Quote from: RabidWookie on February 19, 2023, 01:56:02 AM
Thank you for the detailed responses. Are there any Stars Without Number supplements that you think aren't worth buying for use with the Revised Edition?

I have all the SWN supplements, except for Polychrome (which is probably superseded by the "Cities Without Number" kickstarter https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sinenomineinc/cities-without-number?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=cities%20without%20number, which is ongoing). I don't have much interest in cyberpunk, so am on the fence for it.

All of the SWN original edition supplements are good, and with some conversion (descending AC->ascending AC, narrow skills->broad skills, etc.) are easily used in SWNRE. Venka has excellently summarized CotBS, and I also highly recommend it. I have nascent work on using it to replicate the Fading Suns character types, if that gives you an idea of how flexible it is.

Quote from: RabidWookie on February 19, 2023, 01:56:02 AM

Thank you for the detailed responses. Are there any Stars Without Number supplements that you think aren't worth buying for use with the Revised Edition?

I've got all the 1e and Revised supplements, and have used them all in my Revised campaigns.

Skyward Steel, the naval campaign supplement has been rendered largely obsolete because its ship combat rules were an expanded set of rules for 1e. The Revised Edition ship combat rules are generally better.*  As well, the naval career backgrounds are also obsolete, since the character backgrounds in Revised Edition are much broader. Good stuff for character fluff, but nothing really worthwhile.  Skyward Steel does have stats for ships, weapons, and space stations that are quite useful... but if you don't get it, and you want space stations, they're basically not worth statting up anyways.

I've used Darkness Visible less than I would have liked, but it's still got some fun stuff. Polychrome is about to become pretty obsolete with the advent of Cities Without Number, and some of its cybernetics made it into the Revised rules mainbook. So you can probably ditch Polychrome.

About 90% of any of the 1e supplements is utterly useful material and helpful for a Revised game. It's GM tools and tables/advice, and useful in any game system. I use SWN tables to help make stuff in all my one-off adventures in Savage Worlds, Cepheus Deluxe, and Mecha Hack. Good times.

The conversion from 1e to Revised goes something along the following lines:

New AC = 20 - old AC.

Saving Throws: Tech saves are usually Mental saves, Luck saves you can make 16 - level, if you use them.

Skills: the only place where the new skills and old skills don't interface as well as I would like is when you use the Trading Rules in Suns of Gold. It's not that they don't work, they do. It's just that it was a bit harder to get a PC good at trading in the older rules than it is in the Revised rules. Unless you're running an actual trading campaign, use the basic interstellar trade rules in the Revised rules. Much simpler, and won't break the campaign when the PCs get a sudden windfall.

The only thing that takes a little bit of finesse is adding Shock values to melee combatants (creatures). That's not too hard, especially since there are excellent guidelines for doing this in the free version of Worlds Without Number, and a whole bunch of example monsters in a handy table with their Shock values.

Quote from: RabidWookie on February 18, 2023, 10:15:26 PM
Can anyone recommend the best options for buying print copies of the Stars Without Number supplements?

Also, is the Codex of the Black Sun worth buying for someone that has the offset print Revised edition core book? It looks like the Revised edition has magic rules included.

Codex of the Black Sun is great, if you want to add some space magic elements: spells, magic items (some are pretty fun as one-of-a-kind items in any SWN game), and the like.

Starvation Cheap is great for any campaign where the PCs are going to be doing military things: battles, hunting armoured vehicles, and surviving artillery barrages. Lots of new gear and vehicles there too. Also campaign advice for running wars, which is neat.

Suns of Gold for merchant campaigns, and has rules for making up new trade goods. It also has a solid heist/adventure generator, where the assumption is that the PCs will have to do this thing to get in good with the local authority/extricate themselves from the clutches of said authority/fix what has gone wrong with the trade deal. I mentioned before that there are some interface hiccups with Suns of Gold's trading rules with the skill list in Revised. It's not horrible, but take care that the PC trade-pointman is not going to be too powerful. Also, the rules are generally intended for high-stakes mercantile campaigns. There are lots of system-less rules in there to make that rewarding and very textured.

Darkness Visible has cool stuff for agencies and enemies, as well as solid ideas about the sorts of maltech cults the PC agents would face, and what sort of assets they would have. The 1d8 roll on the table for determining the nascent Unbraked AI's madness is great. Lots of advice for running espionage sandbox campaigns by giving the PCs control over their agency (yes, giving them agency, literally).

Skyward Steel and Polychrome are probably the two books you can miss if you had to. Skyward Steel's been rendered largely obsolete, though it has some new weapons, and ship/station hulls (some made it into Revised). Polychrome's most interesting cybernetics made it into Revised, and now Cities Without Number is coming out, so...

Engines of Babylon has good vehicle rules, and more weapons to murderize PCs with. It's also got some extra items, and some details on maltech devices and technologies. If you want low-tech TL3/early TL4 ship action, it has rules for that too.

