I think Star Trek is the perfect setting for a cyberpunk game. Particularly the 90s shows.
Even the original series had hits of the underbelly of the Federation and the underclass that inhabit it with characters like Cerino Jones and Harry Mudd.
The first real hint that there are underworld operations going on that I remember was the episode where the crew of the Enterprise was tracking some criminals and ended up in a moth ball ship yard where a Federation ship was supposed to be in lay-up was missing.
Deep Space Nine had lots of traders coming through and from time to time one of them was up to no good. Often it was played soft and was merely a way to get Oto some screen time or introduce a complication for the cast to solve but there were hints of the hard edge life of outlaws.
Does anyone remember the pilot episode for Star Trek Voyager? Viewed from the perspective of the Federation, it was the pursuet of criminals smuggling weapons but it could have been viewed as a group of edge runners on the run from the holier-than-thou authoritarians while they try to get away and finish their run before taking some much needed leisure time in their favorite dive bar full of other outlaws.
So here's my pitch;
In 2372, a crack STARS unit was sent to a penatentary planet by a Star Fleet court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security prison ship to the Alpha Quadrant underground. Today, still wanted by the Federation they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The Away-Team.
I like the way you think, BadApple. 8)
Also, don't forget the Orion Pirates. In the universe of the FASA Star Trek RPG I'm pretty sure they had a region of space near Orion known as "the Triangle" full of scum and villainy. Perhaps I'm getting that confused with the Tholian Holdfast region, at the intersection of Klingon-Romulan space. Either way, a hotbed of action there. And with the Klingons and Romulans trading tech, there must be some group of smugglers assisting the transfer.
An interesting vision of Star Trek. :)
What you really want is Babylon 5. It's everything you're talking about, and more.
Quote from: finarvyn on November 20, 2023, 08:21:18 AM
I like the way you think, BadApple. 8)
Also, don't forget the Orion Pirates. In the universe of the FASA Star Trek RPG I'm pretty sure they had a region of space near Orion known as "the Triangle" full of scum and villainy. Perhaps I'm getting that confused with the Tholian Holdfast region, at the intersection of Klingon-Romulan space. Either way, a hotbed of action there. And with the Klingons and Romulans trading tech, there must be some group of smugglers assisting the transfer.
An interesting vision of Star Trek. :)
Everyone likes to dismiss the scene of the slave girls from The Menagerie/The Cage where Christopher Pike was talking to slave traders as just a hallucination. I like to think of it as his memories about something that actually was part of the universe. Star Trek has such a squeaky clean image that the gritty parts really stick out to me.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig on November 20, 2023, 08:29:32 AM
What you really want is Babylon 5. It's everything you're talking about, and more.
I can definitely see that. Bester was my favorite character on the show becuase he was so compelling. I think B5 tipped their hand a little too much with him though as it would be fun to have a character to see as an adversary but be kept guessing as to his real nature. This is just one glimpse into the way a hopeful and shiny scifi setting can also be a great dystopia from the right perspective.
Dunno, Federation worlds always felt to clean, too sanitized IMHO, maybe that's why the series takes place in outer space.
There was ANOTHER Sci-Fi show, a cop show that William Shatner starred in IIRC or maybe he wrote it? Dang my aging brain, can't remember the name of what I'm thinking, who made it, who starred in it or even if it's real and not a dream.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 02:43:03 PM
Dunno, Federation worlds always felt to clean, too sanitized IMHO, maybe that's why the series takes place in outer space.
There was ANOTHER Sci-Fi show, a cop show that William Shatner starred in IIRC or maybe he wrote it? Dang my aging brain, can't remember the name of what I'm thinking, who made it, who starred in it or even if it's real and not a dream.
You may be thinking of the TekWar novels, which Shatner created and Ron Goulart ghost-wrote. They were pretty gritty in comparison to ST.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 02:43:03 PMDang my aging brain, can't remember the name of what I'm thinking, who made it, who starred in it or even if it's real and not a dream.
TekWar starred Greg Evigan, with Shatner as his too-cool-for-school-old-man boss.
Quote from: BadApple on November 20, 2023, 06:08:59 AM
I think Star Trek is the perfect setting for a cyberpunk game.
Then you simultaneously don't understand Star Trek or Cyberpunk.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 20, 2023, 02:49:16 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 02:43:03 PM
Dunno, Federation worlds always felt to clean, too sanitized IMHO, maybe that's why the series takes place in outer space.
There was ANOTHER Sci-Fi show, a cop show that William Shatner starred in IIRC or maybe he wrote it? Dang my aging brain, can't remember the name of what I'm thinking, who made it, who starred in it or even if it's real and not a dream.
You may be thinking of the TekWar novels, which Shatner created and Ron Goulart ghost-wrote. They were pretty gritty in comparison to ST.
Quote from: Grognard GM on November 20, 2023, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 02:43:03 PMDang my aging brain, can't remember the name of what I'm thinking, who made it, who starred in it or even if it's real and not a dream.
TekWar starred Greg Evigan, with Shatner as his too-cool-for-school-old-man boss.
YES! That's the thing I was thinking about!
Thank you both!
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2023, 02:56:31 PM
Quote from: BadApple on November 20, 2023, 06:08:59 AM
I think Star Trek is the perfect setting for a cyberpunk game.
Then you simultaneously don't understand Star Trek or Cyberpunk.
Then you didn't read my entire post.
The juxtaposition of the clean Utopia setting of Star Trek and the gritty live on the edge of a knife of cyberpunk I think looks like an oxymoron but actually blend together well. If we assume that even the garbage man and the fast food worker are living their perfect life then I have to call BS. If you're saying that those jobs don't exist, clearly they do because we've seen them on screen. So maybe the Federation is an imperfect future and we're being shown the glossy, glamorous, noble aspects of it and not the part where the less fortunate live. Maybe the dirty underbelly is still glossy but a miserable place to be anyway. Maybe this might be a great place to be an edge runner in.
Star Trek itself hints at this in multiple places. Rogue colonies, remote mining colonies where the supervisors act without regard to the lives and welfare of the miners, merchant ship captains not able to make payments on their ship so they stoop to smuggling Romulan ale, and cloning projects that got out of hand so they were buried rather than properly cleaned up are all plot devices of episodes of Star Trek. Some of those TOS episodes were really dark when you take and consider the implications of the content.
Quote from: BadApple on November 20, 2023, 03:25:26 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2023, 02:56:31 PM
Quote from: BadApple on November 20, 2023, 06:08:59 AM
I think Star Trek is the perfect setting for a cyberpunk game.
Then you simultaneously don't understand Star Trek or Cyberpunk.
Then you didn't read my entire post.
The juxtaposition of the clean Utopia setting of Star Trek and the gritty live on the edge of a knife of cyberpunk I think looks like an oxymoron but actually blend together well. If we assume that even the garbage man and the fast food worker are living their perfect life then I have to call BS. If you're saying that those jobs don't exist, clearly they do because we've seen them on screen. So maybe the Federation is an imperfect future and we're being shown the glossy, glamorous, noble aspects of it and not the part where the less fortunate live. Maybe the dirty underbelly is still glossy but a miserable place to be anyway. Maybe this might be a great place to be an edge runner in.
