Fuck politicizing Star Wars.

It was supposed to be something we could all enjoy.

What's next SJW Care Bears vs. Alt-Right Smurfs?

Damn, its high time to burn this world to a crisp.

I think in the A New Hope period, Darth Vader would be able to seize the mantle of the Emperor because he's been a known quantity.

Beforehand, I think Vader might need a proxy.

Like, say, forcing Mas Amedda to be the new Chancellor and naming Vader head of the military.

Grand General or whatever.

As to the "rule of two" thing for the Sith, I always felt like Lucas got the two groups confused somehow. The Jedi might enforce a "rule of two" to self-police their organization, but the Sith would be active recruiters in order to spread their views as rapidly as possible. I haven't read the old era stuff, however, and maybe they explain it better than I understand it.

Of course, if the Jedi are supposed to be the galactic police force, then having only two cops doesn't work well, either.

Quote from: finarvyn;934001As to the "rule of two" thing for the Sith, I always felt like Lucas got the two groups confused somehow. The Jedi might enforce a "rule of two" to self-police their organization, but the Sith would be active recruiters in order to spread their views as rapidly as possible. I haven't read the old era stuff, however, and maybe they explain it better than I understand it.

Of course, if the Jedi are supposed to be the galactic police force, then having only two cops doesn't work well, either.

I think the Rule of Two exists solely so the Sith don't suffer Villain DecayTM. The idea being that there's only one Sauron and one Saruman so that a Sith Lord never becomes a mook. I think it makes less sense as an actual doctrine of faith. It makes more sense if the Sith have only been passing down their knowledge one to one if they're in hiding from the Jedi or the Emperor intends for Vader to eventually replace him.

Quote from: Spinachcat;933994Fuck politicizing Star Wars.
....Damn, its high time to burn this world to a crisp.

I learned to read from Sesame Street, the Funny Papers, and Comic Books before I started school.  My whole life, I've loved comics.  I've made friends over comics.  I've given children old comics of mine, taught them, and watched these kids grow into fans.  I've bought absurd merch.  I've had costumes.  

But since these things became politicized, I began a personal boycott.  I won't even open the box of comics I've still got (mostly GI Joe, Transformers, and Conan).  

These writers are making me hate things that used to bring me closer to people, and Star Wars is just another example.  I've never been a huge fan of Star Wars (I do have the classic, unaltered trilogy on VHS), but I used to appreciate it.

Quote from: CTPhipps;934016I think the Rule of Two exists solely so the Sith don't suffer Villain DecayTM. The idea being that there's only one Sauron and one Saruman so that a Sith Lord never becomes a mook. I think it makes less sense as an actual doctrine of faith. It makes more sense if the Sith have only been passing down their knowledge one to one if they're in hiding from the Jedi or the Emperor intends for Vader to eventually replace him.

It was instituted by Darth Bane. And it was shortsighted because by limiting the Sith to only two - it meant that there were only two force-users of that philosophy to explore the bounds of that philosophy in practice. This is like saying only two physicists from a particular school of thought can ever exist. Yeah it's dumb. It makes sense from Bane's perspective to knock-off all other competitors but then that proves his idiocy since competition is one of the strengths of the Sith (and yes, one of its weaknesses that led Bane to this absolutist position).

Take a look at the modern era of Star Wars - how much Force knowledge is being expanded on? ZERO. Meanwhile in the Old Republic era they were developing Force powers that Palpatine and his era could only guess at. Hence the power of the original Emperor was *vastly* more ambitious and scary.

As for the white-supremacy shit. Fuck off with that. The Empire has *always* been about supremacy for the ruling class. In the Old Republic it was for the Sith race - which ended up taking human DNA to continue its own line but it diluted their Force sensitivity. Humans ended up taking over. The Empire has almost always been about humans first. This whole dumb idea about it being about white-supremacy is idiotic.

Quote from: CTPhipps;933995I think in the A New Hope period, Darth Vader would be able to seize the mantle of the Emperor because he's been a known quantity.

Beforehand, I think Vader might need a proxy.

Like, say, forcing Mas Amedda to be the new Chancellor and naming Vader head of the military.

Grand General or whatever.

See, I don't agree.  I think by Empire he could.  I think it was Tarkin keeping him in check so much so that he was Tarkin's watchdog (see Leia's comments on the matter).  But by Empire, the GE had, shall we say "a fairly dynamic, zero-defects promotion" scheme in place thanks to Vader.

