Quote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2023, 09:58:59 AM
I do think you have to include the aesthetic element of cyberpunk in any reasonable definition of it. The augmentations, the leather, the retro-futurist fashion, neon lights, etc. are all universal enough that I think it has to be considered. Really, Grognard GM's list from earlier in the thread isn't a bad one. The mistake would be in saying "you must have all these elements to be cyberpunk", rather than "the more of these you have, the more cyberpunk you are".

Except much of that aesthetic is actually just 80s edgy look.  It was a common trope in the movies, shows, and comics of the time to depict edgy characters in that look.  Hell, the neon thing was lifted straight from Miami Vice and was in anything trying to look trendy or futuristic.  If anything, trying to saddle that look onto cyberpunk holds it back rather than moves forward with it.  You could call it a sub sub genre, retro cyberpunk.  (Cyberpunk is in fact a sub genre of scifi, so...) Scifi isn't locked down to a particular look, neither are mysteries or fantasy.

Hey, if that aesthetic is something you dig, go for it.  Me, I run a cyberpunk game where the PCs are usually wearing industrial work wear.  I love a more low key and low profile type of runner.  I also like to go for the more deeper meaning, the PCs being people lost in the gaps of society and making their own way rather than the flashy live fast and die young that so many go for.  Being a disenfranchised person could lead someone to all kinds of different ways of dealing with it, going on a crime spree is only one way though the most exhaustively explored.

QuoteI ran into a similar thing on another thread, where my definition of Dark Fantasy was wildly disparate from everyone else's.

I get this.  In general, a lot of people get a specific thing they think of as a genre and block out things that don't fit their restrictions.  For me, I look at the people that are actually doing the most creation of the genre and see what they are saying.  That's why I brought up well known authors in the genre rather than just claiming to be an expert that everyone should listen too.

If you'd like, I could offer other anime recommendations for cyberpunk, I'd say Psycopass, Armitage the Third, and Akudama Drive.  Appleseed is good stuff and one of the best early anime cyberpunk titles.

Quote from: BadApple on November 22, 2023, 10:49:07 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2023, 09:58:59 AM
I do think you have to include the aesthetic element of cyberpunk in any reasonable definition of it. The augmentations, the leather, the retro-futurist fashion, neon lights, etc. are all universal enough that I think it has to be considered. Really, Grognard GM's list from earlier in the thread isn't a bad one. The mistake would be in saying "you must have all these elements to be cyberpunk", rather than "the more of these you have, the more cyberpunk you are".

Except much of that aesthetic is actually just 80s edgy look. 

Not exclusively. The Matrix look is pure 90s cringe. Ditto Hackers and Deus Ex. Not sure how you'd define the Ghost in the Shell look. I don't think a one-piece bathing suit, a leather jacket and thigh-highs was fashionable in any decade.

QuoteI ran into a similar thing on another thread, where my definition of Dark Fantasy was wildly disparate from everyone else's.

Quote from: BadApple on November 22, 2023, 10:49:07 AM
I get this.  In general, a lot of people get a specific thing they thing of as a genre and block out things that don't fit their restrictions.  For me, I look at the people that are actually doing the most creation of the genre and see what they are saying.  That's why I brought up well known authors in the genre rather than just claiming to be an expert that everyone should listen too.

If you'd like a could of other anime recommendations for cyberpunk, I'd say Psycopass, Armitage the Third, and Akudama Drive.  Appleseed is good stuff and one of the best early anime cyberpunk titles.

I tend to the stance that genre distinctions ought to be a combination of common sense, lineage (i.e., the way one work is influenced by and borrows elements from another) and general consensus, hence why I'll tend to refer back to the most oft-cited examples. Important artists can have valuable insight into a genre, but I don't find their opinions dispositive. Artists can be, and often are, completely wrong about their own work.

Always happy to get recommendations. Cheers for that.   

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 22, 2023, 12:56:59 PM
I don't think a one-piece bathing suit, a leather jacket and thigh-highs was fashionable in any decade.

You didn't see Flashdance?

Quote from: BadApple on November 22, 2023, 02:41:11 PMYou didn't see Flashdance?

That was a dude though.

Nope,...
Not likely The 'Cyberpunk' thing doesn't really fit into the "Star Trek" universe.

On one or two specific worlds it might look like it would fit - but not really.

The "Cyberpunk" thing works better in a setting like that of the show "The Expanse" and the books it is based upon.

-Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar on November 23, 2023, 10:11:31 PM
Nope,...
Not likely The 'Cyberpunk' thing doesn't really fit into the "Star Trek" universe.

On one or two specific worlds it might look like it would fit - but not really.

The "Cyberpunk" thing works better in a setting like that of the show "The Expanse" and the books it is based upon.

-Ed C.

I intentionally provoked thought and discussion with my OP.  While I disagree with you that Star Trek isn't suitable for cyberpunk play, I can respect that you have that opinion.

Honestly, The Expanse is Cyberpunk as written in the books.  A small crew refusing to fly anyone else's flag and trying to keep alive is about as cyberpunk as it gets.  There's more than just the drug fueled crime sprees that can be cyberpunk and I think The Expanse does an excellent job of showing that. 

Only if you discard or disregard what has been the central message and themes of Star Trek since the very beginning.  I guess you could use Picard as an inspiration since that series does the same thing. 

Come to think of it, Cowboy Bebop is also a great space "cyberpunk-ish" setting.

YES I KNOW IT'S NOT ACTUALLY CYBERPUNK.

....

Quote from: BadApple on November 22, 2023, 02:50:03 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on November 22, 2023, 01:42:47 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 21, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
Slightly unrelated note, but Cyberpunk is a somewhat broader genre than I think we're giving it credit for. Just running through some of the most cited examples:

Ghost in the Shell (at least Stand Alone Complex which is the version of it I'm most familiar with) and Paprika both present less dystopian futures than is standard. Akira is more concerned with government overreach than it is with corporate. Battle Angel: Alita skips the near-future element and goes full post-apocalyptic. Blade Runner and Judge Dredd both present more typical dystopias, but don't really engage with the whole internet/virtual reality side of things, while the Matrix eschews the social commentary almost entirely and focuses on the VR thing instead.

I don't really consider any of those cyberpunk.  Manga is its own separate genre.  To me cyber punk is Neuromancer, Johnny Mnemonic, Snow Crash, etc.  I don't make any claims for the majority and don't care enough to try to research it, but that's where I'm at.

As an aside, if you like Ghost in the Shell, you might want to try Appleseed.  GitS is great, but Masamune Shirow has done better.

Well, both William Gibson and Mike Pondsmith do.  Both have made public comments about it.  As I seem to remember, Pondsmith even saying that some of the supplements contain things that were direct lifts from anime, including the bulk of Maximum Metal and that's why he did a crossover book for Mekton.

Bubblegum Crisis is actually considered one of the seminal early cyberpunk works.  It was introduced in 1987 and has shaped both American and Japanese cyberpunk since, inspiring Mike Pondsmith, Neal Stephenson, and others here in the US as well as countless others around the world.

ForgottenF has it completely right, cyberpunk as a genre is not dystopian scifi.  It is scifi that explores the characters that don't conform to social norms and how both they and society are impacted by the high volumes of information computers can provide.  As I've stated before in this thread, the dystopian angle is a literary tool that is used to make the counter culture characters more understandable and palatable. 

You can't really discuss ideas if the folks involved can't come to a consensus as to what the words being used to discuss it mean.  Oh well

"Star Trek" is NOT 'Cyberpunk' - and never will be.

Bitsand pieces of what looks like "cyberpunk" may show up in "Star Trek" stories - but that does not make 'ST" into a cyberpunk thing.
There three episodes of "Deep Space Nine" where we see elements of things normally seen in 'cyberpunk' stories. They were "A Simple Investigation" (S5, Ep 17 - woman has a chip or cord socket in back of her skull), "Honor Among Thieves" (S6, Ep 15 - criminal has a data port in his head),....and possibly "Prodigal Daughter" in the 7th season. In most of those stories the world with elements of 'cyberpunk' is not a Federation world but on the frontier or on the borders.
In general the "star Trek" is too hopeful and optimistic to be a 'cyberpunk' kind of place.

- Ed C.

Geordi LaForge has a vision augmentation visor implant. That's an example from a major character. And pretty much everything about the Borg is loaded with implant tech. I see no reason why a campaign couldn't be set up to expand upon examples we have already seen and call it cyberpunk.

My reading of the OP wasn't that he wasn't trying to convert all of Star Trek to cyberpunk, or to argue that all of Star Trek is already cyberpunk, but instead was to run a campaign or a series of cyberpunk adventures in a Star Trek universe. Seems like there are lots of examples where the core elements are there, particularly if one is looking at non-Starfleet society on various planets. And those elements could interact with traditional Star Trek and make an interesting blend.