Star Trek itself hints at this in multiple places. Rogue colonies, remote mining colonies where the supervisors act without regard to the lives and welfare of the miners, merchant ship captains not able to make payments on their ship so they stoop to smuggling Romulan ale, and cloning projects that got out of hand so they were buried rather than properly cleaned up are all plot devices of episodes of Star Trek. Some of those TOS episodes were really dark when you take and consider the implications of the content.
Cyberpunk is a near future setting where corporate greed and government incompetence creates a space for an underground of people living on the edge of society. It features issues like the impact of technology on humans generally being neutral to very bad indeed. Tech is commonly a tradeoff of increasing human capability at the cost of identity. Or horribly misused to abuse people for personal and corporate gain. Humanity failed to solve their problems. There's always a war going on somewhere. Pollution and crime are rampant. People are constantly living in shades of moral grey.
Star Trek is a far future setting where humanity has evolved socially to solve all of the pressing problems of the world. Disease, hunger, war are no longer problems for earth. The government is a benevolent quasi-socialist utopia where everyone's basic needs are met, and technolgy allows people to pursue their interests without having to worry about going to a "job" to pay the bills.
Technology is typically a boon to people, allowing them to perform minor miracles as everyday occurances. War still happens, but it's very rare and usually involves alien species. People are living in a morally upright society where they don't have to worry about trusting their neighbor.
Now, yes, you can argue that the elevator pitch of the Federation is not quite what we get on the screen. And that's an interesting bit of wiggle room for writers to actually write interesting Star Trek stories instead of showing how boring humanity would be if the Federation were that perfect.
But, I think even pushing the gritty edge of Star Trek and the most hopeful edge of Cyberpunk still don't get very close. You can do it, but there does come a point where it isn't Star Trek anymore. Some would say the newer versions of Trek (09 and beyond) already do this.
Start Trek has an optimistic setting where many of humanity's problems have been solved. Hallmarks of cyberpunk are cynicism, nihilism, and dystopian settings. I don't think you could connect the two without changing one or both into something utterly different.
I disagree, Ratman. Because yeah, we're told that the Federation is a post-scarcity utopia, but we rarely if ever see that. The characters we see are people who are choosing to work and have productive careers, but I suspect in a post-scarcity socialist state there are millions or billions of people laid up in public housing with no work and no ambition. I could very much see a grim statement about human potential withering beneath the benevolent boot of such a society, of people growing up among generations of ancestors who never had to lift a finger and instead idly consume entertainment until the day they die, becoming desperate to actually make some kind of mark for themselves on the world and turning to any means to do that.
Is that cyberpunk? I'd argue that it's a technological dystopia and close enough to count. The corporate hyper-capitalism is lacking, but it's still a commentary on human nature being warped by technology.
Aspects of cyberpunk that Star Trek is missing:
-Out of control Corporatism
-A tiny population of the ultra rich, while the majority live in poverty
-Rampant criminality
-The horrors of extreme Urbanization, usually with ecological disasters
-A nihilistic sense that things can not improve
-A merging of man and machine, leading to a loss of humanity
-Violence and degradation as a daily occourance
-Human beings being considered largely expendable
-Centralized government being some combo of toothless/bought/powerless
-The loss of nature and spirituality, creating new pagan or tech-based cults
-A slick visual aesthetic. Everything is shit, but chromed up punks in leathers rock
It's like calling Friends Grimdark because there was an episode where they insinuated the guest star's character had a coke problem.
Cyberpunk isn't about corporations, greed, or even dystopia. Nor is there any limit to either time into the future nor the kind of technology available. Any of those limits that can be placed can be nullified by simply pointing out established and recognized cyberpunk stories that break them.
There are two elements needed in order for a narrative to be cyberpunk, punk and cyber. Punk is a counterculture lifestyle of outcasts that lies out side the acceptable social structure either because people rejected society or society rejected them. Cyber in this particular usage refers to the information made readily available due to computers and networking and the impact that has on people.
I am open to differing opinions on whether Star Trek has enough meat on the bones to make for good cyberpunk stories but I think I make a good case. I'll enumerate a few points here for further thought and discussion.
1. Cyberpunk is about social outcasts and no society, ether utopian or dystopian, will have a place for everyone. If there are outcasts that are willing to strive to live and refuse to capitulate to the social order, then we have a basis for a cyberpunk story.
2. I think a cyberpunk story set in the Star Trek setting would be very compelling because you'd have to try really hard to keep them from just being villains. In fact, the very idea of two adversaries who cannot coexist yet have equal and legitimate claim to a space make for a very interesting conflict. It's an excellent way to explore human morality without being amoral.
3. Players with attachments to the Star Trek setting would be great players. Their love of the setting and those that inhabit it would greatly reduce the chances of murder hobo behavior. The increase in drama from the need to complete a mission and the innate desire not to sully the setting would be immensely rewarding.
4. There's enough material about the Star Trek underworld just from the TV show and movies to at least give a solid frame work to the idea of edge runners without breaking lore. Take into account the licensed books and video games and I think we have enough for a solid source book on the matter.
5. The idea of exploring Star Trek through the eyes of an outcast would serve to strengthen the virtues of it rather that sully it. I would argue that the best Star Trek episodes were those where the Federation came up against their failures to be the ideals they hold. I also think that contrasting them with other moral codes would make those virtues more real to the player.
This is an interesting take, looking at the dark fringes of the Star Trek galaxy, the places untouched or better yet, left behind by the Federation. And there are a ton of those, like the planet where Tasha Yar is from, which, is, by any measure, is a hellhole, where "rape gangs" were a common threat- and this was written into the show. Of course, the Federation is 'supposed' to be squeaky clean, but nearly damn Admiral we see is basically a by the book absolutist, look at Nechayev who Picard has to rebel against multiple times, and others I'm forgetting.
And, of course, there are Maqui resistance fighters, who would essentially be a sort of cyberpunk-type setting. The Federation wouldn't be good guys in their POV.
Then you've got the 'Dabo girls' on DS9, who you know were essentially Quark's whores. I mean, it wasn't spelled out, but.. it was right there. And those holo-suites probably had a whole bunch of X-rated programs for paying customers. And then there's Risa...
So, yeah, there's plenty of material in the Star Trek universe for a 'cyberpunk' type take, imo.
Quote from: Valatar on November 20, 2023, 04:50:13 PM
I disagree, Ratman. Because yeah, we're told that the Federation is a post-scarcity utopia, but we rarely if ever see that. The characters we see are people who are choosing to work and have productive careers, but I suspect in a post-scarcity socialist state there are millions or billions of people laid up in public housing with no work and no ambition. I could very much see a grim statement about human potential withering beneath the benevolent boot of such a society, of people growing up among generations of ancestors who never had to lift a finger and instead idly consume entertainment until the day they die, becoming desperate to actually make some kind of mark for themselves on the world and turning to any means to do that.
That's the tired, deconstructionist take on Star Trek. It's good for a farce or parody, but it requires a kind of willful misrepresentation of the source material, and a giant wink at "the audience".
QuoteIs that cyberpunk? I'd argue that it's a technological dystopia and close enough to count. The corporate hyper-capitalism is lacking, but it's still a commentary on human nature being warped by technology.
And then you're no longer doing Star Trek.
I would agree that the setting doesn't hold up to critical scrutiny, but then a lot of fiction doesn't.
Cyberpunk doesn't need to be dystopian. Not all of the cyberpunk setting from the 80s and 90s were.
