IIRC, R&E wasn't that different from the 2nd edition. It was a bit more legible, although a bit for the color-blind at times. I don't own the editon, but a friend of mine does, and as far as I remember, the actual changes were pretty minor. It had another wound level, right?

Quote from: Eric TollePersonally, I'm just wondering if Star Wars Saga will avoid the "you'll never ever ever be as cool as the main characters" attitude that D6 Star Wars had.  D20 went a long way towards that, by making the main characters actually in the same range as the PCs, so i'd be interested to see if Saga continues that trend.

That is my one gripe about Star Wars D6.

That is also a gripe about DC Universe, also made by WEG.  If you make a starting Power Level 5 character (supposed to be the Superman category) he's largely less efficient across the board than Robin.

Now, I love Robin...he's my favorite DC character but, especially in '98 or so, Tim Drake hadn't hit the stride where he was giving orders to Superman or anything.

I make sure that, in my Marvel SAGA game, the only people who aren't giving the PCs the respect they deserve are, in fact, the PCs.

Quote from: J ArcaneThe thing I always disliked about both systems, even in spite of my D6 lurve, was the annoying shortage of one hit kills.  D20 even moreso than D6, but even with D6 the lightsaber always seemed rather underdiced.  

Most things in the Star Wars movies die in one hit.  The heroes generally just avoid getting hit.

I meant more on the PC sides of things.  It is a good point though, because I remember feeling frustrated that Stormtroopers were as badass as they were.  With their armor it would often take several hits to take them down, unless a lightsaber using Jedi went after them.

The kill problem came out more prominently for me (this is all d20) with high level Jedi battles.  Crit ranges on the lightsabers in the mid teens were commonly 15+, and it wasn't unusual to have a character attack 3 to 5 times.  This frequently resulted in whichever Jedi won initiative won the combat.  Since lightsaber damage increased by level, 4 or 5d8 + (1-6 Str) damage to Wounds was easily fatal.

Ultimately we house ruled death into dismemberment (lose a hand and fall unconscious, etc.) to get around it.  I've heard of other groups using Force Point expenditures to avoid it, but then you have players hoarding the damn Force Points even more than they already do.

Quote from: AosSo is the Saga edition supposed to be lend itself to a more general type of space opera as well as the SW universe?

Not specifically. On the other hand, Star Wars _is_ cookie-cutter space opera, so changing the names a bit should prove no problem. Maybe I'll use it for the Captain Future campaign I always wanted...

Judging from the previews, it will be better to pull off the usual non-hard SF stuff we read about and see about. I just hope they put in a decent spaceship combat section. I don't want to concern myself with the turn radius of this specfic maneuver with this specific space fighter. If I don't have the time to make those Tie fighter noises, the designers have failed me. For the last time.

Quote from: J ArcaneWierd.

The thing I always disliked about both systems, even in spite of my D6 lurve, was the annoying shortage of one hit kills.  D20 even moreso than D6, but even with D6 the lightsaber always seemed rather underdiced.  

Most things in the Star Wars movies die in one hit.  The heroes generally just avoid getting hit.

D6 (the new stuff) solves this in two ways.

One is that rolling above and beyond the difficulty number adds damage: +1 pip for every 5 points over the difficulty. If the target was 10 and you rolled 18, you add +1 damage.

The other, and I dunno why I never thought of this, is simply to give minor NPCs fewer wound levels.  So instead of having Stunned, Wounded, Severely Wounded and Incapacitated, a mook with 3 Wound Levels would have Stunned, Mortally Wounded and Incapacitated (I think that's the progression, anyway). The WEG site has a chart on it somewhere...see if I can find it...whoa!  Here ya go, it's in the FAQ.

Quote from: Eric TollePersonally, I'm just wondering if Star Wars Saga will avoid the "you'll never ever ever be as cool as the main characters" attitude that D6 Star Wars had.  D20 went a long way towards that, by making the main characters actually in the same range as the PCs, so i'd be interested to see if Saga continues that trend.

Assuming the GM started you out at higher levels, yeah.  I've met few d20 GMs who do that, unfortunately.

Remember the awesome d20 ad campaign?  "What's this guy's story?"  They'd always pick out some random nameless rebel trooper or stormtrooper in the background.  "Someone had to steal it (the Lambda shuttle in RotJ) before Chewie could fly it."  The ad campaign was awful and I remember thinking at the time how much I didn't want to play Rebel Trooper # 7 who barely managed to escape Hoth.

