So, I'm starting an L5R game, but I'm torn between Pendragon-style estate and family management or wandering badasses killing demons and cultists and stopping the machinations of evil monks and corrupt daimyo.
My plan is to set the game just before the period of the Scorpion Clan Coup and Clan Wars, and basically ignore the metaplot, going where the game takes me. (I'm thinking of this as "Ultimate Rokugan," where I basically steal all the good parts and discard all of the goofy metaplot bullshit.)
Anybody have any advice for combining the kind of Pendragon-style play with badasses slaying demons and evil eunuchs? Any kind of hooks or references I can use? In my head, I need to get over this kind of "austere samurai intrigue" being in conflict with asskicking block I seem to have.
I know nothing of L5R but could you do a troupe style setup, like Ars Magica, where you have the PC noble clan leaders and their intrigues but also PC lower level young'uns being sent out on missions and having 'asskicking' adventures along the road? Switch focus between adventures?
Quote from: Future Villain Band;809546So, I'm starting an L5R game, but I'm torn between Pendragon-style estate and family management or wandering badasses killing demons and cultists and stopping the machinations of evil monks and corrupt daimyo.
Why not do both? Start with the wandering band of low samurai, let them save that village from bandits, discover those blood mages in the big town, and thus earn the respect and trust from their daimyo and/or clan champion, who grants them a fiefdom or a related task. Add a timeline to it (I can offer you mine, which treats everything after the 2nd day of Thunder as didn't happen and diverge from there towards a more RPG than CCG oriented setting), so that you have some sort of events happening in the backgrounds which interconnect with the actions of the PCs.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;809546My plan is to set the game just before the period of the Scorpion Clan Coup and Clan Wars, and basically ignore the metaplot, going where the game takes me. (I'm thinking of this as "Ultimate Rokugan," where I basically steal all the good parts and discard all of the goofy metaplot bullshit.)
Emancipation from the metaplot is almost mandatory for a fulfilling L5R game. That setting basically exists only for providing story rewards for the card game player base, but the very things that provides this appeal to the card players also have a significant negative impact on the setting from a roleplaying perspective. I did basically the same, even though the point of diversion, as mentioned above, was the second day of thunder (mostly because I wanted the Mantis as a Great Clan). The resulting game has been running (more off than on lately) for the last three and a half years and has covered 9 intime years, and almost two complete sets of characters.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;809546Anybody have any advice for combining the kind of Pendragon-style play with badasses slaying demons and evil eunuchs? Any kind of hooks or references I can use? In my head, I need to get over this kind of "austere samurai intrigue" being in conflict with asskicking block I seem to have.
The obvious one, of course would playing Crabs with a fief; you spent half the time fighting against nasty things from the Shadowlands, the other half of the time, you get insulted by Cranes and have to deal with politics and trade.
The only other thing I can offer you is a random lifepath character generation system for L5R characters, but I fear it is a bit overpowered for most campaigns, but if you want to have great badass characters (as I did when I wrote the damn thing), it works pretty well.
Quote from: Beagle;809596Why not do both? Start with the wandering band of low samurai, let them save that village from bandits, discover those blood mages in the big town, and thus earn the respect and trust from their daimyo and/or clan champion, who grants them a fiefdom or a related task. Add a timeline to it (I can offer you mine, which treats everything after the 2nd day of Thunder as didn't happen and diverge from there towards a more RPG than CCG oriented setting), so that you have some sort of events happening in the backgrounds which interconnect with the actions of the PCs.
I would love to see a timeline like that -- I may not use it religiously, but I'm positive it would be a good model for me.
QuoteEmancipation from the metaplot is almost mandatory for a fulfilling L5R game. That setting basically exists only for providing story rewards for the card game player base, but the very things that provides this appeal to the card players also have a significant negative impact on the setting from a roleplaying perspective. I did basically the same, even though the point of diversion, as mentioned above, was the second day of thunder (mostly because I wanted the Mantis as a Great Clan). The resulting game has been running (more off than on lately) for the last three and a half years and has covered 9 intime years, and almost two complete sets of characters.
See, that's what I want out of my L5R game. That's pretty inspiring that you've made it work that long.
QuoteThe obvious one, of course would playing Crabs with a fief; you spent half the time fighting against nasty things from the Shadowlands, the other half of the time, you get insulted by Cranes and have to deal with politics and trade.
The only other thing I can offer you is a random lifepath character generation system for L5R characters, but I fear it is a bit overpowered for most campaigns, but if you want to have great badass characters (as I did when I wrote the damn thing), it works pretty well.