Quote from: CTPhipps;9338704. I'm inclined to think Vader in this reality is a lot less enamored of the Rule of Two than Palpatine as well as not really thinking himself as a Sith. I could easily see him having the galaxy scanned for people with Jedi potential then brought to be educated as part of a Dark Side knighthood.

A test for Jedi already exists, so it's likely that Vader was already scanning people just keeping the data secret from the Emperor. These newly trained dark Jedi could be just the tool Vader needs to establish control over the Empire.

Also, this testing will have found Luke. Who, lacking the lies of Obi-Wan, will naturally serve as Vader's right hand man and be the main villain to the PCs.

So, I'd suggest setting this particular campaign to just before ANH, rather than 10 years before.  

Quote from: Daztur;933971Anyone who thinks killing Nazis is controversal can fuck right off.

Not controversial, just lazy and overdone.

Art is, IMHO, political and any art which doesn't make a statement is worthless. You can make mindless brain candy but I think that is intellectually lazy and not something which should be encouraged. You may DISAGREE with the politics of art but all art is political. Even if it's something simple like, "fascism is bad."
And killing Nazis may be overdone in media but that's in large part because of Star Wars and Indiana Jones, which got there first (after WW2 at least).

Re: Vader and his Ascension

1. How the Emperor dies: I'm thinking for the actual adventure where the PCs go to Sith PlanetTM, I'm going to set up they're looking for an ancient Sith weapon and trying to destroy it before the Sith Lords get to it. I'm thinking instead of an actual weapon, though, it's going to turn out to be an Army of the Sith frozen in time by said artifact or carbonite or whatever.

With the advice given here in the game, I'm going to have the Emperor show up and the PCs are faced up against him and aware they're screwed but either have them accept the power of the Sith spirits around to attack Palpatine and leave him vulnerable to attack or have them refuse and then Vader will stab Palpatine in the back while he's distracted. Give them the option of being the ones to deliver the killing blow but really, either way, involved in the Emperor's assassination.

2. Thrown out of time: The PCs will escape the Sith Planet but there will be a kind of weird accident that leaves them in a hyperspace dilation for five years. When they emerge, Vader has been Emperor of the Galaxy for the past five years and released all of the Sith on Sith Planet which were frozen in time.

3. How Vader got to be Emperor: After Vader emerged from Sith planet, he claimed the Emperor was killed by the Rebel Alliance and then proceeds to blow up the Imperial Senate with a crashing Star Destroyer that he also blames on this mostly non-existant rebellion. He thus uses the disaster to get himself declared as Galactic Protector of the Empire.

I'm inclined also to have Vader plop up a little 5 year old looking child as the new Emperor, which is really just a clone of Palpatine or a boy taken from Naboo. Hell, it might also be a clone of himself because Vader is weird that way. Vader then begins a series of miltary conquests across the galaxy and makes use of hefty bribes ala Julius Caesar versus Palpatine's Augustus.

His Sith Knights are called the Shadow Knights and basically claimed to be the Jedi who didn't participate in the coup against Palpatine and have been cleared. They obey Vader because they're Old Republic MMORPG-era Jedi and Vader is just shy of Darth Vitiate in terms of power level so after suitable demonstration, they all submit to him.

Quote from: Crüesader;934024But since these things became politicized, I began a personal boycott.

Fuggedaboutit.

Don't let the clowns diminish your enjoyment of something you love with their stupidity.

Enjoy the good stuff. Toss the crap. Laugh at SJWs. Rinse and repeat.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;934045A test for Jedi already exists, so it's likely that Vader was already scanning people just keeping the data secret from the Emperor. These newly trained dark Jedi could be just the tool Vader needs to establish control over the Empire.

Also, this testing will have found Luke. Who, lacking the lies of Obi-Wan, will naturally serve as Vader's right hand man and be the main villain to the PCs.

Good idea!

...and they can rule the galaxy as father and son...

Ideas and comments to help crystallize your plot idea!

Quote from: CTPhipps;934076Re: Vader and his Ascension

1. How the Emperor dies: I'm thinking for the actual adventure where the PCs go to Sith PlanetTM, I'm going to set up they're looking for an ancient Sith weapon and trying to destroy it before the Sith Lords get to it. I'm thinking instead of an actual weapon, though, it's going to turn out to be an Army of the Sith frozen in time by said artifact or carbonite or whatever.