In my opinion.

As a whole and on its face, Star Trek is very anti-cyberpunk.  Coping that "it's not really a utopia" means you disagree with Gene's vision, and if you did you wouldn't be the first science fiction writer to do so- nor, if some company hired you to write that story, would you be the first to take money to bring this non-Roddenberry Star Trek vision to life.

Points in this thread about looking at the few people who aren't happy with their utopia nor a life in the military and run about the wider sector trading spices and people for incredible riches (or failing at that) do show a valid way to tell a very different story in the Star Trek universe, and several times in the various shows we have seen evidence that this is a totally valid and intended way to do things.

But I'll present you with one better.  For a cyberpunk story to hit, you need to have people who are outcasts- not served by any state, even one that purports to be their own (if there even IS a state, or is one where they are).  Can you think of a group who, under Roddenberry's Star Trek, would not be welcome in Federation space, despite being human?  A group that might be tolerated in the fringes of the Romulan Star Empire, or on the farthest area of Klingon space or even somewhere scarier? 

Enhanced humans.  Humans who use genetic engineering to live two hundred years, or be genetically smarter, or stronger.  In Roddenberry's universe, these people inevitably turned evil, and existed in small groups that had to be hunted down.  What if there was a planet of them, disorganized, and far enough away from human space that the Federation couldn't come in and sterilize them or whatever?  The descendants of those who had escaped a society that had vowed, on a moral level, to never tolerate either individuals who wanted to make a better man, or groups of better men?

That story would start cyberpunk and stay that way as long as you were on your bespoke planet, but it would become a bit more space opera if you were to go exploring (you wouldn't see many humans wherever you were). 

Anyway, that's my best shot at it.

Quote from: Venka on November 25, 2023, 10:08:20 AM
As a whole and on its face, Star Trek is very anti-cyberpunk.  Coping that "it's not really a utopia" means you disagree with Gene's vision, and if you did you wouldn't be the first science fiction writer to do so- nor, if some company hired you to write that story, would you be the first to take money to bring this non-Roddenberry Star Trek vision to life.

Points in this thread about looking at the few people who aren't happy with their utopia nor a life in the military and run about the wider sector trading spices and people for incredible riches (or failing at that) do show a valid way to tell a very different story in the Star Trek universe, and several times in the various shows we have seen evidence that this is a totally valid and intended way to do things.

But I'll present you with one better.  For a cyberpunk story to hit, you need to have people who are outcasts- not served by any state, even one that purports to be their own (if there even IS a state, or is one where they are).  Can you think of a group who, under Roddenberry's Star Trek, would not be welcome in Federation space, despite being human?  A group that might be tolerated in the fringes of the Romulan Star Empire, or on the farthest area of Klingon space or even somewhere scarier? 

Enhanced humans.  Humans who use genetic engineering to live two hundred years, or be genetically smarter, or stronger.  In Roddenberry's universe, these people inevitably turned evil, and existed in small groups that had to be hunted down.  What if there was a planet of them, disorganized, and far enough away from human space that the Federation couldn't come in and sterilize them or whatever?  The descendants of those who had escaped a society that had vowed, on a moral level, to never tolerate either individuals who wanted to make a better man, or groups of better men?

That story would start cyberpunk and stay that way as long as you were on your bespoke planet, but it would become a bit more space opera if you were to go exploring (you wouldn't see many humans wherever you were). 

Anyway, that's my best shot at it.

Survivors of the Eugenics wars would make great punks.  With their superhuman physical and mental abilities, it lends itself to taking on the kinds of small unit operations that make for a solid table experience. 

Quote from: BadApple on November 20, 2023, 06:08:59 AM
In 2372, a crack STARS unit was sent to a penatentary planet by a Star Fleet court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security prison ship to the Alpha Quadrant underground. Today, still wanted by the Federation they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The Away-Team.

I can see it, though my brain keeps on flicking to Equinox and Firefly as parallels. It doesn't take too much of a stretch to put the Federation as something that lays on top of a much more questionable (and shades of grey) society that interfaces for motivations other than "the betterment of humanity" (or whatever). Be that the Ferengi and their latinum or whatever.

The problem that you're going to run into is when people start telling you that you're missing the point if you don't view a setting in the same way that they do, which presumably is the "same" as the originators (or so they believe). Warhammer 40,000 is perhaps the gold standard for these type of shenanigans.

Either way, the fit might not be perfect, but I can certainly see how cyberpunky shenanigans could go on in the Star Trek setting.