 1, either?

I always start players at level one, and plan on retirement at around level 5-8.  I've never GMed a campaign past 8th level.  I like the low levels, the struggling average joe growing into a hero.  I'm not big on battling dragons and demi-gods, and all that crap, so higher levels have little appeal to me.

Quote from: SpikeYou should sit in the game I'm in now. My character is the 'weakest' stat wise with only two 18's.

Ironically, I think he was the most powerful, though missing two games in a 2nd level game is painful. Of course the other cleric (who, it should be pointed out, started 1st level with 27 hp...) died while I was gone, so he might not have caught back up yet.... We shall see when next we play.

Yeeeesh.  I hope it's fun.  This kind of thing tends to turn me off games right quick.  As a matter of fact, now that I think of it, it did turn me off one game I played in...

I think in the right circumstances (e.g. you're playing in Dark Sun or some mythical setting), stats like that can rock.  Otherwise, it just throws so much stuff out of the curve for D&D for my DMing or playing comfort.

-O

By the way, just to boggle all those folks who "only play at level 1," here's the character I'm playing in mrlost's game.  Re-built after a single session of play about a year or so ago (since I lost the character sheet).  And yeah, I realize it breaks at least one rule, but DM fiat and all that.  This monstrosity is ECL 27 or so.

Charbok CR 15
Mind Flayer psion (telepath) 2; vampire lord
NE Medium undead (augmented aberration)
Init +12; Senses darkvision 60 feet (12 squares), telepathy 100 feet (20 squares); Listen +29, Spot +29
Languages Abyssal, Common, Illithid (Mind Flayer), Beholder, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Ignan, Infernal, Orc, Terran, Undercommon
---
AC 29, touch 18, flat-footed 21; +1 Dodge feat to target
hp 79 (10D12+10 HD); fast healing 8; DR 15/adamantine
Immune mind-affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death, critical hits, nonlethal damage, physical ability score damage, fatigue, exhaustion, negative energy (heals), any effect that requires a Fort save (unless it works on objects or is harmless), massive damage, raise dead, reincarnate, and does not need to breathe, eat, or sleep.
Resist cold 10, electricity 10; SR 32; Turn Resistance +12
Fort +20, Ref +28, Will +33
---
Weakness -4 to all ability scores, saves, and skill checks in direct sunlight, cannot use vampiric supernatural powers
Spd 30 ft. (6 squares); fly (perfect) 50 ft. (10 squares) or  20 ft. (4 squares) as mist
Melee slam +15 (1D6+8) and
4 tentacles +10 (1D4+4)
Space 5 ft; Reach 5 ft
Base Atk +7/+2; Grp +15
Atk Options psionic powers; combat reflexes (9 AoOs)
Special Actions blood drain, energy drain, extract, improved grab, mind blast
Powers (ML 11th, 313 Power Points, +15 melee touch, +15 ranged touch)
1st - Detect Psionics, Force ScreenAUG, Inertial ArmorAUG, Mind ThrustAUG (DC 28 Will n.), VigorAUG
2nd - Brain LockAUG (DC 29 Will n.), Concealing Amorpha, Read Thoughts (DC29 Will n.),  Tongues, Psionic
3rd - Dispel PsionicsAUG, Empathic Transfer, Hostile AUG (mind-affecting, DC 30 Will ½), Energy Wall, TouchsightAUG
4th - Detect Remote Viewing, MindwipeAUG (DC 31 For n.), Schism, Trace TeleportAUG
5th - Major Creation, Psionic, Mind Probe (mind-affecting, DC 32 Will part.), Plane Shift, Psionic, True Seeing, Psionic
6th - Cloud Mind, Mass (DC 33 Will n.)
Spell-Like Abilities At will -- control weather (CL 12th), fog cloud (CL 12th)
---
Abilities Str 26, Dex 26, Con --, Int 45, Wis 22, Cha 32
SQ At will -- Alternate Form (Su), Children of the Night (Su), Create Spawn (Su), Gaseous Form (Su), Spider Climb (Ex), Telekinesis (Su), Telepathy 100 ft.
Feats AlertnessB, Combat ReflexesB, DodgeB, Improved InitiativeB, Iron WillB, LeadershipB, and Lightning ReflexesB, Extend Power (psionic), Psionic Meditation (psionic), Power Penetration (psionic), Greater Power Penetration (psionic), Quicken PowerB (psionic)
Skills Appraise +17, Balance +8, Bluff +24, Climb +8, Concentration +24, Craft (any) +17, Diplomacy +21, Disguise +24 (+26 acting), Escape Artist +8, Forgery +17, Gather Information +13, Heal +17, Hide +16, Intimidate +18, Jump +8, Knowledge (architecture) +22, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +22, Knowledge (geography) +22, Knowledge (history) +22, Knowledge (local) +22, Knowledge (nature) +22, Knowledge (nobility) +22, Knowledge (psionics) +34, Knowledge (religion) +22, Knowledge (the planes) +22, Listen +29, Move Silently +21, Perform (any) +11, Psicraft +32, Ride +8, Search +25 (+27 secret doors), Sense Motive +18, Spot +29, Survival +6 (+8 aboveground, underground, planes, avoid hazards, avoid getting lost), Swim +8, Use Rope +8
Possessions bracers of armor +1, headband of epic intellect +12, epic rod of invulnerability, ring of epic psionics IX, boots of teleportation, 0 gp
---
Alternate Form (Su) A vampire lord can assume the form of any animal, as the druid ability wild shape used by a 12th-level druid (tiny, 12 hours, PHB 37). The vampire lord can use this power at will as a move-equivalent action. The vampire lord can change from one animal shape to another without having to revert to its original form.
Blood Drain (Ex) A vampire lord can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4+4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire lord gains 5 temporary hit points.