The reason that so many cyberpunk stories are set in a dystopia is it's easier to bring the reader (or viewer) on board with the perspective of the punk or edge runner, making them seam more reasonable. Not all utopias fit everyone. A character being forced to comply with a society that cannot be tolerate, even if everyone else is good with it, is all it takes to create the anti mainstream thread that's needed.
Putting an edge runner in an apparent utopian setting allows us to explore that setting in a way that venerated members of that society cannot. That said, it's well worth asking, is our Ted Kaczynski a prophet warning us about the failures of our society or just a whack job causing chaos.
Quote from: Valatar on November 20, 2023, 04:50:13 PM
I disagree, Ratman. Because yeah, we're told that the Federation is a post-scarcity utopia, but we rarely if ever see that. The characters we see are people who are choosing to work and have productive careers, but I suspect in a post-scarcity socialist state there are millions or billions of people laid up in public housing with no work and no ambition. I could very much see a grim statement about human potential withering beneath the benevolent boot of such a society, of people growing up among generations of ancestors who never had to lift a finger and instead idly consume entertainment until the day they die, becoming desperate to actually make some kind of mark for themselves on the world and turning to any means to do that.
For core Federation worlds, the post-scarcity utopia is pretty well demonstrated in the show and the copious amount of support material available from the show runners of TOS onward.
But there is certainly room in the Star Trek
universe for a cyberpunk type or grungy campaign. A lot of technology in Star Trek is also kind of 'dumb' compared to what we know about technological vulnerability (and much better shown in Ron Moore's version of Battlestar Galactica). As others mentioned, FASA Trek had the Triangle Campaign, which takes place where the Federation, Klingon and I think, Romulan Space meet. That would work out pretty well for such a campaign.
While I'm thinking of it, let me add a few more thoughts.
I'm not talking about deconstructing the setting of Star Trek anymore than I'd like to pull apart the USA to make the world a better place for bikers. Rather, I think it's healthy to look at all aspects of an issue, even fictional, so we get a clear picture of the whole. I think a view of the ST setting through the eyes of one that isn't accepted by mainstream society would be a fun and fresh way to explore something many of us love.
Go back and watch the ST:TNG episode The Drumhead and ask yourself about the poor souls that Picard wasn't there to stand up for. Then go back and reread the last paragraph of my OP and see if there's a functional concept for a campaign.
Quote from: BadApple on November 21, 2023, 05:06:26 AM
I'm not talking about deconstructing the setting of Star Trek anymore than I'd like to pull apart the USA to make the world a better place for bikers. Rather, I think it's healthy to look at all aspects of an issue, even fictional, so we get a clear picture of the whole. I think a view of the ST setting through the eyes of one that isn't accepted by mainstream society would be a fun and fresh way to explore something many of us love.
Go back and watch the ST:TNG episode The Drumhead and ask yourself about the poor souls that Picard wasn't there to stand up for. Then go back and reread the last paragraph of my OP and see if there's a functional concept for a campaign.
Star Trek has lots of inconsistencies. There are multiple series with hundreds of episodes, over a dozen feature films, and many dozens of novels and other works. If one selectively pulls out certain episodes (like "The Drumhead"), then it is easily possible to have the Federation be dystopian and imagine good-hearted cyberpunks running criminal operations against mega-corporations that control the inner workings.
That is against the vast majority of episodes and the spirit of the show, though - and would essentially be deconstructing.
Still, I do think there's room for good criminal operations around the edges of the Federation, though, like in the Romulan/Klingon/Federation Triangle, in Orion territory, or similar.
One issue for cyberpunk is that computers are nearly sentient and don't need any complex interface. Hacking is possible -- we've seen characters take control of computers -- but it looks a lot different than in classic cyberpunk.
Generally I agree with everyone else. You could look a long way before finding a sci-fi universe more thematically and aesthetically opposite of cyberpunk than Star Trek is. But that argument is well enough made by others, so instead let's talk about how you would do this, if you were going to.
Here's my proposal: The campaign is focused around a mega-station (like Babylon 5 or the Alpha Station from Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets), which is controlled by several competing Ferengi trade guilds. That gets you your urban jungle, your crime, sleaze, crony capitalism and corporate espionage. The PCs are essentially privateers, freelance operators loosely connected to some off-the-books branch of the Federation (much like 40K's Rogue Traders). That gets you your morally dubious outsider protagonists and frees you up from the utopian liberalism of Starfleet. The Federation wants to crack a Ferengi monopoly on some valuable resource, but the station's oligarchs won't allow an official Federation presence there, so they've had to resort to hiring a crew of outlaws and misfits. There's your "Punk".
If you want add in the "Cyber" element, I suggest that the Station is built around a derelict Borg Cube. The Ferengi have reverse-engineered the Borgs' hivemind technology and used it to create a prototype neural internet throughout the station. Anyone wanting to interact with the station, even just to move about and trade on board, has to undergo cybernetic implantation in order to interface with the systems. Maybe some shady covert ops group in the Federation wants to steal this technology, planning to neural-link its warship crews to make them more effective in battle. Or if you don't want to cast the Federation as the baddies, either the Romulans or the Klingons have the same plan, and the PCs have to prevent the tech falling into their hands.
To me, that opens up tons of adventure possibilities, trading with the station, hunting resources off-station to curry favor, playing spy-vs-spy with the Romulans, climbing the corporate and/or criminal ladders, all with the grand prize of tech that could tip the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant.
....Or you could go the lazy route and just warp your PCs to the Theta Quadrant or whatever, where you've plopped down a homebrewed cyberpunk setting...
EDIT: fixed some grammar/punctuation
Slightly unrelated note, but Cyberpunk is a somewhat broader genre than I think we're giving it credit for. Just running through some of the most cited examples:
Ghost in the Shell (at least Stand Alone Complex which is the version of it I'm most familiar with) and Paprika both present less dystopian futures than is standard. Akira is more concerned with government overreach than it is with corporate. Battle Angel: Alita skips the near-future element and goes full post-apocalyptic. Blade Runner and Judge Dredd both present more typical dystopias, but don't really engage with the whole internet/virtual reality side of things, while the Matrix eschews the social commentary almost entirely and focuses on the VR thing instead.
(Really the "machines take over and kill everyone" brand of sci fi is almost it's own genre, and maybe shouldn't even be called cyberpunk; I'd have to think about that one)
It's kind of only the narrow band of Cyberpunk properties that follow very directly on from Neuromancer (including the roleplaying game) that tend to put all the standard elements together as one.
Quote from: BadApple on November 21, 2023, 05:06:26 AM
While I'm thinking of it, let me add a few more thoughts.
I'm not talking about deconstructing the setting of Star Trek anymore than I'd like to pull apart the USA to make the world a better place for bikers. Rather, I think it's healthy to look at all aspects of an issue, even fictional, so we get a clear picture of the whole. I think a view of the ST setting through the eyes of one that isn't accepted by mainstream society would be a fun and fresh way to explore something many of us love.
That's perfectly fine. Characters like Harry Mudd or Okona or even Kassidy Yates exist. The Maquis is a great example of Federation citizens disagreeing with their government and going rogue.
QuoteGo back and watch the ST:TNG episode The Drumhead and ask yourself about the poor souls that Picard wasn't there to stand up for.
Again, this presupposes the the Federation is full of totalitarian assholes who just have good PR, and that incidents like in The Drumhead are the norm, and not the exception.
That's not Trek.
