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If you were to merge SWN's primary assumptions with 5e's mechanics for broader appeal, what choices would you make?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;822457If you were to merge SWN's primary assumptions with 5e's mechanics for broader appeal, what choices would you make?

Do you mean broader appeal as in "on the market", like you're going to sell it?

Or do you mean broader as in "among your local players"?

If it's the latter, then you need to first find out what your local players like about 5E.

Do they like Advantage/Disadvantage? (That could be used as is)
Do they like the "Lower Attack Bonus - More Hit Points" paradigm?
The idea of tool proficiencies?
The more generous stat mods as in "18 = +4 not +3"?
Do they want backgrounds? (these are already there though)
Do they want feats?

What do they like about it?

Yeah...an interesting question but mostly because I'm not sure how the two would relate, as they are both "lite" systems that handle their genres well as-is.

Quote from: Enlightened;822468Do you mean broader appeal as in "on the market", like you're going to sell it?

Or do you mean broader as in "among your local players"?

If it's the latter, then you need to first find out what your local players like about 5E.

No, not to sell, but not just local players either. Just maximum appeal in as many contexts as possible (kind of the way 5e was playtested).

What would you do?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;822475What would you do?

Me personally? The only thing I would take is the idea of Advantage/Disadvantage. (For skill rolls, roll 3d6 and take the best two)

Backgrounds are cool, but they're already there.

There is nothing else about 5E that I personally would take. But if there were aspects of 5E that my players were specifically asking for or clearly seemed to want, I would have no problem porting them over.

It all comes down to what specifically the people locally are seeming to want.

What do you see your local players as wanting?

I would build out a set of classes that combined aspects of what SWN is doing and DnD is doing. I would also build out appropriate races I wanted in my post-scream setting.

I would use DnD HD, bounded accuracy, saves, injury. I would probably use SWN psionics with a class for them. Maybe a "sorcerer" limited powers class.

I would add any skills for sci-fi to the existing 5e set, using the 5e proficiency system.

I like how 5e plays. I love how SWN does everything else. To be fair, I have not played SWN yet, but I have played many hours of older editions of D&D to have some idea. DnD5e tickles my fancy where older editions didn't, so I would lean heavily in that direction for the core mechanics.

Sorry to have let this thread slip without properly expanding on it.

I find the factors that most hampered my attempts to promote SWN in my circles were its lack of class features, extremely flat math, and descending AC. Merging it with 5e has the potential to fix these issues. It's one of many options I'm considering for an eventual sci fi campaign.

I like the core three classes of SWN. They are very elegant. If I needed to add features to them I would imagine leaning on 5e's archetype approach.

I was poking at porting classes over to 5e, warriors are easy, psions aren't particularly difficult. That said, I am completely lost as a good selection of archetypes for experts. That said, three archetypes isn't going to cover it, so there's a lot of work to be done.

Part of what I was considering was splitting archetypes off of classes and you gain the features based on a class specific progression. But then you're writing three archetypes for each one you do. But it would allow for some real flexibility in character concepts while still setting up roles.

For the most part the classes themselves are real easy, you can lean on fighter for warrior, break out some of the thief specific things from rogue and replace them with general competence, and then take the spell caster of your choice and replace their casting with spell points for psion.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;828980I find the factors that most hampered my attempts to promote SWN in my circles were its lack of class features, extremely flat math, and descending AC. Merging it with 5e has the potential to fix these issues. It's one of many options I'm considering for an eventual sci fi campaign.

I like the core three classes of SWN. They are very elegant. If I needed to add features to them I would imagine leaning on 5e's archetype approach.

Descending to Ascending AC is trivial, since it only changes how you present the same equation - actual probabilities are left unchanged.

I'm not sure what you mean by "class features". Each class already has a class-specific ability. If you mean a larger number of class-specific special abilities that other classes are barred from - well, that sort of goes against not only SWN's design ideas, but sci-fi RPG assumptions as well.

In fantasy, it's okay to say that "wizards can't wear armour because magic energy is blocked by metal or whatever". But sci-fi is supposed to be rational: there's no magic involved in piloting a spaceship, you just need to pull levers and push buttons - and anyone can do that. Sure, some people will be much better than others, but ANYONE can, at the very least, point a gun roughly in the enemy's direction and pull the trigger, pull on the control column, or write a program (heck, even I remember some BASIC). If you want to make specific characters feel more exclusive, I guess you could institute a houserule where certain technological skills (computers, postech, pretech, bunch of others) can only be rolled if you have at least a rank of 0 - so completely untrained characters can't even try it. That would achieve a similar effect.

