So how does the new rules tone down the impact of chrome? Last I played was 2e and the street sam's extreme speed using wired reflexes (3 I think..he pretty much had wired reflexes and a smartgun link and that's it), and his skill with his Colt Manhunters, pretty much meant that in any fight against anything less than a fully armored (or magically protected) foe he dominated. Most of the rest of us usually had very little to do once he'd had his chance to rock. It kept us safe, but kinda made the game boring for us alot of times.

The flat number of bonus actions does have me worried.  One of the annoying things with earlier editions is that you HAD to have at least 2 actions per round or you were dead, wet meat on a stick.

People talk about the munchkinizing of D&D, but it is a pale shadow (hah!) of Shadowrun, at least up through 3e.  If you don't bend the rules until they're screaming for mercy, you won't even survive to meet Mr. Johnson, much less make it out onto the mission...

Quote from: CyberzombieThe flat number of bonus actions does have me worried.  One of the annoying things with earlier editions is that you HAD to have at least 2 actions per round or you were dead, wet meat on a stick.

People talk about the munchkinizing of D&D, but it is a pale shadow (hah!) of Shadowrun, at least up through 3e.  If you don't bend the rules until they're screaming for mercy, you won't even survive to meet Mr. Johnson, much less make it out onto the mission...

I hear ya. Our mage pretty much hid cowering behind the troll until he had a chance to take an action....I think the mage ended up in the streetdoc's back room on an operating table more than anyone else, and you know what that can do to a mage. He's even the only one of us to have lost a limb (at least not willingly ). When he did get spells off he was ok, but after he died, none of us played a mage anymore...we only had a physical adept and the rest of us were street sams and mercs. We subcontracted the decking out (read "allowed GM to do it so we didn't have to sit around while the decker fucked around in the matrix"), and we only subcontracted a rigger when we absolutely needed a gifted driver (read "once in the whole time we played"). Guns and bombs, pretty much what our group was about.

Quote from: CyberzombieThe flat number of bonus actions does have me worried.  One of the annoying things with earlier editions is that you HAD to have at least 2 actions per round or you were dead, wet meat on a stick.

People talk about the munchkinizing of D&D, but it is a pale shadow (hah!) of Shadowrun, at least up through 3e.  If you don't bend the rules until they're screaming for mercy, you won't even survive to meet Mr. Johnson, much less make it out onto the mission...

Init in 2e was really wacked, with the faster people going first multiple times. 3e fixed that a bit in everyone went first once, but the wired out the wang people still aways went first. In SR4 initiative order is determined by a roll and is independant of the IP (initiative passes), so even a 1 IP character might act before a 4 IP character, and Edge can buy you a chance to go first as well.

In 4e you are still mostly hosed in combat if you have no way to bump up to 2 IP, but that is very easy augmentation via chrome, bioware (engineered flesh, first introduced late 2e I think), or magic.  Or if you go into Virtual Reality and to control a drone or do matrix work you then have 2 IP or 3 IP. Or with the new Edge attribute (that more or less replaces the function of the old Combat Pool and Karma Pool) because one of it's uses is to allow you to act during a single Init Pass you normally wouldn't be able to.

4 IP is the obsolute top end ever, instead of the 6 passes IIRC you could roll in SR3, so that keeps it a bit more sane.

As for obsolete books, Shadowrun has a definate divide in their books.  The 4 or 5 core crunch books are a rebuy, which isn't too bad after 7 years of SR3.  The fluff books are however completely reusable.  For example Shadows of Asia which was the last geographic setting book to come how is over 200 pages long. Of outside a multipage appendix table rating the Matrix hosts, maybe 3 pages mention any actual game mechnics stuff at all. Virtually total reuse.