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2023, 02:58:09 PM
Here's my proposal: The campaign is focused around a mega-station (like Babylon 5 or the Alpha Station from Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets), which is controlled by several competing Ferengi trade guilds. That gets you your urban jungle, your crime, sleaze, crony capitalism and corporate espionage. The PCs are essentially privateers, freelance operators loosely connected to some off-the-books branch of the Federation (much like 40K's Rogue Traders). That gets you your morally dubious outsider protagonists and frees you up from the utopian liberalism of Starfleet. The Federation wants to crack a Ferengi monopoly on some valuable resource, but the station's oligarchs won't allow an official Federation presence there, so they've had to resort to hiring a crew of outlaws and misfits. There's your "Punk".
If you want add in the "Cyber" element, I suggest that the Station is built around a derelict Borg Cube. The Ferengi have reverse-engineered the Borgs' hivemind technology and used it to create a prototype neural internet throughout the station.
That sounds reasonable. There are different balances possible between how much Star Trek and how much cyberpunk there is. If there's too much cyberpunk, then what's the point of it being in the Star Trek universe, after all?
I also like the idea of being Harry-Mudd-esque scoundrels in the Romulan/Klingon/Federation Triangle. Having a ship isn't very cyberpunk, but it connects more to Star Trek. The PCs don't have to be Federation-connected, and I think it's better in some ways if they weren't. They could be outlaws and misfits with their own ship - running around and doing heists and smuggling of various sorts. Also, it's easier to get "cyber" via cyberware rather than from netrunning. Star Trek already has established cyberware like Geordi's visor.
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
Slightly unrelated note, but Cyberpunk is a somewhat broader genre than I think we're giving it credit for. Just running through some of the most cited examples:
Ghost in the Shell (at least Stand Alone Complex which is the version of it I'm most familiar with) and Paprika both present less dystopian futures than is standard. Akira is more concerned with government overreach than it is with corporate. Battle Angel: Alita skips the near-future element and goes full post-apocalyptic. Blade Runner and Judge Dredd both present more typical dystopias, but don't really engage with the whole internet/virtual reality side of things, while the Matrix eschews the social commentary almost entirely and focuses on the VR thing instead.
I don't really consider any of those cyberpunk. Manga is its own separate genre. To me cyber punk is Neuromancer, Johnny Mnemonic, Snow Crash, etc. I don't make any claims for the majority and don't care enough to try to research it, but that's where I'm at.
As an aside, if you like Ghost in the Shell, you might want to try Appleseed. GitS is great, but Masamune Shirow has done better.
Although I don't think Star Trek as presented fits cyberpunk at all, I would quite enjoy a take showing that the Federation is fundamentally broken and what we've seen previously is a facade. That could be punk, if not cyberpunk.
I really liked the original Star Trek as a kid, but when I got older and saw to what extent it was socialist propaganda it kind of ruined it for me. A game refuting the previous propaganda, showing just how badly socialist ideology breaks a society when put into practice, would be pretty cool.
Whether or not the Trekverse actually has this dystopia is moot. Trek has been rewritten by entertainment companies so you might as well get in there and have your way with the setting too.
What I want to know is what system would you use? The current Trek game is Modiphius' 2d20 and I personally don't find it inspiring. But if you used R. Taslorian's Cyberpunk to run a space game I would totally be down. Back when Cyberpunk first came out I used it to run Traveller and it woeked out pretty well.
Quote from: Mishihari on November 22, 2023, 01:42:47 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
Slightly unrelated note, but Cyberpunk is a somewhat broader genre than I think we're giving it credit for. Just running through some of the most cited examples:
Ghost in the Shell (at least Stand Alone Complex which is the version of it I'm most familiar with) and Paprika both present less dystopian futures than is standard. Akira is more concerned with government overreach than it is with corporate. Battle Angel: Alita skips the near-future element and goes full post-apocalyptic. Blade Runner and Judge Dredd both present more typical dystopias, but don't really engage with the whole internet/virtual reality side of things, while the Matrix eschews the social commentary almost entirely and focuses on the VR thing instead.
I don't really consider any of those cyberpunk. Manga is its own separate genre. To me cyber punk is Neuromancer, Johnny Mnemonic, Snow Crash, etc. I don't make any claims for the majority and don't care enough to try to research it, but that's where I'm at.
As an aside, if you like Ghost in the Shell, you might want to try Appleseed. GitS is great, but Masamune Shirow has done better.
Well, both William Gibson and Mike Pondsmith do. Both have made public comments about it. As I seem to remember, Pondsmith even saying that some of the supplements contain things that were direct lifts from anime, including the bulk of Maximum Metal and that's why he did a crossover book for Mekton.
Bubblegum Crisis is actually considered one of the seminal early cyberpunk works. It was introduced in 1987 and has shaped both American and Japanese cyberpunk since, inspiring Mike Pondsmith, Neal Stephenson, and others here in the US as well as countless others around the world.
ForgottenF has it completely right, cyberpunk as a genre is not dystopian scifi. It is scifi that explores the characters that don't conform to social norms and how both they and society are impacted by the high volumes of information computers can provide. As I've stated before in this thread, the dystopian angle is a literary tool that is used to make the counter culture characters more understandable and palatable.
Quote from: Mishihari on November 22, 2023, 01:42:47 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
Ghost in the Shell (at least Stand Alone Complex which is the version of it I'm most familiar with) and Paprika both present less dystopian futures than is standard. Akira is more concerned with government overreach than it is with corporate. Battle Angel: Alita skips the near-future element and goes full post-apocalyptic. Blade Runner and Judge Dredd both present more typical dystopias, but don't really engage with the whole internet/virtual reality side of things, while the Matrix eschews the social commentary almost entirely and focuses on the VR thing instead.
I don't really consider any of those cyberpunk. Manga is its own separate genre. To me cyber punk is Neuromancer, Johnny Mnemonic, Snow Crash, etc. I don't make any claims for the majority and don't care enough to try to research it, but that's where I'm at.
As an aside, if you like Ghost in the Shell, you might want to try Appleseed. GitS is great, but Masamune Shirow has done better.
Genre lines are always a bit fuzzy, but saying that Berserk and Sailor Moon are the same genre seems to be going a step too far. Manga is a medium if anything, and really it's not even that. It's just comic books from Japan.
Thanks for the recommendation, though. I've actually bounced off of Ghost in the Shell multiple times (both the manga and the anime). I keep trying because it's so influential, but it's never stuck for me, so maybe I should try Appleseed instead.
EDIT: Regarding your unusually narrow definition of Cyberpunk: I ran into a similar thing on another thread, where my definition of Dark Fantasy was wildly disparate from everyone else's. Ultimately I wound up just deciding I needed a different term for the genre I was talking about.
Quote from: BadApple on November 22, 2023, 02:50:03 AM
ForgottenF has it completely right, cyberpunk as a genre is not dystopian scifi. It is scifi that explores the characters that don't conform to social norms and how both they and society are impacted by the high volumes of information computers can provide. As I've stated before in this thread, the dystopian angle is a literary tool that is used to make the counter culture characters more understandable and palatable.
I do think you have to include the aesthetic element of cyberpunk in any reasonable definition of it. The augmentations, the leather, the retro-futurist fashion, neon lights, etc. are all universal
enough that I think it has to be considered. Really, Grognard GM's list from earlier in the thread isn't a bad one. The mistake would be in saying "you must have all these elements to be cyberpunk", rather than "the more of these you have, the more cyberpunk you are".