Children of the Night (Su) Vampire lords command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire lord until released. Further, the vampire lord can sense through the senses of any such commanded creatures, and communicate empathically with them, to a range of 10 miles.
Control Weather (Sp) A vampire lord can cast either control weather (PHB 214) or fog cloud (PHB 232) as a 12th-level sorcerer at will.
Create Spawn (Su) A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire lord's energy drain rises as a vampire slave 1d4 days after burial.
The new vampire is under the command of the vampire lord that created it and remains enslaved until its master's destruction. At any given time a vampire lord may have enslaved vampires totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice (20 slaves); any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire lord can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire lord may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire cannot be enslaved again.
Domination (Su) A vampire lord can crush an opponent's will just by looking onto his or her eyes or speaking. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire lord must use a standard action and the target does not have to be within line of sight, and those merely looking at it are not affected. The target must be able to hear the vampire lord's voice when it speaks at a normal volume level. Anyone the vampire lord targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire lord's influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th, DC 23). The ability has a range of 30 feet (6 squares).
Energy Drain (Su) Living creatures hit by a vampire lord's slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire lord might possess) gain three negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire lord gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire lord can use its energy drain ability once per round.
Extract (Ex) A mind flayer that begins its turn with all four tentacles attached and that makes a successful grapple check automatically extracts the opponent's brain, instantly killing that creature. This power is useless against constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead. It is not instantly fatal to foes with multiple heads, such as ettins or hydras.
Fast Healing (Ex) A vampire lord heals 8 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 24 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire lord forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire lord is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round. A vampire lord can have many places of rest prepared, since the only requirement is some soil from its homeland (the place where the base vampire was born).
Gaseous Form (Su) As a standard action, a vampire lord can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a mind flayer must hit a Small, Medium, or Large creature with its tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and attaches the tentacle to the opponent's head. A mind flayer can grab a Huge or larger creature, but only if it can somehow reach the foe's head. If a mind flayer begins its turn with at least one tentacle attached, it can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check. The opponent can escape with a single successful grapple check or an Escape Artist check, but the mind flayer gets a +2 circumstance bonus for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent's turn.
Mind Blast (Ps) This psionic attack is a cone 60 feet long (12 squares). Anyone caught in this cone must succeed on a DC 25 Will save or be stunned for 3d4 rounds. Mind flayers often hunt using this power and then drag off one or two of their stunned victims to feed upon. The save DC is Charisma-based. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.
Psionic Powers (Ps) A psionic mind flayer manifests powers as a psion (telepath) of 9th level. The save DCs are Intelligence based.
Spider Climb (Ex) A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Telekinesis (Su) A vampire lord can use telekinesis (caster level 12th) at will.

Redfox: Oh Jesus!

Grubman: If you've never GM'd a group higher than 8th, how do you know if you wouldn't like it!

I had to run a few campaigns before I could tell where the best level range is for me. I kinda like 5th-12th or so, I guess. (Which isn't that different from Grubman's, really.) The long haul of 1-20 makes for great "basic-to-immortals" style continuity, though.

Although not quite ECL 27. YIKES!

Quote from: RedFoxYou heard me.  Pull out that quarterstaff, club, or dagger, and charge in with the rest of them.  Just remember that your purpose is to be support, not a mainline fighter.  Also remember that you can take a standard action to go to a Total Defense, getting a whopping (for first level) +4 AC modifier.  And going total defense does not negate your ability to setup a flank for your mainline fighter or rogue, so take advantage of that.

You do not threaten squares you cannot make an attack into, and you cannot make any attacks (including attacks of opportunity) when on total defense. this means you cannot help someone flank while you are on total defense.

Not to mention that total defense means your AC is now almost as good as a rogue, but your body is more squishy.

I'd recommend taking the -4 for firing into melee penalty and hoping to roll high.