Flat math - not sure what you mean. Is it that modifiers that you add up or subtract stay at low values? Because if so, you pretty much MUST have that as long as you retain the 2d6 skill system. 2d6 rolls produce a bell distribution curve, which in turn means that bonuses and maluses of more than just a few points will become VERY deterministic; in other words, if you make it easier to rack up bonuses of +4 or more on a roll, you will hardly ever fail. For example, suppose you make it relatively easy to have a +3 attribute modifier, and your relevant skill level is 2 - that's a +5 bonus on your roll. You will have a 97.23% chance of succeeding at a "standard" difficulty 8 task. Difficulty 13 - "Sprinting up a greased inclined tightrope on your hands. Fixing a computer with a native cheese spread. Demolishing a concrete building with your hands. Turning a corroded alien bath attachment into a weapon." becomes possible 72.24% of the time. And that's not even the highest attribute modifier or training level you can get.

QuoteThat said, I am completely lost as a good selection of archetypes for experts.

Yeah, that one's rough. You can sort of take elements from the D&D rogue and make an infiltrator archetype, elements from the bard to make a leader-ish archetype, chop up and stitch together some feats to make a medic (but careful not to step on the psion's toes), steal ideas from D20 Modern/future to flesh out pilots and techies and such. The key is that the archetypes don't need to be very substantial, just a layer of three or four features on top of the base expert, whatever that is.

Quote from: MrHurst;828983... and then take the spell caster of your choice and replace their casting with spell points for psion.

I'm kind of tempted to leave the psion mostly as-is except for the obvious upgrades to 5e standards and perhaps some extra non-psionic stuff to make up for the limited power selection.

Quote from: Premier;828986I'm not sure what you mean by "class features". Each class already has a class-specific ability. If you mean a larger number of class-specific special abilities that other classes are barred from - well, that sort of goes against not only SWN's design ideas, but sci-fi RPG assumptions as well.

Be that as it may, 5e (and 4th) hit the nail on the head with its market research: Most players like leveling up, and most players want a new whizz-bang feature at each level. WotC's conclusions match my own experience. You might not like it, and I might not like it, but there is no denying my SWN pitches failed on those grounds.

Quote from: Premier;828986Flat math - not sure what you mean. Is it that modifiers that you add up or subtract stay at low values?

Sadly yes. It's idiotic in a Spinal Tap "This goes to eleven" way, but my local player base likes to see big and rising numbers. 5e's flatter math made them wary, but not as much as SWN's, and compensated for that by having lots of class features and running faster.

SWN PCs are aimed toward old-school fragility and very much mere-mortalness. If you wanted to give them more mechanical muscle, it wouldn't be hard to just slap on a 5e-esque ability progression. I've even toyed with it for my Tudor England game that I'll be working on later this year.

I'd do it like this.

Level 1: Pick a class archetype. Get the intro ability of that archetype.
Level 2: Pick a class perk which anyone of that class can choose.
Level 3: Get a universal class ability that everone of this class gets.
Level 4: Pick one of the remaining three special abilities of your archetype or add a new archetype and their intro ability.
Level 5: Pick another class perk.
Level 6: Get a universal class ability.
Level 7: Archetype pick...

Rinse and repeat. Assuming you take it through level 12 or so, you'd need 4 universal class abilities, about 12 small class perks to have a decent pool to pick from, and X number of archetypes, each with an intro ability they all get and about 3 additional abilities they can pick in any order.

It's not exactly an answer to the OP, but I'm currently running a campaign based on Other Dust (post apocalyptic SWN) with 5e D&D rules with very little house rules*. Me and my player are loving it so far. I know that does not say a lot about mixing and matching the systems, but at least it's a little sign that D&D 5& could support the same style of play of Sine Nomine System (which I love, but it's a little too crunch lite for my player tastes).

(*By the way, I thank BedrockBrendan for posting a 5th edition spell-less renger class in this forum. It's one of the few aforementioned house rules).

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;822457If you were to merge SWN's primary assumptions with 5e's mechanics for broader appeal, what choices would you make?