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2023, 09:58:59 AM
I do think you have to include the aesthetic element of cyberpunk in any reasonable definition of it. The augmentations, the leather, the retro-futurist fashion, neon lights, etc. are all universal enough that I think it has to be considered. Really, Grognard GM's list from earlier in the thread isn't a bad one. The mistake would be in saying "you must have all these elements to be cyberpunk", rather than "the more of these you have, the more cyberpunk you are".
Except much of that aesthetic is actually just 80s edgy look. It was a common trope in the movies, shows, and comics of the time to depict edgy characters in that look. Hell, the neon thing was lifted straight from Miami Vice and was in anything trying to look trendy or futuristic. If anything, trying to saddle that look onto cyberpunk holds it back rather than moves forward with it. You could call it a sub sub genre, retro cyberpunk. (Cyberpunk is in fact a sub genre of scifi, so...) Scifi isn't locked down to a particular look, neither are mysteries or fantasy.
Hey, if that aesthetic is something you dig, go for it. Me, I run a cyberpunk game where the PCs are usually wearing industrial work wear. I love a more low key and low profile type of runner. I also like to go for the more deeper meaning, the PCs being people lost in the gaps of society and making their own way rather than the flashy live fast and die young that so many go for. Being a disenfranchised person could lead someone to all kinds of different ways of dealing with it, going on a crime spree is only one way though the most exhaustively explored.
QuoteI ran into a similar thing on another thread, where my definition of Dark Fantasy was wildly disparate from everyone else's.
I get this. In general, a lot of people get a specific thing they think of as a genre and block out things that don't fit their restrictions. For me, I look at the people that are actually doing the most creation of the genre and see what they are saying. That's why I brought up well known authors in the genre rather than just claiming to be an expert that everyone should listen too.
If you'd like, I could offer other anime recommendations for cyberpunk, I'd say Psycopass, Armitage the Third, and Akudama Drive. Appleseed is good stuff and one of the best early anime cyberpunk titles.
Quote from: BadApple on November 22, 2023, 10:49:07 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2023, 09:58:59 AM
I do think you have to include the aesthetic element of cyberpunk in any reasonable definition of it. The augmentations, the leather, the retro-futurist fashion, neon lights, etc. are all universal enough that I think it has to be considered. Really, Grognard GM's list from earlier in the thread isn't a bad one. The mistake would be in saying "you must have all these elements to be cyberpunk", rather than "the more of these you have, the more cyberpunk you are".
Except much of that aesthetic is actually just 80s edgy look.
Not exclusively. The Matrix look is pure 90s cringe. Ditto Hackers and Deus Ex. Not sure how you'd define the Ghost in the Shell look. I don't think a one-piece bathing suit, a leather jacket and thigh-highs was fashionable in any decade.
QuoteI ran into a similar thing on another thread, where my definition of Dark Fantasy was wildly disparate from everyone else's.
Quote from: BadApple on November 22, 2023, 10:49:07 AM
I get this. In general, a lot of people get a specific thing they thing of as a genre and block out things that don't fit their restrictions. For me, I look at the people that are actually doing the most creation of the genre and see what they are saying. That's why I brought up well known authors in the genre rather than just claiming to be an expert that everyone should listen too.
If you'd like a could of other anime recommendations for cyberpunk, I'd say Psycopass, Armitage the Third, and Akudama Drive. Appleseed is good stuff and one of the best early anime cyberpunk titles.
I tend to the stance that genre distinctions ought to be a combination of common sense, lineage (i.e., the way one work is influenced by and borrows elements from another) and general consensus, hence why I'll tend to refer back to the most oft-cited examples. Important artists can have valuable insight into a genre, but I don't find their opinions dispositive. Artists can be, and often are, completely wrong about their own work.
Always happy to get recommendations. Cheers for that. :D
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2023, 12:56:59 PM
I don't think a one-piece bathing suit, a leather jacket and thigh-highs was fashionable in any decade.
You didn't see Flashdance?
Nope,...
Not likely The 'Cyberpunk' thing doesn't really fit into the "Star Trek" universe.
On one or two specific worlds it might look like it would fit - but not really.
The "Cyberpunk" thing works better in a setting like that of the show "The Expanse" and the books it is based upon.
-Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on November 23, 2023, 10:11:31 PM
Nope,...
Not likely The 'Cyberpunk' thing doesn't really fit into the "Star Trek" universe.
On one or two specific worlds it might look like it would fit - but not really.
The "Cyberpunk" thing works better in a setting like that of the show "The Expanse" and the books it is based upon.
-Ed C.
I intentionally provoked thought and discussion with my OP. While I disagree with you that Star Trek isn't suitable for cyberpunk play, I can respect that you have that opinion.
Honestly, The Expanse is Cyberpunk as written in the books. A small crew refusing to fly anyone else's flag and trying to keep alive is about as cyberpunk as it gets. There's more than just the drug fueled crime sprees that can be cyberpunk and I think The Expanse does an excellent job of showing that.
Only if you discard or disregard what has been the central message and themes of Star Trek since the very beginning. I guess you could use Picard as an inspiration since that series does the same thing.
Come to think of it, Cowboy Bebop is also a great space "cyberpunk-ish" setting.
YES I KNOW IT'S NOT ACTUALLY CYBERPUNK.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/404342411_732864085539535_4999763118735911773_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=kOzo36MfCxwAX8VXAzZ&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=00_AfByHMDl2eXHZi9OhIcBuxKVzMfZpq6e6A1So0z91eIvTA&oe=656559C1)
....
Quote from: BadApple on November 22, 2023, 02:50:03 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on November 22, 2023, 01:42:47 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
Slightly unrelated note, but Cyberpunk is a somewhat broader genre than I think we're giving it credit for. Just running through some of the most cited examples:
Ghost in the Shell (at least Stand Alone Complex which is the version of it I'm most familiar with) and Paprika both present less dystopian futures than is standard. Akira is more concerned with government overreach than it is with corporate. Battle Angel: Alita skips the near-future element and goes full post-apocalyptic. Blade Runner and Judge Dredd both present more typical dystopias, but don't really engage with the whole internet/virtual reality side of things, while the Matrix eschews the social commentary almost entirely and focuses on the VR thing instead.
I don't really consider any of those cyberpunk. Manga is its own separate genre. To me cyber punk is Neuromancer, Johnny Mnemonic, Snow Crash, etc. I don't make any claims for the majority and don't care enough to try to research it, but that's where I'm at.
As an aside, if you like Ghost in the Shell, you might want to try Appleseed. GitS is great, but Masamune Shirow has done better.
Well, both William Gibson and Mike Pondsmith do. Both have made public comments about it. As I seem to remember, Pondsmith even saying that some of the supplements contain things that were direct lifts from anime, including the bulk of Maximum Metal and that's why he did a crossover book for Mekton.
Bubblegum Crisis is actually considered one of the seminal early cyberpunk works. It was introduced in 1987 and has shaped both American and Japanese cyberpunk since, inspiring Mike Pondsmith, Neal Stephenson, and others here in the US as well as countless others around the world.
ForgottenF has it completely right, cyberpunk as a genre is not dystopian scifi. It is scifi that explores the characters that don't conform to social norms and how both they and society are impacted by the high volumes of information computers can provide. As I've stated before in this thread, the dystopian angle is a literary tool that is used to make the counter culture characters more understandable and palatable.