No, the reason for stink is mostly along the tack of "the rules have to onerously hard to learn, or there is no way to provide a mental challenge, and you are just pandering the the unwashed masses of stupid people". Plus there some folks hung up on "realism". They want to play a simulation. Unfortunately SR3 wasn't really a simulation either. The rules were just so convuluted and complex that it simulated a simulation. The results were in fact quite bizzare. The Rigger 3 book, if you were so unlucky as to try use it verbatum, was an extreme example of that.

So "realism" is mostly a code word in one of two sense. "Realism" for players means rules so complex that they are a pain in the ass.  "Realism" for characters means trying to do anything is so hard that it is a pain in the ass. :imsorry:

On the new wireless Matrix, basically what it does is has riggers and deckers using the same basic tech and exist in the same world, and even using the same initiative. It also gives a lot more mobility to deckers right out of the box. Though there were ways by canon in SR3 you could have a bit more mobility, deckers were pretty much confined to their mom's basement.  SR4 got them out of the basement.

That actually sums up the biggest change from SR3 to SR4. It is now one game instead of 3 or 4 games that sort of work with each other but not quite. Even the dice system, while "new" isn't entirely foreign to the old dice system. SR3 had so damn many dicing variations that were wildly different from each other.  They just picked one, fixed TN, and used that as a theme throughout.

EDIT

On munkinism.  One thing to keep in mind that the power curve for characters is a lot flatter on advancement than D&D.  So while a starting character is very roughly speaking about 5th level, you really only scale up to about 10th level equivalent in practice. Also it isn't designed to keep the power of the character kinda even through out the character, you have more flexibility in where you allocate your strength. So right out of the gate a PC can pull off some really amazing feats, but the have to specialize to the point where they make the character less viable in a well rounded game.  So munkin style players tend to really stand out. All the more reason not to game with people that aren't on the same page as you in what kind of game you want to play.

That hasn't changed in SR4. If they did change that it would have ended up really changing the feel of the world, because that is just a side product of having a game where anyone one you meet could be dangerous to you.  You're a seasoned pro with 200 karma under your belt (about year's worth of gaming)? Well a street punk with a shotgun could easily get in a lucky shot and hurt you really bad if you are stupid enough to stand out in the open in front of him.

Hey Blakkie! Nice to see you here.


BTW: Get yourself an avatar before the Mods give you one.

Quote from: JongWKHey Blakkie! Nice to see you here.


BTW: Get yourself an avatar before the Mods give you one.

This is very wise advice. :heh:

Hrmm, I have this one laying around. Would this be an acceptable Avatar?http://www.escconsulting.net/graphics/waldotude.jpg

If not i guess I could try find another.

Quote from: blakkieHrmm, I have this one laying around. Would this be an acceptable Avatar?http://www.escconsulting.net/graphics/waldotude.jpg

If not i guess I could try find another.

Heck, just put it up there...if they don't like it they'll just find ya another.

Quote from: blakkieHrmm, I have this one laying around. Would this be an acceptable Avatar?http://www.escconsulting.net/graphics/waldotude.jpg

If not i guess I could try find another.

looks fine to me.

I can't garuntee some squirrel won't get bored and randomly change it, but that pretty much goes for everyone on this board. :heh:

Quote from: Thjalfilooks fine to me.

I can't garuntee some squirrel won't get bored and randomly change it, but that pretty much goes for everyone on this board. :heh:

There we go, complete with matching sig.

Quote from: blakkieInit in 2e was really wacked, with the faster people going first multiple times. 3e fixed that a bit in everyone went first once, but the wired out the wang people still aways went first. In SR4 initiative order is determined by a roll and is independant of the IP (initiative passes), so even a 1 IP character might act before a 4 IP character, and Edge can buy you a chance to go first as well.

That would be an improvement, just like 3e was over 2e.  At least two actions would still be *required*, but it's an improvement.

Quote from: blakkieIn 4e you are still mostly hosed in combat if you have no way to bump up to 2 IP, but that is very easy augmentation via chrome, bioware (engineered flesh, first introduced late 2e I think), or magic.  Or if you go into Virtual Reality and to control a drone or do matrix work you then have 2 IP or 3 IP. Or with the new Edge attribute (that more or less replaces the function of the old Combat Pool and Karma Pool) because one of it's uses is to allow you to act during a single Init Pass you normally wouldn't be able to.

