Quote from: Saphim;3970363. The math involved is better to grasp for children (you know, just add the pluses and subtract the minuses from your skill etc.)

Negative numbers may be deceptively hard for young kids to grasp.

WEG d6 Star Wars is great, till you get powerful Force-users. Then it becomes "The Amazing and his Medicore Friends!"

Saga d20 is the best of the d20 systems, hands down. About the biggest loss is the lack of multiple attacks (a gun can autofire, a character cannot), and the starship combat is still flaky to me.

It comes down to emulation for me; if I'm going with OT, where Force Powers are uber-rare and really put you in danger of meeting a guy named Vader, definitely WEG d6. If you want to go more PT or Clone Wars, then I'd go Saga d20.

(Note: if you make Force Powers work off an attribute, with Control, Sense, & Alter skills based off of it, I find that works wonders. Any damage from Force Powers is based off the Attribute, rather than the skill.)

Quote from: The Butcher;397047Negative numbers may be deceptively hard for young kids to grasp.

I'm going to keep it real simple, not even show them rules or books.  Just a character sheet with simplified scores/skills/abilities on it.  For example, in the impromptu game I ran the other day with the 6 yr old, I had him roll a 1d6 for each of muscles, brains, health, and quickness.  That was simple enough for him to understand.  And the check to climb the rope with queen amadala holding onto his back was based off his strength, where a 1 on a 1d6 meant he fell.  I'm going to keep it at that level of simplicity until they get older, incorporating new rules and abilities as they go.

If you want to simplify D6 further for the kids, you check out the D6 Legends variant http://www.polgarusgames.com/D6-Legend-and-Conversion-OGL.pdf

Basically instead of adding D6 you just count successes.

Star Wars Saga is good for the level ranges where it works. Star Wars D6... it could have been better.

Out of interest, I've heard people argue Saga was the best iteration but I've never seen it.  Anyone who's a fan care to share why they think it's so good?  Would you use it for original trilogy stuff?

Quote from: D-503;397106Out of interest, I've heard people argue Saga was the best iteration but I've never seen it.  Anyone who's a fan care to share why they think it's so good?  Would you use it for original trilogy stuff?

Well, since I've run a Demo of SW Saga about a dozen times, I'll try to field this one...

1) Simplified Classes. There is no longer a "Jedi Guardian" and "Jedi Consular" that are mechanically different; there is a "Jedi" class, and you can build them as a fighter-type or force-user based upon Feat & Talent selection. Star Wars, unlike D&D, heavily favors multi-classing, and makes it relatively simple.

2) Simplified Skills. Not only were skills consolidated down to 14 or so, but Skill Ranks were thrown out, and now you get a +5 bonus if trained in a Skill, which can be raised to +10 with the Skill Focus Feat. This makes Skill selection something you do at lvl1, not every level. You can still gain a new Skill by taking a Feat, if you so choose. Skills, trained or not, get a bonus of half your level, making a high level character inherently better at skills than a lower level one of equal training.

3) Simplified Defense & Saves: Defense is based off your Reflex (Dex) Save, and all Saves are static numbers, not rolls with bonuses. You just have to roll to see if an attack beat the DC now, rather than an attack and save roll. Defense goes up as you level, and armor is effective at lower levels, & to those that specialize in it at higher levels.

4) No extra attacks: No extra attacks for just standing around whaling on each other (the +20/+15/+10/+5 attacks of earlier incarnations). You can only take extra attacks if you dual wield or take special Feats, both of which have serious penalties to attack (making it an anti-mook ability, not anti-BBEG ability). This makes tactical attacks (disarm, trip, sunder) more attractive, and makes seeking advantaged ground more critical, rather than just seeing "who can outlast whom". (This is one of the more contentious issues I and my players have; I love this change, most of my players hate it)

5) Force Powers: No longer burn HP, but you have a limited amount you can use per fight. They are also more effective at lower levels (and against mooks), than against higher-level characters (hence why Jedi & Sith pull lightsabers).

