Ok, I keep hearing how Saga is the best game WotC made, it's the best d20 game, it's what 4e should have been, etc. I hear it on the useless echo chamber boards as well as the good ones.
So what is the deal with Saga, what did they do mechanics-wise that makes it so awesome?
Quote from: CRKrueger;386254Ok, I keep hearing how Saga is the best game WotC made, it's the best d20 game, it's what 4e should have been, etc. I hear it on the useless echo chamber boards as well as the good ones.
So what is the deal with Saga, what did they do mechanics-wise that makes it so awesome?
No dead levels. Every level gives you SOMETHING (feat or talent or both).
Prestige classes don't require micro planning from character generation.
Skills are massively simplified. You have untrained, trained and skill focus. Untrained is just rolling an attribute, trained gives you +5 (and with some skills extra uses for the skill) and focus gives you +10.
Free multiclassing. Need to pick up a level of Soldier? Go ahead! And since class abilities are all talents and feats and not tied to class level, you don't get horribly gimped by dipping around.
For me, it's not only the best d20 game, it's the best Star Wars game, winning both categories by a large margin.
Take this for whatever you feel it's worth...I own the game but I've not had the opportunity to run or play it.
Saga is a streamlined version of D20 Star Wars...and the core system is very similar to the one that 4E uses (minus class powers)
4E concepts that Saga introduced:
-skill system.
-1/2 character level as a level dependent modifier
-no more iterative attacks
-class balance...kinda (jedi is STILL better than everything else...but not by such a wide margin)
-attacks vs. static defenses (reflex, fortitude or will)
-second wind (self healing)
-encounter based abilities
People say that Saga is what 4E should have been (I'm in this camp, myself) because it is a more polished and cohesive version of 3rd edition D&D (ymmv) that still clings to a more traditional style of gameplay.
On a side note, I've seen a couple fantasy conversions...one of which is pretty decent.
The annoying thing is that they both neglected to convert the classic D&D spell list into saga rules. Which sucks because Saga uses a cool system for Force Powers.
I think its the best incarnation of D20 I saw WOTC put out. Although Coc D20 might run a close second.
As said: No Dead level. Fairly solid use of the mechanics that are there. My only complaint that I feel Jedi were overpowered (then again I see the later movies "prequels" as Rebel propaganda to drum up strength for their side.)
There were some strange moments--but I don't own, and have not run it--only played it.
Quote from: Shazbot79;386260Take this for whatever you feel it's worth...I own the game but I've not had the opportunity to run or play it.
Saga is a streamlined version of D20 Star Wars...and the core system is very similar to the one that 4E uses (minus class powers)
4E concepts that Saga introduced:
-skill system.
-1/2 character level as a level dependent modifier
-no more iterative attacks
-class balance...kinda (jedi is STILL better than everything else...but not by such a wide margin)
-attacks vs. static defenses (reflex, fortitude or will)
-second wind (self healing)
-encounter based abilities
People say that Saga is what 4E should have been (I'm in this camp, myself) because it is a more polished and cohesive version of 3rd edition D&D (ymmv) that still clings to a more traditional style of gameplay.
I like that list.
Quote from: CRKrueger;386254Ok, I keep hearing how Saga is the best game WotC made, it's the best d20 game, it's what 4e should have been, etc. I hear it on the useless echo chamber boards as well as the good ones.
So what is the deal with Saga, what did they do mechanics-wise that makes it so awesome?
I don't think that's what 4e should have been. When talking about Saga while not knowing at all about any 4e around the corner, I kept saying to whoever wanted to hear the way Saga handles the Star Wars universe would not necessarily work with D&D. I had no idea this was a test run for 4e at the time.
Now, that said. Star Wars Saga is indeed great once you embrace the abstract nature of the game system and just roll with it on an intuitive level. It's great, and in some respects, even better than d6. It comes down to what you prefer as a role playing: abstract, intuitive yet detailed? Star Wars Saga. Simpler, intuitive and unified? D6 Star Wars.
