I mean, in the case of Star Trek, we have a bunch of stuff explicitly by Roddenberry.  If you are acting outside of that, then you are acting outside of what the "real" Star Trek is.  If you are acting inside of that, then you are not.  The real reason trekkies get picky about this is that the original vision is optimistic, principled, interesting, and extremely powerful.  In that universe, you can act towards the greater good and, while you might get played for it occasionally, overall almost all people eventually see the value of cooperation and being, well, good.  It's the idea that our future can be brighter than our past. 

That's why weaselly fucks like Harlan Ellison, when asked to write a story, immediately made it about drugs and addiction and all the vices he believes are eternal weaknesses.  The moment he could touch something pure, he tried to defile it, because that's what his philosophy about the future is.  Back then, Roddenberry had enough power to say no.  Nowadays all of Star Trek is irreverent cartoon weirdos doing butt stuff and shitting on teh ebil yt man or whatever, but you will notice that this is just as non-canon as any other Spock/Kirk slashfic.

With all that said, there's definitely a dark underbelly- it just isn't the Federation, as regards humans.  There's plenty of wacky stuff going on at the edges, and all manner of screwy abusive alien races doing screwy abusive crap, and as I pointed out in my other post, escaped enhanced humans could be close enough to humans and not illuminated by the light of the Federation.

Fuck it.

Quote from: Venka on November 26, 2023, 01:11:23 AM
I mean, in the case of Star Trek, we have a bunch of stuff explicitly by Roddenberry.  If you are acting outside of that, then you are acting outside of what the "real" Star Trek is.

Okay, totally valid. Even while I hate it from the perspective of Warhammer 40,000, and I'm not a fan of an IP or universe being so inflexible as it cannot be pushed this way or that? Totally valid.

I guess at my heart I feel that once a universe/IP has been released into the wild, it's up to each table to determine what makes sense. That this is not the same thing that you're talking about is totally true.

I will, however, disagree that in the context of the above that "it isn't the Federation" might not play out at another table (this might be goal-post-shifting). Sure, this means that you're going to have a bigger upsell to Star Trek grognards, but might it not be a fun setting to explore if its put in front of you in those terms? Not, "We're going to play Star Trek...", but "We're going to play a Star Trek that focuses on The Federation as a bunch of..." etc.?

I'm not going to take the reasoning further here, but it's not hard to see The Federation as it stands being represented as a bad guy in an alt-setting that draws in other themes?

At least, that's where I took the original premise. I can totally see that as an interesting setting to explore even if it might not be vanilla Star Trek.

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 26, 2023, 05:48:17 PM
Okay, totally valid. Even while I hate it from the perspective of Warhammer 40,000, and I'm not a fan of an IP or universe being so inflexible as it cannot be pushed this way or that? Totally valid.

Well, flip the script. Imagine I was running a 40k RPG campaign where all the races (even Chaos and Tyranids) manage to establish meaningful communication and peace breaks out across the galaxy. Societies refocus their former militaries and war machines into institutions focused on improving the lives of citizens across the galaxy. The game would be about repairing all the damage done over the millenia, and exploring how the various factions and races can get along.

I could do it. The Game Police aren't going to stop me. But I seriously doubt that any 40K player would find the idea appealing, except maybe as an April Fools one-off.

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 26, 2023, 05:48:17 PM
I'm not going to take the reasoning further here, but it's not hard to see The Federation as it stands being represented as a bad guy in an alt-setting that draws in other themes?

At least, that's where I took the original premise. I can totally see that as an interesting setting to explore even if it might not be vanilla Star Trek.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 26, 2023, 11:25:25 PM
Well, flip the script. Imagine I was running a 40k RPG campaign where all the races (even Chaos and Tyranids) manage to establish meaningful communication and peace breaks out across the galaxy. Societies refocus their former militaries and war machines into institutions focused on improving the lives of citizens across the galaxy. The game would be about repairing all the damage done over the millenia, and exploring how the various factions and races can get along.

I could do it. The Game Police aren't going to stop me. But I seriously doubt that any 40K player would find the idea appealing, except maybe as an April Fools one-off.

I agree about Kage2020's take on the Federation. I think most Star Trek fans wouldn't take well to the Federation as a dystopian society with megacorps (or the equivalent) keeping down punks bucking the system.

However, many years ago I did play in a short-lived Klingon campaign using the FASA Star Trek system and Klingon sourcebook. No one felt that it was anti-Star-Trek to do that, and it seemed in keeping with both the letter and spirit of the series. There are dirty, dangerous places within the universe of Star Trek - they're just not the core worlds of the Federation.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 26, 2023, 11:25:25 PM
I could do it. The Game Police aren't going to stop me. But I seriously doubt that any 40K player would find the idea appealing, except maybe as an April Fools one-off.

And the thing is? I don't have a problem with it. I'm not saying that I would play that game, but I have less of a problem with that then the people that say what is, or isn't, 40k.

With that said, I totally get the notion of shared expectations when talking about an IP. But really all you're doing is riffing off of those expectations.  "This but this" is a totally valid thing to do when pushing boundaries and being creative.

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 27, 2023, 03:41:57 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 26, 2023, 11:25:25 PM
I could do it. The Game Police aren't going to stop me. But I seriously doubt that any 40K player would find the idea appealing, except maybe as an April Fools one-off.

And the thing is?

The thing is, in general, there are expectations around certain settings. We all have a general understanding of what playing an RPG set in Dark Sun or Star Wars or Star Trek or Paranoia or Toon will be like. You can put out an ad at your local game shop or pub, mention the name of the  game and/or setting, and potential players will have a decent idea of what the game will be like. Players who sign up will likely be interested because they find the general themes and ideas of the setting appealing to play in.