6) No "wasted" levels: Each level in a base Class nets you either a Feat or a Talent, so you have no "wasted" levels, where you don't get any mechanical advantage to your character (beyond potential BAB, HP, and Save increase).

Frankly, having played SW Saga for over a year now, I do not recommend it.

This is one of those "spend the first game session generating characters" games. The Scout class (which mysteriously does not get the Treat Injury skill, even though Soldiers do) isn't so much a class as a way for Soldiers to lose a point of BAB in order to take Evasion. The Scoundrel class is good for nothing (except possibly the Knack talent); you might as well take Noble and walk away with 2 extra skills (which amount to feats), and if you want to be an underworld type, just take the Connections talent. Talents by the way, are the same thing as feats, except that you have to be in a certain class to take them (even though the bonus feats given by classes can only be drawn from a limited pool, making the distinction redundant).

The skill system is somewhat simplified from earlier incarnations (and this is a good thing). However, there are 3 main problems with it.

1) You cannot take skills from outside your class. At all. Even if you spend a feat on it. Your droid engineer character, being a Noble, is incapable of learning Mechanics.

2) Skills are either overly broad, or useless. All technical knowledge is either in Mechanics or Computer use, and virtually all characters will have these skills. And yet, there is a Jump skill. Let that sink in for a moment. The Endurance skill represents the same thing as Fortitude, and is thus redundant. The knowledge skills, other than Galactic Lore, are nigh worthless.

3) You add your whole level to Defense. The majority of characters will add their whole level to attacks. And yet, skills only get half your level. You start the game with skills being 5 or more higher than any other bonus, and end with them lagging behind, because the designers refused to use the levels system consistently.

The level range was poorly thought out. Even Jedi Padawans are listed as being 5th level on average, but the game becomes too complex to manage past about 10th level, given that you get at least one feat or talent every level. By 10th level, you are toting around 14 of them.

Two methods of playing droids are given; treating them as a race that is rolled up normally, or playing a stock model. However, the second option is a a mess of unclear rules and trap options, in part because "nonheroic" levels should not exist. As a side not, droids have no Constitution score, a rule that has been stupid in every game it has been in. Mysteriously, they still have Fortitude and can make Endurance checks.

Jedi are grossly overpowered, but you probably expect that. The real weird part is the way that force powers are used: you select a "suite" of force powers; if you take the same power twice you will get to use it twice. Every encounter, you can use each power in your suite once. Given that this setup is alien to the movies and books (and videogames, for that matter), I do not know why it was included. Also, if you don't houserule to allow non-Jedi force users to take the Jedi class but not get the lightsaber proficiency, they more or less can't be used.

Force points: just like every other "action point" system shoved into every game since the 90s. Move along, nothing to see here.

Destinies: Good idea, poor implementation. The idea is that working towards personal goals is mechanically incentivized, and you are, through the Destiny Fulfilled bonus, which entails something like an ability score boost or a skill bonus. However, the rules for "Moving closer to fulfilling you goal" are fiddly and add nothing to the game, and Destiny points are like Force Points, but worse. Despite the uses described in the book, they exist only for destiny point wars: someone attacks you, you spend a DP to negate the attack, they spend a DP to negate yours, etc.. They suffer from a problem similar to that of Perfect Defenses in Exalted.

Combat takes much longer than it needs to. The average attack will result in 4 dice of damage, and this number must then be compared to the targets Damage Threshold to see if the Condition Track (which is separate from HP) goes down. Attacks of Opportunity are still in the game (despite having had 3 editions to realize that they are a terrible idea). Lightsaber attacks are based on Strength, for some reason. Also, some lightsabers are referred to as "well balanced", which is impossible and a misunderstanding of the term.

In order to compensate for the handful of dice that are rolled for damage, characters start with huge piles of HP (Jedi and Soldiers start with 30+their Constitution modifier). The "Second Wind" mechanic allows you to, if you have have fewer than half your maximum HP left (?) spend a turn to regain some. This seems to exist only to prolong fights.