The same way, on a nitpicky standpoint, people won't stand "levels" in the Star Wars universe for instance. That's fine. It's a question of expectations.
For me, personally? Saga's a good game.
Saga's fine, except for d20's level-based class system, and that's got no epic level rules...
It's all capped at level 20.
Sadlily it's discontinued...
The Force system actually models what we see in all six movies pretty well.
You can create a Force User that isn't a Jedi at all.
Multiclassing is seamless and simple.
The condition track is a nifty addition to the Hit Point system.
All kinds of other good stuff mentioned already.
PLUS: It ISN'T RCR or original d20 Star Wars, both of which suck the sweat from a dead man's balls.
Quote from: Phantom Black;386321Sadlily it's discontinued...
The corebook is still readily available. With that and wookiepedia, plus a galaxy full of non-gaming Star Wars source materials, you would have almost everything you need. Everything else would be frosting on a good cake.
I know I'm going to be keeping the game alive, no matter what WotC does.
Quote from: Shazbot79;386261On a side note, I've seen a couple fantasy conversions...one of which is pretty decent.
I don't suppose you have links? I know about Sword and Sorcery Saga but haven't found others. I've been considering using saga as a framework for an iteration of Iron Heroes for myself.
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386324I don't suppose you have links? I know about Sword and Sorcery Saga but haven't found others. I've been considering using saga as a framework for an iteration of Iron Heroes for myself.
Now that I'd like to see.
I haven't played it myself, but I've skimmed the rules and it looks nice. A good friend is an uber-gamer and super old school. HE tells me it's pretty amazing and he probably wouldn't be so militantly anti-4E if it had been more like Saga.
One thing that piqued my interest was how all the source books stack on top of the core rules. Unlike in 4E where i have to buy the PHB, the PHB 2, . . .the PHB 47, just to play a certain race or class. Everything you need to play appears to be right there in the core book, and (as already noted) you can mix and match from the various classes at will.
I should buy my own copy . . .
You lousy sonsabitches, you were supposed to say it wasn't any good, now I'll have to hit the FLGS. :p
Quote from: CRKrueger;386333You lousy sonsabitches, you were supposed to say it wasn't any good, now I'll have to hit the FLGS. :p
Hey, *I* didn't want to like it either...but here we are, and now I have the whole set.
Quote from: CRKrueger;386333You lousy sonsabitches, you were supposed to say it wasn't any good, now I'll have to hit the FLGS. :p
I didn't find the very slick and refined mechanics particularly Starsy or Warsy, if that helps.
Quote from: PaladinCA;386323The corebook is still readily available. With that and wookiepedia, plus a galaxy full of non-gaming Star Wars source materials, you would have almost everything you need. Everything else would be frosting on a good cake.
I know I'm going to be keeping the game alive, no matter what WotC does.
Maybe - but it will become less and less available as the weeks and months(years) roll on.
Last month was the last time that anything
new came out connected to the
STAR WARS license as published by WotC.
It will gradually become more and more difficult to find SAGA Star Wars books and supplements.
- Ed C.
Quote from: jrients;386340I didn't find the very slick and refined mechanics particularly Starsy or Warsy, if that helps.
I don't know--I love D6 Star Wars, a great deal, but I admit that a lot of that is the wonderful support material. The mechanics of D6 itself (which I prefer) are themselves not as focused as Star Wars Saga.
Mind you, I think D6 system's focus is being simple and graspable, and thus support material pushes it forward a great deal--especially with the well written 1E mood support material.
Saga is aimed at being Star Wars as best it can be--and it does so well enough. Plus it is way way less abusable in my experience than many D20 products.
Quote from: jrients;386340I didn't find the very slick and refined mechanics particularly Starsy or Warsy, if that helps.
I don't know--I love D6 Star Wars, a great deal, but I admit that a lot of that is the wonderful support material. The mechanics of D6 itself (which I prefer) are themselves not as focused as Star Wars Saga.