Relics of the Lost and Dead Names are imminently useful, all. the. time. Get them. Relics has lots of gear for PCs, including a ton of stims (Potions!). Dead Names has more interesting items, and rules for designing aliens, and their ancient ruins. I use it in conjunction with the ruin node map design system in Worlds Without Number, all. the. time.

Enjoy!

Quote from: Heavy Josh on February 19, 2023, 01:16:10 PMSkyward Steel and Polychrome are probably the two books you can miss if you had to. Skyward Steel's been rendered largely obsolete, though it has some new weapons, and ship/station hulls (some made it into Revised). Polychrome's most interesting cybernetics made it into Revised, and now Cities Without Number is coming out, so...

Excellent breakdown, but the one thing I've seen in Skyward Steel which I didn't see in SWNRE is determining a world's navy from the world's economics. If one wants to conduct a subsector naval campaign those rules are useful.

Quote from: rhialto on February 20, 2023, 06:37:44 AM

Excellent breakdown, but the one thing I've seen in Skyward Steel which I didn't see in SWNRE is determining a world's navy from the world's economics. If one wants to conduct a subsector naval campaign those rules are useful.

Oh crap I totally forgot about the fleet points in Skyward Steel. Definitely useful for consistency in determining fleet sizes across a setting!

Quote from: Venka on February 19, 2023, 02:10:38 AM
I haven't dug into any of the others as deeply as codex, so I can't recommend for or against them.
I will say that the others I've looked through are much more about building the world, and huge sections of them are system neutral. If you already have a section of a universe that you know a lot about, or you have your favorite way to build sandboxes, I don't think they'll be as important. Codex has a bunch of player-facing rules and a bunch of stuff that is very important to whatever world you are building (assuming you want arcane stuff).

When you are referring to the fact that Codex has more class stuff for these classes than the core rulebook, are you speaking of the Revised core rulebook or the original 1e? Also, I am not at all looking to add arcane traditional magic to my sci-fi setting but I would be up for adding some of this if it is psionics based and/or some of it is actually techno-magic, such as via nanobots and such.  Is a good deal of the magic in Codex actually arcane based, as in powered by the mystical arts? I could possibly even allow Sunblades if their 'magic' is from a an energy field source ala The Force from Star Wars or something similar.

Quote from: Batjon on February 22, 2023, 11:24:21 AM
When you are referring to the fact that Codex has more class stuff for these classes than the core rulebook, are you speaking of the Revised core rulebook or the original 1e? Also, I am not at all looking to add arcane traditional magic to my sci-fi setting but I would be up for adding some of this if it is psionics based and/or some of it is actually techno-magic, such as via nanobots and such.  Is a good deal of the magic in Codex actually arcane based, as in powered by the mystical arts? I could possibly even allow Sunblades if their 'magic' is from a an energy field source ala The Force from Star Wars or something similar.

I'm sorry, but "arcane based" makes no sense. "Arcane magic" in D&D relies on a field of "mana" or "dweomer" or whatever you want to call it, the proof is that anti-magic fields and dead magic zones are a thing. The Jedi discipline is no more a mystical art than Aang's Air Monastic discipline. In fact, the Jedi are just Zen Buddhists in space. Do you want to have magician classes? Then you just need a fig leaf like "they use [psychic abilities|super-advanced nanobots] to manipulate [the Zero-point Energy field|the background Metric of the Universe|Hyperspace] and cause miraculous effects which wouldn't be possible through simple technological manipulation of EM fields" and you're in business. If you prefer to have a strict "you need a phaser to cast death rays about" policy, then forbid those archetypes.

I meant I am trying to avoid Harry Potter in space.

My question is really asking what is the explained source of the magical abilities in the sourcebook?

Quote from: Batjon on February 22, 2023, 12:08:48 PM
I meant I am trying to avoid Harry Potter in space.

My question is really asking what is the explained source of the magical abilities in the sourcebook?

There isn't; there is material in the book to discuss exactly how sorcery relates to the setting. This means that the source of magical abilites can vary from campaign to campaign, in service of the genre (Sword and Planet like Barsoom, Space Fantasy like Star Wars, Magical Cyberpunk like Shadowrun, or whatever else you like).

Quote from: Batjon on February 22, 2023, 11:24:21 AM
When you are referring to the fact that Codex has more class stuff for these classes than the core rulebook, are you speaking of the Revised core rulebook or the original 1e?