I hadn't thought about playing Crabs -- that's a terrific idea. And yes, I'd love to see a lifepath set-up. I've been lamenting the lack of one for a while in L5R...
Thanks, seriously. Those are good ideas.
Quote from: Simlasa;809584I know nothing of L5R but could you do a troupe style setup, like Ars Magica, where you have the PC noble clan leaders and their intrigues but also PC lower level young'uns being sent out on missions and having 'asskicking' adventures along the road? Switch focus between adventures?
It's weird, my group doesn't really go in for troupe-style play. It's one reason why I haven't made Ars Magica work really well with this specific group.
In L5R 4th edition, the Emerald Empire sourcebook has the Daimyo system, which is all about being a L5R take on governance (and I believe it's where the Court Battle system lives, too - but that's more going off of memory rather than having the book here with me).
Quote from: Beagle;809596I did basically the same, even though the point of diversion, as mentioned above, was the second day of thunder (mostly because I wanted the Mantis as a Great Clan).
Yeah, I find Great Clan Mantis very useful to have around from a thematic and plot-hook standpoint. Trouble always was that in many of the interesting eras of the game where the Mantis are strong the Scorpion are weak, and I like the pre-coup Scorpion better. 4th edition tries hard to blur away the eras and accumulated meta-plot, but I feel mixing post-coup Mantis and pre-coup Scorpion is still a bridge too far.
Quote from: Future Villain BandAnybody have any advice for combining the kind of Pendragon-style play with badasses slaying demons and evil eunuchs?
I might suggest drawing some inspiration from the old card game Shadowfist and its associated RPG Feng Shui. They were surprisingly compatible, at least to me, as it helped break up some of the thematic 'stuffiness' L5R can be prone to. I used to shuffle Shadowfist cards, draw a few and use them to randomize suitably kick ass L5R events (with some creative adaptation of course). The evil eunuch angle is already covered for you there as a bonus!
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;809626Yeah, I find Great Clan Mantis very useful to have around from a thematic and plot-hook standpoint. Trouble always was that in many of the interesting eras of the game where the Mantis are strong the Scorpion are weak, and I like the pre-coup Scorpion better. 4th edition tries hard to blur away the eras and accumulated meta-plot, but I feel mixing post-coup Mantis and pre-coup Scorpion is still a bridge too far.
That's why I propagate to mostly ignore the canon and create one of your own. The official canon fixates too much on entirely empty symbolic victories and is sometimes really, really stupid.
In my Rokugan, the Scorpion is certainly not at the peak of its power, but so is pretty much every other Clan (except the Mantis and the Unicorn) due to the odd idea that a country devastated by a massive war like the Clan War and especially the toxic emanations of the massive shadowlands army might have consequences that don't disappear over night. As a result, the Scorpion are weak on a military level, but reasonably strong in court and use their apparent military weakness as a political tool. Being considered as unthreatening is not the worst impression to create. It is also very Scorpion-esque (and not as stupid as the canon tale of the Scorpion clan champion who sacrificed a whole army in a futile attempt to attack the Lion to create exactly that impression of being harmless).
My suggestion is use Minor Clans for the PCs. It makes them underdogs and pawns, but the little brothers out to prove themselves. Lots of reason to be present in Court, but also sent out on suicide missions to gain favors and prestige.
I like L5R canon...as a box of bits to pick and choose from. Just make sure your players are cool with that.
Personally, the best use of canon I have found is locations from the past which echo into the present or foreshadow into the future.
Quote from: Beagle;809637(and not as stupid as the canon tale of the Scorpion clan champion who sacrificed a whole army in a futile attempt to attack the Lion to create exactly that impression of being harmless).
Although that is no doubt stupid on a strategic level, from the perspective of the doomed army it is fittingly 'samurai' in that special, exaggerated, historically inaccurate way that L5R revels in. :D
Just imagine being the general who receives that mass suicide order, fully realizing it's basically a PR ploy... and carrying it out anyway. It's the stuff the game's dramatic side is made of.
Heh, here's a tip for the Pendragon side of the OP's question: It isn't really a successful L5R campaign until someone does something grandly idiotic because they place ritualized clan honor above such petty concerns as self-preservation, long term planning or basic human kindness.
I'm only being half sarcastic.
Ahh, this is right up my alley. Especially the Scorpion Clan Coup and Clan Wars.
(BTW, The story is Scorpion Clan Champion sacrificing a noble in a whisper campaign against the returning Unicorn. Basically the Unicorn were such an unknown quantity it threw Scorpion psy-ops out of whack, they had a much better cavalry and were on the Scorpion border. In order to seem harmless and buy more time to study the Unicorn they played up their anti-outsider bigotry and then folded like a cheap suit on the battlefield. Thoroughly convinced the Scorpion were all talk the Unicorn took the victory and dismissed the Scorpion as a real political threat to their return to Rokugan. Perrrrfect.)
