Quote from: flyingmiceApparently. Actually I lump Black History in with History and pay attention to it 12 months a year. I don't believe in Separate but Equal treatment, but then that's just me personally. The Government in its infinite wisdom hath decreed that Black History is indeed Separate, but only 1/12 as important as other history. Some History is thus more Equal than others.



-clash

It's interesting that apparently black folks don't even rate a month with a normal number of days.

One of the guys over at Evil Hat Games, Rob Donoghue, replied to my Blog post with the following:

The authors are, to be frank, huge fans of Mister Baugh, and while we hadn't planned on any supplements, we also hadn't anticipated be approached by anyone, let alone Bruce Baugh, saying "I'd like to write a supplement for your game." So we said yes. Honestly, if Bruce wants to write a supplement about the hairstyles of the time, I'm still going to trust that it will be awesome, so just to split that issue off from the subject matter: No, we didn't expect any supplements but this is an OK way to be wrong, at least so far as we're concerned.

As to the subject matter, well, man, I'd be absolutely naive if I didn't expect that some people would view it in the way you do. S'cool. Hell, I'll go one better on the cynicism. This is a sufficiently controversial topic that it's generated a decent sales spike for us now, and probably will again when its released. Controversy is like a gift from heaven for the small press, and it's going to mean more money in our pockets in terms of core books sold and sales on the supplement when it comes out. If this were purely a cynical ploy to take advantage of a hot button issue, that would be a pretty smart plan.

The good news is, we're not that smart. And I dig that this is not going to be a supplement for everyone. Hell, I embrace it - I love SOTC to death, but my first response to anyone who says "I don't like these things, but people say SOTC is cool, sell me on it" is that they should spend the money on a game they'd actually like. Same rule is in effect.

But that said, I'm just going to state that this is going to be a game supplement, not a screed or tract or big-s-Statement. We're not in this to enlighten anyone, we're in it because we think there's some good play to be had in it. If this was purely for political purposes, there are many better venues for that.

The original post is here:
https://www2.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=14114860&postID=7734265443286518444

Quote from: BalbinusShouldn't?

I may be a godless commie pinko liberal, but I'm a free market godless commie pinko liberal.

If someone is interested in writing it, and others are interested in buying it, then that is enough justification.

But sure, fuck it, the very writing of a book about minority characters is in and of itself offensive even if one has no intention of buying or using it.  Naturally.

Its "shouldn't" in the sense that its a monumentally stupid project, not in the sense that it should be censored or something.

As to the "very writing" of the book, its pretty fucking patronizing to minorities, for certain. And made moreso by the fact that its a portly bearded nerdy white guy who's writing it. And even moreso beyond that, that the real motive behind writing it is hatred for mainstream gamers and a desire to appear hip and pretentious, rather than any kind of sincere concern for the "plight" of anyone.  So yeah, I'd say its offensive as all fuck.

RPGPundit

Shit, I was hoping my involvement in this discussion was over and then JimBob goes and pays me a compliment. Cheeky fella. BTW JimBob, with all the analysis that you have done so far, I'm surprised you excluded yourself from the list of folks who may be suitable for this project.

I didn't think modesty was your thing. Cheeky fella. Being open minded is always a good thing (and I'm sure you have some of that ), but I think what is more important and would serve this subject matter better would be the ability to capture folks interest.

And frankly RPG-wise you do that pretty well. Your Traveller thread is a fine example of your ability to engage folks with your ideas. I'll put this show of modesty down to the very British, talented amateur facade you're trying to cultivate. As I said, cheeky Aussie fella.

Now, speaking as a minority and only for myself, I don't find this would be supplement offensive. But nice try though - by some folks - thinking that minorities should find it offensive. It's great, when people try to attach outrage on us. And yeah, I'm sure some of us would find it offensive, but I'll not speak for all of us, only myself.

Here's the thing though. This supplement should be more like Wild Wild West in tone rather than Glory. Glory is great, but it would not serve the genre. In the same way, The Wedding Banquet has a more appropriate tone than BrokeBack Mountain when it comes to sexuality. Sure I'm mixing up genres here, but my point is, even if we are engaging in stereotypes, the writers of this book IMO should infuse these minority stereotypes with the same amount of compassion and credibilty as their white counterparts. So more Guess Who than Jungle Fever  - Can you dig what I'm trying to say?

Research for a project like this ? Sure, by all means draw inspiration from history and context and than jazz up any interesting bits you find. It's not about accuracy, it's about making these types of characters as much fun to play as their white male counterparts. If it's all about stereotypes, than make them all equal, credible and a hell of a lot of fun to play. The presence of minorities should not be an excuse to change the spirit of the game, their presence should be an opportunity to enrich and celebrate the genre.

I've rambled long enough, but this is my take on the whole issue.

Regards,
David R

I thought The Evil DM was half-Mexican.  DM, you're black?

No difference either way obviously, I'm just trying to figure it out... :idunno:

Quote from: David RIt's great, when people try to attach outrage on us. And yeah, I'm sure some of us would find it offensive, but I'll not speak for all of us, only myself.

But isn't that part of problem with the whole idea that there is one authentic black, female, gay, Chinese, or whatever perspective and one authentic way in which society is going to react to them.  The truth was and is far more complicated than that, and not always perfect or politically correct.