You can't really discuss ideas if the folks involved can't come to a consensus as to what the words being used to discuss it mean. Oh well
"Star Trek" is NOT 'Cyberpunk' - and never will be.
Bitsand pieces of what looks like "cyberpunk" may show up in "Star Trek" stories - but that does not make 'ST" into a cyberpunk thing.
There three episodes of "Deep Space Nine" where we see elements of things normally seen in 'cyberpunk' stories. They were "A Simple Investigation" (S5, Ep 17 - woman has a chip or cord socket in back of her skull), "Honor Among Thieves" (S6, Ep 15 - criminal has a data port in his head),....and possibly "Prodigal Daughter" in the 7th season. In most of those stories the world with elements of 'cyberpunk' is not a Federation world but on the frontier or on the borders.
In general the "star Trek" is too hopeful and optimistic to be a 'cyberpunk' kind of place.
- Ed C.
Geordi LaForge has a vision augmentation visor implant. That's an example from a major character. And pretty much everything about the Borg is loaded with implant tech. I see no reason why a campaign couldn't be set up to expand upon examples we have already seen and call it cyberpunk.
My reading of the OP wasn't that he wasn't trying to convert all of Star Trek to cyberpunk, or to argue that all of Star Trek is already cyberpunk, but instead was to run a campaign or a series of cyberpunk adventures in a Star Trek universe. Seems like there are lots of examples where the core elements are there, particularly if one is looking at non-Starfleet society on various planets. And those elements could interact with traditional Star Trek and make an interesting blend.
In my opinion.
As a whole and on its face, Star Trek is very anti-cyberpunk. Coping that "it's not really a utopia" means you disagree with Gene's vision, and if you did you wouldn't be the first science fiction writer to do so- nor, if some company hired you to write that story, would you be the first to take money to bring this non-Roddenberry Star Trek vision to life.
Points in this thread about looking at the few people who aren't happy with their utopia nor a life in the military and run about the wider sector trading spices and people for incredible riches (or failing at that) do show a valid way to tell a very different story in the Star Trek universe, and several times in the various shows we have seen evidence that this is a totally valid and intended way to do things.
But I'll present you with one better. For a cyberpunk story to hit, you need to have people who are outcasts- not served by any state, even one that purports to be their own (if there even IS a state, or is one where they are). Can you think of a group who, under Roddenberry's Star Trek, would not be welcome in Federation space, despite being human? A group that might be tolerated in the fringes of the Romulan Star Empire, or on the farthest area of Klingon space or even somewhere scarier?
Enhanced humans. Humans who use genetic engineering to live two hundred years, or be genetically smarter, or stronger. In Roddenberry's universe, these people inevitably turned evil, and existed in small groups that had to be hunted down. What if there was a planet of them, disorganized, and far enough away from human space that the Federation couldn't come in and sterilize them or whatever? The descendants of those who had escaped a society that had vowed, on a moral level, to never tolerate either individuals who wanted to make a better man, or groups of better men?
That story would start cyberpunk and stay that way as long as you were on your bespoke planet, but it would become a bit more space opera if you were to go exploring (you wouldn't see many humans wherever you were).
Anyway, that's my best shot at it.
Quote from: Venka on November 25, 2023, 10:08:20 AM
As a whole and on its face, Star Trek is very anti-cyberpunk. Coping that "it's not really a utopia" means you disagree with Gene's vision, and if you did you wouldn't be the first science fiction writer to do so- nor, if some company hired you to write that story, would you be the first to take money to bring this non-Roddenberry Star Trek vision to life.
Points in this thread about looking at the few people who aren't happy with their utopia nor a life in the military and run about the wider sector trading spices and people for incredible riches (or failing at that) do show a valid way to tell a very different story in the Star Trek universe, and several times in the various shows we have seen evidence that this is a totally valid and intended way to do things.
But I'll present you with one better. For a cyberpunk story to hit, you need to have people who are outcasts- not served by any state, even one that purports to be their own (if there even IS a state, or is one where they are). Can you think of a group who, under Roddenberry's Star Trek, would not be welcome in Federation space, despite being human? A group that might be tolerated in the fringes of the Romulan Star Empire, or on the farthest area of Klingon space or even somewhere scarier?
Enhanced humans. Humans who use genetic engineering to live two hundred years, or be genetically smarter, or stronger. In Roddenberry's universe, these people inevitably turned evil, and existed in small groups that had to be hunted down. What if there was a planet of them, disorganized, and far enough away from human space that the Federation couldn't come in and sterilize them or whatever? The descendants of those who had escaped a society that had vowed, on a moral level, to never tolerate either individuals who wanted to make a better man, or groups of better men?
That story would start cyberpunk and stay that way as long as you were on your bespoke planet, but it would become a bit more space opera if you were to go exploring (you wouldn't see many humans wherever you were).
Anyway, that's my best shot at it.
Survivors of the Eugenics wars would make great punks. With their superhuman physical and mental abilities, it lends itself to taking on the kinds of small unit operations that make for a solid table experience.
Quote from: BadApple on November 20, 2023, 06:08:59 AM
In 2372, a crack STARS unit was sent to a penatentary planet by a Star Fleet court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security prison ship to the Alpha Quadrant underground. Today, still wanted by the Federation they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The Away-Team.
I can see it, though my brain keeps on flicking to
Equinox and
Firefly as parallels. It doesn't take too much of a stretch to put the Federation as something that lays on top of a much more questionable (and shades of grey) society that interfaces for motivations other than "the betterment of humanity" (or whatever). Be that the Ferengi and their latinum or whatever.
The problem that you're going to run into is when people start telling you that you're missing the point if you don't view a setting in the same way that they do, which presumably is the "same" as the originators (or so they believe).
Warhammer 40,000 is perhaps the gold standard for these type of shenanigans.
Either way, the fit might not be perfect, but I can certainly see how cyberpunky shenanigans could go on in the
Star Trek setting.
I mean, in the case of Star Trek, we have a bunch of stuff explicitly by Roddenberry. If you are acting outside of that, then you are acting outside of what the "real" Star Trek is. If you are acting inside of that, then you are not. The real reason trekkies get picky about this is that the original vision is optimistic, principled, interesting, and extremely powerful. In that universe, you can act towards the greater good and, while you might get played for it occasionally, overall almost all people eventually see the value of cooperation and being, well, good. It's the idea that our future can be brighter than our past.
That's why weaselly fucks like Harlan Ellison, when asked to write a story, immediately made it about drugs and addiction and all the vices he believes are eternal weaknesses. The moment he could touch something pure, he tried to defile it, because that's what his philosophy about the future is. Back then, Roddenberry had enough power to say no. Nowadays all of Star Trek is irreverent cartoon weirdos doing butt stuff and shitting on teh ebil yt man or whatever, but you will notice that this is just as non-canon as any other Spock/Kirk slashfic.
With all that said, there's definitely a dark underbelly- it just isn't the Federation, as regards humans. There's plenty of wacky stuff going on at the edges, and all manner of screwy abusive alien races doing screwy abusive crap, and as I pointed out in my other post, escaped enhanced humans could be close enough to humans and not illuminated by the light of the Federation.
Fuck it.
Quote from: Venka on November 26, 2023, 01:11:23 AM
I mean, in the case of Star Trek, we have a bunch of stuff explicitly by Roddenberry. If you are acting outside of that, then you are acting outside of what the "real" Star Trek is.
