Quote from: mythusmageSo the claim changed to Ars Magica was an accurate representation of how the people of the time saw their world. From my reading of fourth and fifth edition, that's the game's take to this day. There is a huge problem with that.

Well, there are a number of huge problems with that.  Yeah, I've dealt with this before, and I completely disagree with the claim -- but if you ignore that claim, Ars Magica is still a good game.  You just have to drop the idea that "Mythic Europe (TM)" is an accurate representation of historical thoughts and beliefs, which I don't think is an inherent part of the game.  It's like saying the D&D emulates Tolkien.  It doesn't, and if you're expecting Tolkien based on the similarities you'll be severely disappointed.  But I don't think this means that either are a bad game inherently.  

I also agree with clash that the term "start with the shark" is a silly term, since it seems to simply means "I really didn't like it".  I think it's better to just say that.

Especially seeing as the term "Jump the shark" specifically means the point at which something good became crap.  You can't start off by jumping the shark because then there's no "becoming"... there's just "is".

Gosh... don't I sound like Hegel?

The ahistorical element in AM is the hermetic magi, as correctly noted that is not remotely within the medieval paradigm, which is why I dropped them from my game.

Quote from: mythusmageMost of the talk about Ars Magica being historically accurate appeared in the fan publishing of the time. Fanzines and the like. Jonathan Tweet was a contributor to Alarums and Excursions at the time, and he touted the historical accuracy of Ars Magica there.

Until, that is, fellow contributors called malarky on that. So the claim changed to Ars Magica was an accurate representation of how the people of the time saw their world. From my reading of fourth and fifth edition, that's the game's take to this day. There is a huge problem with that. That problem being the Wizards.

Jonathan and Mark were right about Magic Users in D&D; at medium or higher levels they did dominate the game. By ninth level Fighting Men and Clerics (later Thieves, Rangers, and Paladins) were relegated to bodyguards and medics. Support staff for all intents and purposes. Ars Magica acknowledged this state of affairs and codified it.

However, in the Europe that was (later, the Europe as it saw itself) wizards did not hobnob with the world the way they do in D&D. At least not as far as Tweet and Rhein*hagen could see. So Ars Magica Wizards got secret headquarters, a secret cabal, and a secret tradition.

Trouble is, the Hermetic Tradition is a product of the Rennaissance. A period sometime after that of Ars Magica. Cabals too are a relatively modern thing. As for secret headquarters ... bandit lairs and the like do qualify, but where they pertain to secret traditions and secret cabals, that too is more recent than the Ars Magica version. In truth, even when the Hermetic Tradition arose real world wizards and alchemists were very much involved in the world. Courts throughout Europe had astrologers, many monarchs and nobles hired alchemists, and no less than Elizabeth the First of England had her own court wizard in the person of John Dee.

The whole sequestering of Wizards in the game came about as a way to explain why they didn't dominate the mundane world the way they did the arcane. Something which flies in the face of basic human nature. Especially when you're talking about people with the power Ars Magica wizards hold.

That we'll be looking at in my next post.

For the record, there is a substantial number of people who suspect that John Dee and Edward Kelley were actually spies. Kelley had a pretty scurrilous background as a petty criminal. Those two might have been taking advantage of their financial and social betters using this Enochian gobbledigook as a ruse.

Most of the Hermetic tradition was based on medieval texts that were forged and forged again, and then falsely attributed to various learned, pseudo-legendary figures, most prominently Hermes Trismegistus.

I believe that many of the ideas we get about magical guilds probably come from the magic "lodges" of the early 19th century, like the Golden Dawn and the various Rosicrucian split-offs.

Like you, I have strong doubts that anything approaching a formal organization existed with the serious and earnest goal of studying magic. Most of these "ascended master" types were in it for the cash, ego-boost and ready access to willing participants in various erotic "rituals."

Well, so the game has some unrealistic elements. This still means that it has quite a lot more realism than other systems. Playing Bob, the bubonic plague victim isn't exactly great.

The premise of AM might have included a certain amount of medieval realism -- and managed quite well in that regard -- yet I seriously doubt that it was meant as a complete history simulator. So what's all the hangup about? Did Mark Splat-Hagen promise True Scientific Realism(tm)?

Well, I wasn't reading any magazines back than, did bragging about The Premise And Its Realization really predate fo..., erm, indie games that much?

Why aren't hermetic mages in the medievel tradition?

Isn't all that hermes trimegistus stuff post-Platonic?  one of the most notable neoplatonic philosophers was Plotinus whose thoughts were effectively mass-christianised by St. Augustine and he was clearly hugely influential on medievel theology.

I imagine the likelyhood of post- and neoplatonic period ideas hanging around until the middle ages would be dependent upon how effective the mages were at keeping books and certain kinds of teaching going, and isn't the point of Ars Mag that actually mages do have some organisational clout and some resources?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhy aren't hermetic mages in the medievel tradition?

Because people back then didn't believe they existed, and the idea of the paradigm is that the world is as they believed it.

Ah... I see.  That's unfortunate because the verisimilitude is there.

Did medievel people believe that wizards lived in huge armed compounds with loads and loads of soldiers?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAh... I see.  That's unfortunate because the verisimilitude is there.

Did medievel people believe that wizards lived in huge armed compounds with loads and loads of soldiers?

Not as far as I know, that said I think the game is brilliant and I have no personal issue with the game world as described, which by and large is internally consistent and interesting.

No, sure and I agree.  I was just curious about your reasons for including hermetic mages.  Not sure I agree with them but it's your game

Dreampark by R. Talsorian, no matter how clever the system, or great the original sourcebooks, who wants the play a character playing a character? It's hard enough to stay in character when your playing a normal character, but playing that character playing another character? It's like trying to do an impression of Sean Connery doing an impression of President Bush.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalNo, sure and I agree.  I was just curious about your reasons for including hermetic mages.  Not sure I agree with them but it's your game

When I ran it I didn't include them, I cut the magi and the whole order of Hermes.

I ran a brief game with the order which was also very good, I think scheduling killed it, and that worked well too.

Back from the convention, and ready to explain myself on this subject.

Basically, Ars Magica is based on what two men thought people in Medieval Europe saw their world. As with the writings of others, it is based on the work of Victorian British authors, who saw the time as a dark period between the splendor that was Rome, and the glorious rebirth of the Renaissance.

In a different sense Ars Magica tells the modern story of the enlightened academic (the Order of Hermes) and the Religious Right (The Church). One trying to better humanity, the other keeping Man oppressed. It presents the ivory tower intellectual paradigm, a seeker after knowledge keeping himself away from the world the better to focus his attentions on what's really important.

Thing is, that's never really fit wizards in real life. As others have pointed out previous to this post, wizards and alchemists such as Paracelsus and Roger Bacon were very much involved in the outside world. Indeed, their involvement is why they engaged in the research and experimentation they did.

Then Tweet and Rhein

Quote from: BagpussDreampark by R. Talsorian, no matter how clever the system, or great the original sourcebooks, who wants the play a character playing a character? It's hard enough to stay in character when your playing a normal character, but playing that character playing another character? It's like trying to do an impression of Sean Connery doing an impression of President Bush.

Your describing this immediately brought to my mind Robin Williams' old stand-up routine where he does an impression of Elmer Fudd doing an impression of Bruce Springsteen.