If you want to play daimyo politics, but still have a reason to travel around fighting the forces of corruption and darkness, you want to play Crab family Kuni.
They are the shugenja of the Crab and researchers par excellence of the Shadowlands. They also lost immense lands to the Shadowlands, with some reclaimed. These reclaimed lands are blighted and often face Shadowland incursions (well almost all Crab family lands do).
The Kuni also have Shugenja inquisitors, who have cause to travel about to study cases of corruption within the Empire. These Shugenja, just like Courtiers, often have cause to travel with Samurai Yojimbo. Also the Crab are lax on Rokugani politics and etiquette, so it is much easier to introduce new players and show the contrast between Crab and other Clan manners.
Another clan could be Phoenix, but they are super orthodox, highly Shugenja and Yojimbo focused, and excruciatingly pacifist and mannerly during that time period.
Throw me your current clan considerations and I can possibly work something out.
Quote from: Opaopajr;809840Also the Crab are lax on Rokugani politics and etiquette, so it is much easier to introduce new players and show the contrast between Crab and other Clan manners.
I always liked dragon clan for new players. They hit many of the right stereotypical buttons (martial arts, magic tattoos, smart yet honorable samurai, mountain majesty, investigators, smart Alecs, etc.) while having an "ahead of their time" vibe that eases people unfamiliar with the hyper-bushido society into the action.
If you wanted to cover the bases, what kinds of character types would you use? I figure a bushi school PC, a shugenja school PC, and then...monk? Courtier? I'm pre-genning the characters tonight, and stuck on what to make the third character.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;809901If you wanted to cover the bases, what kinds of character types would you use? I figure a bushi school PC, a shugenja school PC, and then...monk? Courtier? I'm pre-genning the characters tonight, and stuck on what to make the third character.
If it's only 3, I would say go with a courtier. And, more than that, I'd say look at the various courtier schools and think about what you're wanting this third pre-gen courtier to do, besides "be talky". The most traditional (as we think of it) courtier school is the Doji's, as it's based around favors. The Bayushi is sort of its dark mirror, as it's based around blackmail (if looked at uncharitably). The Yasuki and Yoritomo schools are courtier by way of different flavors of bullying, and the Ide is courtier by way of being chummy. The Kitsuki and Agasha are more out there, being more about investigation and lore than necessarily straight up getting what you want in a court setting.
For a pre-gen character, especially for a person who might not be steeped in the lore of L5R, I would probably go with the Ide courtier. Being a unicorn means the player can get away with having an outsider's viewpoint, but being an Ide means that, speaking stereotypically, people will like the courtier. This, of course, makes the job of being a courtier easier.
EDIT: Already covered.
I'd keep it in clan, personally.
If you were to do Crab clan Kuni family, as domain game & corruption fighters, I would focus on the shugenja head family, Kuni, their cultist infiltrator vassal family Meishozo, and their monster catcher vassal family Ugawari.
Here, just visit the L5r Wikia and spec out some ideas:
L5R Wikia, Crab families. (http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Crab_Clan_Families)
Hida are the crass, battle hardened deciding clan head.
Hiruma were homeless during Clan War, and are great scouts.
Kuni are the mysterious magic users and witch hunters.
Kaiu are the wall builders and engineers.
Yasuki are the merchant traders and nominal courtiers.
Too many big family names will really shift the dynamic of your daimyo domain game and get you embroiled in to too much byzantine politics. it gets even worse when you start mixing different clans, as parties go nuts and try to etiquette TPK themselves on their first meeting. Keep things smaller and focused first.
Crab is also a great clan to go with because they have a lot of diversity. Last I checked, they have more schools written than any other clan (checked again, apparently Unicorn leads the way now, though Crab has the second most).
I'd probably go for a 4 player group with something like:
2 from the following: Hida Bushi/Pragmatist, Hiruma Bushi/Scout(depending on timeline/desires), Kuni Witchhunter, Kaiu Engineer
1 Kuni Shugenja
1 Yasuki Merchant
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;809645It isn't really a successful L5R campaign until someone does something grandly idiotic because they place ritualized clan honor above such petty concerns as self-preservation, long term planning or basic human kindness.
So true!
