I've seen d20 variant games that do it, but I wouldn't do it without changing around other skills.

Let's face it: spot is probably the most valuable single skill in the game. Giving you more bang for that buck in the existing environment would not be the way to go.

It is, obviously, a sacred cow, dating back to the old "thief skills" from OD&D.

True20 has it right, going with Stealth for everything to do with stealth, and Notice for everything to do with perception.

RPGPundit

Quote from: MelinglorWhat I propose is to combine them--hide and move silently into Stealth, spot and listen into Notice.

Many d20 systems do that and it works just fine.

Quote from: MelinglorWhy, oh why, oh why does D&D 3X split skills into Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen?

Because it's crying out for help.

I remember getting Redline (one of FFG's Horizon games) and seeing a few reg'lar d20 skills condensed into one, and thinking, DUH, that's only the bestest idea EVER.  And while the bestest idea EVER was actually the decision to record and sell The Human League's breakout single "Don't You Want Me?", the compression-of-bloaty-butted-d20-skills idea is a close, close second.

How good am I at noticing stuff?  How good am I at not being being seen? Will I get blown up by John Cleese? That's all I really want out of a character, and all I want out of my characters as a GM.

Fuck a duck, man, I need some sleep.  THIS IS WHY I DON'T DRINK, KIDS!

Quote from: MelinglorWhat I propose is to combine them--hide and move silently into Stealth, spot and listen into Notice.

When our group was thinking of creating R&R, this is the first thing that came to mind, and all the rules for it were written in the span of about 5 seconds.

So, how about simplifying two weapon fighting now?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Fuck a duck, man, I need some sleep.  THIS IS WHY I DON'T DRINK, KIDS!

Whaaa? Am I the only one that had pictured the good Dr. as perpetually draining bottles of Lonesome Charlie while he posts???

Quote from: blakkieWhaaa? Am I the only one that had pictured the good Dr. as perpetually draining bottles of Lonesome Charlie while he posts???

Dude, I'm such a teetotaller that I make the Womens' Christian Temperance Union look like a bunch of pantsless, barfing fratboys.

What I don't get is why it's such a problem. My fav game is True 20, so I have no problem with combining the skills, but I have had no trouble at all playing them as separate either. Why is it such a problem? My rangers and rogues have had plenty of points with which to keep the skills high enough, and we have had no trouble knowing when to use each one. Rolling the die twice (or two dice) doesn't really take any appreciable extra effort. I don't see the problem.

Quote from: SigmundRolling the die twice (or two dice) doesn't really take any appreciable extra effort. I don't see the problem.

Eh, it's not about that, to me -- it's about too many skills and feeling like I don't have enough points for 'em.

For me a lot of it is about twice the work and page space (and it isn't just "roll the dice") for little payoff.

Well, it looks like True20 blazed the trail before me. Which is great, except that I don't own it. Not that I wouldn't love to try it sometime, but right now I'm working with what I've got, which is the D&D 3.5 core books. So the solution for right now would be simply to mod those rules, rather than buy new ones.

Looks like a lot of folks like my line of thought, which is encouraging. As far as the naysayers go: Say why the nay! That is, what reasons do you believe  this mod will fuck things up? Specifically:

Quote from: SettembriniWell, there are good reasons for keeping it the way it is:

- Size modifiers for hide checks.
- double (!) armour penalty for move silently checks.
- no armour penalty for spot & listen

Those are big factors, if you handwave them, you can go right back to rolling 1D6. Which is okay too, but has niothign to do with playing 3.5.

It seems pretty extreme to say that if I condense these two sets of skills, I'm not playing 3.5 anymore. And my answer to the circumstances you raise is, as Redfox said, to use the modifiers based on the situation. You still only take an armor penalty when moving; you're just basing the check on a broader skill instead of a more specialized one. Just like a Dex mod is a bonus you can plug into any Dex-based situation, Sneak would be a bonus you can plug into any sneaking-based situation.

I thought I had made this clear in my original post; if not I apologize. I do notice in reviewing the post that in the process of explaining it I invented the word "modifire." Which is awesome.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI've seen d20 variant games that do it, but I wouldn't do it without changing around other skills.

Let's face it: spot is probably the most valuable single skill in the game. Giving you more bang for that buck in the existing environment would not be the way to go.

I've considered this, Caesar, but concluded that any imbalance created would be minimal. While the cost/benefit ratio of the skill is improved, so is the c/b of the primary opposing skill, Hide. And it's for just your concern that I'm keeping Notice cross-class; my first instinct was to open it up to anyone. Many's a time I've made a non-rogue, non-ranger character only to curse the Gods of Spot and Listen, for making me spend my precious few skill poiints at double rate and half the maximum, for the prize of being aware of my environment. I think collapsing them into two eases the burden on these chars while still keeping Notice still mostly in the realm of the more "observant" classes.

Question, though: What would you change with the other skills to make this houserule work?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineCrush spot and listen together into "notice", hide and move silently into "sneak", get rid of appraise, use rope, sleight of hand and gather information. Those're my house rules for D&D skill lists.

This is interesting. What is it about Appraise, Use rope and Slight of Hand that makes you nix them? What are the effects, and how do you compensate for their loss?

Peace,
-Joel

PS: I agree that it's a total sacred cow. Like a frikkin' vestigial organ.

Quote from: MelinglorI've considered this, Caesar, but concluded that any imbalance created would be minimal. While the cost/benefit ratio of the skill is improved, so is the c/b of the primary opposing skill, Hide. And it's for just your concern that I'm keeping Notice cross-class; my first instinct was to open it up to anyone. Many's a time I've made a non-rogue, non-ranger character only to curse the Gods of Spot and Listen, for making me spend my precious few skill poiints at double rate and half the maximum, for the prize of being aware of my environment. I think collapsing them into two eases the burden on these chars while still keeping Notice still mostly in the realm of the more "observant" classes.

I think those are good points.  Moreover, I'd see it less as unbalancing Spot to make it more useful, but more like nixing useless skills so that every skill is of awesome utility.

I'd probably trim still further.

You're perfectly hidden, but step on a twig. SNAP!

You can see them perfectly, but can you hear them over the rumble of the engine?

You can hear someone accidently kick an empty glass bottle, but can you see them in the overgrown alleyway?

You can hear voices, but where in the hell are they coming from?

Seriously, cramming them together may be fine for reducing the amount of rolls and skills out there, but they honestly belong in seperate categories.

Sight != Sound
Hidden != Silent
Silent != Hidden
Sound != Sight

Quote from: T-WillardSeriously, cramming them together may be fine for reducing the amount of rolls and skills out there, but they honestly belong in seperate categories.

Gaming isn't a religion, and there are no absolute truths.

Quote from: MelinglorThis is interesting. What is it about Appraise, Use rope and Slight of Hand that makes you nix them? What are the effects, and how do you compensate for their loss?

They don't have effects, unless the DM is really being a skill-nazi for whatever reason. I've never seen anyone actually use Appraise, while Use Rope and Sleight of Hand have such marginal uses that they come up a handful of times a campaign.

They can also be better represented by other skills that cover more broad areas of expertise, specifically the "profession" skills. Profession (Mountebank) or (Gambler) cover sleight of hand, while Use Rope can just be Profession (Sailor). The parts of Use Rope that deal with climbing (will this knot hold as we climb down the rope?) should be part of the Climb skill anyhow.