With the advice given here in the game, I'm going to have the Emperor show up and the PCs are faced up against him and aware they're screwed but either have them accept the power of the Sith spirits around to attack Palpatine and leave him vulnerable to attack or have them refuse and then Vader will stab Palpatine in the back while he's distracted. Give them the option of being the ones to deliver the killing blow but really, either way, involved in the Emperor's assassination.

The Old Republic MMO had a similar concept based on this cadre of Sith Lords so fucking crazy they were imprisoned in carbonite on the secret prison-planet of Belsavis (they were called the Dread Masters http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dread_Masters). They were in stasis for so long that when the original Emperor dies, they're released and go renegade. They're pretty scary and they'd probably waste Palpatine with zero effort as a group. Individually he could give a good showing.

There's also another option - a Sith Holocron. Maybe your PC's acquire a Holocron of a Sith Lord that imparts whatever teachings you require as a GM to kickstart how the original Sith Order codified things (which you can do as you see fit). And try to lure them directly to the darkside. Or at the very least it might lead directly to your frozen Sith spirits.

If you can tempt them over it will differentiate them from the Darth Bane Rule-o'-Two model. It would also give Darth Vader a stronger sense of ideological purity behind his motives than just "I'm going to kill Palapatine and do my own Emperoring."

Another obvious option is that Vader is the one that discovered the Holocron which gave him deeper insights into the "Real Sith Way" which he pursues on his own (or with the  PC's help) which could lead directly to option #2 below.

Quote from: CTPhipps;9340762. Thrown out of time: The PCs will escape the Sith Planet but there will be a kind of weird accident that leaves them in a hyperspace dilation for five years. When they emerge, Vader has been Emperor of the Galaxy for the past five years and released all of the Sith on Sith Planet which were frozen in time.

Never a bad thing to do. But there's a lot of potential gameplay if you can thread #1 and #2 together and make it so the PC's cause #2.

Quote from: CTPhipps;9340763. How Vader got to be Emperor: After Vader emerged from Sith planet, he claimed the Emperor was killed by the Rebel Alliance and then proceeds to blow up the Imperial Senate with a crashing Star Destroyer that he also blames on this mostly non-existant rebellion. He thus uses the disaster to get himself declared as Galactic Protector of the Empire.

IMO - it's a little "schemey" for Vader - but I could see it happen.

Quote from: CTPhipps;934076I'm inclined also to have Vader plop up a little 5 year old looking child as the new Emperor, which is really just a clone of Palpatine or a boy taken from Naboo. Hell, it might also be a clone of himself because Vader is weird that way. Vader then begins a series of miltary conquests across the galaxy and makes use of hefty bribes ala Julius Caesar versus Palpatine's Augustus.

I like the clone of himself. There's something creepy and narcissistic about it that feels flawed and perfect for Vader among other things.

Quote from: CTPhipps;934076His Sith Knights are called the Shadow Knights and basically claimed to be the Jedi who didn't participate in the coup against Palpatine and have been cleared. They obey Vader because they're Old Republic MMORPG-era Jedi and Vader is just shy of Darth Vitiate in terms of power level so after suitable demonstration, they all submit to him.

This could dovetail very nicely with #1, #2, and the clone bit.

I've never actually thought Vader was not a villainous mastermind actually. No, he's not Emperor Palpatine but if we recall the Original Trilogy:

1. He lets the Rebels escape in order to follow them back to their base.
2. He uses probe droids to scour the galaxy for the Rebels
3. He employs Bounty Hunters
4. He turns Lando against Han in order to capture him
5. He kept Luke secret from the Emperor while plotting against him

In short, I think Vader is actually very schemey.

He's just straightforward and blunt compared to Palpatine who would make Machiavelli look like Dirk Justice.

QuoteThe Old Republic MMO had a similar concept based on this cadre of Sith Lords so fucking crazy they were imprisoned in carbonite on the secret prison-planet of Belsavis (they were called the Dread Masters http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dread_Masters). They were in stasis for so long that when the original Emperor dies, they're released and go renegade. They're pretty scary and they'd probably waste Palpatine with zero effort as a group. Individually he could give a good showing.