I personally like that about L5R. It helps explain the wildly bad decisions that have shaped their empire and history. All that keeps the Shadowlands at bay is that the Crab are psycho-excellent warriors and if the Empire ever got its shit together and unified, the Shadowlands could be beaten back to nothing...but that won't happen because the ritualized honor system that dominates the culture is so ultimately self-destructive.
Quote from: Spinachcat;810118So true!
I personally like that about L5R. It helps explain the wildly bad decisions that have shaped their empire and history. All that keeps the Shadowlands at bay is that the Crab are psycho-excellent warriors and if the Empire ever got its shit together and unified, the Shadowlands could be beaten back to nothing...but that won't happen because the ritualized honor system that dominates the culture is so ultimately self-destructive.
Actually the shadowlands taint is pretty vicious from 1e. The game has gotten progressively (I'm tempted to say exponentially) absurd over the CCG expansion sets. 4e looks pretty, but I am in no way interested in the selectable canon and school/rules bloat since SCC & Clan War.
My favorite time in canon is actually not long after the Clan Wars. Mantis as a great clan, and after we get the Scorpion back, though weakened.
Everything in the whole Clan War arc felt natural. Everything after that is varying levels of "WTF".
Oh look Hida Yakamo and Mirumoto Hitomi became the Sun and Moon! Oh, now lets change that immediately afterwards "because"!
(Actually, I was ok with the storyline having them become the Sun and Moon, it was INTERESTING, but then throwing it back out almost immediately was just like "why did we do this in the first place if it changes nothing")
Quote from: Emperor Norton;810127My favorite time in canon is actually not long after the Clan Wars. Mantis as a great clan, and after we get the Scorpion back, though weakened.
Good choice, although this is also the period when the Phoenix are decimated. Like,
seriously decimated (I played the card game, the core set immediately after the war had only about 3 Phoenix personalities to everyone else's 12). This can be cool if you like the "rise from the ashes" vibe, but I personally felt the political setting was awkward when the religious conservative clan was sidelined.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;810127Everything in the whole Clan War arc felt natural. Everything after that is varying levels of "WTF".
Agreed, but looking past the excesses of the larger meta-plot I preferred some of the retcons and new ideas that came about at this time. Despite the occasional nonsense like "Scorpion wander the desert", the post Clan Wars era is when the clans really solidified for me. The nezumi were a great addition as far as I was concerned, much more interesting to me than the naga.
What I didn't like were all the superfluous factions that undermined the identity of established clans. The monks were nice and all, but they were kind of intruding on the Dragon clan's thematic turf. Same with the ninja faction that undermined the Scorpion's claim to ninja stuff.
The Scorpion are basically what would happen if you took Garak from Deep Space Nine and made a samurai clan out of him. ;)
JG
I was talking to a friend saying he should start a single clan focused game (he really likes L5R himself).
Me: Any Clan would be fun!
Him: I guess we could fit in one person from another Clan if necessary.
Me: Scorpion would be awesome. All Doji Courtiers should live in fear.
Him: The one non-Scorpion could be a Crane.
Me: Just tell him its an all Crane game.
That would be a cruel cruel joke to play on someone.
EDIT:
More Options.
An all Scorpion game where each player believes its an all Crane game.
An all Crane game where you tell everyone at the beginning that one person is a Scorpion traitor, but then don't actually have a Scorpion Traitor.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;809901If you wanted to cover the bases, what kinds of character types would you use? I figure a bushi school PC, a shugenja school PC, and then...monk? Courtier? I'm pre-genning the characters tonight, and stuck on what to make the third character.
If your players aren't familiar with the setting, I would stick to a single clan for all PCs; that makes it simpler. I would also not necessarily recommend a shugenja character, because they are complicated and not strictly necessary for the typical pseudo-Japanese Samurai game, but make the game significantly more complex. I would recommend to stick to a "one courtier, two bodyguards" structure (which also establishes a basic relationship between the characters) and establishes a decent plot hook for a first adventure ("Courtier-san, please deliver this letter/present/hostage/barely-hidden threat to daimyo Whatshisname in Strangeanddangerous City of the Rival Clan. Take these soldiers with you to; they will protect you.")
I've been milling about an all Crane game, as their natural competitiveness in all things ("achieve excellence in all things.") would be an excruciating challenge. Sure you could insinuate Kolat incursion, or Lion threats. But just plenty of Cranes in one spot should be about as vicious as an all-girl school. The flower arranging wars should be legendary.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;810165An all Scorpion game where each player believes its an all Crane game.
I almost pee'd myself in laughter. That would be so hysterically awesome.
But that's probably because my L5R is often the bastard son of Bushido plus Paranoia.
Quote from: Spinachcat;810295I almost pee'd myself in laughter. That would be so hysterically awesome.