I'd ditch them both and play Traveller instead.

Quote from: jeff37923;829039I'd ditch them both and play Traveller instead.

Tried that too (Mongoose), before SWN in fact. I have a faint but defining memory of people getting seriously hung up on all all those nitty gritty interconnected steps during chargen, followed by groans at the lack of mechanical character progression and no kool powarz.

QuoteIf you wanted to give them more mechanical muscle, it wouldn't be hard to just slap on a 5e-esque ability progression.

That would certainly be less labor intensive. Hmm...

By the way, sorry to prod, but in the most flattering sense possible I just want to remind you there are folks who'd love to see that 2nd edition with all the errata we've discussed. ;)

I'd keep SWN grittiness, personally. I would add a few 5e things, but mostly for ease of GM adjudication. Mainly: Passive checks, Adv/Disadv, Obscurement/Lighting, Cover, Exhaustion, Suffocation, Mounts, etc.

As for player widgets... well, 5e gives a solid template on how to create new alien races (+2 here, +1 there, a bennie, a boon, a skill/tool, done). I'd keep SWN re-roll HD to determine next lvl HP, as 5e's half HD +1 is obviously the better choice on average and really craps on SWN fragility. However, Short/Long Rests might actually work for SWN because of the assumed greater medical advances.

Skip most of the new class ideas, but definitely embrace backgrounds. That's another easy template. In fact, they give advice on the framework on Customizing Backgrounds within that chapter.

I'm sort of not sold on 5e's XP rate, and you don't need to speed along to Class Archetype level (3rd) all that soon before you hashed out other options, so take it very slow. As to classes SWN is Fighter, Rogue, M-User base, 5e has a pretty easy Archetype breakdown for Fighter & Rogue, and Psion could just specialize on certain Sci/Devs — though that may require more psionic list sorting...

Champion Fighter is dirt easy. Eldritch Knight is also dirt easy (splash some Psion). Battle Master is a bit hard as blaster combat doesn't lend itself too well to flashy maneuvers (the movie Equilibrium withstanding)...

edit: Oh! No Skilled class Sneak Attack! Keep 'em tied to their tech casting and skills. Thieves' Cant translates to "elite speak," Expertise relates to Skilled natural progression, Cunning Action is solid all-around...

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;829003Be that as it may, 5e (and 4th) hit the nail on the head with its market research: Most players like leveling up, and most players want a new whizz-bang feature at each level. WotC's conclusions match my own experience. You might not like it, and I might not like it, but there is no denying my SWN pitches failed on those grounds.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;829006Sadly yes. It's idiotic in a Spinal Tap "This goes to eleven" way, but my local player base likes to see big and rising numbers. 5e's flatter math made them wary, but not as much as SWN's, and compensated for that by having lots of class features and running faster.

Fire your players and get better ones. :) Or retrain them by grinding them down with excruciatingly slow XP progression.

Or nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. :p

Quote from: Opaopajr;829069Fire your players and get better ones.

If I tried any sort of tabletop ultimatum on my friends they'd just "fire" me from DMing and "hire" me back for World of Warcraft raids or something like that. :p RPGs with busy adults have to be a two-way street.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;829096If I tried any sort of tabletop ultimatum on my friends they'd just "fire" me from DMing and "hire" me back for World of Warcraft raids or something like that. :p RPGs with busy adults have to be a two-way street.

It does sound like you've got a gripes with them though... in regards to gaming preferences. Sometimes that's OK... sometimes it festers into wider resentment.

Okay, just for the fun of it, here's an example of a buffed-up 5e-esque Warrior class that I threw together in 20 minutes. HD, attack bonuses, and skills all remain the same, but special ability progressions now work like this:

Level 1: Gain Veteran's Luck, if this is your initial class- multiclassers don't get this. Also pick an archetype and gain its basic ability.
Level 2: Choose a perk.
Level 3: You're Hard to Kill; automatically stabilize if not blown to pieces
Level 4: Gain an archetype ability or pick a new archetype.
Level 5: Choose a perk.
Level 6: You're a Lucky Shot; once per fight, skip the hit roll and take an automatic 20.
Level 7: Gain an archetype ability or pick a new archetype.
Level 8: Choose a perk.
Level 9: You're Briefly Invincible. Once per day, for one round, every enemy attack against you misses.
Level 10: Gain an archetype ability or pick a new archetype.
Level 11: Choose a perk.
Level 12: You're a Reaper: When you attack, you can do so twice.
Level 13+: Rinse and repeat, but no new class abilities like those gained at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12.