In order to benefit from wearing armor, you will be required to take 2 different talents which are available only to Soldiers. Note that this isn't Vacc Suit Operation; the game requires you to take Talents  too make armor protect you.

The starship rules vary between two extremes: simplistic, and bean-counting. On the simplistic side, the hyperspace travel rules are a downgrade from the earlier SW D20 games, and are not even in the core book. On the bean-counting side, it never occurred to the authors to use a damage "scale" system (like in D6); instead, every single attack has you rolling 6-10 dice, and multiplying the result, for damage. On top of that, the shield rules result in every ship rolling a Mechanics check to recover 5 points of Shield Rating, every turn.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Quote from: D-503;397106Out of interest, I've heard people argue Saga was the best iteration but I've never seen it.  Anyone who's a fan care to share why they think it's so good?  Would you use it for original trilogy stuff?

I mentioned my reasons up thread, and I would absolutely use it for original trilogy stuff.  It's the only official Star Wars RPG I would still use as a GM (I could probably still be convinced to play D6).

Thanks guys, nice range of opinions.

The feat per level thing, I get how if you start at level 10 that would be a total pain but if you start at first and work up won't you get to know them gradually through play?

Quote from: D-503;397131The feat per level thing, I get how if you start at level 10 that would be a total pain but if you start at first and work up won't you get to know them gradually through play?

More or less. The problem is, 10th is only half way up; at level 20 a character will have 27 feats and talents. Note that if you're playing a Jedi, you also get force powers and force secrets.

Hieronymus Rex' experience is diametrically opposed to mine.
I've never encounterred the stuff he calls out.
The Jedi in my group is outmatched by both the scoundrel and soldier in terms of skill and combat abilities. Granted, he has "the force", but he's not "grossly overpowered" at all.

Oh, and BTW, HR also didn't mention the jedi class is neither needed nor restricted to Jedi only.

But, i guess that's what he learned from playing it, not GMing it.


@D-503: I'd advise you take a look at the system yourself and not rely on neither my nor Hieronymus Rex' oppinion, because we're both biased as heck.

Oh, and if nothing works out at all, go look for the Savage Worlds conversion, there's a nice one out there, and Cheyenne Wright even made a nice stylized character sheet for it. ^^

Edit: It's ridiculous how HR twists truth.
A Jedi/Force-User does NOT get force powers for free as he levels up, he has to buy them (how many of them depends on Wisdom) via the force training feat, so a Force-user always has to split between his combat ability or force powers or other expertise fields.
A good lightsaber combatant won't be a competent force user etc.

Quote from: Phantom Black;397166Oh, and if nothing works out at all, go look for the Savage Worlds conversion, there's a nice one out there, and Cheyenne Wright even made a nice stylized character sheet for it. ^^

Incidentally, if I weren't using Star Wars Saga Edition, Savage Worlds is what I would be using.

Quote from: Phantom Black;397166the jedi class is neither needed nor restricted to Jedi only.

While the class is explicitly open to force users that are not Jedi, it remains a problem that they receive a lightsaber and the proficiency for it whether or not they should. Also, while one could play a force user that didn't take the Jedi class, it would gimp them something awful, since they would not be able to use their talents or bonus feats on the Force.

Quote from: Phantom Black;397166A Jedi/Force-User does NOT get force powers for free as he levels up, he has to buy them (how many of them depends on Wisdom) via the force training feat...

What I meant was that Jedi have more things to keep track of, not that they get things for free. Since Force Training grants 3-5 powers when taken, this creates a net increase.

Quote from: Novastar;397048WEG d6 Star Wars is great, till you get powerful Force-users. Then it becomes "The Amazing and his Medicore Friends!"

As a former fan of D6 and someone who not long ago ended a year and a half campaign with a jedi character I have to say I totally agree.

Not to mention that D6 while light and fast breaks at high levels