Quote from: John MorrowBut isn't that part of problem with the whole idea that there is one authentic black, female, gay, Chinese, or whatever perspective and one authentic way in which society is going to react to them.  The truth was and is far more complicated than that, and not always perfect or politically correct.

Sure, which is why the last part of the sentence you quoted is so important. If I'm reading you correctly, that is.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I thought The Evil DM was half-Mexican.  DM, you're black?

No difference either way obviously, I'm just trying to figure it out... :idunno:

I'm Mexican, compadre. I was the only D&D playing Van Halen fan in my Barrio.

Ian assumed I was black because of my comment.  we talked it over via PM. It's all good. we both have opinions that differ but several real life similarities.  But as before, to not derail the thread we took it outside.

Quote from: David RBTW JimBob, with all the analysis that you have done so far, I'm surprised you excluded yourself from the list of folks who may be suitable for this project.

Because I am somewhat open-minded, but I am also prejudiced. Mostly, against Americans - and whatever else pulp is or isn't, it's basically American. So it's not a project I could do well.

Quote from: David RI didn't think modesty was your thing.

It's not modesty, it's a realistic appreciation of my attitudes and abilities.

Quote from: David RI think what is more important and would serve this subject matter better would be the ability to capture folks interest.

And frankly RPG-wise you do that pretty well. Your Traveller thread is a fine example of your ability to engage folks with your ideas.

Sometimes one comes off. I put a lot of ideas out there, you're only remembering the one or two that went off. I toss out ideas the way Americans fight wars - put enough rounds downrange, you're bound to hit something eventually. Nobody remembers the fizzles

Quote from: David RNow, speaking as a minority and only for myself, I don't find this would be supplement offensive. But nice try though - by some folks - thinking that minorities should find it offensive.

I didn't think any particular groups addressed by the book would be offended by it. I figured they'd probably just snicker quietly and put it back on the shelf. Some gay gamer (for example) doesn't need a game supplement to tell him how to roleplay gays; the target audience for such a d20 101 Gays would be straight people. Likewise, with New Horizons. I didn't imagine any of the groups addressed would be offended, as it's just another in a long line of lame crap thrown their way.

I think the rest was very interesting advice. You should go post on Baugh's blog and tell him!

Quote from: JimBobOzI didn't think any particular groups addressed by the book would be offended by it.

I wasn't refering to you. I was refering to the Pundit's comment that the book was patronizing to minorities.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI wasn't refering to you. I was refering to the Pundit's comment that the book was patronizing to minorities.

Well, the basic concept seems patronising. What the book will be like, like I said, I assume it'll be just another part of the prejudiced scenery people see every day - nothing stand-out good or bad.

SIDEBAR-TANGENT TO THREAD:

   Incidentally, it's interesting to contrast the tone of this thread and forum with another. Over on sjgames forum, someone suggested a version of the great and crazy classic, Red Dawn - but with Mexicans instead of commies. Got a bad taste in your mouth yet? Maybe not, but you will if you read this. There's a guy there seriously suggesting that Mexico is planning to invade the USA.

The politics of the regulars at SJGames are a bit like your stereotyical mad survivalist with his bunker full of guns - only with less intelligent preparation.

So what I get is that the atmosphere of therpgsite is pretty blokey, and definitely not friendly to women or gays. But at least it's not violently racist. Well, except for one loon we keep around for some reason...

Which means we can discuss a product like this New Horizons fairly rationally. What I feel here is that people may say, "bullshit! Are you crazy?!" to each-other, but actually there's respect - people are being taken seriously, there's no blanket smug dismissals. I'm speaking in terms of the general vibe of the place, of course - there are definitely exceptions. I'm expressing it badly, I think...
Anyway, just something which occurred to me. Carry on dissing and praising the book to come

Quote from: The Evil DMI'm Mexican, compadre. I was the only D&D playing Van Halen fan in my Barrio.

¡Ora, pues!  As I am half-Mexican, I propose that we invade these gringos' board and steal their jobs!

Or, uh...we could...just, like, post stuff.  You know, whatever.

Does anyone know of any examples of "minorities" in Pulp - movies, books ? So, this discussion can move from an "is this a good idea" to "hey, this might actually sound interesting" discussion.

Edit: Don't know if this is a good example, but my take would be, expanding the role of Kato from the Green Hornet. Don't know about you folks, but Bruce Lee in an RPG Pulp Supers setting would indeed rock.

Regards,
David R

Overall I'm just gonna agree with Stuart on this one.  I don't think this supplement is necessary or interesting...  though the idea of a "world tour of pulp-ready cultural adventure ideas" would rock.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo what I get is that the atmosphere of therpgsite is pretty blokey, and definitely not friendly to women or gays. But at least it's not violently racist. Well, except for one loon we keep around for some reason...

People have been pretty friendly to me, here.  Honestly.  Here.  Friendly.

The only unfriendly-against-homosexuals vibe I've gotten here has been focused pretty tightly on Curt from rpg.net.  Which is admittedly off-putting, but not unexpected.

Compared to, oh say any given videogaming community online, this place is practically a gay-pride parade.