Maybe it owes a lot to the Star Wars Adventure Journals and other WEG adventures.  Sometimes they were really good, showing other Jedi and bands of heroes doing cool shit during the Rebellion era.  Other times, though, it was the height of blandness.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonAssuming the GM started you out at higher levels, yeah.  I've met few d20 GMs who do that, unfortunately.

Well, starting out at different levels would be the more obvious solution. After all, don't try to balance Han and Luke in the beginning. Or the end, where their situation reversed. (Apparently the DM had a crush on the Leia player, so after Han seduced her, he didn't get any more XPs)

Back when i ran my SW campaign the issue of the pc being as cool as the characters in the movies never really came up. Of course they were that cool. this was before Return of the Jedi though, and the first two movies gave me the impression that the empire was HUUUUUUUGE and that the destruction of the first deathstar was more of a minor setback than anything else. i thought the rebellion was something that would take generations, and that there was all kinds of room for all kinds of cool stuff to take place in the vast stretches of available time and space. I remember watching the end of Jedi and being a bit taken aback by the fact that the rebel victory at the close of the movie signified the end of the war. Even now, when I think about it in light of the prequels, it just doen't seem right that the whole thing goes down in such a short time, dead emporer or not. As crappy as the prequels were they only seemed to emphasise the vast size of the empire.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonAssuming the GM started you out at higher levels, yeah.  I've met few d20 GMs who do that, unfortunately.

For most sf and modern games in which I choose d20, I usually start characters at some fixed level and don't progress them.  It's usually not a "high" level, but a competent level.  Probably that's just my initial exposure (Traveller) biasing everything I do now, though.   But I do think that progression is overrated.

Quote from: HalfjackFor most sf and modern games in which I choose d20, I usually start characters at some fixed level and don't progress them.  It's usually not a "high" level, but a competent level.  Probably that's just my initial exposure (Traveller) biasing everything I do now, though.   But I do think that progression is overrated.

I completely agree.  The peasant become knight model makes a lot of sense if you want to emulate particular fantasy novels, but most characters don't go from incompetent louts to incredibly competent folk.

I've met few people that like no progression, however.

You know what other question came to mind today...now that Saga is coming out, I wonder what will happen to D20 Star Wars (revised).

Star Wars D6 had a lot of sticking power because a lot of people played it for a lot of years...and it came along in the semi-early days when there weren't as many choices of RPGs to play AND it was Star Wars.  Good memories and familiarity make for a fan base that refuses to die in the RPG field.

But, what about D20?  I know, technically Saga is still D20, but it's definitely a new version of the game, not just a revision...so it makes me wonder if there will be any Die hard D20 Star Wars fans...and how long they will hold out?  Will every thread about Saga include not only D6 fans piping in, byut a legion of D20 fans piping in to scream about how much better the D20 version captured the feel of Star Wars, ect. ect.?

Quote from: grubmanBut, what about D20?  I know, technically Saga is still D20, but it's definitely a new version of the game, not just a revision...so it makes me wonder if there will be any Die hard D20 Star Wars fans...and how long they will hold out?  Will every thread about Saga include not only D6 fans piping in, byut a legion of D20 fans piping in to scream about how much better the D20 version captured the feel of Star Wars, ect. ect.?

Meh, SW D20 has two revisions already, and they changed quite a bit in the second one. You don't see too many people bitching about that. There will be some people not "upgrading", but probably just because they're content with their current version and don't need to spend more money. Not all Star Wars fans/players buy everything that comes out for the system. Which is something WEG didn't quite realize...

It takes a while to build up the total immunity to innovation that seems to be the hallmark of rabid old-school D&D players. Search your feelings.

In my experience, no one played the original SW d20 after revised came out.  I expect it'll be largely the same except for the fact that d20 Revised has had years to get on people's shelves.  That level of market penetration will likely result in it sticking around longer.

Well, I don't want to go into the scientific details, but the power of Natalie Portman's boobies

is insignificant compared to Darth Vader threatening to choke you if you don't buy WotC's newest offering.


(Yes, it seems to be square. Eat your heart out, Nobilis!)

I think SW D20 (the non-Saga editions) is only really worth it for my twacked-out idea of using it for a Star Wars / D&D crossover.

Otherwise, I think everyone else is pretty much going to pass it by for the new edition, stick with D6, or play the old edition only because they're too broke or uninformed to get the new one.