Mind you, I think D6 system's focus is being simple and graspable, and thus support material pushes it forward a great deal--especially with the well written 1E mood support material.
Saga is aimed at being Star Wars as best it can be--and it does so well enough. Plus it is way way less abusable in my experience than many D20 products, which is a positive thing for some of the d20 games I've witnessed.
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386324I don't suppose you have links? I know about Sword and Sorcery Saga but haven't found others. I've been considering using saga as a framework for an iteration of Iron Heroes for myself.
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/fantasy-concepts-campaign-resource/1948776 (http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/fantasy-concepts-campaign-resource/1948776)
Bon appetit.
Quote from: jrients;386340I didn't find the very slick and refined mechanics particularly Starsy or Warsy, if that helps.
I played in a campaign of it and I have to agree. I found it little different to the earlier versions of D20 Star Wars - that is, very slow and cumbersome.
Saga is still a d20 product, so if you have a problem with the system, per se, Saga's still not going to be your cup of tea.
That said, I think it's the best incarnation of the d20 Star Wars systems. Saga has better rules for Force Powers, but d6 still has better Starship Combat (oddly, I found d20 RCR better in this regard than Saga).
Force Powers are fairly powerful at lower levels, but less so as you level up, which helps explain why Jedi & Sith tend to duel with lightsabers.
For those wanting more of a generic, toolkit-style version of Saga: http://www.gmsarligames.com/blog.php/category/e20-system/
GM Sarli is one of the designers behind Star Wars Saga.
Quote from: Novastar;386378Saga is still a d20 product, so if you have a problem with the system, per se, Saga's still not going to be your cup of tea.
Well, I don't really like d20 much at all, and I dig Saga Edition.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;386387Well, I don't really like d20 much at all, and I dig Saga Edition.
Yeah. The "you don't like d20, therefore won't like Saga" doesn't strike me as a bulletproof argument.
Quote from: Benoist;386407Yeah. The "you don't like d20, therefore won't like Saga" doesn't strike me as a bulletproof argument.
Agreed. While I don't care for 3.X, Pathfinder or Trailblazer, I like Saga.
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386426Agreed. While I don't care for 3.X, Pathfinder or Trailblazer, I like Saga.
That's not a matter of not liking d20 (IM). "Core" d20 for me is the six attributes, d20 for success and levels. Maybe a few other things I'm not going to bother parsing, because I don't care that much about defining d20.
Oh, yeah. Skills and feats, too.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;386546That's not a matter of not liking d20 (IM). "Core" d20 for me is the six attributes, d20 for success and levels. Maybe a few other things I'm not going to bother parsing, because I don't care that much about defining d20.
Oh, yeah. Skills and feats, too.
When the first iteration of Star Wars d20 came out, I thought the idea of the six attributes, the classes and levels, skill and feats was the worst idea ever.
Saga Edition's an instant favorite, though.
I like Saga Edition and its supplements. The system's good for 6-10 levels of play (most games derived from d20/D&D are) and there's not a whole lot of detail that's missing (and frankly I don't care about what is missing).
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;386546That's not a matter of not liking d20 (IM). "Core" d20 for me is the six attributes, d20 for success and levels. Maybe a few other things I'm not going to bother parsing, because I don't care that much about defining d20.
Oh, yeah. Skills and feats, too.
Yep, that's what I meant by d20.
Some folks just don't like a level-based game, which given Star Wars previous incarnation (d6), they have a perfectly acceptable alternative.
(Realize, I game with a d6 nut and a HEROphile, so I get regular sermons of the "ebil's" of d20)
My biggest gripe about Saga Edition is the stat block creation for NPCs.
Sure you can use the ones in the supplements or the core book, but the higher in level they go, the harder it is to find something level appropriate.
Doing these stat blocks is time consuming and rather boring. I'm actually burning out on the mechanical aspects of NPC creation. This is after two long series of games mind you, but it is still a weakness that I see in the system.