Okay, totally valid. Even while I hate it from the perspective of
Warhammer 40,000, and I'm not a fan of an IP or universe being so inflexible as it cannot be pushed this way or that? Totally valid.
I guess at my heart I feel that once a universe/IP has been released into the wild, it's up to each table to determine what makes sense. That this is not the same thing that you're talking about is totally true.
I will, however, disagree that in the context of the above that "it isn't the Federation" might not play out at
another table (this might be goal-post-shifting). Sure, this means that you're going to have a bigger upsell to
Star Trek grognards, but might it not be a fun setting to explore if its put in front of you in those terms? Not, "We're going to play
Star Trek...", but "We're going to play a
Star Trek that focuses on The Federation as a bunch of..." etc.?
I'm not going to take the reasoning further here, but it's not hard to see The Federation
as it stands being represented as a bad guy in an alt-setting that draws in other themes?
At least, that's where I took the original premise. I can totally see that as an interesting setting to explore even if it might not be vanilla
Star Trek.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 26, 2023, 05:48:17 PM
Okay, totally valid. Even while I hate it from the perspective of Warhammer 40,000, and I'm not a fan of an IP or universe being so inflexible as it cannot be pushed this way or that? Totally valid.
Well, flip the script. Imagine I was running a 40k RPG campaign where all the races (even Chaos and Tyranids) manage to establish meaningful communication and peace breaks out across the galaxy. Societies refocus their former militaries and war machines into institutions focused on improving the lives of citizens across the galaxy. The game would be about repairing all the damage done over the millenia, and exploring how the various factions and races can get along.
I could do it. The Game Police aren't going to stop me. But I seriously doubt that any 40K player would find the idea appealing, except maybe as an April Fools one-off.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 26, 2023, 05:48:17 PM
I'm not going to take the reasoning further here, but it's not hard to see The Federation as it stands being represented as a bad guy in an alt-setting that draws in other themes?
At least, that's where I took the original premise. I can totally see that as an interesting setting to explore even if it might not be vanilla Star Trek.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 26, 2023, 11:25:25 PM
Well, flip the script. Imagine I was running a 40k RPG campaign where all the races (even Chaos and Tyranids) manage to establish meaningful communication and peace breaks out across the galaxy. Societies refocus their former militaries and war machines into institutions focused on improving the lives of citizens across the galaxy. The game would be about repairing all the damage done over the millenia, and exploring how the various factions and races can get along.
I could do it. The Game Police aren't going to stop me. But I seriously doubt that any 40K player would find the idea appealing, except maybe as an April Fools one-off.
I agree about Kage2020's take on the Federation. I think most Star Trek fans wouldn't take well to the Federation as a dystopian society with megacorps (or the equivalent) keeping down punks bucking the system.
However, many years ago I did play in a short-lived Klingon campaign using the FASA Star Trek system and Klingon sourcebook. No one felt that it was anti-Star-Trek to do that, and it seemed in keeping with both the letter and spirit of the series. There are dirty, dangerous places within the universe of Star Trek - they're just not the core worlds of the Federation.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 26, 2023, 11:25:25 PM
I could do it. The Game Police aren't going to stop me. But I seriously doubt that any 40K player would find the idea appealing, except maybe as an April Fools one-off.
And the thing is? I don't have a problem with it. I'm not saying that I would play that game, but I have less of a problem with that then the people that say what is, or isn't, 40k.
With that said, I totally get the notion of shared expectations when talking about an IP. But really all you're doing is riffing off of those expectations. "This but this" is a totally valid thing to do when pushing boundaries and being creative.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 27, 2023, 03:41:57 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 26, 2023, 11:25:25 PM
I could do it. The Game Police aren't going to stop me. But I seriously doubt that any 40K player would find the idea appealing, except maybe as an April Fools one-off.
And the thing is?
The thing is, in general, there are expectations around certain settings. We all have a general understanding of what playing an RPG set in Dark Sun or Star Wars or Star Trek or Paranoia or Toon will be like. You can put out an ad at your local game shop or pub, mention the name of the game and/or setting, and potential players will have a decent idea of what the game will be like. Players who sign up will likely be interested because they find the general themes and ideas of the setting appealing to play in.
QuoteWith that said, I totally get the notion of shared expectations when talking about an IP. But really all you're doing is riffing off of those expectations. "This but this" is a totally valid thing to do when pushing boundaries and being creative.
Certainly. And it's also wise to recognize when you've left the boundaries of those expectations and your game is no longer appealing to those players. They might be on board with a "What if?" version of Trek or Wars or whatever. They might not.
There's also a thread of "This is what Star Trek is/would really be like!" going through this conversation. Ideas like, the Federation is really a 1984 style dystopia with space ships and better PR. While also a valid way to play the setting, a GM should be aware that this approach is likely to honk off fans of the setting who accept that some of it's ideas are silly, but are generally on board with the "brighter, hopeful future plus space adventures" style of Trek that they expect.
Amusingly enough, this was the approach of the first season of Picard. * And it went over like a lead balloon.
* I have not watched any Trek after the 09 film. It doesn't appeal to me, and I'm running off of Red Letter Media reviews.
I don't think there's any reason to flip the setting on it's head or even go across the grain of Star Trek as Gene Roddenberry created it.
There will always be people that will live as outlaws no matter what. There will also be people for various reasons just don't fit in with the culture. I think it reinforces the setting and the good That Mr. Roddenberry was going for when we explore the setting for that perspective. Where would those people go? How would they live? How would a mostly utopian society handle interactions with those that just choose not to conform?
In this vein, the PCs wouldn't even have to be at direct odds with the Federation or Star Fleet but it could be a relationship akin to the one Oto and Quark had. We already have lots of stories about a rascally character with a loving but perturbed loved one trying to bring them in line. Why would this be an out-of-character dynamic with Star Trek? You could even go so far as to say that characters break the rules that Star Fleet can't in an antihero way.
Quote from: BadApple on November 27, 2023, 06:12:18 PM
In this vein, the PCs wouldn't even have to be at direct odds with the Federation or Star Fleet but it could be a relationship akin to the one Oto and Quark had. We already have lots of stories about a rascally character with a loving but perturbed loved one trying to bring them in line. Why would this be an out-of-character dynamic with Star Trek? You could even go so far as to say that characters break the rules that Star Fleet can't in an antihero way.
DS9 was all about those edge characters. By setting the show on a Bajoran station that was allied to the Federation but not a member, they had the room to do these kinds of things. In The Pale Moonlight was an episode that explored the kind of relationship you describe. Garak helped Captian Sisko get the Romulans involved in the Dominion war, but (spoilers for a 25 year old episode) had to do some very shady things to accomplish it.
Yeah, DS9 and Voyager both lend themselves better to a Cyberpunk angle for something in the Star Trek universe. There's also the episode where O'Brien infiltrates the Orion Syndicate (why it had to be O'Brien and not someone else in Starfleet Intelligence I have no idea, beyond of course telling a story with a main character). When DS9 took that turn, and Voyager from the start, was after Roddenberry had died. DS9 turned to being more Babylon 5 and Voyager a bit more into Batlestar Galactica. That's fine. As far as canon goes, not all Trek is Roddenberry Trek.
