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Starting out "Artificially Stupid"

Started by HinterWelt, February 19, 2008, 04:09:04 PM

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Ian Absentia

#75
February 21, 2008, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: droogI know, silly. On the other hand, what myths and legends would you prefer I cite? Or to put it another way, which myths do not deal with members of the ruling class?
I don't know that I have a particular preference, but your citation of Paul Bunyan is a step in the direction of the Proletariat.  A lot of the legends of the American frontier deal with decidedly "everyman" characters, or at least great people who arose from clearly humble origins and remained common folk.  John Henry and Pecos Bill for instance, or the Iron John/Hans story from Europe.  Curiously, these stories are seldom as popular as the aristocratic fables.

!i!

James J Skach

#76
February 21, 2008, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI don't know that I have a particular preference, but your citation of Paul Bunyan is a step in the direction of the Proletariat.  A lot of the legends of the American frontier deal with decidedly "everyman" characters, or at least great people who arose from clearly humble origins and remained common folk.  John Henry and Pecos Bill for instance, or the Iron John/Hans story from Europe.  Curiously, these stories are seldom as popular as the aristocratic fables.

!i!
Johnny Appleseed...

Disney had a video called Legends...it was John Henry, Johnny Applseed, Casey Jones...I think there was a fourth but I can't remember.  My kids loved it...watched it in the car all the time. Down with The Man! :)
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

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Ian Absentia

#77
February 21, 2008, 01:04:54 PM
How could I forget Johnny Appleseed?  Not particularly heroic, but a staple of my youth.  And Casey Jones -- was he the railroad fella?  Then there are the legendised historical figures, like Jesse James and Buffalo Bill.

!i!

flyingmice

#78
February 21, 2008, 01:16:58 PM
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHow could I forget Johnny Appleseed?  Not particularly heroic, but a staple of my youth.  And Casey Jones -- was he the railroad fella?  Then there are the legendised historical figures, like Jesse James and Buffalo Bill.

!i!

Johnny Appleseed and Casey Jones were both legendised historical figures, like John Henry and Daniel Boone, and unlike Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
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Ian Absentia

#79
February 21, 2008, 03:16:00 PM
Hrmm. So now I have to ask: Why isn't there a roleplaying game about frontier, tall-tale legendry?

!i!

blakkie

#80
February 21, 2008, 03:22:24 PM
Do canines tending a spiritual grape garden count? ;)

Why not? It's probably because of the group vs. indivual thing.
"Because honestly? I have no idea what you do. None." - Pierce Inverarity

Ian Absentia

#81
February 21, 2008, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: blakkieDo canines tending a spiritual grape garden count? ;)
Sadly, no.
QuoteWhy not? It's probably because of the group vs. indivual thing.
This is probably true.  One of S.John Ross' 5 saintly virtues of successful RPGs, right?  Maybe it'd work given a less traditional RPG format.

!i!

arminius

#82
February 21, 2008, 03:49:40 PM
Quote from: droogWilliam Wallace was a Scottish nobleman (and that's history, not myth).
Not if you've seen the Mel Gibson version.
QuoteThat apparently goes for Le Loi and Liu Bang as well.
Le Loi more than Liu Bang, judging from what I've found. I'm also not as "up" on what it takes to be nobility, as opposed to just owning land, outside of Europe. Anyway, just throwing out some possibilities. I don't really have a stake in this branch of the discussion.

B.T.

#83
February 22, 2008, 06:34:21 AM
I prefer the "Jean Grey" progression of power myself, although I do still like combat to be dangerous (i.e., a stray non-magical arrow can actually still hurt a level 20 fighter).
Quote from: Black Vulmea;530561Y\'know, I\'ve learned something from this thread. Both B.T. and Koltar are idiots, but whereas B.T. possesses a malign intelligence, Koltar is just a drooling fuckwit.

So, that\'s something, I guess.

One Horse Town

#84
February 22, 2008, 06:47:11 AM
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHrmm. So now I have to ask: Why isn't there a roleplaying game about frontier, tall-tale legendry?

!i!

Northern Crown?

droog

#85
February 22, 2008, 07:07:20 AM
Quote from: PseudoephedrineWilliam Tell. Pandora's Box. Burnt Njal's Saga.
Small cultural cheese, though, compared to the ones I mentioned. And Pandora's Box is one part of an immense corpus.

QuoteMore generally, it's important to distinguish myths which deal with members of the ruling class in order to reinforce the ideological structures and conventions of their time, and those which deal with them only incidentally, as a literary convention or trope. The house of Agamemnon is a good example of the latter.
I don't know about that example, but I'm not a classical scholar. Anyway, is that myth or theatre? Myth by definition must be reflecting the hegemonic order. Literature can go a bit further out.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Haffrung

#86
February 22, 2008, 10:03:59 AM
Quote from: WarthurI actually think having a low-powered starting point for characters in games can serve a useful purpose: it gives the players an opportunity to try out the system using fairly simple characters (low power levels are usually synonymous with not having many skills/feats/kewl powerz) in fairly low-key, low-stakes adventures until everyone's comfortable with the system.

It also teaches players to use their brains and imaginations to solve problems, rather than rely on the numbers on their character sheets. Your 2nd level party can't beat the mummy in combat, but they can lure it into a pit and drop burning oil on it.
 

Haffrung

#87
February 22, 2008, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: droogOf course those examples are about birthright. That's our heritage of myth. That's why I say it may be a modern thing.

It's not bourgeois, it's aristocratic. There are no proletarians or bourgeois in Beowulf. Paul Bunyan, on the other hand, is a big old landowner and capitalist boss.

As for King Arthur — again, the eminence of birthright. Not a humble beginning, just a hidden one.

However, reviewing Campbell's notions, I do not think that humble beginnings are in fact necessary to the Hero's Journey.

I agree. It's the anti-elitism of modern pulp culture that has fostered the humble-->hero storytelling model in today's movies, books, and games. The Western heroic heritage isn't all about farmboys revealing their true heroism and winning the day. Not by a long shot. That's just an archetype that sold especially well to 20th century American consumers.

Furthermore, boy with humble beginning saves the day wasn't on the mind of Gygax and Arneson when they invented D&D. It was all about inexperienced soldiers/wizards getting better and better at underworld castle commando raids until they're tough enough to retire from looting and build their own castles. King Arthur had nothing to do with it.
 

Pseudoephedrine

#88
February 22, 2008, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: droogSmall cultural cheese, though, compared to the ones I mentioned. And Pandora's Box is one part of an immense corpus.


I don't know about that example, but I'm not a classical scholar. Anyway, is that myth or theatre? Myth by definition must be reflecting the hegemonic order. Literature can go a bit further out.

Don't cook the books, comrade.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin\'s Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don\'t want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don\'t care about the forests, they\'\'re the fuckin\' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Ian Absentia

#89
February 22, 2008, 11:47:18 AM
Quote from: HaffrungI agree. It's the anti-elitism of modern pulp culture that has fostered the humble-->hero storytelling model in today's movies, books, and games. The Western heroic heritage isn't all about farmboys revealing their true heroism and winning the day. Not by a long shot. That's just an archetype that sold especially well to 20th century American consumers.
Is there anything wrong with that, though?  Every people of every age create their own heroes to do and be what they wish they could.

...And sometimes we play them in RPGs! (I had to try to swing that back on topic)

!i!
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