There's also another option - a Sith Holocron. Maybe your PC's acquire a Holocron of a Sith Lord that imparts whatever teachings you require as a GM to kickstart how the original Sith Order codified things (which you can do as you see fit). And try to lure them directly to the darkside. Or at the very least it might lead directly to your frozen Sith spirits.

If you can tempt them over it will differentiate them from the Darth Bane Rule-o'-Two model. It would also give Darth Vader a stronger sense of ideological purity behind his motives than just "I'm going to kill Palapatine and do my own Emperoring."

Another obvious option is that Vader is the one that discovered the Holocron which gave him deeper insights into the "Real Sith Way" which he pursues on his own (or with the PC's help) which could lead directly to option #2 below.

I'm actually a big fan of Knights of the Old Republic and that's a big influence on the rest of the game as I'm causally ripping off plots left and right to make use of them in the game. Leading up to this game, which is the "second season" of the game, we actually had the PCs in Zakuul during the Clone Wars. I may well draw from the Outlander plot wiht the players setting up the Resistance against Vaders in this reality.

In this universe, the two Force Using PCs are the Arcann and Vaylin equivalent's siblings.

Really, though, the LS Sith Inquisitor has probably surpassed Revan for favorite Star Wars EU characters.

Quote from: CTPhipps;934191In short, I think Vader is actually very schemey.

He's just straightforward and blunt compared to Palpatine who would make Machiavelli look like Dirk Justice.

Vader is absolutely loyal to Palpatine. Pathetically so. In RotJ, he had the chance to kill the Emperor, join with Luke, and take over the Empire but he chose not to. Maybe this was just lazy screenwriting or a desire the conclude the story but I still can't get over it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;934080...and they can rule the galaxy as father and son...

That simpering little bitch-man?

No, Vader should ally with the Skywalker child with real balls.

Quote from: CTPhipps;934191I've never actually thought Vader was not a villainous mastermind actually. No, he's not Emperor Palpatine but if we recall the Original Trilogy:

1. He lets the Rebels escape in order to follow them back to their base.
2. He uses probe droids to scour the galaxy for the Rebels
3. He employs Bounty Hunters
4. He turns Lando against Han in order to capture him
5. He kept Luke secret from the Emperor while plotting against him

In short, I think Vader is actually very schemey.

SWEET now I can attack you!!!

See, I don't see these things as being schemey at all. These are all just standard operating procedure for a good command officer from the Empire. Vader is not doing anything particularly special (except the Luke secrets). Okay... that was a weak attack.

Quote from: CTPhipps;934191He's just straightforward and blunt compared to Palpatine who would make Machiavelli look like Dirk Justice.

Exactly. So hatching a PR campaign to justify his assassinating the Emperor sounds a bit too... schemey. Vader would just boldface say "Now *I* am the Master." and force-choke the shit out of anyone that said otherwise. Search your feelings, you know it's true.

Quote from: CTPhipps;934191I'm actually a big fan of Knights of the Old Republic and that's a big influence on the rest of the game as I'm causally ripping off plots left and right to make use of them in the game. Leading up to this game, which is the "second season" of the game, we actually had the PCs in Zakuul during the Clone Wars. I may well draw from the Outlander plot wiht the players setting up the Resistance against Vaders in this reality.

In this universe, the two Force Using PCs are the Arcann and Vaylin equivalent's siblings.

Really, though, the LS Sith Inquisitor has probably surpassed Revan for favorite Star Wars EU characters.

Yeah I raided in SWTOR for *years* and until the last two expansions I thought SWTOR in particular, was the best thing Star Wars ever produced. Better than the original trilogy *by far*. There is too much of the modern EU that can't extricate itself from the Skywalker/Solo families that just turns into endless narrative incest that makes the Old Republic era so much better and expansive. Frankly it's because it's a more honest sandbox to game in. Notice the very discussions in this thread that devolve into the binary "Kill Nazis" good-guy/bad-guy thing just because Lucas wrote it that way. When in the Old Republic setting you have those things, but you have a lot more nuance, a lot more options with free reign to mix it all up. *Especially* when it comes to Force-users.

And yeah... Revan. There's always Revan. In the modern EU - I'd put all the Tim Zahn stuff up there too. But Old Republic has the Chiss, so win/win