The higher in level you go, the more difficult game prep is. In that, Saga Edition is not much different than D&D 3.5. I really wish Star Wars would have had a DDI component or received third party d20 software support. Doing the blocks by hand is just a pain in the ass once you get to the high level part of the game.
I'm actually considering a switch to a FATE 3.0 engine approach for the next Star Wars game that I run.
Quote from: PaladinCA;386807My biggest gripe about Saga Edition is the stat block creation for NPCs.
Sure you can use the ones in the supplements or the core book, but the higher in level they go, the harder it is to find something level appropriate.
Doing these stat blocks is time consuming and rather boring. I'm actually burning out on the mechanical aspects of NPC creation. This is after two long series of games mind you, but it is still a weakness that I see in the system.
The higher in level you go, the more difficult game prep is. In that, Saga Edition is not much different than D&D 3.5. I really wish Star Wars would have had a DDI component or received third party d20 software support. Doing the blocks by hand is just a pain in the ass once you get to the high level part of the game.
I'm actually considering a switch to a FATE 3.0 engine approach for the next Star Wars game that I run.
Huh.
Within a couple of weeks of getting the core, just to see how it would go, I started leveling guys up to 20. I find it to be incredibly easy, due mostly to the way skills are handled in this version.
That said, I'm not opposed to a system switch myself, but I'm far more likely to go Savage Worlds instead...(there's one really good conversion already, and I know the system well enough to make up the rest).
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;386834Huh.
Within a couple of weeks of getting the core, just to see how it would go, I started leveling guys up to 20. I find it to be incredibly easy, due mostly to the way skills are handled in this version.
That said, I'm not opposed to a system switch myself, but I'm far more likely to go Savage Worlds instead...(there's one really good conversion already, and I know the system well enough to make up the rest).
From the core book... sure, it is easy.
When you add in supplements... then it gets cumbersome.
I didn't have much of a problem with it until it reached eight plus supplements and beyond level ten.
Again, I still like the game. I'm just tired of d20 and creating stat blocks.
Quote from: PaladinCA;386849From the core book... sure, it is easy.
When you add in supplements... then it gets cumbersome.
I didn't have much of a problem with it until it reached eight plus supplements and beyond level ten.
Again, I still like the game. I'm just tired of d20 and creating stat blocks.
I think I was on the core and two or three supplements at the time...(did a lot of trading all at once).
I still don't have the problem now (with all the books), but that's probably because either something in one of the books has inspired me for the NPC in question, or I tend to default to a lot of the "basic" Feats...(Feats and Talents seeming to be what takes the most time, in my experience).
Heck, if I got ambitious and made a universal reference, I bet that time would disappear, too.
There used to be a regularly updated Excel generator (using Macro's) on WotC's site, in the forums (cunningly called "Don't call it a generator...").
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;386850Heck, if I got ambitious and made a universal reference, I bet that time would disappear, too.
There's a big honkin' feat/class/equipment index (the Omegadex) put together by FunkamusPrime over at the Order 66 podcast forums that might serve you well:
http://www.mediafire.com/?2dctzdadjkt
Another of their forum-goers, Zuben_Thoom, also put together a pretty damn large excell reference sheet of his own: http://www.mediafire.com/?ntejnyymezk
Quote from: Novastar;386857There used to be a regularly updated Excel generator (using Macro's) on WotC's site, in the forums (cunningly called "Don't call it a generator...").
Saga Sheet.
It is useful to a point. But it has more bugs than a Roach Motel.
Quote from: Rubio;386875There's a big honkin' feat/class/equipment index (the Omegadex) put together by FunkamusPrime over at the Order 66 podcast forums that might serve you well:
http://www.mediafire.com/?2dctzdadjkt
Another of their forum-goers, Zuben_Thoom, also put together a pretty damn large excell reference sheet of his own: http://www.mediafire.com/?ntejnyymezk
Oooh, thanks!