4 IP is the obsolute top end ever, instead of the 6 passes IIRC you could roll in SR3, so that keeps it a bit more sane.

That is reassuring.  Especially that a non-chrome character actually has a chance to survive -- something that was NOT true in previous editions.

Quote from: blakkieNo, the reason for stink is mostly along the tack of "the rules have to onerously hard to learn, or there is no way to provide a mental challenge, and you are just pandering the the unwashed masses of stupid people". Plus there some folks hung up on "realism". They want to play a simulation. Unfortunately SR3 wasn't really a simulation either. The rules were just so convuluted and complex that it simulated a simulation. The results were in fact quite bizzare. The Rigger 3 book, if you were so unlucky as to try use it verbatum, was an extreme example of that.

I not only didn't try to use that, I never learned the basic rules of rigging in the game.  I just didn't fucking care any more at that point.  We had an NPC rigger that drove us everywhere without incident.  

Quote from: blakkieOn the new wireless Matrix, basically what it does is has riggers and deckers using the same basic tech and exist in the same world, and even using the same initiative. It also gives a lot more mobility to deckers right out of the box. Though there were ways by canon in SR3 you could have a bit more mobility, deckers were pretty much confined to their mom's basement.  SR4 got them out of the basement.

That is cool.  After a while, our decker went NPC, too, and the DM just rolled a couple of rolls and called it a day.

Quote from: blakkieThat actually sums up the biggest change from SR3 to SR4. It is now one game instead of 3 or 4 games that sort of work with each other but not quite. Even the dice system, while "new" isn't entirely foreign to the old dice system. SR3 had so damn many dicing variations that were wildly different from each other.  They just picked one, fixed TN, and used that as a theme throughout.

Cool.  I love the setting, but the rules SO needed fixing.  

Quote from: blakkieOn munkinism.  One thing to keep in mind that the power curve for characters is a lot flatter on advancement than D&D.  So while a starting character is very roughly speaking about 5th level, you really only scale up to about 10th level equivalent in practice. Also it isn't designed to keep the power of the character kinda even through out the character, you have more flexibility in where you allocate your strength. So right out of the gate a PC can pull off some really amazing feats, but the have to specialize to the point where they make the character less viable in a well rounded game.  So munkin style players tend to really stand out. All the more reason not to game with people that aren't on the same page as you in what kind of game you want to play.

That hasn't changed in SR4. If they did change that it would have ended up really changing the feel of the world, because that is just a side product of having a game where anyone one you meet could be dangerous to you.  You're a seasoned pro with 200 karma under your belt (about year's worth of gaming)? Well a street punk with a shotgun could easily get in a lucky shot and hurt you really bad if you are stupid enough to stand out in the open in front of him.

Well, see, I got sick and fucking tired of feeling vulnerable in the games, so I made Granola, the Natural Street Samurai.  Troll, with 11 Body, and every bit of that used for bioware.  His essence was still over 5 -- he only had cybereyes and a smartgun link.  (Those are ESSENTIAL Shadowrun items, at least up through 3e.  Even my mages had 'em.)  His diamond-tipped arrows could kill tanks and the only fight he ever retreated from was against cyberzombies.  (Mostly because he didn't want any of the other party members to die.)

A punk with a shotgun COULD NOT have hurt him and would have died a very brutal death under Granola's diamond-tipped axe.  Almost certainly in one hit.


From the sound of it, though, I couldn't make Granola in 4e, so the munchkin level has been cut WAY down.  Which I can live with, if it makes *all* characters viable and survivable now.  

I'm afraid that I never was able to use any addition of Shadowrun. Nor was I able to the use the setting as is.


Instead I stole some ideas, names, and bits of the setting- ported the whole thing to HERO and had a blast.