But that's probably because my L5R is often the bastard son of Bushido plus Paranoia.
Its a test by Scorpion Sensei, each of the students has the goal of choosing one of their companions and framing them as a spy, without realizing they are all technically spies.
I only wanted to chime in to say that, despite my complete lack of interest (and scant knowledge) of L5R, I find this thread to be awesome, interesting and useful. You've actually made me interested in checking out the game.
First, thank you to Beagle for the great play aids. And thanks to everybody for the advice.
Second, here's where I'm at -- I was lucky enough to have a buddy give me nearly every book out there for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions. I think I'm missing only two or three, and I bought those in .pdf. One of those is the boxed set City of Lies, which people have told me is one of the best sandbox settings ever.
So right now, I'm thinking the PCs will be Crane relatives of the Magistrate whose death is one of the key mysteries in City of Lies. They come to the City for two reasons:
1) To avenge their dead kinsman in preparation for their own ascent into the halls of power.
2) To allow one of their number to be set up and blackmailed by the Scorpion. The whole idea is for this PC to allow himself to be co-opted by the Scorpion, only for the Crane clan to use him as a double agent. Since I'm building up to both the extermination of the Hare clan (a plot which gets its start in the City of Lies) and the Scorpion Clan Coup, pitting the Crane against Scorpion like this works pretty well for me.
3) I figure the random element will be a fiancee or suitor from the Crab clan. One of the two Crane PCs has a suitor from the Crab clan, and he tags along. All three of my main players will be familiar with Rokugan, but I have a rotating band of players who can only show up once in a while, so a Crab PC would make a suitable character for those guys.
Thoughts? Anyone have any experience with City of Lies? Advice?
Oh how I love City of Lies... It's basically a massive smuggling node & pleasure district for geisha, gambling, & opium dens. Any crane openly traveling there should write off their full agency on future ambitions; you're leaving with strings attached.
First, read 1e Way of the Crane & Way of the Scorpion to get a sense of their world view. They are way more similar than they care for.
Throw in a lot of the strict protocol Scorpion have with their peasants, to show a nod to Rokugani orthodoxy. Then slather them with births and wedding invitations (that are continuously happening, even for peasants) as one of the Scorpion's greatest moments is celebrating these things. Play up their felicity and courtesy at these times, the absolutely disarming friendliness of Scorpions at play.
Also play with Scorpion counter-intel, even expecting to take a few 'losses' and 'being duped'. Having a Scorpion be open, friendly, and cooperative (and occasionally incompetent) will be unnerving.
However, remember they are the Empire's underhand, discreet fixers of disgraceful things. Know why your magistrate died and work backwards. It would not be uncommon for a Crane daimyo to circuitously lament to a friend Scorpion about a magistrate who fell into vice (love, gaming, drink, etc.) and thus needs to honorably succumb to Scorpion villainy. You know, keeping up appearances.
The whole thing might be a pro forma investigation and recon mission. Possibly all of it kept secret from the players by the Crane daimyo, too. These clans can be fucked up like that. "Go do this, all I care is that you went and saved us face; screw up this basic task and we'll know where to place you."
Oh, laden them with lots of gifts for their journey, several as unassigned art & treasure, and let the Crane squirm on how to appropriately gift which host where. Leave a few white elephant gifts in there as well. Gifting appropriately is one of the Crane's greatest weapons.
City of Lies is awesome indeed. A murder mystery is also a good backstory to get the characters involved in all kinds of trouble. I also think that the Crane/Crab combo offers a lot of potential tension and therefore roleplaying opportunity.
It is not the greatest adventure, but
Night of a Thousand Screams is set in Ryoko Owari, includes troubled Crane representatives, and most importantly
Spoiler
an oni for your Crab to slay.
The latter might be a nice diversion from loads and loads of intrigue and gives that character, who might otherwise be a bit out of place something to shine.
The Living Legend of the Five Rings campaign, Heroes of Rokugan, has released the past two campaign module sets as free downloads. While many are specific to the campaign setting, many of the modules are easy to use and apply to any campaign setting.
My personal favorite, and one which match's your Crab centric game, has the PCs running around the Miya province killing cultists.
After binging this past weekend on nothing but samurai movies (mostly, there was that dreadful "Gallowalkers," crap with Wesley Snipes in the mix as well), I am sooooo hot for anything L5R right now.
Along with Deadlands and Fading Suns, I love the setting of the Emerald Empire and just like reading stuff about it / in it from the tons of (1st edition ) books that I've gotten over time.
I certainly look forward to hearing more about your game, FVB.