I'm referring to the Revised Deluxe edition.  This core rulebook has a template for Arcanist (implied to take spells from other OSR or D&D products), the codex has the same template along with a full spell list, and some cautions about importing spells willy-nilly (for instance, it calls out fireball explicitly as a bad idea for SWN games).
The core rulebook also has a template for Magister, implied to be like a 3.X Sorcerer- a low number of spells known, but they are permanently known, not memorized from a spellbook, with a generous number of castings per day.  The codex makes it clear that this is in fact just a template, and that individual Magister classes should be created.  The codex offers the Rectifier, a transhumanist mage that reshapes people, which is overall a confusing class with a couple outstanding spells.  It offers the Pacter, the primary interfacer of the shadows, which are either evidence of a shadow realm or simply constructs of metadimensional energy (and are extremely well detailed)- so he's the summoner, and seems like a compelling choice in a game that plays the shadow stuff as described.  It offers the War Mage, an example of namespace-squatting if I've ever seen one- this war mage is great, he should just be like sphere of correspondence wizard or whatever.  His spell list is a bunch of things that support fire teams or squads.  He works well, but his kit is defined by his game mechanics more than lore, as in the other magisters. 

Of these, the Pacter drops in anywhere with the shadows (and IMO is a great reason to put the shadows in your game), and the War Mage probably needs a bit of lore added when you add him in.  I don't really see the merit in the Rectifier, but your mileage may vary.  Nothing in the book implies you need to shove everything into your game, after all.

Finally, we have the Adept superclass, which hasn't changed much since the core rulebook.  The original rulebook just had one Adept class, meant both as a playable class and also as an example of how to get in a specific class that has abilities, especially if you are importing from other fiction or OSR.  This adds more, some combat, some not.

QuoteAlso, I am not at all looking to add arcane traditional magic to my sci-fi setting but I would be up for adding some of this if it is psionics based and/or some of it is actually techno-magic, such as via nanobots and such.

The book opens with an explanation of how magic works- in short, the Arcanist and all Magister classes are meant to be a specific type of psionics.  The spells are definitely not what you would expect from a traditional fantasy setting, not at all.
You may still find it too close to regular magic for your liking, but the actual reasoning he presents is pretty solid, and isn't just some quick handjob to get you to be ok with Elminster In Space (and that is not what these classes are).

That being said, if you wanted them to be primarily cast with nanites or some other thing like that, the Rectifier and War Mage will be your go-to things, and anything else will take some reassigning of a few things, I believe.

QuoteIs a good deal of the magic in Codex actually arcane based, as in powered by the mystical arts?

Nope.  The Adepts seem to be the only thing that isn't definitely psionics with a special interface (the core idea is that a SANIS interface was developed pre-Scream, as an alternate way for a psychic to generate reliable and specific effects, and this is how the Arcanists and various Magister sub-classes come to be).  I think the Adept is meant to be more open-ended, in case you wanted to import Jedi without a condom.

I'll quote a couple Arcanist spells here.

Quote
Blindside Skip - Level 2
A surge of metadimensional energy briefly numbs a single visible target to the caster's activities. For the duration of the spell, activities the caster takes are not noticed or remembered by the target, who will rationalize their observation of any consequences of those actions. If the caster takes some violent or threatening action directed toward the target or something the target cares about deeply, the skip is automatically negated in time for the target to react normally or defend itself appropriately. The spell lasts for one round per two levels of the caster, rounded up, and the victim gets a Mental saving throw to resist the spell.

This is much more like a psionic ignore-me power than it like invisibility (there is another spell that bends light, but it does so over an area, with realistic disadvantages).

Here's another:

Quote
Clairvoyance Window Probe  - Level 4
The caster focuses on a location within ten meters per character level and creates a spatial window that allows a view into the desired locale. The caster can tilt and turn the window to view the target site as if present, and can hear any sounds that are present. One inanimate object no more than one kilo in weight and not composed of multiple parts can be dropped through the window into the target location, though such an act disrupts it and ends the spell. Full translation of the inserted object requires one round, during which the object gradually and visibly coalesces at the destination. The window is invisible to conventional senses or sensors from the other side, though anyone with Teleport-0 or Metapsion-1 skill can see it clearly. The window lasts for one scene. Substances or fields that prevent teleportation also block the window.

You can see how this plugs in to the already-existing psychic world, while also allowing you to both scry and drop a grenade behind the enemy's mainframe or whatever.

QuoteI could possibly even allow Sunblades if their 'magic' is from a an energy field source ala The Force from Star Wars or something similar.

In the case of the Sunblade, only the mechanics are defined- you are supposed to finish the class as GM.  So say you decide that your sunblades wield a mystic blue energy that they can make solid enough to fire arrows with.  The stats for those arrows are there, but nothing in the sunblade thing restricts how it works- it can be literally  from God, from a mystic energy field like the force or other Buddhist-derived essence, an ancient nanite field, or just the same metadimensional energy.  This is for you, the GM to decide, and nothing in that section implies that players get to go pick the thing and crash your lore with it or anything either.

Honestly I think the sunblade is done really well, but you need to define what the orders are that qualify as sunblades.  For instance, the table gives stats for sacred weapons, but the default rules are that every sunblade of an order has a specific type of sacred weapons- the blue energy bow above would never be a throwing star, but you could create a sunblade order that had that.

Basically if you're willing to use the psychic rules, something ranging from "much" to "all" in codex will work for you.