I think "Cyberpunk" is the wrong word for the setting? What is it that they call "Alien"? "Cassette futurism"? I think that fits in better than cyberpunk if you're trying to make a gritty less "everything is perfect" kind of description of star trek. Or just call it was it is "space western" because its a "wagon trail in space"
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 05, 2023, 01:07:29 PM
I think "Cyberpunk" is the wrong word for the setting? What is it that they call "Alien"? "Cassette futurism"? I think that fits in better than cyberpunk if you're trying to make a gritty less "everything is perfect" kind of description of star trek. Or just call it was it is "space western" because its a "wagon trail in space"
It's not the setting that makes a cyberpunk story cyberpunk, it's the characters. My hypothesis that I started this thread with is that Star Trek is an excellent setting for cyberpunk characters to have adventures in and that in turn could illuminate Star Trek in a new way.
Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 01:23:27 PM
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 05, 2023, 01:07:29 PM
I think "Cyberpunk" is the wrong word for the setting? What is it that they call "Alien"? "Cassette futurism"? I think that fits in better than cyberpunk if you're trying to make a gritty less "everything is perfect" kind of description of star trek. Or just call it was it is "space western" because its a "wagon trail in space"
It's not the setting that makes a cyberpunk story cyberpunk, it's the characters. My hypothesis that I started this thread with is that Star Trek is an excellent setting for cyberpunk characters to have adventures in and that in turn could illuminate Star Trek in a new way.
I believe that hypothesis is flawed then. There are many interesting and different stories you could focus on that are going on in the trek universe, but at the core trek characters aren't cyberpunk
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 12, 2023, 10:30:16 AM
I believe that hypothesis is flawed then. There are many interesting and different stories you could focus on that are going on in the trek universe, but at the core trek characters aren't cyberpunk
That's precisely the point. Imagine a story that centers around Harry Mudd, Khan, and Quark as a team doing questionable jobs and avoiding Star Fleet interference.
Quote from: BadApple on December 12, 2023, 05:43:50 PM
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 12, 2023, 10:30:16 AM
I believe that hypothesis is flawed then. There are many interesting and different stories you could focus on that are going on in the trek universe, but at the core trek characters aren't cyberpunk
That's precisely the point. Imagine a story that centers around Harry Mudd, Khan, and Quark as a team doing questionable jobs and avoiding Star Fleet interference.
That would probably be the best way to make use of the Star Trek universe. Don't try emulating any of the shows, but still be able to draw on all the things that are known by everyone.
Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 01:23:27 PM
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 05, 2023, 01:07:29 PM
I think "Cyberpunk" is the wrong word for the setting? What is it that they call "Alien"? "Cassette futurism"? I think that fits in better than cyberpunk if you're trying to make a gritty less "everything is perfect" kind of description of star trek. Or just call it was it is "space western" because its a "wagon trail in space"
It's not the setting that makes a cyberpunk story cyberpunk, it's the characters. My hypothesis that I started this thread with is that Star Trek is an excellent setting for cyberpunk characters to have adventures in and that in turn could illuminate Star Trek in a new way.
Hmnn. How about saying "It's a Space Western - Let's call it 'Man With No Name' in space"?
Quote from: finarvyn on November 20, 2023, 08:21:18 AM
I like the way you think, BadApple. 8)
Also, don't forget the Orion Pirates. In the universe of the FASA Star Trek RPG I'm pretty sure they had a region of space near Orion known as "the Triangle" full of scum and villainy. Perhaps I'm getting that confused with the Tholian Holdfast region, at the intersection of Klingon-Romulan space. Either way, a hotbed of action there. And with the Klingons and Romulans trading tech, there must be some group of smugglers assisting the transfer.
An interesting vision of Star Trek. :)
You're right and wrong. In FASAtrek, the Triangle was a no-man's land of single planets, single systems, and pocket empires - pretty much the original Traveller vibe. The Tholians were off in another corner of the map.
In Star Fleet Battlesverse, well put a map of 1940 Europe on the wall. The Federation is France. In the upper right of the map is an enemy nation waiting to invade (think Germany), while in the lower right is another nation waiting to invade (think Italy). What prevents them from attacking as a united front is a fiercely independent and paranoid nation who has loudly proclaimed belligerent neutrality (think Switzerland). That is where SFB put the Tholians.
(I prefer SFBverse, and would set any games there, rather than FASA or more recent efforts).
Star Trek is not a cyberpunk setting in any way.
Star Trek is the pseudomilitary space opera of the movie Forbidden Planet, mixed with the sci fi voyage of exploration themes from A.E. van Vogt's book The Voyage of the Space Beagle. (The latter's odd title is a reference to the ship HMS Beagle that took Charles Darwin to the Galapagos Islands, btw, not to Snoopy.) It is broadly utopian, but conflict is a constant theme (again, think Forbidden Planet). It is set in the far future.
Cyberpunk is a dystopian view of society, mixed with a somewhat utopian view of technology. In cyberpunk, all technology eventually becomes as cheap as human life, but unlike Star Trek it does not improve the human condition. Cyberpunk was originally set in the near future, in an urban setting devoid of space opera themes, but as its original timeline has been overtaken by the present, it has become more of an alternate universe. There are space colonies, but they are depicted cynically, and it is assumed that they are no better than life on earth.
This whole thread makes me want to start a thread about the 'right way' to run a good or fun Star Trek RPG campaign....
Sorry,...apologies - I know that is not 'on topic'....
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on December 17, 2023, 01:00:51 PM
This whole thread makes me want to start a thread about the 'right way' to run a good or fun Star Trek RPG campaign....
Sorry,...apologies - I know that is not 'on topic'....
- Ed C.
Admittedly, I knew that I would spark up some controversy when I started this thread. I love the original series and the hopeful outlook it had. I can understand how it can ruffle feathers looking at the setting with a different perspective. No need to apologize.
I do have to put the question out there though. If I had recommended a Klingon game centered around combat and honor, would it still have been wrong? It does go against the major theme of the shows...
Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 01:41:37 PM
I do have to put the question out there though. If I had recommended a Klingon game centered around combat and honor, would it still have been wrong? It does go against the major theme of the shows...
A group that is a Command crew of a Klingon cruiser is a very much more valid campaign framework.
TWO game companies have given that as an option over the years - Both the FASA company back in the 1980s and more recently Modiphius with their game system.
Heck, "Deep Space Nine" set at least two episodes 90% on a Bird of Prey with General Martok commanding. The episode "Soldiers of the Empire" is a classicf RPG situation - group of 4 or 5 are not sure about their commander. Will the First Officer do the right thing? Who can they trust?
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on December 17, 2023, 01:00:51 PM
This whole thread makes me want to start a thread about the 'right way' to run a good or fun Star Trek RPG campaign....
Sorry,...apologies - I know that is not 'on topic'....
- Ed C.
Honestly, I'd read that thread.
Or even just a "how I ran my Trek game" thread with followup on how it turned out.
I'd enjoy running a Trek or Trek-like game at some point, and I'd love to get some pointers.
Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 01:41:37 PM
I do have to put the question out there though. If I had recommended a Klingon game centered around combat and honor, would it still have been wrong? It does go against the major theme of the shows...
Show me a Star Trek show with a Klingon ship and crew as the main characters, and you might have a point.
As it is, the series(s) do have some Klingon centric epsiodes. And combat and honor feature heavily in them. And in many they question the ideas of Klingon honor compared to the reality of how the Klingon people actually act. Kind of comparable to asking if the Federation is really a utopia.