Perks
Controlled Paranoia: You are never surprised by an ambush, even waking from a sound sleep just before it strikes.
Hard-Bitten: When you roll hit points for a level, count any results of 1 or 2 as 3.
Friends in Barracks: Gain +1 to social skill checks with all military or martial NPCs. Once per session, the PC can win an automatic friendly reaction from such an NPC unless it's entirely inappropriate.
Second Skin: You are always perfectly comfortable in armor, and can even sleep in it without hindrance. Armor counts as 1 fewer point of encumbrance, to a minimum of 0.
Iron Constitution: On your first failed Physical Effect save of the day, automatically succeed instead.
Last Man Standing: Keep functioning normally for one round after being reduced to 0 hit points, provided you haven't been blown to bits or otherwise dismembered.
Guardian Arm: Once per fight, take a weapon hit in place of a comrade within 10 meters. You automatically move in front of them or otherwise shield them from the attack.
Shellcracker: You know how to target weak spots, and your attacks are able to affect even enemies in powered armor or assault suits, regardless of the weapon's tech level or the use of unarmed combat. Against vehicles and other hardened targets, your normal weapons count as gunnery weapons, with damage halved and rounded down before application. Gunnery weapons against vehicles roll twice and take the better damage.
Shrug It Off: After a fight, regain 1 hit point per level. You can only shrug off damage inflicted during that fight, and you can't shrug off environmental or other sources of damage.

Archetypes:

Blademaster: You wield primitive weapons with elan, either as a barbarian introduced to modern society or as a duelist devoted to more traditional means of combat. Primitive low-tech weapons in your hands can harm even foes in powered armor. Roll twice for damage with primitive weapons and take the better result.

Lightning draw: All your primitive weapons always count as Readied, even if treated as stowed. When combat starts, you can roll Initiative twice and take the better result.

Gun Parry: All enemies within melee range must roll any ranged attacks twice and take the worst hit roll, as you deflect their weapon barrels and move too close to track.

Kill Shot: If you have two full rounds to prepare a ranged shot at a target that isn't aware of your presence, your weapon counts as a sniper rifle; on a hit, they must make a saving throw versus Physical Effect at a penalty equal to your Combat/Primitive skill or die instantly. If they survive, they take maximum damage.

Precision Blow: When using primitive weapons, an enemy target's armor class can never be better than 5, barring superhuman dexterity on their part.

Gunner: You cherish your rifle or plasma caster. You can reload a ranged weapon automatically as a free action. With a ranged weapon, you never do less than half maximum damage on a hit, rounded up.

Snap Shot: At the start of combat, before initiative is resolved, you get one free attack with any readied ranged weapon.

Steady Aim: One round per combat, you can focus with a ranged weapon and target any enemy as if they had an armor class of 9.

Faultless Aim: When shooting at an inanimate object or unaware enemy, roll twice and take the better hit and damage rolls.

Kill Shot: If you have two full rounds to prepare a ranged shot at a target that isn't aware of your presence, your weapon counts as a sniper rifle; on a hit, they must make a saving throw versus Physical Effect at a penalty equal to your relevant Combat skill or die instantly. If they survive, they take maximum damage.

Commander: You are a leader of men, women, and tentacular things. Whenever you have at least one comrade with you, you and every other ally within your group gains a +1 bonus to hit and a +2 bonus to Morale.

Predictive Awareness: Once per fight, ask the GM what the enemies you see are trying to do. The GM must describe their general combat goals and tactics, at least for the next round.

Terrifying Presence: Any Morale checks the commander or their allies force are taken with a -1 penalty by the enemy.

Trustworthy: Gain a +1 bonus to social skill checks when acting in the role of a protector or leader. Once per day, automatically convince an NPC of the intellectual truth of something you believe is true, if that conviction is at all compatible with their emotional investments.

Read Opposition: With a glance, you can identify the leaders and important persons in a group, even in the absence of outward insignia. You can determine the hit dice, armor class, and attack bonus of an opponent with one round of observing them in action, either combat or other plausible exertion.