QuoteWith that said, I totally get the notion of shared expectations when talking about an IP. But really all you're doing is riffing off of those expectations.  "This but this" is a totally valid thing to do when pushing boundaries and being creative.

Certainly. And it's also wise to recognize when you've left the boundaries of those expectations and your game is no longer appealing to those players. They might be on board with a "What if?" version of Trek or Wars or whatever. They might not.

There's also a thread of "This is what Star Trek is/would really be like!" going through this conversation. Ideas like, the Federation is really a 1984 style dystopia with space ships and better PR. While also a valid way to play the setting, a GM should be aware that this approach is likely to honk off fans of the setting who accept that some of it's ideas are silly, but are generally on board with the "brighter, hopeful future plus space adventures" style of Trek that they expect.

Amusingly enough, this was the approach of the first season of Picard. * And it went over like a lead balloon.

* I have not watched any Trek after the 09 film. It doesn't appeal to me, and I'm running off of Red Letter Media reviews.

I don't think there's any reason to flip the setting on it's head or even go across the grain of Star Trek as Gene Roddenberry created it.

There will always be people that will live as outlaws no matter what.  There will also be people for various reasons just don't fit in with the culture.  I think it reinforces the setting and the good That Mr. Roddenberry was going for when we explore the setting for that perspective.  Where would those people go?  How would they live?  How would a mostly utopian society handle interactions with those that just choose not to conform?

In this vein, the PCs wouldn't even have to be at direct odds with the Federation or Star Fleet but it could be a relationship akin to the one Oto and Quark had.  We already have lots of stories about a rascally character with a loving but perturbed loved one trying to bring them in line.  Why would this be an out-of-character dynamic with Star Trek?  You could even go so far as to say that characters break the rules that Star Fleet can't in an antihero way. 

Quote from: BadApple on November 27, 2023, 06:12:18 PM

In this vein, the PCs wouldn't even have to be at direct odds with the Federation or Star Fleet but it could be a relationship akin to the one Oto and Quark had.  We already have lots of stories about a rascally character with a loving but perturbed loved one trying to bring them in line.  Why would this be an out-of-character dynamic with Star Trek?  You could even go so far as to say that characters break the rules that Star Fleet can't in an antihero way.

DS9 was all about those edge characters. By setting the show on a Bajoran station that was allied to the Federation but not a member, they had the room to do these kinds of things. In The Pale Moonlight was an episode that explored the kind of relationship you describe. Garak helped Captian Sisko get the Romulans involved in the Dominion war, but (spoilers for a 25 year old episode) had to do some very shady things to accomplish it.

Yeah, DS9 and Voyager both lend themselves better to a Cyberpunk angle for something in the Star Trek universe. There's also the episode where O'Brien infiltrates the Orion Syndicate (why it had to be O'Brien and not someone else in Starfleet Intelligence I have no idea, beyond of course telling a story with a main character). When DS9 took that turn, and Voyager from the start, was after Roddenberry had died. DS9 turned to being more Babylon 5 and Voyager a bit more into Batlestar Galactica. That's fine. As far as canon goes, not all Trek is Roddenberry Trek.

I think "Cyberpunk" is the wrong word for the setting? What is it that they call "Alien"?  "Cassette futurism"? I think that fits in better than cyberpunk if you're trying to make a gritty less "everything is perfect" kind of description of star trek.  Or just call it was it is "space western" because its a "wagon trail in space"

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 05, 2023, 01:07:29 PM
I think "Cyberpunk" is the wrong word for the setting? What is it that they call "Alien"?  "Cassette futurism"? I think that fits in better than cyberpunk if you're trying to make a gritty less "everything is perfect" kind of description of star trek.  Or just call it was it is "space western" because its a "wagon trail in space"

It's not the setting that makes a cyberpunk story cyberpunk, it's the characters.  My hypothesis that I started this thread with is that Star Trek is an excellent setting for cyberpunk characters to have adventures in and that in turn could illuminate Star Trek in a new way.

Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 01:23:27 PM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 05, 2023, 01:07:29 PM
I think "Cyberpunk" is the wrong word for the setting? What is it that they call "Alien"?  "Cassette futurism"? I think that fits in better than cyberpunk if you're trying to make a gritty less "everything is perfect" kind of description of star trek.  Or just call it was it is "space western" because its a "wagon trail in space"

It's not the setting that makes a cyberpunk story cyberpunk, it's the characters.  My hypothesis that I started this thread with is that Star Trek is an excellent setting for cyberpunk characters to have adventures in and that in turn could illuminate Star Trek in a new way.

I believe that hypothesis is flawed then. There are many interesting and different stories you could focus on that are going on in the trek universe, but at the core trek characters aren't cyberpunk

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 12, 2023, 10:30:16 AM
I believe that hypothesis is flawed then. There are many interesting and different stories you could focus on that are going on in the trek universe, but at the core trek characters aren't cyberpunk

That's precisely the point.  Imagine a story that centers around Harry Mudd, Khan, and Quark as a team doing questionable jobs and avoiding Star Fleet interference.

Quote from: BadApple on December 12, 2023, 05:43:50 PM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 12, 2023, 10:30:16 AM
I believe that hypothesis is flawed then. There are many interesting and different stories you could focus on that are going on in the trek universe, but at the core trek characters aren't cyberpunk

That's precisely the point.  Imagine a story that centers around Harry Mudd, Khan, and Quark as a team doing questionable jobs and avoiding Star Fleet interference.

That would probably be the best way to make use of the Star Trek universe. Don't try emulating any of the shows, but still be able to draw on all the things that are known by everyone.